Factory Warranty Voided
03-04-2011, 08:34 AM
#76
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c200k
Wow - must've touched a nerve; my (sincere) apologies. I reread my analogy, looking for the flawed logic. I'm sorry, but I don't see it. You are taking the simple analogy and spinning it into something it's not. Paraphrasing:
Customer tunes vehicle's engine and it blows up. Customer defrauds MBUSA into replacing the engine. Customer rationalizes it as "MBUSA defrauds customers who have legitimate claims, so I'm just leveling the playing field a bit."
My position: regardless of how ethically MBUSA handles customer issues, it is morally wrong to submit a fraudulent warranty claim. Period; no rationalization makes it okay. If one feels that MBUSA has an unacceptable track record of defrauding their customer base with denied warranty coverage on repairs that should've been covered - one should consider taking his business elsewhere, where customers are treated appropriately (Audi/BMW/et. al.).
Customer does their banking at ABC Bank in town. Huge story unfolds over ABC's unsavory business practices. Customer decides it's okay to rob ABC bank for their own personal gain, since ABC treats some of their customers poorly.
My position: regardless of how ethically ABC handles customer issues, it is morally wrong to rob a bank. Period; no rationalization makes it okay. If one feels that ABC unethically preys on their customers, one should consider taking his banking business elsewhere, where customers are treated appropriately (XYZ Bank, et. al.).
As for your diatribe on banking - how does predatory lending wind up "killing millions of people worldwide." Huh? Hurt their credit score... okay, I see that. Make it difficult for them to obtain loans in the future... yes. Kill them? I can't connect those dots, unless you're being melodramatic. I've yet to see charges brought against BAC for mass murder... one would expect that to be frontpage news. Given the human-rights concerns and people who are literally being killed in geopolitical hotspots throughout the world, I'd suggest it's poor form to make light of killing.
Final thought - I love shopping at Walmart (although I prefer Target), and have no problem suggesting friends and relatives do likewise.
Customer tunes vehicle's engine and it blows up. Customer defrauds MBUSA into replacing the engine. Customer rationalizes it as "MBUSA defrauds customers who have legitimate claims, so I'm just leveling the playing field a bit."
My position: regardless of how ethically MBUSA handles customer issues, it is morally wrong to submit a fraudulent warranty claim. Period; no rationalization makes it okay. If one feels that MBUSA has an unacceptable track record of defrauding their customer base with denied warranty coverage on repairs that should've been covered - one should consider taking his business elsewhere, where customers are treated appropriately (Audi/BMW/et. al.).
Customer does their banking at ABC Bank in town. Huge story unfolds over ABC's unsavory business practices. Customer decides it's okay to rob ABC bank for their own personal gain, since ABC treats some of their customers poorly.
My position: regardless of how ethically ABC handles customer issues, it is morally wrong to rob a bank. Period; no rationalization makes it okay. If one feels that ABC unethically preys on their customers, one should consider taking his banking business elsewhere, where customers are treated appropriately (XYZ Bank, et. al.).
As for your diatribe on banking - how does predatory lending wind up "killing millions of people worldwide." Huh? Hurt their credit score... okay, I see that. Make it difficult for them to obtain loans in the future... yes. Kill them? I can't connect those dots, unless you're being melodramatic. I've yet to see charges brought against BAC for mass murder... one would expect that to be frontpage news. Given the human-rights concerns and people who are literally being killed in geopolitical hotspots throughout the world, I'd suggest it's poor form to make light of killing.
Final thought - I love shopping at Walmart (although I prefer Target), and have no problem suggesting friends and relatives do likewise.
What I called out was how you minimized a situation that has lead to deaths around the world, suicides, and now, revolutions and anarchy. You are driving a toy and investing yourself into an optional luxury item, but now you minimize a situation that you're insulated from and dumbing it down to explain to people, using flawed logic, how it's teh same thing lololorz as a hobby? Pathetic and that is the display of your moral compass.
And your response about the doubts of "deaths of people worldwide" shows your utter lack of understanding of how the world works outside of your town. It shows that you are simply unable to fathom world events outside of your little, petty, selfish sphere.
Last edited by sknight; 03-04-2011 at 09:05 AM.
