MB_Forever

The other site was actually started in response to the continued locking/deleting/moving threads on here. Many members have complained that some threads would get locked or moved way too quickly (sometimes before they even get a chance to see it) resulting in their side of the story never being told. As a result, the other site was born.... a site with little to no censorship... Otherwise, it would not have existed at all

I understand you guys lock threads to prevent "cat fights" and "stalking" but locking the threads is a little extreme in my opinion. There are other ways to minimize the "cat fights" and such: sending warnings to the members who are doing it, editing their post, infractions, etc..... The majority of the people tend to engage in reasonable discussions and would like for the thread to remain open so that they can voice their feedback and experiences. And as you have seen, this can be a very important tool for enthusiasts to protect themselves against certain bad vendors.

Mort

Thanks for the history and explanation.

Nola

That's great. I've learned that everybody has a unique modding style, although sites tend to adopt a common approach. Some sites allow **** and swearing, and we don't. Just different styles that will appeal to some folks and will turn others away. Don't see the reason for spamming/slandering this site though. Do you have a horse in the race maybe?

MB_Forever

No horse in either race, lets not speculate I never said it was okay to spam a site. Spamming is almost always unproductive. The owner of the said site is a BMW enthusiast who used to come to my track events just like many enthusiasts who come every year from here and from many other sites. I was only trying to explain to you why the site was started. He started a BMW site first for the same reason, then started the Mercedes site, then the Audi site.

black-clk500

+63

Sorry I didn't respond sooner to inquiries about the other site.
First off, I'm not affiliated with the site so I'm not Spamming and I'm purposely not going to type in the name or PM the info (unless the Mods tell me I can, sorry guys). I get that part of business, believe me.

As for the other site, it is everything I look for in a car forum.
Yes, adult language is used and there are threads with hot chicks/**** if you seek them out (in the off topic area), but there is also lots of good BMW and MB related info, especially for the guys that like modding their cars.
And for the record, there is no "cat fights" and BS going on at all, the owner/moderator of the site is great about keeping everything organized and on topic.
There's a lot of guys on MBW that contribute and post over there all of the time--in fact a few weeks ago, I posted a nice piece on getting my LSD fluid changed out and I decided only to post it over there because I feel some allegiance to the place since people can speak their mind and discuss anything they want w/o being locked or banned because we crossed some grade school rule
Last time I checked, most of us (99% I'm guessing) are men here, so why is a little adult language and an off topic area with T&A a bad thing?

Anyway, the freedom and honesty at the other site is the biggest reason for it's success and it's the main reason I consider it my #1 MB forum.

I like MBW a lot too, the history of threads to search and the shear knowledge in here is amazing.
The members are the ones that built this site and the info contained within it.
But most of the mods here do run a tight ship and have little patience for anything that jeopardizes their virtual monopoly and protecting their vendors over the members.
This has been documented and mentioned on here for years, it is no secret.
I personally like a place that is members 1st, vendors 2nd and that is what the other site is all about.
I know this is a business at the end of the day and since Internet Brands is a huge company that owns lots of forums etc. it has to operate this way (in their minds anyway).
I don't like big business for this very reason--they lose touch with their customers/users.

Anyway, I'm off the soap box now, just wanted to explain my previous post and answer those members "in the dark."
I can't type the website name here because a) it's censored and won't show up and b) I'd probably get banned from here
There's a dozen or so of you who I know would really like the other place and I keep hoping to see your names show up and 100s more of you who would value the other site too.
Just my opinion as a user of both sites, I just don't know why MBW can't share their members willingly--just another example of what irks me about this place, but it's still a great forum, thanks to it's contributors (incl. some mods)

Nola

Refreshing to have grown up conversations... step up from even a few weeks ago, thanks guys. I think we all agree: sites are run the way they are run. This appeals to some and not to others.

But this is no reason to spam or slander another site, so I hope you folks will not contribute to it, and perhaps would speak out against it as well, because it does happen and you know where it comes from. I suppose the trolls who do that ruined it for everyone else and that's why you can't even type the website in.

SMP

You being a Moderator on that "site" doesn't qualify?

dodger63

I took horse in the race more like a monetary intrest? I think but mo is very objective as most of us no he's into the facts just the facts.

MB_Forever

I am a moderator on a couple of sites; that does not mean I prefer one site over the other or have a horse in the race. I do NOT own, co-own, or partial-own the site, I am NOT a sponsor/vendor on the site, I do NOT profit in any way from the site, and I do NOT have any connection to anyone who profits from the site aside from being a respected fellow enthusiast.

