All-Season or Winter Tires for C63?
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'11 C63, '22 GLS 63, Porsches, M3, M4
Thanks for the suggestion. I searched again on Tire Rack, and Conti Extreme DWS is highest rated among all-seasons in this size, so that's what I'm going with.
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From: Desert
02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
DWS is a great tire in most conditions, not so great in snow and terrible on slush or ice. I had them on the 335i rwd and they worked fine in the cold, but I went to dedicated winter / summer tires after the first snow hit which then froze over. Never drove it in the summer, but now have PS2s for that.
Glad we're sharing opinions, the LM 60s were not bad by any means and good on snow / ice, but our roads get cleared up quickly too so the michelins should work well around here 99% of the time, or so I hope
Glad we're sharing opinions, the LM 60s were not bad by any means and good on snow / ice, but our roads get cleared up quickly too so the michelins should work well around here 99% of the time, or so I hope
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From: Desert
02 CLK 55 AMG,09 C63 loaded with P30
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Wayne
Driving Pirelli M+S shod AWD vehicles in East Texas.
Last edited by venchka; Dec 13, 2011 at 10:34 AM.
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Is this your DD? I'm here in Maryland with you. We don't get enough snow for me to put winters or all-seasons on the car. If it snows, I park it. We have to be careful on cold tires, but you will get some heat in them even in temps below 40 degrees. I've never had a problem. If the 63 was my DD/beater car maybe I'd throw some all-seasons on it.
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'11 C63, '22 GLS 63, Porsches, M3, M4
Is this your DD? I'm here in Maryland with you. We don't get enough snow for me to put winters or all-seasons on the car. If it snows, I park it. We have to be careful on cold tires, but you will get some heat in them even in temps below 40 degrees. I've never had a problem. If the 63 was my DD/beater car maybe I'd throw some all-seasons on it.
I've been trying to find the precise relationship between ambient temp and tire grip for summer tires (ie, a curve), but no luck so far.
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Winter grip depends on more than just the compound; testing provides some of the answer. Having a winter compound is a necessary but not sufficient condition. I use 7 centigrade about 45 F on a regular basis as my indication to change from summers to winters.
Look at that 1010 tire site for the sort of diagram you want that makes sense. You are over thinking an issue, I suspect.
Last edited by grane; Dec 13, 2011 at 09:02 AM.
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'11 C63, '22 GLS 63, Porsches, M3, M4
Why do think it is a curve and not a step function?
Winter grip depends on more than just the compound; testing provides some of the answer. Having a winter compound is a necessary but not sufficient condition. I use 7 centigrade about 45 F on a regular basis as my indication to change from summers to winters.
Look at that 1010 tire site for the sort of diagram you want that makes sense. You are over thinking an issue, I suspect.
Winter grip depends on more than just the compound; testing provides some of the answer. Having a winter compound is a necessary but not sufficient condition. I use 7 centigrade about 45 F on a regular basis as my indication to change from summers to winters.
Look at that 1010 tire site for the sort of diagram you want that makes sense. You are over thinking an issue, I suspect.
Do you have a specific link within the 1010 site?
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From 1010 tires:
http://www.1010tires.com/store/t-Winter-Tires-USA.aspx
This may be of interest.........
Severe Snow Conditions Grading
On February 1, 1999 the Rubber Manufacturer's Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) introduced a winter tire grading.
These tires are specifically designed for severe snow conditions and meet snow traction performance requirements. Tires meeting this standard are marked with a pictograph of a snow flake within a mountain peak . This standard helps drivers choose a tire that will help make their winter driving safer.
Wayne
http://www.1010tires.com/store/t-Winter-Tires-USA.aspx
This may be of interest.........
Severe Snow Conditions Grading
On February 1, 1999 the Rubber Manufacturer's Association (RMA) and the Rubber Association of Canada (RAC) introduced a winter tire grading.
These tires are specifically designed for severe snow conditions and meet snow traction performance requirements. Tires meeting this standard are marked with a pictograph of a snow flake within a mountain peak . This standard helps drivers choose a tire that will help make their winter driving safer.
