Merc63

Well this is funny, because I had my secondary ECU tuned by Renntech!!! And I believe this is the same Bob I dealt with. He is probably confused because he thinks you are going to buy a ECU and send it to him.. You need to have the ECU programmed to the car at the dealer first so it has the VIN on it then send it to get tuned.. So there ya go lol confusing world we live in isn't it.


Smart boy, you can say all you want that your tune didn't cause the problem, but if the dealer says NO, good luck!!!! lawyers, etc big $$$, better off just fixing it.. Or if you are going to tune, cover your bases.

I can only speak from my experience, but it too my friend at the dealer about 2-3 hours to program my ECU. That is what I was charged for.. Granted he said they needed to enter some variables by hand and it took a bit longer then normal now that I think about it..


What exactly is the fraud?????

Nanoflex

If a defect, unrelated to a modification, forms the basis of a warranty claim, the Warrantor would need to demonstrate the causal relationship of the modification to that defect; in order to absolve themselves of liability.

An air intake modification resulting in transmission failure, for example, would not succeed.

Should there be a defect which would be considered directly related to the modification, however, this could transfer responsibility to the Warrantee and that would be for the court to decide.

This could require $$$ from the Warrantee, for a credible expert witness, technical evidence and a decent lawyer.

For 20 hp

Nanoflex

I see your point and I DID envisage providing a spare ECU purchased from ebay or some other source.

So the trick would be to turn up with a spare ECU and persuade the dealership to program it to the vehicle in question...in order to have two programed ECU's, one stock and one for reflashing..?

That would seem a peculiar request for them, how did you manage, if you don't mind the question.

Merc63

Its not always so black and white. There has been members on here that have had big problems with dealers and mods. Maybe the mods didnt directly cause the problem, but the dealer has denied warranty.. And what are we gonna do, pay a lawyer, go to court? Doesn't make financial sense to do that. The dealer has the power, we play by their rules.

Nanoflex

From your outline, a dealership may simply decide to go "rogue" and breach a warranty contract, even for a valid claim.

That would result in a substantial financial outlay and probably no lawyer would take the case on a contingency basis; there is not a sufficient reward incentive.

With that backdrop, it makes the thought of "pushing one's luck" with modifications, somewhat daunting.

Merc63

I went to the parts counter. Said, order me up an ECU please. Paid. Came back with the car when it was in and had them program it to the car.. I said I was going to have it tuned when my warranty expires so I can keep my stock one for resale. The less you tell them the better. Also helps to do this at a dealer that you don't get your warranty work done at

So whenever I had a service or anything at the dealer, Id pop in my stock ecu and bring the car in.

So now if I ever want to sell my car. I can sell it stock or modified.. I have both ECUs, the buyer can choose... Its just always good to have the stock parts IMO.

Merc63

No doubt, modifying a car and keeping the warranty is tricky, but I think it can be done in some situations. Its a gamble either way, but there is obviously ways to keep the odds on your side.

Bottom line is, if you want to guarantee no problems with warranty, don't mod your car. To each their own.

Nanoflex

Simple and smart.

So a stock ECU that you buy from the Parts Department WILL enable you to drive over to the dealership...

rather than do an installation in the dealership car park and have to push it through the doors

Shifter

Remember, you have to get one that has never been installed in a car before, as they are "married" by vin.

Nanoflex

Ah, true...

so that significantly changes the price for a new ECU versus one previously installed.

yikes

sighting

Just pay 22k and get the brabus kit, and it won't break warranty

Jane2233

Remember, you have to get one that has never been installed in a car before, as they are "married" by vin.

gthal

True... if you bring your car in for warranty work that isn't at all related to the tune, you are fine. If the dealer could remotely blame the tune... they will and you would need to prove otherwise or go to court... unless you have a very good relationship with the dealer. Say you had a cylinder misfire issue... I can guarantee they will blame the tune if they find it.

This is why many opt for the P31 package to get the 30hp increase without any of this worry. Many who do mods accept the risk and don't care (some mods are VERY low, if any, risk... tune's are a little higher). Some, either don't know the risk or are optimistic (rightly or wrongly) that they would be fine. For me personally, I would worry too much. Other opinions will differ.

Nanoflex

There is probably little doubt that the drive train in the non AMG models, such as my 2008 550CLK, is robust enough to cope with a reflash and/or some bolt-ons. The issue (if there is one) would not be mechanical but political.

The performance gap has narrowed between the AMG series models and their lowly siblings, yet a substantial pricing gap remains. It would be unsurprising if MB were loathe to be seen giving tacit approval for the modification of non AMG models, further diminishing that performance gap.

Perhaps a little Machiavellian

No matter what, an AMG continues to carry the prestige of being hand-built and the pick of the litter; with non AMG models unable to compete with justifiable bragging rights, no matter what their modifications.

