One of the partners at my firm heard this re: AMG and down shifting...true?
04-20-2011, 11:37 PM
#26
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Most of the reasons stated here are valid.
The reason the AMG guys said not to downshift.. is during race conditions or track time. you are more likely to end up in a wall if you dont use the brakes...
The reason the AMG guys said not to downshift.. is during race conditions or track time. you are more likely to end up in a wall if you dont use the brakes...
04-20-2011, 11:40 PM
#27
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On a stick, I use the brakes more often than downshift since it is cheaper to replace the brakes than the clutch. I wonder if the same wisdom hold true? I am inclined to think so.
Last edited by Sincity; 04-20-2011 at 11:42 PM.
04-21-2011, 12:11 AM
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Everyone should agree that excessive engine braking is hard on a transmission. Some of us who track our cars have experienced transmission overheating as a result of high rev manual downshifting. This results in the inability to manually shift until the fluids cool down and a default to C mode. Having said this, the C63 is designed for and should be manually downshifted. It's what the advertised blip is all about. Love it.
04-21-2011, 01:39 AM
#29
I use the following mph to downshift and engine break around town: I drop into 4th around 40 mph, 3rd at 30 mph, 2nd at 17-18 mph, and 1st -- if I don't let the car drop into 1st on its own -- at like 9-12 mph.
I don't believe I am stressing the engine one bit with that conservative downshifting pattern.
If I'm doing more spirited driving, I will downshift as low as the trans will let me to access more elasticity in my throttle response and to get a nice jump on a roll in 2nd or 3rd gear.
But, I don't downshift just to hear a loud noise. I think downshifting with the primary purpose of hearing the engine's rpms shoot up is how you wear on the engine and maybe even the trans.
I do agree with you that if you do spirited driving for a relatively extended period of time the car will smell from the brakes and other places as well.
04-21-2011, 01:58 AM
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I seem to remember people who track say M mode disappears after an extended period of harsh driving - now Im not sure if thats due to heat or strain on the tranny. If its the latter, it leads me to believe that downshifting does cause more damage than just braking.
I for one rarely drive in M mode, and Im not really sure why. I get close to home and I remember M mode exists so I drop it into M. Even for that brief time I notice the difference in the smell after I get out - definitely smells like burning.
But I agree, the sound of the blip is intoxicating. Brings me back to days of SMGII, only u cant downshift in the C63 and mash it like in the E46.
I recall somone mentioning to me in the past they downshift as low as 2nd, but always let the car shift into first on its own. Not sure if it matters but I find myself doing that a lot.
Oh, and if your leasing, or bought it like me but wont keep it a mile over 50k, downshift all u want!
I for one rarely drive in M mode, and Im not really sure why. I get close to home and I remember M mode exists so I drop it into M. Even for that brief time I notice the difference in the smell after I get out - definitely smells like burning.
But I agree, the sound of the blip is intoxicating. Brings me back to days of SMGII, only u cant downshift in the C63 and mash it like in the E46.
I recall somone mentioning to me in the past they downshift as low as 2nd, but always let the car shift into first on its own. Not sure if it matters but I find myself doing that a lot.
Oh, and if your leasing, or bought it like me but wont keep it a mile over 50k, downshift all u want!
04-21-2011, 02:47 AM
#31
I have never used downshifting to slowdown the car. Since when did anyone slowdown from 60-0 using the tranny alone?
In spirited driving, you hit the brake first and then downshift when the ECU allows to keep yourself within the powerband for the next bout of acceleration. Sure there will be more wear, but it shouldn't destroy your car, especially since the ECU controls what you can and can't do. Downshift too high in the rpm range and the car simply won't let you do it.
I downshift as much as I can and it's part of enjoying the car. If there are additional maintenance cost associated with that, then fine. But I wouldn't try to save the car so much as to not enjoy this AMG given gift...that's almost like wasting the entire purchase price of the car... It's like saying I won't accelerate as hard since it causes more wear to the engine!
In spirited driving, you hit the brake first and then downshift when the ECU allows to keep yourself within the powerband for the next bout of acceleration. Sure there will be more wear, but it shouldn't destroy your car, especially since the ECU controls what you can and can't do. Downshift too high in the rpm range and the car simply won't let you do it.
