2012C63AMG

I am confused since I cant read your charts on your website.. I am simply telling you I CAN NOT READ THEM. The thumbnail does not enlarge to the point where a responsible person can read them. I am trying to help you out by making your site better thats all. AGAIN I CAN NOT READ YOUR DYNO GRAPHS THEY ARE TOOOO SMALLLLLLL

Kaiba

bb.com/images/imported/2012/09/7983076559_ef29f26586_h-1.jpg

Change BB by what you know.

You will get extra large.

Posted by Jean

"C63 Black Series stock vs Tuned"

Again by Jean :

"However, as mentioned whether SAE or STD the difference is the same and thats ~40 rwhp gain."

Kaiba

12HP should be fine for headers , no ?? Actually I'm using stock mids as the C63 Coupe have only 1 res. Removing that res. was definitely too loud !!
I'm running headers/stock mids/Cargraphic Xpipe/Cargraphic silencers.

"We do not need access to the stock file because we create our own".
So what if your tune goes bad ? Can't go back to stock ??
What if I compare your stock file you sent me with the real stock file of my car ( backed up when I did the first dyno as stock ).

Thanks for the offer but I prefer to get my $1400 back for the tune rather than $400 for something I don't have a use ( if only the tune would work , the tuner would a highly enjoyable tool ).

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

2012C63AMG,

Thanks for pointing that out, we'll address it soon.

Here are three dyno charts that have been posted a few times on this forum as well as others. I understand SAE is the standard for posting charts but please bare with me.

We like to use the gain (difference) as a measure of whether the software works or not. Different dyno's will provide different peak numbers and even the same types of dyno's will vary depending on location and conditions. Im sure this has been discussed to death on here already...

2012 C63 with tune:


2012 C63 with tune & X-Pipe:


2012 C63 Black Series:


** The first two charts have been posted here by their owners in older threads already.

** I've also made it clear on this forum and others that the Black Series stock run was taken in unfavorable conditions...

** None of the horsepower figures we've posted are out of the norm or excessive in anyway.

We've tuned many cars and this would be the first of such an issue. You can find threads of customers who did not dyno and are running great times at the track, some customers have done both.

____

Kaiba,

I am not sure how to move forward until we can address a few points.

First, you're expecting 50-60 rwhp from the tune over a C63 Black Series with Headers and an X-Pipe installed. THIS IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

You did not dyno the car stock, a stock dyno would be a stock C63 Black Series (stock headers, software and X-Pipe). You do not have this. You should definitely see a 50-60 horsepower gain over stock with everything installed.

You are in France and are using Dyno's we are not familiar with and we do not have a stock run to gage the gains AT ALL.

Once again 50-60 over the headers is not going to happen.

Second, you state your car dyno'd at 500 with the headers and X-pipe but no software. The headers and x-pipe will yield much more than 12 horsepower.

Third, you specifically in detail told us that this tuner does not tune "these cars" assuming C63's and more accurately C63 Black Series. He then opened your computer and custom dyno tuned it.

You've paid us for software which was not even installed at first... by first shop which lead you to second shop. Second shop sold you a service. The service was to custom tune your car using our software.

I am not sure how else to explain that you are using our software even if only part of it. You paid us for software which you are using and then you paid someone else to take what we sold you and to modify it.

You're asking for a refund for something that you will continue to use. The Personal Tuner is just a means of writing the software, the software that you claim does not work is what you're using.

This would be no different that buying a car, paying a shop to install a custom turbo kit then trying to lemon law back to the manufacturer the car for not making power with said turbo kit installed...

___

Now you are also asking us to take part in a tuning contest from across the world against a tuner who is using our software... It would also be down right irresponsible to partake in such a challenge in an effort to make more horsepower than someone using our software!

Making 10 extra horsepower does not prove you to be a great tuner...

Keep in mind you also only told us of the car not making power AFTER you had already gotten a custom dyno tune (please read above, using our software).

