Originally Posted by DuaneC63

The 993 ran for 5 years. (1994 first European model to 1998 last Turbo model). Porsche could not produce them in the volume needed to make enough money for their model expansion plans as they had limited engine production capacity with the split case motor and as I stated were very expensive to build. A 996 motor is half the cost of a 993 motor due to both design and economies of scale. They also realized the aircooled motor could not keep up with ever more stringent smog regulations. The production of the Boxster (1997) was not only to widen the product line, but to prove market acceptance of the new water cooled motor. Most Boxsters were sold to individuals that had never owned or considered a Porsche. The concept of an aircooled engine was an enigma to most of the US public ("it's just a big VW engine"). One reason the 996 could outsell the 993 as production was no longer limited by engine production capacity. The main reason the 996 outsold the 993 was because of new first time buyers of the brand (one lesson learned from Boxster sales). Porsche also had subcontracted out the building of the water cooled motors to meet both Boxster and 996 demand. There were severe quality control problems with the new water cooled motors in the beginning. These have been rectified. Sales of the 996 to existing Porsche 911 owners however were a disappointing failure. (Hence the change to the more traditionally styled 997.) Also the many 996 Turbo, GT2 and GT3 variants became more avaliable as split case motors were no longer needed for the n/a 996. These variants sold very well to both new and existing Porsche owners.

As far as performance, on a road course a stock n/a 993 will eat a stock n/a 996 alive (provided the 996 engine does not blow up from oil starvation first. To save money on the 996 engine the dry sump system found on all previous 911's was deleted). I have plenty of first had experience. All variants of 993's in similar condition to the same variant of 996's sell for more on the used market. Go try and find a 993 Turbo S for the same price as a 996 Turbo S.

I agree, as I have previously stated, Porsche had no choice but to embrace more modern engineering, design and build techniques to survive and expand into this millennium. As you can see the split case motor is slowly being phased out (maybe completely one day). The 997.2 Turbo uses the new water cooled motor for the first time and the PDK tranny was designed only to work with the water cooled motor. If Chevy kept building the original 6 cylinder Corvette, there would be no Corvettes today.

Originally Posted by coladin

I love Jaguars. They have always had the panache, to me, of a Ferrari. Not many companies have the history of Jaguar and one day I hope to roll that word off my mouth when someone asks what I drive. Like Jeremy Clarkson says " a JJJJJJJJaaaaagggggggg"!

I was very, very close to getting the XFR, I was close a few moons ago to getting a X-Type, thus has been my desire to own a Jag. I know a made the right call dodging the X-Type and so far I am very happy with my month old C63. The XFR is just an amazing machine and with three kids, I am already keeping a close watch to the brand new XFR. They have improved their reliability tremendously but on two separate test drives, two separate cars, brand new cars, there were electronic glitches. I think any C63 owner would love the XFR, it is at a great price point. I would totaly get it over the E63. In Canada it is 25k cheaper , minimum . 510bhp and it has a better ride than the 2011 C63 although I am curious to how the 2012 C63 has said to have been improved.

Sorry for the long post, but the XKR , the coupe now, is gorgeous, looks like an exotic and has two back seats while bellowing mid 12s in the quarter. That is a car that I would get. It has panache plus it is critically acclaimed.

Originally Posted by IAA-C63

Funny that you mentioned the Panamera. I've driven the Panamera 4, S, 4S, and Turbo many times, and it was originally my first choice of car (and I like the appearance), but I went with the C63 because it's less flashy. Now that I have the C63 available, I'm going back to the idea of adding the Panamera.

Strange thing is that I remember enjoying the 4S more than the Turbo. Could be faulty memory, or maybe the 4S is more nimble because it's lighter (and no turbo lag). And I also enjoy driving the C63 more than the Turbo, though the Panamera does have it's own special appeal.

Bottom line, I think we need to give the 4 and 4S another try.

Originally Posted by OWLY

I gave up my C63 for a Panamera S. I don't regret it at all. Build quality, fit and finish are impressive. Miss the power of C63 but enjoy the handling of the Panamera S. The Panamera is definitely a head turner and the C63 was looked at more as a C-class.

Originally Posted by coladin

Can you not buy two Panameras almost for the price of the Porsche?

Originally Posted by coladin

Well of course it is a C Class! Apples and oranges, C Class and Panamera. You want to talk build quality, fit and finish step up to the new CLS which is a closer competitor as far as price.

