To all who have a 507 on order!!!!
07-23-2013, 09:56 AM
#51
Senior Member
Back to the main point this argument flared up: "AMG reported to be behind on engines because of demand," and how is this possible if the P31 engine and 507 engine is the same.
I would figure the number of people purchasing C63's is up, not just because of the "special" Edition 507, but also because this may be the last hurrah for the 6.2L N/A V8. Does anyone know if there are delays on P31's too?
I'm jumping in for the N/A V8, then going with the 507 to get the extra power without the risk of voiding my warranty by throwing on a tune (I also got a pretty good deal on it).
I would figure the number of people purchasing C63's is up, not just because of the "special" Edition 507, but also because this may be the last hurrah for the 6.2L N/A V8. Does anyone know if there are delays on P31's too?
I'm jumping in for the N/A V8, then going with the 507 to get the extra power without the risk of voiding my warranty by throwing on a tune (I also got a pretty good deal on it).
07-23-2013, 09:58 AM
#52
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07-23-2013, 05:31 PM
#53
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I am not always right, but in this particular instance I know more than you do. Why? Because I know a thing or two about internal combustion engines and for the last 10+ years I've been tuning my own Porsche 928. I have spent hundreds of hours with the SharkTuner 2, dynoing the car, driving it on and off the track for many, many more hundreds of hours, modifying this or that and then tuning it some more. So, unlike you, I am not pulling this out of my a$$. I don't claim to be a good tuner or that I have done anything of the sort on a C63, only that I have had a fair bit of first-hand experience for an amateur and that I know how an internal combustion engine works. What I learned, I learned from my awesome P-car mechanic, who used to be the tuner and crew chief of Scott Goodyear's Porsche 944 Cup car back in the late eighties (so I trust you'll accept that his credentials and knowledge are not up for debate here), and then went from there on my own playing around with my own car.
All other things being equal, the performance of any particular naturally aspirated engine can be modified by adjusting the fuel and ignition maps and the valve lift duration. I am afraid I don't have the time (or patience) to explain to you what a stoichiometric ratio is and why it is important when burning gasoline in the presence of oxygen, nor the intricacies of internal combustion engine operation and valve lift and duration, but with a tune on a naturally aspirated engine you can essentially change the ignition timing (advance or retard), you can vary the fuel/air ratio (lean or rich), and on some engines like the M156 in the C63 you can also adjust the valve duration. The concept is exactly the same - you ignite a gas/air mixture and attempt to get maximum power from the combustion.
To gain performance, you can advance the ignition timing. Higher octane fuel burns more slowly and is less prone to detonation (knock), so the higher the octane rating of the fuel, the more you can advance the ignition timing before detonation occurs. However, you then risk having the engine grenade itself if the gas you’re putting in has a lower octane rating, so what any car manufacturer will do is set the timing at a point where even if you were to put in 87 octane gas you won’t destroy the motor. For any particular engine and temperature, the point at which a particular quantity of gasoline/air mixture will detonate is fixed so you can’t go beyond what is physically possible.
You also need to take into account the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline combustion and adjust the fuel map (air-to-fuel ratio or AFR) so that it is as close to the optimal 14.8:1 for complete burn of the gas, but again without damaging your engine. A stoichiometric mixture burns very hot and you will again experience detonation upon achieving the maximum cylinder pressure under high temperatures. You can use a stoichiometric mixture under very light load conditions, but then need to start running the AFR on the rich side to control (lower) the combustion temperatures and prevent detonation and overheating. Car manufacturers also have to worry about emissions and the catalytic converters (running a lean mixture will also kill your cats), so again, all engine manufacturers will tune the AFR so that you won’t destroy the motor or the cats. Again, as in the previous case, for any particular engine and temperature, the point at which a particular quantity of gasoline/air mixture will detonate is fixed so you can’t go beyond what is physically possible.