I downshift as much as I can and it's part of enjoying the car. If there are additional maintenance cost associated with that, then fine. But I wouldn't try to save the car so much as to not enjoy this AMG given gift...that's almost like wasting the entire purchase price of the car... It's like saying I won't accelerate as hard since it causes more wear to the engine!
04-21-2011, 04:00 AM
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Not downshifting at all would be the same as putting seat covers on your new car seats!.......i.e. so that the next owner will enjoy the car more than you did.
04-21-2011, 07:46 AM
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This discussion is useful for me, since I'll soon be done my break-in period and exploring the various transmission modes.
One of the more valuable findings from philosophy is the principle of moderation (most famously attributed to Aristotle). It seems to apply here. Perhaps moderate use of manual downshifting provides the best balance between having fun and preserving the car. It's been noted that the car will protect itself by going to C mode if the transmission overheats, but I suspect that one will have already gone too far if the car needs to resort to that.
Does anyone know an AMG engineer (not instructor) to pose these sorts of questions to?
One of the more valuable findings from philosophy is the principle of moderation (most famously attributed to Aristotle). It seems to apply here. Perhaps moderate use of manual downshifting provides the best balance between having fun and preserving the car. It's been noted that the car will protect itself by going to C mode if the transmission overheats, but I suspect that one will have already gone too far if the car needs to resort to that.
Does anyone know an AMG engineer (not instructor) to pose these sorts of questions to?
04-21-2011, 08:26 AM
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My guess would be that any mechanic at an AMG center (like the one in Bethesda MD) would be able to provide you with a good answer as they are the ones who do the repairs.
04-21-2011, 09:05 AM
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Brakes cheaper to repair than tranny.......driving school instructor consulted yesterday.....that is the reason they say that when asked....downshifting okay if applied at the proper speed points........use them brakes to slow down!!
04-21-2011, 09:31 AM
#37
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I think the answer to this question really depends on the load you're placing on the trans and engine when you downshift.
I use the following mph to downshift and engine break around town: I drop into 4th around 40 mph, 3rd at 30 mph, 2nd at 17-18 mph, and 1st -- if I don't let the car drop into 1st on its own -- at like 9-12 mph.
I don't believe I am stressing the engine one bit with that conservative downshifting pattern.
If I'm doing more spirited driving, I will downshift as low as the trans will let me to access more elasticity in my throttle response and to get a nice jump on a roll in 2nd or 3rd gear.
But, I don't downshift just to hear a loud noise. I think downshifting with the primary purpose of hearing the engine's rpms shoot up is how you wear on the engine and maybe even the trans.
I do agree with you that if you do spirited driving for a relatively extended period of time the car will smell from the brakes and other places as well.
I use the following mph to downshift and engine break around town: I drop into 4th around 40 mph, 3rd at 30 mph, 2nd at 17-18 mph, and 1st -- if I don't let the car drop into 1st on its own -- at like 9-12 mph.
I don't believe I am stressing the engine one bit with that conservative downshifting pattern.
If I'm doing more spirited driving, I will downshift as low as the trans will let me to access more elasticity in my throttle response and to get a nice jump on a roll in 2nd or 3rd gear.
But, I don't downshift just to hear a loud noise. I think downshifting with the primary purpose of hearing the engine's rpms shoot up is how you wear on the engine and maybe even the trans.
I do agree with you that if you do spirited driving for a relatively extended period of time the car will smell from the brakes and other places as well.
When I drive hard in M mode I definitly smell brake and clutch when I get out. I never smell it in S mode.
04-21-2011, 10:55 AM
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Downshifting is an essential part of driving for "sport". That being said, the way I have always thought of it is: "What is easier/less costly to replace - brakes or differential/transmission?". Invariably, downshifting to slow the car or downshifting while enjoying spirited driving puts intense strain on the differential. Now, the differential in an AMG is designed to withstand a good beating for sure. However, I would put my money on the fact that those drivers who downshift very infrequently (myself) versus drivers who downshift constantly, will have their transmissions/diff. last much longer. That is not to say that downshifting will lead to differentials demise in a vehicle's lifetime. But for those who are conscious of a costly diff. replacement at 80,000 miles, it would definitely be safe to avoid downshifting, at least as a means of regularly slowing down the car. I am all for spirited downshifting when really "getting after it", but just not daily consistent downshifting.