03-04-2011, 08:35 AM
#77
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
General comment from SEMA on after market performance parts and manufacturers warranty.
Denial of warranty on any product is delineated in the Magnuson-Moss Act which is Federal Law:
"The vehicle manufacturer is not allowed to void the vehicle warranty just because aftermarket equipment is installed on the vehicle. This protection for consumers is the result of a parts self-certification program developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA).
"Under the program, if a parts maker completes the EPA process of self-certifying its parts, the vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty even if the certified part has failed and is directly responsible for the warranty claim. In cases where such a failed aftermarket part is responsible for a warranty claim, the manufacturer must arrange a settlement with the part manufacturer, but the new vehicle warrant is not void under the law.
"If the failure to honor a claim involves the new-vehicle warranty, and it appears that the manufacturer is improperly denying a claim, the incident should be reported to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC is responsible for monitoring compliance with the warranty law; the agency's telephone number is (202)326-3128."
For more information see SEMA's website at www.sema.org.
Also the thought of using a spare ECU may not work as aren't ECU's coded to VIN number?
Denial of warranty on any product is delineated in the Magnuson-Moss Act which is Federal Law:
"The vehicle manufacturer is not allowed to void the vehicle warranty just because aftermarket equipment is installed on the vehicle. This protection for consumers is the result of a parts self-certification program developed by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and the Specialty Equipment Market Association (SEMA).
"Under the program, if a parts maker completes the EPA process of self-certifying its parts, the vehicle manufacturer cannot void the warranty even if the certified part has failed and is directly responsible for the warranty claim. In cases where such a failed aftermarket part is responsible for a warranty claim, the manufacturer must arrange a settlement with the part manufacturer, but the new vehicle warrant is not void under the law.
"If the failure to honor a claim involves the new-vehicle warranty, and it appears that the manufacturer is improperly denying a claim, the incident should be reported to the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). The FTC is responsible for monitoring compliance with the warranty law; the agency's telephone number is (202)326-3128."
For more information see SEMA's website at www.sema.org.
Also the thought of using a spare ECU may not work as aren't ECU's coded to VIN number?
03-04-2011, 10:02 AM
#79
MBWorld Fanatic!
I obviously don't get the way a few of you think...at least C32AMG-DTM gets it and verbalized what I'm writing below.
The C63 is a $65-$70,000 vehicle. MBZ's warranty protects all of us from failures on a stock car.
I'm a little shocked that some of you are suggesting attempting to trick, lie to and deceive Mercedes Benz after having the ECU flashed. Suggesting 2nd ECUs, re-flashes back to stock, etc is immature grade-school crap. This is what Civic Type R owners do, not MB owners with $70k cars.
I see where you are coming from VCA but I disagree in part. Failures happen and a tune only is not that much of an upgrade to cause catastrophic engine failure. The reason for the "deception" is not to trick MB its to avoid having MB use the tune as an excuse to void your warranty when fixing something that had nothing to do with the tune in the first place. Putting the stock flash back into the car just removes that argument from MB.
There's a longtime understanding in the tuner crowd, at least among those with a conscience...when you mod, the car is no longer under warranty. Been like this forever. ECU flash or anything else, man up and accept that you must pay to play. If your engine blows with a tune, that's your fault. The burden of proof would be on YOU to prove the tune didn't cause the failure, why should MBZ have to prove otherwise when their policy is to NOT warrant any modified cars? MB doesn't warranty altered vehicles, nor should they have to. They have no control over what any tune does to the fuel mixture, operating temps, etc...why should they warrant an engine that fails w/a tune?
So I tuned my car and I should walk into MB dealership and ask them to tear up my warranty? Sure, ill go right after you. 
Do you understand how unethical, fraudulent and childish it is to plan to deceive MBZ in the event of an engine failure after a ECU flash? Yep, it would be an expensive repair. Someone has to pay for it--if Mercedes pays for enough of these via warranty repair, we all get screwed via higher vehicle prices down the line. You're sticking it to the company that made this awesome car for us to enjoy.
If a blown engine repair is too much for you to afford, then you can't afford to mod IMO. Some C63 owners can hardly afford the car in the first place, so modding should be out of the question if they are that concerned with repair bills.