Can you not buy two Panameras almost for the price of the Porsche?

Originally Posted by DuaneC63

As Porsche continued to improve the original 911, it retained much of its sports car roots as opposed to the GT feeling of the 996 and 997 (excluding the GT2 and GT3 variants). Porsche never did a clean sheet of paper redesign of the original 1967 911. They just kept improving on the base chassis and kept many of its quirks. The 993 was not only the last of the air cooled but the last of the original design with lots of improvements. It retained the visceral feeling of the original car. Very light and nimble. And it smelt like a real car. Always the faint smell of burnt oil and hot exhaust. You knew when the heater was on because you could smell the exhaust system heat exchangers. The car had the original dash board layout since 1967. It still had hang pedals offset to the right of the driver, an HVAC system only the original designers could ever figure out how to work, real nice VDO gauges that cost a fortune, assorted switches and knobs added in strange and unusual places as more options became available. Interior light lifted off the original VW. Radio's (they should have called them Marconi's but that would be an insult to all Italians) sounded horrid. (The first thing I did with all my Porsche was to junk the stock sound system and put in aftermarket stuff.) The major redesign came with the 964 (the predecessor to the 993) but still retained the original chassis design. Gone was the torsion bar suspension in favor of proper coil over and struts. Gone was the rubbery Mack truck gear lever and ancient G15 tranny replaced by a proper short shifter mated to the G50 tranny mounted under a new tunnel down the center of the car to allow AWD. The 964 contained more new parts than any prior Porsche. In fact the majority of the parts in a 993 carried over from the 964. Unfortunately the 964 suffered from an AWD system more suitable for off-roading, less than attractive massive bumpers, and a very poor economy. Porsche almost went broke. Remember in 1990 Porsche was a tiny little company. Ford built as many F150 trucks in a day as Porsche built 911's in a year. Porsche's ill fated forays into 914 (designed as a VW) 924 (designed as an Audi) 928 (designed to replace the 911, (what a Titanic disaster that would have been) and the 944 and it cousins which weren't bad cars at the original price point. The 993 is so revered for many reason. Firstly it saved Porsche from extinction. It was both the zenith and end of the original 911. It had the best handling and the most power ever available. It was offered in many variants. The styling got rid of the ancient high fender VW lights (yes there was a prior slant nose 935 with pop up headlights but so few real ones were built. Most are modified base cars). The back end flares are massive but maintained the skinny waist line of the car. It had an optional AWD system that worked. The Turbo had also been also tamed by standard AWD. (The 996 turbo still used the 993 turbo motor with water cooled heads). The first time I drove the 996 it screamed designed in Japan (as it partially was). Porsche estimated if they had not turned to the Japanese for engineering/design/build support the 996 would have cost twice as much to build. The body was slab sided with no hips. The headlight assembly which held everything from the turn signal, fog lamps and running lamps was know as the broken egg design. The interior, while a very welcome logical layout was a bit too modern for the Porschenistas. (Cups holders in a Porsche..a true sign the end of the world is near). Hence the 996 did not last very long and early models had engine problems. Porsche quickly did a redesign as the 997 which is basically the same car with big rear flares, and a new front clip with headlights like the 993 and a more traditional interior. There was a rumor they were toying with the idea of getting rid of the christmas tree instrument panel and going back to VDO gauges but it was very cost prohibitive.

I bought my 996TT used as it cost less than a 993TT in the same condition/milage. I always thought turbo charging an aircooled motor was a recipe for disaster. (Porsche must have thought so too as most of their turbo race cars had water cooled heads). So with the water cooled heads I was more comfortable with the design. The Turbo also had the wide hips and traditional split case motor. However it had evolved into more of a GT car. Hence I have done substantial work on the suspension and have some bolt on engine mods (no such thing as too much HP) to get it back to the sport coupe it should be. It is more roomie and comfortable than my 993 (which was also modified). Due to it's weight, it will never handle like my 993. But it sure is fun to mash the loud pedal.

Porsche is a company willing to take chances and willing to fail, but when they succeed it is marvelous.

Originally Posted by SMP

Turbo charging an air cooled motor is not the problem. The 930, 964 and 993 turbos were all air cooled. Besides, 12 quarts of oil do a lot of cooling. Porsche water cooled the heads on their 935's in the 1970's - because they ran 4 valve heads.

Originally Posted by coladin

Keep talking Duane as I sip my coffee...you are better than Road and Track!