I say drive it like you stole it
04-21-2011, 12:52 PM
#40
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I talked to an AMG Master Tech about this very same subject when I bought my E63 back in 07. He told me that the transmission can handle the torque that the motor can put out. You will not hurt the transmission in anyway, as AMG designed it to handle all the hp and torque, the M156 can throw at it. Ask yourself, why then did AMG place the shift paddles on the steering wheel for.........decoration I think not!!!
I think not!!!
04-21-2011, 01:13 PM
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04-21-2011, 01:20 PM
#43
This discussion is useful for me, since I'll soon be done my break-in period and exploring the various transmission modes.
One of the more valuable findings from philosophy is the principle of moderation (most famously attributed to Aristotle). It seems to apply here. Perhaps moderate use of manual downshifting provides the best balance between having fun and preserving the car. It's been noted that the car will protect itself by going to C mode if the transmission overheats, but I suspect that one will have already gone too far if the car needs to resort to that.
Does anyone know an AMG engineer (not instructor) to pose these sorts of questions to?
One of the more valuable findings from philosophy is the principle of moderation (most famously attributed to Aristotle). It seems to apply here. Perhaps moderate use of manual downshifting provides the best balance between having fun and preserving the car. It's been noted that the car will protect itself by going to C mode if the transmission overheats, but I suspect that one will have already gone too far if the car needs to resort to that.
Does anyone know an AMG engineer (not instructor) to pose these sorts of questions to?
04-21-2011, 01:23 PM
#44
I talked to an AMG Master Tech about this very same subject when I bought my E63 back in 07. He told me that the transmission can handle the torque that the motor can put out. You will not hurt the transmission in anyway, as AMG designed it to handle all the hp and torque, the M156 can throw at it. Ask yourself, why then did AMG place the shift paddles on the steering wheel for.........decoration I think not!!!
I think not!!!
04-21-2011, 01:28 PM
#45
Sounds like you dont abuse it. Maybe someone should install a tranny temp gauge and compare. Its all about heat. Constant up and down blipping heats up the tranny more than it would in S mode. Some have even reported the tranny going into limp mode on the track.
When I drive hard in M mode I definitly smell brake and clutch when I get out. I never smell it in S mode.
When I drive hard in M mode I definitly smell brake and clutch when I get out. I never smell it in S mode.
I think another element to consider is how long you keep the rpms jacked up high in the power band when doing spirited driving. I don't like the sound of my engine screaming for a gear shift, so I shift.
Obviously, like you said if you do this a lot, like on a track, the trans will heat up, but we do have a trans cooler and this car has probably been torture tested in hot climates, so we should all be fine.
04-21-2011, 03:55 PM
#46
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Have you every seen the torture tests they put these cars thru? Test in the artic of Norway for extreme cold, Death Valley and Namibia for extreme heat. You need to see the videos from the test. The car can take the abuse believe me.
04-21-2011, 06:00 PM
#47
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I'm moving towards the opinion that it's probably OK to downshift fairly aggressively, although I do suspect that doing so will have at least some impact on the life of the engine and transmission.
It would be nice to have some hard empirical data on this (rather than anecdotes and speculation), but that's probably very hard to get ...
It would be nice to have some hard empirical data on this (rather than anecdotes and speculation), but that's probably very hard to get ...
04-21-2011, 06:57 PM
#48
I'm moving towards the opinion that it's probably OK to downshift fairly aggressively, although I do suspect that doing so will have at least some impact on the life of the engine and transmission.
It would be nice to have some hard empirical data on this (rather than anecdotes and speculation), but that's probably very hard to get ...
It would be nice to have some hard empirical data on this (rather than anecdotes and speculation), but that's probably very hard to get ...
But, you have to look at the facts we do have available.
MB/AMG tell us its okay to downshift in the manual, our cars have paddle shifters, M mode, many users report continued fun and reliability with aggressive but smart downshifts over many thousands of cumulative miles driven, and our warranties will be honored even if the MB dealer knows that u use "M" mode.
If you change your oil every 3k, shift with brains, and use good gas, the wear can be minimized as much as possible while still enjoying the hell out of the built in performance.
Last edited by SonnyakaPig; 04-21-2011 at 07:00 PM.