Sorry but the idea of sticking it to MBZ for your modification just bothers me. Doesn't matter whether engines have blown from ECU flashes or not...if one DOES, are you prepared to pay for it? I'm not trying to lecture but rather make some of you think about the ethics of what you're suggesting.
Again, its not sticking it to them VCA. I don't want to go in for a Service A and have some service rep come out and say "Your warranty is voided because you tuned your car" even though there is nothing wrong with it.
Flame suit on.
The C63 is a $65-$70,000 vehicle. MBZ's warranty protects all of us from failures on a stock car.
I'm a little shocked that some of you are suggesting attempting to trick, lie to and deceive Mercedes Benz after having the ECU flashed. Suggesting 2nd ECUs, re-flashes back to stock, etc is immature grade-school crap. This is what Civic Type R owners do, not MB owners with $70k cars.
I see where you are coming from VCA but I disagree in part. Failures happen and a tune only is not that much of an upgrade to cause catastrophic engine failure. The reason for the "deception" is not to trick MB its to avoid having MB use the tune as an excuse to void your warranty when fixing something that had nothing to do with the tune in the first place. Putting the stock flash back into the car just removes that argument from MB.
There's a longtime understanding in the tuner crowd, at least among those with a conscience...when you mod, the car is no longer under warranty. Been like this forever. ECU flash or anything else, man up and accept that you must pay to play. If your engine blows with a tune, that's your fault. The burden of proof would be on YOU to prove the tune didn't cause the failure, why should MBZ have to prove otherwise when their policy is to NOT warrant any modified cars? MB doesn't warranty altered vehicles, nor should they have to. They have no control over what any tune does to the fuel mixture, operating temps, etc...why should they warrant an engine that fails w/a tune?
So I tuned my car and I should walk into MB dealership and ask them to tear up my warranty? Sure, ill go right after you. Do you understand how unethical, fraudulent and childish it is to plan to deceive MBZ in the event of an engine failure after a ECU flash? Yep, it would be an expensive repair. Someone has to pay for it--if Mercedes pays for enough of these via warranty repair, we all get screwed via higher vehicle prices down the line. You're sticking it to the company that made this awesome car for us to enjoy.
If a blown engine repair is too much for you to afford, then you can't afford to mod IMO. Some C63 owners can hardly afford the car in the first place, so modding should be out of the question if they are that concerned with repair bills.
Sorry but the idea of sticking it to MBZ for your modification just bothers me. Doesn't matter whether engines have blown from ECU flashes or not...if one DOES, are you prepared to pay for it? I'm not trying to lecture but rather make some of you think about the ethics of what you're suggesting.
Again, its not sticking it to them VCA. I don't want to go in for a Service A and have some service rep come out and say "Your warranty is voided because you tuned your car" even though there is nothing wrong with it.
Flame suit on.
Im with Mike on this one. Enjoy the thread... this is getting way to serious in here.
Last edited by propain; 03-04-2011 at 10:05 AM.
03-04-2011, 10:31 AM
#80
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2] MB can already flash the ECU via the ODBII port using SDS. I don't think there's a way for a tuner to do this without physically modifying the ECU.
3] What are the chances that MB notices a mod'ded ECU? If the SDS diag tree says check the ECU, SDS is going to note a difference between what FDOK says is SCN coded to the car and what's really on it. I doubt that if you reflashed to stock they would go and physically inspect the ECU, unless the root of the diag tree said to replace the ECU.
3] What are the chances that MB notices a mod'ded ECU? If the SDS diag tree says check the ECU, SDS is going to note a difference between what FDOK says is SCN coded to the car and what's really on it. I doubt that if you reflashed to stock they would go and physically inspect the ECU, unless the root of the diag tree said to replace the ECU.
Response to 3: Well said.
03-04-2011, 12:45 PM
#81
I obviously don't get the way a few of you think...at least C32AMG-DTM gets it and verbalized what I'm writing below.
The C63 is a $65-$70,000 vehicle. MBZ's warranty protects all of us from failures on a stock car.
I'm a little shocked that some of you are suggesting attempting to trick, lie to and deceive Mercedes Benz after having the ECU flashed. Suggesting 2nd ECUs, re-flashes back to stock, etc is immature grade-school crap. This is what Civic Type R owners do, not MB owners with $70k cars.