Lastly - and I have no personal experience with VVT tuning, but the principles are pretty basic - you need to take into account the fact that it takes time for the fuel and air mixture to be sucked into the cylinder, completely burned, and the exhaust gasses pushed out. The valve timing is controlled by the camshafts, and all other things being equal, you need to maximize camshaft lift and duration so that you can inject and burn more fuel and therefore get more power. However, seeing as the intake, combustion and exhaust phases all take a fixed amount of time to complete and you have a finite amount of time during which you can keep the valves open, the constraints here are physical and specific to the particular engine – basically, you want to maximize the valve lift and duration at high engine speeds without overlap at low speeds. In other words, VVT will give you more valve duration so that you can produce more power than what is achievable with a fixed duration camshaft. For any particular engine at a particular RPM point (with or without VVT), you can only keep the valves open for so long and again you can’t go beyond what is physically possible.
So much for the tuning primer.
Now, AFAIK the BS, P31 and 507 motor are identical all the way from the intake to the exhaust. If you have the same motor regardless of what the individual components are - I don't think anyone here has offered any evidence that the BS or 507 engine are in any way different form the P31, whether it’s the intake, injectors, free-flow exhaust, etc. - then there is only a finite amount of power you can get out of that particular engine using a particular gasoline. The non-P31 motor is restricted from the factory on purpose, and it is easy to remove the restriction and allow the maximum amount of fuel and air for the specific engine capacity to mix and burn, which will indeed give you more power. The P31 engine, on the other hand, isn't artificially restricted, and there is only a tiny amount of power to be gained by varying the fuel map and ignition timing, which comes at the expense of your safety margin or engine longevity. In other words, there is no magical business-school formula and you can’t miraculously come up with power out of nowhere.
So - can you get a little more power out of a tune written specifically for high-octane gas or lower altitudes (denser air hence more oxygen) for a P31, BS or 507 motor? Sure. Is it possible that the P31, BS and 507 have somewhat different tunes form the factory? Sure. Are the differences significant? To your bragging rights, sure. To everyone else concerned with actual, real-world performance improvements without overstressing the engine, they are non-existent.
Will an aftermarket tune damage your engine if you put in the wrong gas, or screw up your emissions so you can’t pass your smog test in places that check this? Quite possibly. Will Mercedes risk this on any of their cars? No, because they’re on the hook for the repairs when something goes wrong during the warranty period. Will a tuner risk this on any of their customers’ cars? Well, you can probably answer that one yourself by asking how many of them have ever paid for a customers’ M156 motor replacement that was prematurely killed as a result of using an aftermarket tune.
[parting shot removed]
<END RANT>
All other things being equal, the performance of any particular naturally aspirated engine can be modified by adjusting the fuel and ignition maps and the valve lift duration. I am afraid I don't have the time (or patience) to explain to you what a stoichiometric ratio is and why it is important when burning gasoline in the presence of oxygen, nor the intricacies of internal combustion engine operation and valve lift and duration, but with a tune on a naturally aspirated engine you can essentially change the ignition timing (advance or retard), you can vary the fuel/air ratio (lean or rich), and on some engines like the M156 in the C63 you can also adjust the valve duration. The concept is exactly the same - you ignite a gas/air mixture and attempt to get maximum power from the combustion.
To gain performance, you can advance the ignition timing. Higher octane fuel burns more slowly and is less prone to detonation (knock), so the higher the octane rating of the fuel, the more you can advance the ignition timing before detonation occurs. However, you then risk having the engine grenade itself if the gas you’re putting in has a lower octane rating, so what any car manufacturer will do is set the timing at a point where even if you were to put in 87 octane gas you won’t destroy the motor. For any particular engine and temperature, the point at which a particular quantity of gasoline/air mixture will detonate is fixed so you can’t go beyond what is physically possible.