Last edited by venchka; Dec 13, 2011 at 10:42 AM.
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'11 C63, '22 GLS 63, Porsches, M3, M4
^ Thanks much for the graph. It looks somewhat generalized, so I'm not sure how much to trust it, but it's the most specific graph I've seen so far. If the graph is accurate, some implications:
- All three categories of tires have the same "performance" (however that's defined) at 7 C (45 F, not 40 F).
- Winter tires have poor performance at warmer temps.
- The drop in performance at lower temps for summer tires is somewhat gradual, rather than sudden. So not a dramatic difference between 40 F vs 35 F.
- Summer tires need warm temps (above say 70 F) to get close to their full performance. It's not that everything above 40 F is equally good.
Thoughts?
- All three categories of tires have the same "performance" (however that's defined) at 7 C (45 F, not 40 F).
- Winter tires have poor performance at warmer temps.
- The drop in performance at lower temps for summer tires is somewhat gradual, rather than sudden. So not a dramatic difference between 40 F vs 35 F.
- Summer tires need warm temps (above say 70 F) to get close to their full performance. It's not that everything above 40 F is equally good.
Thoughts?
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^ Thanks much for the graph. It looks somewhat generalized, so I'm not sure how much to trust it, but it's the most specific graph I've seen so far. If the graph is accurate, some implications:
- All three categories of tires have the same "performance" (however that's defined) at 7 C (45 F, not 40 F).
- Winter tires have poor performance at warmer temps.
- The drop in performance at lower temps for summer tires is somewhat gradual, rather than sudden. So not a dramatic difference between 40 F vs 35 F.
- Summer tires need warm temps (above say 70 F) to get close to their full performance. It's not that everything above 40 F is equally good.
Thoughts?
- All three categories of tires have the same "performance" (however that's defined) at 7 C (45 F, not 40 F).
- Winter tires have poor performance at warmer temps.
- The drop in performance at lower temps for summer tires is somewhat gradual, rather than sudden. So not a dramatic difference between 40 F vs 35 F.
- Summer tires need warm temps (above say 70 F) to get close to their full performance. It's not that everything above 40 F is equally good.
Thoughts?
on this chart.
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I think you guys are taking the chart too literally. The purpose is to show that as temperature changes, the available traction of various tires changes. At around 7 deg celcius, summer tires begin to provide poor traction as their compound gets too cold. The chart isn't trying to say that winter tire traction is as good as summer tire or all season traction at 7 deg. Rather, it is trying to show the impact of temperature on the tread compound and its ability to provide grip. The "rule of thumb" is that at 7 deg, summer tire compounds provide poor grip even on dry pavement. Think of the diagram as more of a "suitability" chart for various tire compounds at various temps.
Anyone who has used winter tires in summer would attest to how poor the traction is. Likewise, if you use summer tires in very cold winter temps (even on dry pavement), you can attest to how poor traction is. All seasons are always in the middle... never "bad" but never "great" either.
Anyone who has used winter tires in summer would attest to how poor the traction is. Likewise, if you use summer tires in very cold winter temps (even on dry pavement), you can attest to how poor traction is. All seasons are always in the middle... never "bad" but never "great" either.
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I think you guys are taking the chart too literally. The purpose is to show that as temperature changes, the available traction of various tires changes. At around 7 deg celcius, summer tires begin to provide poor traction as their compound gets too cold. The chart isn't trying to say that winter tire traction is as good as summer tire or all season traction at 7 deg. Rather, it is trying to show the impact of temperature on the tread compound and its ability to provide grip. The "rule of thumb" is that at 7 deg, summer tire compounds provide poor grip even on dry pavement. Think of the diagram as more of a "suitability" chart for various tire compounds at various temps.
Anyone who has used winter tires in summer would attest to how poor the traction is. Likewise, if you use summer tires in very cold winter temps (even on dry pavement), you can attest to how poor traction is. All seasons are always in the middle... never "bad" but never "great" either.