There's a longtime understanding in the tuner crowd, at least among those with a conscience...when you mod, the car is no longer under warranty. Been like this forever. ECU flash or anything else, man up and accept that you must pay to play. If your engine blows with a tune, that's your fault. The burden of proof would be on YOU to prove the tune didn't cause the failure, why should MBZ have to prove otherwise when their policy is to NOT warrant any modified cars? MB doesn't warranty altered vehicles, nor should they have to. They have no control over what any tune does to the fuel mixture, operating temps, etc...why should they warrant an engine that fails w/a tune?
Do you understand how unethical, fraudulent and childish it is to plan to deceive MBZ in the event of an engine failure after a ECU flash? Yep, it would be an expensive repair. Someone has to pay for it--if Mercedes pays for enough of these via warranty repair, we all get screwed via higher vehicle prices down the line. You're sticking it to the company that made this awesome car for us to enjoy.
If a blown engine repair is too much for you to afford, then you can't afford to mod IMO. Some C63 owners can hardly afford the car in the first place, so modding should be out of the question if they are that concerned with repair bills.
Sorry but the idea of sticking it to MBZ for your modification just bothers me. Doesn't matter whether engines have blown from ECU flashes or not...if one DOES, are you prepared to pay for it? I'm not trying to lecture but rather make some of you think about the ethics of what you're suggesting.
Flame suit on.
The C63 is a $65-$70,000 vehicle. MBZ's warranty protects all of us from failures on a stock car.
I'm a little shocked that some of you are suggesting attempting to trick, lie to and deceive Mercedes Benz after having the ECU flashed. Suggesting 2nd ECUs, re-flashes back to stock, etc is immature grade-school crap. This is what Civic Type R owners do, not MB owners with $70k cars.
There's a longtime understanding in the tuner crowd, at least among those with a conscience...when you mod, the car is no longer under warranty. Been like this forever. ECU flash or anything else, man up and accept that you must pay to play. If your engine blows with a tune, that's your fault. The burden of proof would be on YOU to prove the tune didn't cause the failure, why should MBZ have to prove otherwise when their policy is to NOT warrant any modified cars? MB doesn't warranty altered vehicles, nor should they have to. They have no control over what any tune does to the fuel mixture, operating temps, etc...why should they warrant an engine that fails w/a tune?
Do you understand how unethical, fraudulent and childish it is to plan to deceive MBZ in the event of an engine failure after a ECU flash? Yep, it would be an expensive repair. Someone has to pay for it--if Mercedes pays for enough of these via warranty repair, we all get screwed via higher vehicle prices down the line. You're sticking it to the company that made this awesome car for us to enjoy.
If a blown engine repair is too much for you to afford, then you can't afford to mod IMO. Some C63 owners can hardly afford the car in the first place, so modding should be out of the question if they are that concerned with repair bills.
Sorry but the idea of sticking it to MBZ for your modification just bothers me. Doesn't matter whether engines have blown from ECU flashes or not...if one DOES, are you prepared to pay for it? I'm not trying to lecture but rather make some of you think about the ethics of what you're suggesting.
Flame suit on.
To hide having a tune after your engine has a failure and you try to get MB to cover the warranty fix that was likely caused by the tune is fraud. And I'm certainly not suggesting to attempt to commit fraud.
If you have an aftermarket mod and you have a problem with your car that may be unrelated to the mod, you want MB to stand behind their warranty and fix the problem.
As we've pointed out, no ones engine has blown and MB has not had to eat the cost of aftermarket mods.
Most people would not come into a MB dealership with a blown engine/trans and start lying about mods. They would own up because they wouldn't want to commit fraud for many reasons -- all of them good ones.
Last edited by SonnyakaPig; 03-04-2011 at 01:00 PM.
03-04-2011, 03:04 PM
#82
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88-300CE TWIN TURBO, 99-C43, 05-G55K, 71-280SL, 94-E320 CAB, 08 CLK63 BLACK SERIES
Response to 2: some tuners can tune over the OBD without modifying the ECU, physically. It depends on the tuner, the ECU, and the available technology. At the moment, I know Speedriven and OE Tuning can do this on the Mercedes, and Speedriven and Softronic can do this on Porsches. Cobb can do this on Nissans and Subarus, etc., so the technology is out there.
