austinauflick

Thank God a man of reason joined in.

Diabolis: Imagine if I bought my 507 as planned and the same day my friend got a great deal on a new '13 P31. To celebrate we go to the dyno shop. Now of your theory of th 507 having the same output is true, this means we'll have a marginal difference of power output at the wheels on the same dyno on the same day. There's even a chance my friend dyno's higher than my 507. Can you imagine the classaction lawsuit they'd be risking by allowing my higher rated factory car dynoed less than the lower output variant? Let me tell you my experience of business would tell me that this is not something a world class multinational company like Mercedes Benz would allow. If you haven't been to business school, you needn't apply your input here. If you have some formal business education/experience then you must see my point here. The idiom applies "if two people are equally educated on a particular matter, they rarely disagree."

NickAMG

The real question is, did you guys "break in" the cars before you dynoed? Lol sorry I had to add some humor to this!

austinauflick

Lol I knew someone would bring it up! Haha!

SonnyakaPig

It's just called a class action. Adding "lawsuit" at the end is redundant. And, no, I can't imagine a law firm spending so much money to bring such a stupid lawsuit.

Rarely disagree? I don't know about that.

Regarding the discussion on horsepower with these cars. There is far too much variation in dyno results from dyno to dyno to make a determination. Same dyno same day and same octane with a BS, 507 and a P31 will be the only way to know for sure. My guess is BS is the highest by about 10-15 hp, then 507 and P31 are probably the same.

austinauflick

Thank you for providing the technicals and your disagreement with an age old idiom, Sonny. In regards to the 507 power discussion, I'm happy to put the factory 507 car on the dyno next to a factory P31 car. Would that settle this?

SonnyakaPig

I'm interested in the results.

_timothy

correct me if I'm wrong, but this already happened with a BS vs power output of a MCT P31. they were about the same

austinauflick

The tread I reference in page one has a BS dynoing at consistent 450's. Mean while the Owner of OE mentioned that the highest he had seen of a PP car was 417.

SonnyakaPig

That's what I would think.

A very unscientific way that I compare these cars' power outputs is by the traps we see in the magazine tests and from some of our members' own testing. It seems that the BS is consistently 1-2 mph higher than P31s (Although that's just my observation), but sometimes, a P31's trap is right up there with a BS.

_timothy

it sounds like you have made up your mind regardless of what others think. so lease/buy the 507 car and be happy with it. just know that the 507 engine IS the P31 engine with a different tune at best. based on the weistec discussions or the PL discussions, until i see a side by side vbox run of the two cars, you know my opinion.

SonnyakaPig

The results you're referencing are probably from different dynos. So no consistency.

Why should a CBS dyno more than an E63 (with an m156)? It shouldn't. 450 whp is too high for these cars. That would likely be over 540 bhp. So, the dyno isn't reading accurately.

_timothy

hell, my 2011 non MCT, non PP got several 440whp runs on a mustang dyno not too long ago as modified. unlikely, lol, but I'll take it . i suspect its the vorsteiner CF front lip maximum stickercharge boost.

Diabolis

Hey Pickles,

I am not disputing that the ECU programming and throttle curve on a BS may be somewhat different than that on a P31 or a 507 car, nor am I saying that the P31 and the 507 are going to have absolutely identical ECU coding. What I do maintain, however, is that the P31 car is underrated by MB and that it does put out close to 500 hp at the crank as demonstrated by everyone that has ever dynoed it, which again is pretty much the same number that the BS puts out. A 10 (or for that matter 20) hp difference on a 500 hp motor amounts to 2 (or 4) % and is not going to make any noticeable difference in the real world.

Furthermore, marketing indeed plays a major role as a newer, updated car replacing a previous model will never have less hp than the one it replaces, nor will a lesser model (C vs. E) ever have more power on paper than the larger one. How many cars do you think MB would sell in the last year of the M156 before a completely new model hits the stores if it announced that the car would still only have 481 hp, or how many people would buy the Black Series knowing that it was only a body kit, wider wheels and a different suspension? It's simple economics. As for the ECU tune itself, they're not going to spend thousands of dollars to re-invent the proverbial wheel (or ECU code) on a car that's already obsolete. Sure, maybe change the throttle response a bit or maybe even find another 5 hp here or there (basically what the tuners do on a non-restricted P31), but that's about it. The engine is the same all the way form the intake to the exhaust and so is the transmission. Again, unless the car is artificially restricted (like the non-P31 C63), there is only so much you can do by varying throttle response and ignition timing. Once you start changing other things, then yes, there's more power to be had, but there is no magic you can perform on a mechanically identical car and have it develop more power from the same power plant.