Your expectations were inaccurate and we now do not even have a baseline to gauge the gains with...

___

As mentioned I do believe your being honest in regards to what you relating back to us but your using inaccurate information and are refusing to even acknowledge that you paid for a service to custom tune our software. How can you expect us to inquire such costs? To basically pay someone to take our stuff and taylor it to you... assuming this was actually done and done correctly hoping it's going to prove reliable...

Once again, the Personal Tuner is now useless given that someone has it's contents, you can send it back but you still maintain possession of our software!

Your expected 50-60 horsepower from a tune over a C63 with headers and an X-Pipe is no reasonable.

You ended up paying for an extra service using what you purchased from us!

You simply can not pay for something, pay someone else to modify it and then ask to return it while actually keeping it.

I do not think you're intentionally trying to be dishonest or pulling a fast one but please understand that you were misled and you paid extra for a service from someone else.

** As proof you DME has not been opened poorly and you now have a scar on it to prove it...

Sincerely,

Jean Sada

Kaiba

THANK YOU FOR THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please check the first graph I posted. I can send it again to you.

I even can find another dyno run I made 1 month ago when visiting the shop for the first time !!!!! I will get that tomorrow !!

My car WAS dynoed prior to all modifications.
499hp !!

Then dynoed with headers = 512 hp WITHOUT SOFTWARE

I'm waiting from others to tell if its good or not.

You shooted yourself in the foot on this one................

False , read above.

I'm not asking OVER the headers...... Your dyno says 50-60 TUNE ONLY. Thats all I'm saying

Read again above.
Don't know about headers & x-pipe. I don't think anyone installed headers by now on C63 Black so how would you know ??

Again , he opened it first to BACKUP my stock file....... Is it that hard to understand ??
He already tuned more than 10 C63 ( not BLACK SERIES ) so he is pretty aware about AMG tuning.
Please check his Facebook page ( http://www.facebook.com/dmperformance.France )

Wrong.
Yes the first shop probably didn't installed the software correctly. BUT I installed the software MYSELF at the second shop and got 527 hp. Again , what is it that you don't understand in this sentence ??
I will go to the shop tomorrow and capture a dyno run stock vs Velos. I'm tired of all this. This dyno run will prove who is right and I will post it here , EVEN IF I'M WRONG !!

Wrong again... I can get you the mail I sent the first day telling the car is not making power even before installer the custom tune.....

I see you are trying to keep your head up and that has all my respect. But I have all the mails if needed.
I sent that mail on 09/25.

-----------

Hi Guys ,


Just a quick update/disappointment.


My shop installed my headers/mids this week. He just did the test with the tuner.


Stock file = +12hp with headers/mids

Tuned file , no headers = no change

Tuned file , headers = +2nm of torque , no HP change…..

I’ll have all the graphs later today for you to compare. Is a full reimbursement an option ? I can have him do a custom dyno tune but I don’t want to pay twice.

Please let me know today latest !

--------------

You can see I was already asking for a refund....

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

Kaiba,

Your now telling me that you got 499 rwhp from a completely stock C63 Black series. Made 512 with headers and an X-pipe installed then made 527 with our tune?

So you picked up 28 rwhp with our tune, headers and X-Pipe? This is what you're claiming correct?

Lets not get in semantics but I too have emails... same ones you do, you've stated that you were unsure of the first shops abilities, etc...

So you went and found them unfit. So at this point none of our software was used and you first asked for a refund and this when i told you making 0 horsepower was practically impossible.

Which proved to be true as it turns out it was not written at first. With the personal tuner you can not improperly write, it is written or it is not...

So first request for refund was based on incompetence...

I sent a new file which was exactly the same as the first just to confirm you select the correct file when reading the file description. Turns out the file was never written.

You told me via email you made 10HP (after a file was written) and already had the other shop make 40HP.

At this point... everything i've already stated has already transpired. Everything from previous post.

