Agency Power Valve Exhaust and Race Headers On Our Mercedes C63 AMG
03-03-2011, 04:21 PM
#26
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Didn't powerchip have a deal with cargraphic or supersprint or whoever. Then powerchip tried suing RNZ because he was selling 'knock-offs' because they had a deal with the other header company. Maybe someone can fill in the holes from my story...but yea that header design has been out for at least a year probably
03-03-2011, 05:59 PM
#27
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I honestly don't know.
I'm sure everyone will be please with the numbers it puts down, price and the final product. Just wait...
Didn't powerchip have a deal with cargraphic or supersprint or whoever. Then powerchip tried suing RNZ because he was selling 'knock-offs' because they had a deal with the other header company. Maybe someone can fill in the holes from my story...but yea that header design has been out for at least a year probably
I'm sure everyone will be please with the numbers it puts down, price and the final product. Just wait...
03-03-2011, 06:30 PM
#28
03-10-2011, 04:10 PM
#35
You guys are getting into an arguement over syntax & symantics at this point. Both can be classified as long tubes since they both have a true 4-1 collector design and the final exit opening is parallel to the ground and it deletes the primary cats.
A good example of a midpipe header is the Kleemann style headers, which were just an elongated shorty that was just long enough to delete the primaries and came with a short flanged extension pipe to be welded in place. Those style mid-tube headers still merge in the initial portion of the mid pipes (where its usually still 45 degrees in relation to the ground).
Shorties obviously bolt on directly and require zero modification (such as our headers).
Either way, arguing based on a technicality is a complete waste of time. They are good quality headers and can easily be classified as longtubes by most standards. As long as the price is low enough, they should sell well. Go easy on vivid ... they are just trying to provide a good product at a decent price (hopefully).
2 cents,
~AMS~
A good example of a midpipe header is the Kleemann style headers, which were just an elongated shorty that was just long enough to delete the primaries and came with a short flanged extension pipe to be welded in place. Those style mid-tube headers still merge in the initial portion of the mid pipes (where its usually still 45 degrees in relation to the ground).
Shorties obviously bolt on directly and require zero modification (such as our headers).
Either way, arguing based on a technicality is a complete waste of time. They are good quality headers and can easily be classified as longtubes by most standards. As long as the price is low enough, they should sell well. Go easy on vivid ... they are just trying to provide a good product at a decent price (hopefully).
2 cents,
~AMS~
Last edited by AMS Performance; 03-10-2011 at 04:15 PM.
03-10-2011, 04:32 PM
#36
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Thread Starter
You guys are getting into an arguement over syntax & symantics at this point. Both can be classified as long tubes since they both have a true 4-1 collector design and the final exit opening is parallel to the ground and it deletes the primary cats.
A good example of a midpipe header is the Kleemann style headers, which were just an elongated shorty that was just long enough to delete the primaries and came with a short flanged extension pipe to be welded in place. Those style mid-tube headers still merge in the initial portion of the mid pipes (where its usually still 45 degrees in relation to the ground).
Shorties obviously bolt on directly and require zero modification (such as our headers).
Either way, arguing based on a technicality is a complete waste of time. They are good quality headers and can easily be classified as longtubes by most standards. As long as the price is low enough, they should sell well. Go easy on vivid ... they are just trying to provide a good product at a decent price (hopefully).
2 cents,
~AMS~
A good example of a midpipe header is the Kleemann style headers, which were just an elongated shorty that was just long enough to delete the primaries and came with a short flanged extension pipe to be welded in place. Those style mid-tube headers still merge in the initial portion of the mid pipes (where its usually still 45 degrees in relation to the ground).
Shorties obviously bolt on directly and require zero modification (such as our headers).
Either way, arguing based on a technicality is a complete waste of time. They are good quality headers and can easily be classified as longtubes by most standards. As long as the price is low enough, they should sell well. Go easy on vivid ... they are just trying to provide a good product at a decent price (hopefully).
2 cents,
~AMS~
We are offering a great product for a great price!
03-10-2011, 04:47 PM
#37
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Lots of dialog on header designs here -> Header Types Defined/Discussed + Photos of all C63 Headers and Manifolds
Would happily continue our conversation there so we don't clutter up Vivid's thread.
03-18-2011, 05:36 AM
#41
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I'm not stating with certainty that the AP headers aren't a proprietary, clean-sheet AP design... but my opinion is that it'd take one hell of a coincidence for the headers to look exactly like Cargraphic's (and all Cargraphic-rep versions), which incidentally have been out for quite awhile... and these are just now being released.