Nola is a moderator here, does that mean he has a horse in that race or that his opinion should be discarded because it would be considered bias? Absolutely not. He is actually one of the more reasonable (and easy going) moderators on here. I guess I don't see your point

By the way, I don't know if you have noticed, but I do post here much more than I do on the other site I like both forums, but I do think that over-locking threads here regarding certain vendors hurts enthusiasts as a whole. And I can mention (at least) two examples where being open helped enthusiasts recover from "bad vendor" situations. Also, on the other site, users mostly moderate themselves. They decide who to ban... not moderators. Consequently, one would have to post so many negative posts and **** off a lot of people to get banned. This means members are free to voice their opinions, whether good or bad, without fear of being put on probation or banned.

SMP

It was a question, just like Nola's . Besides, where in my post do you see anything about monetary compensation? What's interesting though, you're now the second person who brings it up. Doesn't a site need to have a LOT of members first to attract enough paying vendors to make it profitable?

MB_Forever

I think more than a couple of people took Nola's "horse in this race" comment to mean/imply some type of monetary benefit whether direct or indirect, so I figured it'd be best to rule it out as early as possible since some times speculation spreads widely - especially around here.

Regarding your "moderator" comment, I'm just curious, if you weren't talking about any type of monetary benefit or interest, what type of "horse in this race" or what type of benefit did you mean with that comment?

Yes you are correct, and just like any new site, the site in question is fairly young but is growing exponentially. The advantage it has over mbworld is that any vendor and any enthusiast can exchange conversations very freely regarding any vendor/sponsor or any other topic regardless of how controversial things get. Over here, some members/sponsors get banned without the possibility of ever responding to future comments even if it retains to a new topic. On the other site, even if someone is banned, and they request to be unbanned to respond to a certain topic or thread, they would be allowed to do so.

SMP

Thank you for answering my question.

Nola

MB_Forever, if you are a moderator in another site, you would indeed have a horse in the race in my opinion (i.e. a formal affiliation in another forum), so your opinions would be perceived as biased, much more so than someone who was not a moderator somewhere else. Would you have said you are a mod if SMP had not called it out?

There is no inherent problem in having such an interest, but if the discussion turned to dirty tactics, or omitted that they have been used, your motives and indeed integrity would come into question. My opinion.

Having said that, I do think that dirty tactics have been used against MBWorld that go beyond disagreeing with moderating style... such as knowingly spreading false rumors both openly and behind the scenes, taking actions to purposely defeat moderation (like creating fake users and/or using url spoofs), and/or rallying other members to do the same. I suspect there may be more things that we simply don't know about.

I hope that you have not been a part of any of this, or condoned it by inaction, your speaking out against dirty tactics notwithstanding.

generalhh

This right here is what I'm talking about.

We are all just pawns for the forum owners and sponsors. Both sites. Yea we officially have forum a moderator vs forum b moderator.

I was afraid it was only about protecting sponsors but as everyone now can clearly see by the posts this thread has brought out this about really one very strong sponsor with dads money and forum originally founded by them/him and a new forum that is for now not sponsor driven.
To top it off it is now a battle for eyeballs. Instead of them trying to build better sites they both are now trying to sway and move the members.

Super not cool. But hey what should we expect.

So let me get this straight
Forum a is scared of losing members to forum b.

Forum b was setup because forum a in their opinion took a Duce on its own members to protect a sponsor.(with know Internet history of bad cash flow management and screwed up orders).

There guys it's been said. No can we please stop the childish acting like people can't use google.

I understand why naming site b is aginst the rules i just question the real reason behind it as we can name other sites on this forum.

MB_Forever

And you have not answered mine

I respectfully disagree with you on a couple of points here: first, I do not know what you mean by "formal affiliation". My definition of "formal" is the involvement of some type of written agreement. I did not sign any papers to moderate the site and was never even asked to agree verbally. Second, being a moderator on one site does not automatically make my opinion bias. You can ask members on here or review my post history of how objective I always try to be. Similarly, I did NOT think you were bias in any of your posts just because you happen to be a moderator here. I agree with some of your posts and simply disagree with other parts of your posts. In my opinion, just because you are a moderator doesn't mean anything you say will be bias towards a certain site. A good moderator always remains objective and speaks out strongly about the good and the bad - all in a greater effort to help the enthusiast community as a whole.