Response to 3: Well said.
Response to 3: Well said.
No need to physically touch the ECU to tune.
03-04-2011, 05:27 PM
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I've also been thinking a lot about this, and I disagree with your guys' stance. You guys are taking the position that to hide having a tune is fraud. No it isn't.
To hide having a tune after your engine has a failure and you try to get MB to cover the warranty fix that was likely caused by the tune is fraud.
To hide having a tune after your engine has a failure and you try to get MB to cover the warranty fix that was likely caused by the tune is fraud.
The bolded part above is "my stance." I also think, from his comments, that it's VCA_AMG's stance. So, it sounds like you may agree.FWIW, any deceitful behavior is technically fraud - just not fraud in the context of what we're discussing here... specifically, warranty/insurance fraud.
You, my friend, appear to be an optimist. I really hope you're right... but I have a lingering suspicion that many folks, when faced with a repair bill costing more than the entire car is worth, might not be as forthcoming as you suggest. I hope my feeling is wrong.
03-04-2011, 05:52 PM
#84
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this whole argument about modding and getting one over the dealer is like being pulled over by the cops, they've probably heard it all so don't think your b.s. is going to fool them....at least any reputable dealer.
03-04-2011, 05:55 PM
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c200k
SonnyakaPig, I don't think you disagree with us. The bolded part above is "my stance." I also think, from his comments, that it's VCA_AMG's stance. So, it sounds like you may agree.
FWIW, any deceitful behavior is technically fraud - just not fraud in the context of what we're discussing here... specifically, warranty/insurance fraud.
You, my friend, appear to be an optimist. I really hope you're right... but I have a lingering suspicion that many folks, when faced with a repair bill costing more than the entire car is worth, might not be as forthcoming as you suggest. I hope my feeling is wrong.
The bolded part above is "my stance." I also think, from his comments, that it's VCA_AMG's stance. So, it sounds like you may agree.FWIW, any deceitful behavior is technically fraud - just not fraud in the context of what we're discussing here... specifically, warranty/insurance fraud.
You, my friend, appear to be an optimist. I really hope you're right... but I have a lingering suspicion that many folks, when faced with a repair bill costing more than the entire car is worth, might not be as forthcoming as you suggest. I hope my feeling is wrong.
03-04-2011, 06:04 PM
#86
SonnyakaPig, I don't think you disagree with us. The bolded part above is "my stance." I also think, from his comments, that it's VCA_AMG's stance. So, it sounds like you may agree.
FWIW, any deceitful behavior is technically fraud - just not fraud in the context of what we're discussing here... specifically, warranty/insurance fraud.
You, my friend, appear to be an optimist. I really hope you're right... but I have a lingering suspicion that many folks, when faced with a repair bill costing more than the entire car is worth, might not be as forthcoming as you suggest. I hope my feeling is wrong.
The bolded part above is "my stance." I also think, from his comments, that it's VCA_AMG's stance. So, it sounds like you may agree.FWIW, any deceitful behavior is technically fraud - just not fraud in the context of what we're discussing here... specifically, warranty/insurance fraud.
You, my friend, appear to be an optimist. I really hope you're right... but I have a lingering suspicion that many folks, when faced with a repair bill costing more than the entire car is worth, might not be as forthcoming as you suggest. I hope my feeling is wrong.
That's not what I belieived we were discussing. We were sharing information, some factual, some theoretical, about a often misunderstood subject: MB's ability to discover aftermarket tunes and issues concerning a OBDII tuning programer.
It's the line of thinking that leads to the point about "any deceitful behavior is technically fraud" that makes this issue debatable.
My training causes me to keep the logic constant. And if the constant in this situation is informing MB when you alter their OEM intended design, then we must notify them of every significant modification as soon as we perform the mod.
Hypothetically, I can legally tune my car. I can legally present my car at a MB dealership for warranty repair that is not related to abuse/alteration of intended design. I cannot intentionally hide materially relevant information that I have a duty do disclose and I cannot sit back and allow MB to operate under a non-truth that I have a duty to correct.
But, what do you think may happen in a pratical sense if I present my car to MB for warranty repair following the illumination of CEL's on my DIC that reflect codes that are known or should be known to stem from TSB's relating to purge valve issues, and I tell them I have a tune?