You wrote me via e-mail:
"Basically I don’t think the shop will ever use your software as I’m one of the only 5 Black Series in France…………………. I don’t know if they made a copy or not but even though they had you are selling a tune ( basically just a file ! )"

Now he's a large AMG Tuner and has tuned many... Since when? Last week.

What you dont understand is what you pay for is "just a file" and said tuner now has it, so sending the personal tuner back is useless as you will keep it's contents.

Everything else has already been explained in my previous post.

Kaiba

I don't know the difference between rwhp or hp.
But yes , the car COMPLETELY stock made 499 hp. ( 517 advertisted by AMG )
512 hp with headers and x-pipe
527 with your tune

Pretty far from your "50-60 everything installed" and SOOOOOO far from your "53 hp gain tune only"

Yes it was ! By me !! It injected myself the file when we did the run at the second shop !!! I told that million times.
Please check again all my posts.
I don't see why you don't understand that my issue is on the power delivered by your tune.... DON'T TELL ME I DIDNT USED YOUR TUNE BECAUSE I WRITED THE TUNE MYSELF ON THE SECOND DYNO !! And we got 527 hp

OMG .... Two solutions. Or you guys are completely blinded by money , or you just don't understand my , probably , bad english.

He tuned 10+ C63 AMG STANDARD. I told you it was his first C63 AMG BLACK SERIES.

Don't try to get away with the shop bad experience or whatever.

Please just reply on the figures !!

500hp stock
512hp with headers but no software
527hp with headers & your software

Don't go into a long post. Only explain this vs your advertised +53hp gain on tune only

And that : "You should definitely see a 50-60 horsepower gain over stock with everything installed"

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

Kaiba,

HP (horse power) and BHP (brake horsepower) are commonly used to describe the horsepower rated at the engine or crankshaft.

RWHP (rear wheel horsepower) is the result of the horsepower rated at the wheels. Rear wheel horsepower is found once you subtract the drivetrain loss from the BHP figure.

For example a C63 Black Series is rated at 510 HP/BHP from factory.

Our Dyno Jets automatically assume an 18.5% drivetrain loss when calculating horsepower which is why our cars will dyno ~420-440 rwhp on a Dyno Jet depending on conditions.

With headers, software and x-pipe's we generally get ~480-500 rwhp which results in a 50-60 rwhp gain with everything installed. On our Dyno's.

Was your car ran on the same type of dyno all three times? if yes, was it calibrated the same each time?

Kaiba

Hi guys , thanks for the explanation. Its clear for me now.


As much as I don't know anything about hp , rwhp etc.. ( not anymore ) , I don't know what are the dyno used.
It was the same shop's dyno the first ( stock ) and second ( stock / headers no software / headers software ) time.
Another shop's dyno the last time.

First shop is : www.dmperformance.fr
Second is : www.digiservices.fr
If that helps.

If that is a matter of fact , this is why I was asking a stock vs tuned dyno run , recorded , on the same dyno , same time , same conditions etc...

It seems you now understand what my concern is. I don't blame anyone ( nor you , nor the shop ) for the "quality" of the tune. If you advertised +20hp on the website and I got +20hp on the dyno , FINE. I know I would have paid for that result.

Matter is I paid for a +53xxxxhp gain and its not happening. No matter what way you look at it.

I will make that stock vs tuned record dyno run next weekend. I told the shop I'm coming to check for the headers so they won't have any chance to change dyno calibrations. I will privately send you the results first for you to check.

I hope this will put an end to our "disagreement" , no matter wich way.

PS : you still didn't reply on the figures

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

Kaiba,

Your car is getting a reading of 499 stock. We'd need more info on the dyno.

At 499 stock you're already making what we make to the wheels on our dyno's tuned with headers and x-pipe assuming it's providing wheel horsepower figures.

Our advertised figures would be accurate for a dyno jet or a similarly reading dyno.

In other words we need to measure horsepower using the same or at least similar system.