I posted a couple of times now that spamming a site is not good. So if that did occur, then I am against it and hope it has stopped. I would've thought my previous posts would have cleared that point already, but I guess not . However, you have to also admit there are some dirty tactics that go on here as well. Over the past two years, certain vendors got certain treatments and not all were treated equally. So just as you eloquently put it: "if the discussion turned to dirty tactics or omitted that they have been used, your motives and indeed integrity would come into question".... do you at least then admit that there was a few dirty tactics used right here on mbworld by some vendors/moderators/admins over the past few years?

One of the beauties of the other style of moderating (the point system used on the other site) is that members moderate themselves, which means the other side can openly go on there and defend those "false" rumors... maybe even prove them wrong or at least tell their side of the story. Basically, they can post without fear of being banned or have their voice some how silenced. But on here, the creators of such "false" rumors would get banned or at least have the thread locked or moved for presenting a "false" rumor before members get to investigate who is correct and who is not? On the other site (and a couple of other sites actually), both sides are presented and essentially members decide for themselves what's what.

Like I said earlier, I do NOT condone dirty tactics on both sides. I do, however, recommend people check out the other site and judge for themselves whether the information presented is true or false and whether they even like the site or not. It is their choice. Furthermore, I do not consider referring enthusiasts to check out a site a dirty tactic at all. In fact, I think it maybe considered dirty to actually hide it from them (or somehow prevent them from) getting to the information to be able to judge themselves. In the end, I love both sites, they both have their advantages and disadvantages, and I think it's the variety and diversity that keeps the internet interesting

generalhh

Ok guys can we agree to disagree. I admit I was upset about the whole sponsor coverup jalopnik thing with faux legal threats to the other site but I also must say the user that started thus whole thing with him getting screwed on a 6month plus scam turned stright ***** ***** after having his Internet Friends standup for him.

He even went on this site and edited his posts. Somehow the forum moderators added the sponsor in min. The bad publicity by playing a little creative game of move/lock/oneway thread.

It's pretty clear once he got made whole gave a big f/u to the rest of us by participating in the scham.

Then he went on to attempt help rewrite history. This is the same guy that ran around on this forum a few years back claiming times and never showing proof and then blaming it on his assistants that post for him.

I am not even mad this ***** got played because his whole car is a rolling showcase for the sponsor.

I'm more conceded to why his story originally sounded like dozens I found about this particular sponsor.

Also of note was this particular sponsors business credit profile especially during the period in question. (it's quite clear they had cash-flow and product distributor issues)

The posters problems were classic and then the Internet showed literally tons of back orders for parts from dozens of Internet car forums (BMW,Audi,mb) then somehow the investment prospectus of this vendor leaked showing the backlog of orders and current state of business and historical $ records on jalopnik (national respected automotive site ) soon there after the sponsor got some type of liquidity and normalized terms with vendors and product again began to flow and members started getting updated tracking information and stuff started to ship company turned the corner)

Those who have small business (under 25mil year) have been thru this yourselfs or have a fried who's business has. It's the old almost lost my shirt story but I made it.

The problem here is I and a lot of members belive the site was pushed into over moderating the posts that questioned the sponsors business practices and reasons for delays and what appeared to be fraud. This happened not only on MBW but other sites as well. The common link was this sponsor knew how to manipulate and position itself in to the favorable role and stifle and negative comments. This worked all the way until jalopnik got the story.

Then it became pretty clear that the sponsor was having issues people began to talk.

The sponsor got upset and even had daddy attempt to fix it like he did many times in the past but the only wait was more $$$ to normalize terms and begin shipping product again.

Instead of the truth guys we got the version the vendr wanted until there ability toncontrol the message was destroyed by jalopnik. MBW and it's members were played.

c63canada

amen bro.

Nola

You are right... no written agreements. I suppose I mean formal in an internet kind of way, as in we are part of the volunteer, anonymous staff, so we are not completely impartial: we have the interest of the forum in mind.

We agree on this, being a moderator does not automatically make one biased. That said, mods will always have the interest of their forum in mind.

You did speak out against dirty tactics, and I acknowledged that you did.

First, I don't see anyone on MBWorld doing anything outside MBWorld. No one has spammed or slandered or rallied members against some other site. In fact, we've closed threads that pretend to do as much.

Second, no vendors have admin or mod rights, or are given a free pass for overstepping their bounds, including Evosport. I understand that in the past they did have admin rights, but IB is now the owner and Evosport has no more rights than those of a premium sponsor. All the moderator action you've seen has been in the exclusive interest of enforcing TOU.