You also need to take into account the stoichiometric ratio for gasoline combustion and adjust the fuel map (air-to-fuel ratio or AFR) so that it is as close to the optimal 14.8:1 for complete burn of the gas, but again without damaging your engine. A stoichiometric mixture burns very hot and you will again experience detonation upon achieving the maximum cylinder pressure under high temperatures. You can use a stoichiometric mixture under very light load conditions, but then need to start running the AFR on the rich side to control (lower) the combustion temperatures and prevent detonation and overheating. Car manufacturers also have to worry about emissions and the catalytic converters (running a lean mixture will also kill your cats), so again, all engine manufacturers will tune the AFR so that you won’t destroy the motor or the cats. Again, as in the previous case, for any particular engine and temperature, the point at which a particular quantity of gasoline/air mixture will detonate is fixed so you can’t go beyond what is physically possible.
Lastly - and I have no personal experience with VVT tuning, but the principles are pretty basic - you need to take into account the fact that it takes time for the fuel and air mixture to be sucked into the cylinder, completely burned, and the exhaust gasses pushed out. The valve timing is controlled by the camshafts, and all other things being equal, you need to maximize camshaft lift and duration so that you can inject and burn more fuel and therefore get more power. However, seeing as the intake, combustion and exhaust phases all take a fixed amount of time to complete and you have a finite amount of time during which you can keep the valves open, the constraints here are physical and specific to the particular engine – basically, you want to maximize the valve lift and duration at high engine speeds without overlap at low speeds. In other words, VVT will give you more valve duration so that you can produce more power than what is achievable with a fixed duration camshaft. For any particular engine at a particular RPM point (with or without VVT), you can only keep the valves open for so long and again you can’t go beyond what is physically possible.
So much for the tuning primer.
Now, AFAIK the BS, P31 and 507 motor are identical all the way from the intake to the exhaust. If you have the same motor regardless of what the individual components are - I don't think anyone here has offered any evidence that the BS or 507 engine are in any way different form the P31, whether it’s the intake, injectors, free-flow exhaust, etc. - then there is only a finite amount of power you can get out of that particular engine using a particular gasoline. The non-P31 motor is restricted from the factory on purpose, and it is easy to remove the restriction and allow the maximum amount of fuel and air for the specific engine capacity to mix and burn, which will indeed give you more power. The P31 engine, on the other hand, isn't artificially restricted, and there is only a tiny amount of power to be gained by varying the fuel map and ignition timing, which comes at the expense of your safety margin or engine longevity. In other words, there is no magical business-school formula and you can’t miraculously come up with power out of nowhere.
So - can you get a little more power out of a tune written specifically for high-octane gas or lower altitudes (denser air hence more oxygen) for a P31, BS or 507 motor? Sure. Is it possible that the P31, BS and 507 have somewhat different tunes form the factory? Sure. Are the differences significant? To your bragging rights, sure. To everyone else concerned with actual, real-world performance improvements without overstressing the engine, they are non-existent.
Will an aftermarket tune damage your engine if you put in the wrong gas, or screw up your emissions so you can’t pass your smog test in places that check this? Quite possibly. Will Mercedes risk this on any of their cars? No, because they’re on the hook for the repairs when something goes wrong during the warranty period. Will a tuner risk this on any of their customers’ cars? Well, you can probably answer that one yourself by asking how many of them have ever paid for a customers’ M156 motor replacement that was prematurely killed as a result of using an aftermarket tune.
[parting shot removed]
<END RANT>
Last edited by Diabolis; 07-23-2013 at 05:45 PM.
07-23-2013, 05:39 PM
#54
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W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars, EQE 4Matic+ on order
A great (technical) write-up on the M156 engine for anyone interested:
http://www.marcusfitzhugh.com/CLK/63.html
http://www.marcusfitzhugh.com/CLK/63.html
07-23-2013, 06:07 PM
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2013 C63 AMG, 2013 B250
Cool man, no worries. It's easy to get worked up sometimes (ask me how I know) but at the end of the day we're all here for the same reason. 