**it would be like measuring 100 yards in meters and saying your only getting ~91 meters and it's not long enough because your expecting to see 100 meters when in fact it's 100 yards.

Kaiba

So , after the "the tuner opened the ECU" lame excuse , the dyno is the new excuse ?

Come on , no one is idiot. No matter what are the readings on a particular dyno :

+something is just +something. No matter what conditions based on the fact that the conditions are the same for the before and the after.....

On the same dyno , I should get +53xxxxhp. That's all ....

You are just making it worse with all the blabla....You are the tuners.... How can you come to this kind of conclusion ...
I'm just using common sense and you know I'm right...

It could be so easy if you just refunded me directly.... Now we are battleing like kids .....

PS : still didn't reply about the figures

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

There are no excuses.

Your mind has been made up for some time that our software and Personal Tuner did not work. I'm getting tired of repeating but it was not even written at first and when it was written it was soon taken by your tuner.

To you it is just a file but to us it is more than just a file.

We have no proof on our end other than you and your tuners word after playing with our software and that his now works. Your DME has been opened and scared... Which only confirms the file has been taken not that anything custom has even been done...

You refuse to accept anything that we are saying/writing because your mind is made up...

You've misunderstood the power ratings and how their advertised and once more your mind is made up...

We will do all in our power to make a customer happy but your asking to keep our software because to you it's just a file and you want a full refund. Thats a bit unreasonable given we have nothing proving that your not actually using our software (unmodified) even after it was read out.

** Assuming it was read and modified, we are not going to pay to have you contract someone to custom tweak our software on the dyno... Thats just ridiculous!

We've tried multiple times to explain and work something out but you've followed through on your promise to run to the forums if your demands are not met. It seems that you understand you've over paid for software and would like to not have inquired so much cost...

The only thing you want to see is a 53 HP figure which i've tried to explain will vary depending on the dyno used and the conditions. However, to you all this is meaningless chatter and impossible... Since you are not seeing 53 HP.

Assuming the DME was not opened and our "file" was not taken out and "modified" we would have tried to explain and if that did not work, we would have issued a refund on good faith that it was reverted back to stock but not after it has been taken...

However, we are not paying you to take our file, modify it (no proof of this) and then refund you to keep our software.

2 Days ago we received this sentence via e-mail
Have a great weekend.

propain

Why is there always so much drama on this forum when it comes to tuners and tuning the C63??

I have to say I have enjoyed my time away. The only drama on the Vette forum's is dropping exhaust valves.

Kaiba

I said million times before that the ECU was opened to BACKUP my original file from the car.
I understand you never do backup's of customer's ECU before tuning. That's not my concern.

You don't have any proof that my car is runing your tune. I have the proofs that your tune is +12hp instead of +5xhp TUNE ONLY

I will only reply with that quote from you :

"You should definitely see a 50-60 horsepower gain over stock with everything installed"

I'm fed up trying to find solutions with you.

I will do the comparo between stock and your tune next week and post the results on every MB forums so people know you are lying about the figures.

Weistec received copies of the mails you sent me from the "engineering team". They are just laughing at you......

Have a great weekend too.

kasp123

I am in the market for ECU upgrade and thread like this confuses me.
I was seriously considering getting a tune from Velos but after seeing all this argument with unsatisfied customer, I am not sure anymore...

Kaiba

I can't speak for their "base" C63 tune.It seems a lot of guys are enjoying it.

They said I'm the only unsatisfied customer lol. I still don't think they actually tuned many C63 BS unlike what they are telling.

( they confirmed by mail that their C63 BS tune is basically the same as a standard C63 tune.... What a pitty ... )

So if they treat their unsatisfied customer like that , I hope for you not to be unsatisfied......

Just don't take their advertised hp gain for granted....

You will hear more next week as soon as I record the stock vs velos tunes.

By now , I would put my money on Weistec for a good tune.