Our terms of use are clear... we cannot post anything that is harrassing, intimidating, stalking, threatening, libelious, defamatory, infringing on a 3rd party's rights or that could give rise to civil liability. Mod action is not about silencing opinions, but about the violation of TOU.

MBWorld has a long standing policy of not allowing links or redirects to competing sites. Opinions are fine. Attempts to circumvent this policy about links and redirects, have led to heavy spamming of our site with fake users and spoof URL's. Together with the spread of false rumors this makes the entire site off limits.

VCA_AMG

This thread has given me the urge to take a bowel movement.

MB_Forever

To me, and this is just my opinion, "an internet kind of way" is very informal... unless of course there is some type of written agreement. Agree to disagree on this one I guess

Also, I believe that being a moderator, even as part of an anonymous staff, one would have the interest of the forum members interest in mind not just the forum interest because without the members, the forum itself would start to degrade. A lot of the time these two align nicely, but if there was ever a conflict of interest between forum's interest and member's interest, I think a decent impartial moderator would try to protect member's interests first as objectively as possible.

Again, mostly agreed on this with the minor addition of "mods will always have the interest of their forum members interest in mind"

I didn't mean dirty tactics versus other sites.... I was actually referring to dirty tactics in general. But to be more specific, the dirty tactics that went on here were ironically against mbworld members or some would classify them as being pro certain vendors. Unfortunately, some of these vendors have hurt a bunch of very respected members over time. In the end, if you don't think that dirty tactics never ever took place on this site, then I guess it's agree to disagree again. If you would like to hear actual cases, I'd be happy to tell you through PM or phone sometime

Sometimes it has went further than that, as a bunch of members would post to complain about certain vendors and the threads would get locked before others could chime in and share their experiences or discuss the issue in detail. Labeling information as libelous or "false" without proof does not make it actually libelous. At least one of the parties would have to prove whether the information is true or false first before judging it as libel.

On the other site, party A can present information, which party B thinks is very libelous... instead of the forum destroying the thread, both parties jump in there and discuss their case, and the decision is left ultimately to the forum members.

Great discussion by the way

Nola

I would further expand the definition to Forum members in good standing. Where the interests of the forum, and the interests of members in good standing intersect, is where a good moderator operates.

I think every forum will have a definition of members they want to be part of their community, vs those those they would rather not have there. In MBWorld this definition is pre-set, clearly defined, and has little flexibility. In other sites it is community based, broadly defined and has flexibility. Even in your site I suppose there are limits, else you end up with 4Chan.

The thing with bad vendors is that I don't think we see MBWorld as a community activist. "We" don't report anything, or "obtain" documents, or "sit on information". If a bunch of people have customer service issues with a vendor, they need to deal with that vendor directly. Sorry about your troubles, but this is not the place to organize power plays that may or may not have merit. It is not our mandate to determine the merits, and we will not be a party to it. We're not activists, and I don't know a vendor here from the butcher down the street (I live halfway accross the world). That's what the BBB or the courts (or even other sites) are there for. In the other site, I see the owner defining himself as an activist, agaisnt vendors, against other forums, against the world in general. That has profound effects in how the site runs, imo. It is not just the community ratings thing.

At the end of the day, caveat emptor. We will not defend vendors, we will allow people to express their opinion within TOU, but it is also not our place to be activists. We will simply and hopefully consistently enforce the TOU, so as to maintain the interests of the forum and of forum members in good standing whole.

MB_Forever

Sorry for the late reply, I just saw your reply today....

Well stated Small correction though.... it is not "my site"

I never said MBWorld is an activist community. I see it is as a place for members to share/exchange information about Mercedes-Benz related topics. And such information can include experiences with different products and different vendors. For example, if someone goes through a bad experience with a certain vendor, he/she can come on here and share their experience so that others may be saved from a similar hassle, which in turn, benefits the community as a whole. I'm not saying he should go to MBWorld and force them get a refund or fix things with the vendor. I was only strictly speaking about the exchange of information and opinions between members, and generally having an open discussion about it.

No troubles at all.... Again, I never said that MBWorld should or should not organize any power plays or force moderators to determine any merits. It is the responsibility of the members to determine whether the information presented is true or false and it is up to them whether they want to believe it or not. I don't expect the forum or its moderators to do that at all. Although sometimes moderators will close/delete threads claiming the information is "false" or bad, which implies they've already determined the merit of the information for the members and didn't let them decide for themselves By the way, the BBB is a good source, but sometimes it is not enough - especially for smaller type of businesses/shops, etc...

dodger63

Yea the more I read the more bs it is