Allegedly, AP has a long history of designing eerily similar products to other firms' offerings. If you're interested, type "agency power knock off" into Google... you don't even have to click the links, you can just read 'em off the search query results.
Allegedly, AP has a long history of designing eerily similar products to other firms' offerings. If you're interested, type "agency power knock off" into Google... you don't even have to click the links, you can just read 'em off the search query results.
03-18-2011, 11:32 AM
#42
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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03-18-2011, 11:54 AM
#43
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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I'm not stating with certainty that the AP headers aren't a proprietary, clean-sheet AP design... but my opinion is that it'd take one hell of a coincidence for the headers to look exactly like Cargraphic's (and all Cargraphic-rep versions), which incidentally have been out for quite awhile... and these are just now being released.
Allegedly, AP has a long history of designing eerily similar products to other firms' offerings. If you're interested, type "agency power knock off" into Google... you don't even have to click the links, you can just read 'em off the search query results.
Allegedly, AP has a long history of designing eerily similar products to other firms' offerings. If you're interested, type "agency power knock off" into Google... you don't even have to click the links, you can just read 'em off the search query results.
About the "agency power knock off", I googled it to see what I would find and nothing came up but evo and wrx/sti forums. If you look at the parts for these cars EVERYTHING looks the same.
03-18-2011, 05:27 PM
#44
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That said, looking at the Super Moderator's post #19, comparing Cargraphic's right-hand header (the lower one pictured), with your pictured right-hand-header test model... other than the photos being at slightly different angles, it doesn't just look similar; it looks identical - everything about it. Flanges and flange design, weld placements, tube lengths, bend placements, etc.
Honestly, it sure looks like one of two things is happening here: either AP is sourcing Cargraphic-replica headers and slapping the AP logo on them, or AP jigged up a set of Cargraphic headers to knock them off. There's simply no way that both of you wound up with an identical design implementation, with no prior knowledge of each other's offering. Since theirs came first, by a fairly wide margin, well... I can see how a few eyebrows have raised.
Cargraphic and "Cargraphic-replica" C63 headers are known to be produced out of an Asian fabricator (Tiawanese, AFAIK). Where do your "test" and production headers hail from?
About the "agency power knock off", I googled it to see what I would find and nothing came up but evo and wrx/sti forums. If you look at the parts for these cars EVERYTHING looks the same.
My comments aren't intended as a dig at your product(s). Many consumers don't care - if they can get a quality product at a low price, that's all that matters. Some argue that, in the big picture, knock offs are bad because business is stolen from the firms who innovate - but each can assess his own value/worth to those ideals.
Best of luck with your new offering.
Last edited by c32AMG-DTM; 03-18-2011 at 10:19 PM.
03-18-2011, 05:34 PM
#45
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VividRacing,
Forgot to mention - any news worth sharing about your "Power Valve" Exhaust? I presume you're aware that the Cargraphic system includes an optional, remote-controlled exhaust flap? Perhaps just a coincidence.
http://www.cargraphic.de/index.php?/...95/&language=2
Forgot to mention - any news worth sharing about your "Power Valve" Exhaust? I presume you're aware that the Cargraphic system includes an optional, remote-controlled exhaust flap? Perhaps just a coincidence.
http://www.cargraphic.de/index.php?/...95/&language=2
03-19-2011, 12:07 AM
#46
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Guys,
Let me straight some up in case you need clarification. Vividracing don't have to copy no one's design, as I mentioned in other topics I have been customers of them for at least 8 years and they always came up with their own full exhaust designs for Subarus, BMW, Mitsubishis and other cars. They are legit and they don't need to copy no one's design. In fact, they built in the USA.
Let me reminds you that they work hand on hand with Agency power which builts custom exhaust for just about any car. Last but not least, Vividracing has so many back to back finished products (fully built race cars) and endorsement from car magazines and nation car shows that there is no point of trying to argue if the design is theirs, I am telling you it is. They design, sell, install, dyno test, tune ,drive carsand compete in events. They don't just built parts, they test them on their own cars..
I personally have been in a few of their sponsored car shows in Firebird International raceway, they build their stuff with high standrds of quality and made in the USA. You need to NOT worry about them copying. my .2c
Let me straight some up in case you need clarification. Vividracing don't have to copy no one's design, as I mentioned in other topics I have been customers of them for at least 8 years and they always came up with their own full exhaust designs for Subarus, BMW, Mitsubishis and other cars. They are legit and they don't need to copy no one's design. In fact, they built in the USA.