07-23-2013, 06:07 PM
#58
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'14 C63 "Edition 507"; '02 Widebody WS6 Trans Am ~ 1,200hp (kills everything)
Diabolis - Lol dude I appreciate you sharing your knowledge and everything, but you could have saved yourself all that energy bro. I take it you never looked at my sig, so I'll summarize it for you: 1200hp wide body WS6. Yeah thats mine and I built it. I think I may have more experience at this hot-roddin' than you.
One thing's for sure...
Your 928 would get a Molly-whoppin' by my WS6.
One thing's for sure...
Your 928 would get a Molly-whoppin' by my WS6.
Last edited by austinauflick; 07-23-2013 at 06:16 PM.
07-23-2013, 06:08 PM
#59
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507 SEDAN
Yo!!
You guys got way off topic. I started this post with information and as a feeler for anyone else who actually has a 507 on order and was told that there would be a delivery delay and push-back on date of finally delivery.
I was merely relaying information on the production delay and lack of engines. I wanted to hear from the other 507 orders. I wanted to know if anyone else had received theirs yet or what they had heard from their dealership. I'm not even sure where this post went.
This was not supposed to be a pissing contest.
You guys got way off topic. I started this post with information and as a feeler for anyone else who actually has a 507 on order and was told that there would be a delivery delay and push-back on date of finally delivery.
I was merely relaying information on the production delay and lack of engines. I wanted to hear from the other 507 orders. I wanted to know if anyone else had received theirs yet or what they had heard from their dealership. I'm not even sure where this post went.
This was not supposed to be a pissing contest.
07-23-2013, 06:44 PM
#61
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Austin - I never claimed that I am good at hot-rodding nor that my (car) is bigger than yours. However, when it came to the issue of engine tunes and business school, you made some pretty ignorant comments and I called you on it.
Jordan - my apologies for whatever part I played in hijacking the thread.
Jordan - my apologies for whatever part I played in hijacking the thread.
07-23-2013, 06:53 PM
#62
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'14 C63 "Edition 507"; '02 Widebody WS6 Trans Am ~ 1,200hp (kills everything)
I think you misinterpreted what I said maybe. I know what I'm talking about and I believe there's a possibility we're both saying the same thing.
From a physical standpoint, the P31 and 507 are the same. If there is any difference in output between these two, it would be coming from software, not hardware.
Is that not something we can agree on? I'd like to call it quits if possible and that's why I just wrote "you're right" earlier - I feel we may be trying to say the same things, just differently allowing for misinterpretation. It's not all that uncommon.
Anyways, giving back your thread Jordan. Apologies.
From a physical standpoint, the P31 and 507 are the same. If there is any difference in output between these two, it would be coming from software, not hardware.
Is that not something we can agree on? I'd like to call it quits if possible and that's why I just wrote "you're right" earlier - I feel we may be trying to say the same things, just differently allowing for misinterpretation. It's not all that uncommon.
Anyways, giving back your thread Jordan. Apologies.
Last edited by austinauflick; 07-23-2013 at 08:17 PM.
07-23-2013, 07:32 PM
#63
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https://mbworld.org/forums/5630558-post24.html
I highly doubt the difference is good for any real measurable horsepower.
07-23-2013, 09:43 PM
#64
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Rage - just replied in the other (Austin's) thread you referenced (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...dan-buyer.html).
Austin - I hadn't read the thread you started before, but it looks like you've built an absolutely amazing car. With regard to what is possible and what isn't with ECU tuning alone on an M156 motor, let's chalk it up as a misunderstanding. Cheers!
Off to hijack your old thread now and talk about engine tuning there.
Austin - I hadn't read the thread you started before, but it looks like you've built an absolutely amazing car. With regard to what is possible and what isn't with ECU tuning alone on an M156 motor, let's chalk it up as a misunderstanding. Cheers!
Off to hijack your old thread now and talk about engine tuning there.