Still...that little demon of additional horsepower will always beckon to some of us.

cptdaz

Well, I don't know much about reality since I never had a warranty request rejected (knock on wood), but words of the law is specific in that manufacturer has to provide proof not just vocalize the cause. And in the real world, statistics are on your side with hundreds of C63 having received similar tune without any issues. SEMA (basically lobbying group for aftermarket parts) can probably provide you with more detailed statistics. And really, I don't think any manufacturer would expect resistance from the owner or have them reference FTC ruling. If it comes down to it, I'm sure a person will be in a good negotiating position if he/she ask for a detail written description of the cause, which can be independently verified by a third party. Not saying marching into the service managers office and shove a copy of the FTC Warranty Act in his face, mind you. But I find that a good altitude, persistence and firm knowledge of the topic will get you places in any negotiation.

Of course, again, all of it is out the door if the problem is something obvious.

jvanbrecht

While you are correct, the dealer has to prove, most dealers will outright deny a warranty claim. You can of course appeal that ruling, but it is going to be costly for you to prove that they were lying through the use of lawyers. That is the point that is being made, regardless of who is right or wrong, it will come down to having to pay for expensive lawyers.

Nanoflex

If a dealership simply dismisses a valid warranty claim out of hand, this could potentially damage the credibility of MB, something they would wish to avoid as the manufacturer of prestige automobiles.

However, if a customer presents a warranty claim which is tainted by modifications made to the vehicle, the manufacturer would probably feel secure enough in their legal standing to void the warranty; even though the consumer protection laws (strictly interpreted) place the onus upon the warrantor to justify the claim being rejected.

Surely, no manufacturer would wish to set a costly and open-ended legal precedent by agreeing to pay for warranty claims on modified vehicles.

As you suggested, the customer has limited resources in a legal fight whereas a huge corporation has a multimillion dollar legal budget.

justpetef

I went through the same debate and ultimately decided not to get one - that in combination with the "limp mode" that only affects tuned cars sealed my decision.

That fact that there's so much debate regarding this topic is testament that no one really knows for certain. Best thing would be to call your dealership anonymously, perhaps, and flat out ask them?

cptdaz

Not necessarily. By refusing to provide proof of cause for claim rejection, the dealer is essentially in violation of FTC law. If I was in such situation, I'd kindly re-emphasize that fact to them. If they continually refuse the request then it's a pretty clear cut case. It actually does matter who is right or wrong, since that's the party responsible for the legal cost; you don't pay lawyers upfront in a civil court.

While I don't have any experience with warranty claims, I do have some dealings with FTC violations and consumer advocacy lawyers. Like nanoflex already stated, in all cases, the companies decided to settle outside of court by paying me and my legal costs. I think there's a misconception that big corporations pay for expensive lawyers to help them win any case but the reality is those lawyers are there to help them avoid legal cases and large percentage of the incidents are either satisfied before consumers start looking at legal options or settled out of court.

gthal

Although I think you are "right" I would bet your experience with a dealer and warranty claims if they knew the car was modified would be different. The assumption that is flawed is that they are knowledgeable about the law, care about it, or are willing to be reasonable. Some dealers would... many wouldn't. There are stories (some here) where folks have had headers on their car and the dealer would not deal with an engine misfire issue under warranty blaming the mods for the issue. The owner was unsuccessful in getting them to deal with it and just fixed the issue himself and on his dime. It may have been wrong, unreasonable and in contradiction to previous court rulings but it still happens.

IMO, there is a difference between being "right" and actually being successful without a huge fight that most people (the dealer relies on this) aren't prepared to have. If the world were "fair" and the "right" result was always what you got, it would be a very different place than it is today. Boy, that makes me sound cynical doesn't it

cptdaz

I see. Like I said, I don't have a lot of experience dealing with warranty claims (and hopefully won't have to in the future), so I would definitely defer to someone with more knowledge and experience on the topic. By the sound of it, I think it would be better to play it safe and reflash to stock setting should any work needs to be done on the vehicle.

Nanoflex

Is there any example of MB vehicles going to "limp mode" when aftermarket ECU's have been fitted..?

805Benz

Spoke with a good friend of mine who is a tech at MB. The ECU will not be aftermarket since it will be coming from MB. The second step is that you would have to take the car and the new ECU to MB dealer and have the tech program it.

Can they detect if the car has a normal tune. GENERALLY NO and they are limited to what they can view. So you are fine for service and other things. The problem is if something major goes wrong with a high valued car, they call in the big guys who will come out and be able to see the ECU details and ect...

If you were able to swap out the ECU with the secondary one that you had properly prepared, they will know that the ECU has been swapped but they wont know you had a tune

Merc63

It seemed to be isolated to mostly 1 tuner from what I seen.

jvanbrecht

I am not sure exactly what details our cars, or any car for that matter, store in the ECU or the vehicles black box.

Many parameters get stored though, and I am guessing if you swap out the ECU (even if both were correctly married to the vehicles), there will be gaps of data missing, which would throw a red flag in any competent engineers mind..

This is why I believe that playing the shell game with ECU's will probably not work when a serious problem occurs.