Let me reminds you that they work hand on hand with Agency power which builts custom exhaust for just about any car. Last but not least, Vividracing has so many back to back finished products (fully built race cars) and endorsement from car magazines and nation car shows that there is no point of trying to argue if the design is theirs, I am telling you it is. They design, sell, install, dyno test, tune ,drive carsand compete in events. They don't just built parts, they test them on their own cars..
I personally have been in a few of their sponsored car shows in Firebird International raceway, they build their stuff with high standrds of quality and made in the USA. You need to NOT worry about them copying. my .2c
Last edited by C63newdude; 03-19-2011 at 12:11 AM.
03-19-2011, 12:18 AM
#47
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We designed the header late, it wasn't any surprise that looked similar to another header design. Our fabricator felt it would be the best design to make power and keep cost down. Our header is cheaper and quality is the same if not better than the Cargraphic's.
About the "agency power knock off", I googled it to see what I would find and nothing came up but evo and wrx/sti forums. If you look at the parts for these cars EVERYTHING looks the same.
About the "agency power knock off", I googled it to see what I would find and nothing came up but evo and wrx/sti forums. If you look at the parts for these cars EVERYTHING looks the same.
Last edited by C63newdude; 03-19-2011 at 02:15 PM.
03-19-2011, 07:59 AM
#48
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Guys,
Let me straight some up in case you need clarification. Vividracing don't have to copy no one's design, as I mentioned in other topics I have been customers of them for at least 8 years and they always came up with their own full exhaust designs for Subarus, BMW, Mitsubishis and other cars. They are legit and they don't need to copy no one's design. In fact, they built in the USA.
Let me straight some up in case you need clarification. Vividracing don't have to copy no one's design, as I mentioned in other topics I have been customers of them for at least 8 years and they always came up with their own full exhaust designs for Subarus, BMW, Mitsubishis and other cars. They are legit and they don't need to copy no one's design. In fact, they built in the USA.
Our exhaust prototypes are then shipped overseas to be made in large quantity. The reason for this is because of the quality, finish, and cost to produce the item overseas is far better then here in the USA. The stainless steel TIG welding is all robotic and all our exhaust systems feature completely polished piping. We have even introduced titanium mufflers and tips to certain vehicles. The Agency Power exhaust line is the only product that is not manufactured in the USA.
So, as far as this thread's topic (header/exhaust), you're incorrect.
Let me reminds you that they work hand on hand with Agency power which builts custom exhaust for just about any car. Last but not least, Vividracing has so many back to back finished products (fully built race cars) and endorsement from car magazines and nation car shows that there is no point of trying to argue if the design is theirs, I am telling you it is.
As for the bolded section above... I suspect that your noble and noteworthy allegiance to all-things-Vivid may be blinding you to the obvious. Did you even look at the photos? Better yet, if you visit Superlubricity's excellent header-compilation thread... scroll through at your leisure, and compare photos of header designs. MHP, MBH, evosport, Cargraphic, Kleemann, Gintani, et al. Not one of those clean-sheet design offerings looks like a carbon copy of another. Yet all are header solutions for the exact same make/model.
While that doesn't definitively offer any conclusions here - IMHO, it strongly suggests one of two very likely scenarios (mentioned earlier). In fact, given that the AP C63 headers/exhausts come from overseas, I think the most-likely scenario is pretty clear - these are probably sourced from the same build house fabricating Cargraphic replicas.
Given the subject at hand, I find it intriguing that you posted the following, in the original Cargraphic thread:
Thanks for the info. It might sound like a deal at first but then you have to add other factors:
1) Euro to $ conversion (1.25)
2) Tax (19%)
3) Shipping cost
You are talking close to $2700 by the time they arrive to your door. The best way to go would be a copy from the Asian market. Things are way cheaper there and they can almost clone anything. For one time in my life I am wishing to see a Chinese company to offer a set of cheap headers.
1) Euro to $ conversion (1.25)
2) Tax (19%)
3) Shipping cost
You are talking close to $2700 by the time they arrive to your door. The best way to go would be a copy from the Asian market. Things are way cheaper there and they can almost clone anything. For one time in my life I am wishing to see a Chinese company to offer a set of cheap headers.
03-19-2011, 02:21 PM
#49
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^^ Thanks for elaborating, I sensed on page one that their design was questioned. Given the sales volume and size of this company and their achievements I personally don't question their design. Most of the stuff that you posted I liked. It is all good my friend. 
03-19-2011, 07:07 PM
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The black tips look exactly like those on the Innotech system here -> https://mbworld.org/forums/4551882-post28.html