Anyone who has used winter tires in summer would attest to how poor the traction is. Likewise, if you use summer tires in very cold winter temps (even on dry pavement), you can attest to how poor traction is. All seasons are always in the middle... never "bad" but never "great" either.
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Just because it's generalized doesn't mean it's not accurate
That's what I meant when I said the curve is generalized. But if someone is going to bother with showing two axes with numerical labels, and then plot curves, why not do it accurately, and also define what "performance" means? We still need to know how grip varies with temp, regardless of the type of tire we're using, so that we can drive appropriately. For example, can I go flat out on my summer tires at 45 or 50 F? Can I drive on them at all at 35 or 30 F? Sure seems like it's not simply at step function at 40 F.
As far as a step function goes, consider the transition from dry pavement to hitting black ice shod with a set of UHP summer tires even at a slow speed or while braking.
That's why I change from my Hankook V12 to Icebears when the average daytime temp hits 45 as well as changing my transmission and ABC settings according to conditions as recommended by the CL OM.
As an aside, I go to Blizzaks on the G500 one season of the year so I can drive up and down! snowy hills and leave CL in the garage. You have a Cayenne, yes?
Your driving environment may vary. Safety first.
Last edited by grane; Dec 14, 2011 at 08:36 AM.
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What I think you want is a controlled set of tests of a given range of tires on a specific car going from summer conditions to ice and snow. Say the Continentals, Pirelli, or Bridgestone range from summer to all season to winter. Tire Rackhas a series of tests like this that have become quite sophisticated.
As far as a step function goes, consider the transition from dry pavement to hitting black ice shod with a set of UHP summer tires even at a slow speed or while braking.
That's why I change from my Hankook V12 to Icebears when the average daytime temp hits 45 as well as changing my transmission and ABC settings according to conditions as recommended by the CL OM.
As an aside, I go to Blizzaks on the G500 one season of the year so I can drive up and down! snowy hills and leave CL in the garage. You have a Cayenne, yes?
Your driving environment may vary. Safety first.
As far as a step function goes, consider the transition from dry pavement to hitting black ice shod with a set of UHP summer tires even at a slow speed or while braking.
That's why I change from my Hankook V12 to Icebears when the average daytime temp hits 45 as well as changing my transmission and ABC settings according to conditions as recommended by the CL OM.
As an aside, I go to Blizzaks on the G500 one season of the year so I can drive up and down! snowy hills and leave CL in the garage. You have a Cayenne, yes?
Your driving environment may vary. Safety first.
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Will charts do?
Consider doing your own research and reporting back.
I am going to the gym. Punkt.
Last edited by grane; Dec 14, 2011 at 11:20 AM.
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That's what I meant when I said the curve is generalized. But if someone is going to bother with showing two axes with numerical labels, and then plot curves, why not do it accurately, and also define what "performance" means? We still need to know how grip varies with temp, regardless of the type of tire we're using, so that we can drive appropriately. For example, can I go flat out on my summer tires at 45 or 50 F? Can I drive on them at all at 35 or 30 F? Sure seems like it's not simply at step function at 40 F.
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We're running Michelin X-Ice 2's in the 225/45/18 size on our C63. They've been good in the rain and cold weather but we have yet to get any big accumulations yet - hopefully we'll be able to see what they can do in the snow soon.
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I'd go to the 1010 tire and tire rack and look for their comparisons tests and chart of the three types of tires in winter conditions. They have charts of braking, starting, going through curves, all sorts of stuff, videos, etc.
Consider doing your own research and reporting back.
I am going to the gym. Punkt.
Consider doing your own research and reporting back.
I am going to the gym. Punkt.
I've also found that driving the car can increase the tire pressure by 1 to 5 psi, presumably warming up the tires by around 10 to 50 F. So closely tracking tire pressures (using your TPM) and starting temp may be an effective way to determine if summer tires are sufficiently warmed up to be driven in colder weather.