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

That never came from anyone here, it is simply an issue of us trying to explain how you were taken advantage of and lied to by your "tuner" which you are now leaving again..

To make it clear, the software version and hardware numbers are the same. That is all. You can verify this with STAR or something similar. The program code is different depending on normal C63, PP, or BS. No information that really matters to the public but just re-iterating so the public does not get the wrong information.

Thanks and sorry this continues to drag on. Unfortunate case of mild "extorsion" if I dare use the word. Believe me in any normal situation it is much easier to bend to these "demands" but not when it is so clear cut.

Best Regards,

_ Omar M.

Rock

Why don't you guys take this off line and find a mutually acceptable solution.

oliver@velosdesignwerks.com

I tried if you look at the second or third post he says "Omar is taking care of me". Then I found out his initial request was to keep the personal tuner and that the software was not only "backed up" by other tuners but also still in his car (he states it may have been modified, fact remains it is still in his car and the tuner was not capable of tuning before that which is why they opened his ECU).

It is somewhat embarrassing and frustrating to deal with this but since this is public and he insists on threatening us publicly and via email with defaming us publicly we have no choice but to clarify any mistruths and remain transparent.

OlegKouz

I will be going to Velos on Wednesday [non PP 2012 C63 coupe] and will be doing a before/after dyno.

I have no doubt that everything will work out and am extremely confident with them thus far.

I will post my before/after dynos.

Kaiba

LOL .....

I told you million times already I can send the tuner back if you want. I don't have any need of it...
And how did you found out the tune is still in my car ??????? do you have any proof ??
All your informations are based on your imagination. The only proofs you will see in this useless thread are my dyno graphs that shows a useless tune....

I will have proofs next week. I hope for you they are not proofs of a useless 1400$ tune...

The only solution you gave me was to send you the tuner + my ECU ( 1500 EUR value !!!!!! ) for a $400 refund !!!!!!!!! LOOOOOL

I had no choice but to let that public as you definitely never wanted to find a good solution.

propain

Let me get this right:

You bought a hand held tuner and tuned your car with it. Then went to the dyno and didn't feel you got the results that were advertised and now you want your money back?

You can see how this would be a problem for the tuner right? You are pretty much asking for a free tune.

The tuner could simply eat it however and give you a refund when you send the unit back in. Asking for a refund is a douche move in this scenario but I would just do it and black list you forever and let everyone know not to deal with you.

So VELOS, just give the guy his money back and move on. There will always be people like him in business. You eat it and you move on. Him kicking and screaming as wrong as he might be is bad for business and you will lose more money than you would if you just refund him.

My 2 cents on this ridiculous thread....

Kaiba

So basically you would be paying for a useless tune and incorrect figures ??????

I know you are american but still....

They are giving wrong numbers , trying to make as much profit as possible. Thats based on false informations. That's all that bugs me.

If its an issue I can revert my car back to stock LOOOL and send the useless tuner. You guys just don't understand... Who advised I still have the velos tune on my car ??? No one... They are just basing their facts on IMAGINATION !

Its not about my feelings as you said. Its based on dyno results .... OMG don't you understand anything ? I'm basing my doubts on FACTS.

So to sum up :

1 - the tune doesn't work
2 - my car is running a CUSTOM tune , not Velos tune.
3 - I don't care about the tuner since its useless ...
4 - Use your brain.

And you will get all the proofs you need next week. I will be screaming way louder then

NellyRod

Well said Propain. My thoughts exactly. This is a classic case of someone trying to get something for free. The worst part is that this thread is getting ridiculous, and regardless of who's right, it does create questions regarding the product. I'm not saying it's good or bad. Just that it creates questions. I personally still am considering a VELOS tune for my BS. I would just like to see some more real world data. Any BS owners get a tune and run a before and after 1/4 mile?

Kaiba

Yeah ask their imaginary TONS of customers !!
Tons of customers and no other dyno sheet than the one they provide.... LOL