They can easily say, "we will look into this, at a charge to you (pursuant to our shop rate), because your warranty is void."
How is that fair?
As Dodger pointed out, this question about "factory warranty being voided" comes up almost monthly. We all know the answer. So, to me, I didn't agree with interpreting the discussion that ensued as a means to commit fraud.
I understand your completely reasonable point about doubting the likelihood of a car owner to fess up to hidden mods when faced with a $$$ thousand dollar repair bill. But, lying in such a situation is very dangerous and just plain wrong.
But, keeping a tune your own private business when you are not asking for warranty repair work that is necessitated by your alterations is just a personal choice and in my mind, it's not unethical at all.
As I've said before, I value your opinion and respect your ability to make your points.
03-04-2011, 08:43 PM
#87
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sknight, cheers:
fraud /frɔd/ Show Spelled
[frawd] Show IPA
–noun
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
Use fraud in a Sentence
See images of fraud
Search fraud on the Web
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1300–50; Middle English fraude < Old French < Medieval Latin fraud- (stem of fraus ) deceit, injury
—Related forms
fraud·ful, adjective
fraud·ful·ly, adverb
an·ti·fraud, adjective
pre·fraud, noun
—Synonyms
1. See deceit. 3. wile, hoax.
I think there were a couple tangental conversations going on in this thread, which may've added to the confusion. I was interpreting some posts to be suggesting (pretty clearly, in fact) fraudulent behavior in the event of a catastrophic issue. The OP posted about MB voiding his warranty if he got a tune. The first 3-4 responses all basically say the same thing, paraphrasing, "you'll be fine unless you have a major issue, which is unlikely, but in that case kiss your warranty goodbye." propain's posts #7 (sorry propain ) and #17, along with several from others in agreement, is what then spurred much of the subsequent back-and-forth about warranty and consumer behavior on a tuned vehicle. IMHO.
I think this is where, perhaps, some confusion is coming from. I wasn't participating in the "block tuner" sidebar conversation at all. Just about warranty and modifications (specifically, ECU tuning and engine/drivetrain issues), starting in post #57.
Agreed 100%.
It isn't. And the tuning probably isn't germaine to the issue. If the symptoms and a corresponding TSB suggest a simple fix for the dealer service dept, that should be pursued first - I don't see a moral obligation to disclose the tune in your hypothetical, unless directly queried by the dealership.
I just think it depends on which discussion.
Agreed 100%. But not everyone sees it the same way, given some of the comments in this thread.
Also agree.
Ditto, SonnyakaPig.
Here's the bottomline, in my mind: it's reasonable to assume MBUSA can detect if you have, or have ever had, an aftermarket tune on your C63. Maybe your local dealer can't, and in all likelihood it's moot because you'll probably never have an issue - but if your engine goes kaboom, expect that MB will want to go through your car with a fine toothed comb looking for anything suspicious.
A previously-opened ECU is circumstantial, not exactly a smoking gun - but IMHO it gives MB ammo to dig deeper and fight the claim. Swapping ECUs doesn't completely solve things, depending on flash counters and firmware matching correctly. Assume you have an '08, and in '09 there was a dealer-installed update - but only 1 of your 2 ECUs received the update. One of them won't match the service history properly, right?
The worst-possible scenario for an owner is if their engine had an unknown preexisting weakness (con rod, piston, etc.) that would've failed during the warranty period even if everything was stock... but they tuned the car 6 months after buying it, and then 6 months later the con rod lets go. Just dumb luck. The only way to protect yourself against such an unlikely scenario, is to drive and enjoy your car stock during the warranty period, and as soon as that clock strikes midnight... mod like crazy and fall in love all over again.
fraud /frɔd/ Show Spelled
[frawd] Show IPA
–noun
1. deceit, trickery, sharp practice, or breach of confidence, perpetrated for profit or to gain some unfair or dishonest advantage.
2. a particular instance of such deceit or trickery: mail fraud; election frauds.
3. any deception, trickery, or humbug: That diet book is a fraud and a waste of time.
4. a person who makes deceitful pretenses; sham; poseur.