Cheers,
Doug

Diabolis

A class-action lawsuit because your friend's car could outperform yours? Are you kidding me? If the car doesn't put out the advertised power (507 HP SAE) and MB claims it does, then sure, that may be false advertising, although even this wouldn't necessarily work because otherwise I guess all of the mediocre tuners like Velos would be already bankrupt or tied up in court. If my P31 car performs better than expected, there is zero liability nor a basis for a claim by anyone. No, I am not a lawyer, but I'd like some of whatever it is you've been smoking. And I also haven't been to business school (although I do successfully run my own business), however, I do have two engineering degrees and last time I checked, math is math.

As for the saying that "if two people are equally educated on a particular matter, they rarely disagree", well, if that was true, we would all still be living in the dark ages. A few hundred years ago, everyone educated enough knew that the Earth was flat and at the centre of the universe and that people couldn't fly, but fortunately there was always someone that didn't know that and came up with a different theory or solution. At least that's how it is in physical sciences. As for God, religion or business - well, we did invent different deities and derivatives but look where that got us.

Diabolis

Of course he did - he is a tuner. Do you really expect him to say that his tune is worse (or equally as good as) than the MB factory tune? Do you expect a certain Jordan of 360 Forged / ADV.1 fame to tell us that his wheels are crap? C'mon. You can't be THAT stupid regardless of what you're posting here.

P.S. Most P31 cars are putting out 420-440 rwhp at the dyno (dyno make/model and calibration differences notwithstanding), with the ONLY statistically significant difference being the MCT vs. torque converter and possibly lighter wheels.

austinauflick

I'm sure that's the difference right there. So no argument from me.

austinauflick

Diabolis - You're right.

ML63 AMG

AMG has been lying about numbers for years... In fact, I do not think there is a single AMG spec that has been remotely accurate for over the decade. Everybody knows their 0-60mph specs are always a conservative joke.

And take a look at the new CLA45 as a perfect example, they claim 355hp, but preliminary dynos are already showing 390hp+ on bone stock motors so it does not interrupt with C63 sales etc.

AMG does this all the time, I am sorry to be the one that has to tell you Santa Clause and the Tooth Fairy do not exist... But that's life, c'est la vie.

Every number AMG states should be taken with massive AMG sized grain of salt

_timothy

Right, and given that a tuned p31 is a CBS is a 507..... Don't get your hopes up. Its still a rare, exceptional car. There is also just some marketing momentum. Nothing wrong w that.

austinauflick

Thank you for further supporting my point. AMG "lying" about numbers has always been favorable for their customers. In other words, they're "lying" in a good way. This is always considered acceptable so no one is arguing with you on AMG's typical underrating.

Lol @ your Santa Clause/Tooth Fairy comment! As if this "revelation" of their numbers being higher than advertised is a horrible thing. You don't know how to argue very well huh?

_timothy

his argument suggests what you've been denying: the stated power approaches actual output. p31 = cbs = 507. this entire debate is 100% moot until someone has trap times. even a dyno at different times of the same day could be largely incomparable.

austinauflick

What are you talking about? I never once denied that AMG underrated their motors and that's what his argument was/is.

Patrick B

The other factor in all of this gentlemen, is the fact that the engines are hand assembled.

The blocks will come out of the mold, but even then, some slight variations may exist from block to block. And the technician who assembles each engine may have slight variations in how they assemble each engine compared with the other techs; a minor difference in the weight of each piston could affect power output. I'm quite certain that if you took 15 engines out of each of our cars and tested them on an actual engine dyno, you'd get 15 different results. I suspect that all of them would produce at least the minimum rated power for the model they came out of, but some could significantly exceed it.

I'm not sure if AMG physically dynos each engine prior to installation in each car, or if they simply dynoed the initial builds and then ran the normal assembly line process. Given that the engines are hand-built, I'd like to assume that they dyno each engine prior to install, but I have no reason to believe it's actually true.

The number of variables that exist from engine to engine, dyno to dyno, and simply day to day means a variation of 5% (nearly 25 HP!) is a pretty normal swing.

Take dyno results, and the claims of tuners, with a grain of salt. All good comparisons on an individual car basis, but from one car vs another car, I wouldn't sweat it too much. Even on the same car on two different days, I wouldn't sweat the differences too much.

For me, the biggest thing about the BS are the additional performance enhancements beyond pure output power (namely the damn oil cooler / tranny cooler). The wide body does look better than my C63 Coupe as well....but what I really wish I had were the coolers for track days.



Patrick

Bardman

My dealer said that Australian 507's will have more power than the 507's in other countries!

Apparently it's because we are better drivers and can handle the power better...

_timothy

Hm, he is implicitly stating that the 507 is not rated higher in actuality than a P31 despite the marketing, thus P31 is underrated more so than the 507. You were saying is not possible based on your anecdotal experience in business. Unless, of course, I am grossly misunderstanding - in which case, I withdraw my commentary

etc etc. not going to fish up the other quotes.