Use fraud in a Sentence
See images of fraud
Search fraud on the Web
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Origin:
1300–50; Middle English fraude < Old French < Medieval Latin fraud- (stem of fraus ) deceit, injury
—Related forms
fraud·ful, adjective
fraud·ful·ly, adverb
an·ti·fraud, adjective
pre·fraud, noun
—Synonyms
1. See deceit. 3. wile, hoax.
) and #17, along with several from others in agreement, is what then spurred much of the subsequent back-and-forth about warranty and consumer behavior on a tuned vehicle. IMHO.That's not what I belieived we were discussing. We were sharing information, some factual, some theoretical, about a often misunderstood subject: MB's ability to discover aftermarket tunes and issues concerning a OBDII tuning programer.
It's the line of thinking that leads to the point about "any deceitful behavior is technically fraud" that makes this issue debatable.
It's the line of thinking that leads to the point about "any deceitful behavior is technically fraud" that makes this issue debatable.
Hypothetically, I can legally tune my car. I can legally present my car at a MB dealership for warranty repair that is not related to abuse/alteration of intended design. I cannot intentionally hide materially relevant information that I have a duty do disclose and I cannot sit back and allow MB to operate under a non-truth that I have a duty to correct.
But, what do you think may happen in a pratical sense if I present my car to MB for warranty repair following the illumination of CEL's on my DIC that reflect codes that are known or should be known to stem from TSB's relating to purge valve issues, and I tell them I have a tune?
They can easily say, "we will look into this, at a charge to you (pursuant to our shop rate), because your warranty is void."
How is that fair?
They can easily say, "we will look into this, at a charge to you (pursuant to our shop rate), because your warranty is void."
How is that fair?
Here's the bottomline, in my mind: it's reasonable to assume MBUSA can detect if you have, or have ever had, an aftermarket tune on your C63. Maybe your local dealer can't, and in all likelihood it's moot because you'll probably never have an issue - but if your engine goes kaboom, expect that MB will want to go through your car with a fine toothed comb looking for anything suspicious.
A previously-opened ECU is circumstantial, not exactly a smoking gun - but IMHO it gives MB ammo to dig deeper and fight the claim. Swapping ECUs doesn't completely solve things, depending on flash counters and firmware matching correctly. Assume you have an '08, and in '09 there was a dealer-installed update - but only 1 of your 2 ECUs received the update. One of them won't match the service history properly, right?
The worst-possible scenario for an owner is if their engine had an unknown preexisting weakness (con rod, piston, etc.) that would've failed during the warranty period even if everything was stock... but they tuned the car 6 months after buying it, and then 6 months later the con rod lets go. Just dumb luck. The only way to protect yourself against such an unlikely scenario, is to drive and enjoy your car stock during the warranty period, and as soon as that clock strikes midnight... mod like crazy and fall in love all over again.
03-05-2011, 05:58 AM
#88
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2009
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'15 E63S wagon
It appears to be a common tactic on this forum to say "WOW LOLORZ I TOUCHED TEH NERVE" Look at my post history and you will see that. It's overused, and often used when someone has NOTHING and wants to somehow make themself think they got one over someone on the internet.
What I called out was how you minimized a situation that has lead to deaths around the world, suicides, and now, revolutions and anarchy. You are driving a toy and investing yourself into an optional luxury item, but now you minimize a situation that you're insulated from and dumbing it down to explain to people, using flawed logic, how it's teh same thing lololorz as a hobby? Pathetic and that is the display of your moral compass.
And your response about the doubts of "deaths of people worldwide" shows your utter lack of understanding of how the world works outside of your town. It shows that you are simply unable to fathom world events outside of your little, petty, selfish sphere.
What I called out was how you minimized a situation that has lead to deaths around the world, suicides, and now, revolutions and anarchy. You are driving a toy and investing yourself into an optional luxury item, but now you minimize a situation that you're insulated from and dumbing it down to explain to people, using flawed logic, how it's teh same thing lololorz as a hobby? Pathetic and that is the display of your moral compass.
And your response about the doubts of "deaths of people worldwide" shows your utter lack of understanding of how the world works outside of your town. It shows that you are simply unable to fathom world events outside of your little, petty, selfish sphere.
Good luck in life.
Expect this thread to be locked soon, I imagine.