07-23-2013, 10:01 PM
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'14 C63 "Edition 507"; '02 Widebody WS6 Trans Am ~ 1,200hp (kills everything)
Rage - just replied in the other (Austin's) thread you referenced (https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...dan-buyer.html).
Austin - I hadn't read the thread you started before, but it looks like you've built an absolutely amazing car. With regard to what is possible and what isn't with ECU tuning alone on an M156 motor, let's chalk it up as a misunderstanding. Cheers!
Off to hijack your old thread now and talk about engine tuning there.
Austin - I hadn't read the thread you started before, but it looks like you've built an absolutely amazing car. With regard to what is possible and what isn't with ECU tuning alone on an M156 motor, let's chalk it up as a misunderstanding. Cheers!
Off to hijack your old thread now and talk about engine tuning there.
07-24-2013, 07:58 AM
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'14 C63 "Edition 507"; '02 Widebody WS6 Trans Am ~ 1,200hp (kills everything)
Yeah you Aussie's are a fun bunch. I visited AU a few times from 2005-2008 while I was stationed in Tokyo. While us Americans are known for pioneering the hot rod, AU has taken it to a whole different level.
(July 11, 2013)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...d-in-australia
"we'll just put two 7.0L in the same car" <-- Cray cray but I love it.
(July 11, 2013)
http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1...d-in-australia
"we'll just put two 7.0L in the same car" <-- Cray cray but I love it.
07-24-2013, 10:02 AM
#72
I can't comment on the ML63. As for the forged engine internals, they are not necessary for the power output - they are necessary for the longevity of the engine. They are lighter and harder than the cast bits in the "regular" M156 motor, and while you can certainly get the power from the motor, you are stressing it more. It's no different from having cast vs. forged wheels. Your car goes just as fast on both of them and they are equally round until you hit a pot hole.
many races have been done, the p31 and BS are dead even, im sure the 507 will be too.
07-24-2013, 04:02 PM
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'14 C63 "Edition 507"; '02 Widebody WS6 Trans Am ~ 1,200hp (kills everything)
That's good info right there. I have seen pics of a torn down P31 motor and I must say that crank looks like a very nice piece. By comparison, I don't believe there's an LS crank that looks as nicely trimmed up as the P31's. As you mentioned, the knife edge treatment and polish alone stood out to me from what I'm used to seeing. I turned sucker for the M156 upon just seeing that piece.
09-09-2013, 08:19 PM
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C63 507 Coupe , Cayman GTS
I was wondering if anyone has any more info as to the delays on the 507 engine?
Thanks for all of the fantastic information this forum has provided me with!
I hope to return the knowledge sooner then later.
Update on my 507 build: I got confirmation that MB has received the order and waiting on build date.
My contact told me that the AMG engines are running 3-4 weeks behind schedule.
If anyone has an AMG on order maybe they can corroborate this info.
If anyone is interested my build sheet is below.
P61 507 PKG
793 19" BLACK FORGED WHEELS
051 disigno Magno Platinum Paint
290 Black Leather pkg
H73 carbon fiber interior
255 AMG performance media
471 Limited slip Differential
997 Driver Assist pkg
" P01pkg – Premium 1 Package comes standard with 507
C63 Edition 507: Standard
U22 – 4 Way Power Lumbar Support
049/518 – iPod/ MP3 Media Interface
287 – Split Folding Rear Seats
536 – SIRIUS Satellite Radio
810 – harman/kardon surround system**
873 – Heated Front Seats"
319 lighting pkg
320 multimedia pkg
889 keyless go
120 illuminated AMG door sills
I may switch out full black leather for the PKG below. Im really torn on the 3 interiors they offer.
241PKG - Two-Tone Porcelain/Black
Seats: designo Porcelain Nappa Leather
Seat & Door Panel Inserts: Black DINAMICA
Contrast Stitching: Porcelain
Includes: 275 - Driver’s Seat Memory & Power
Steering Column
- Standard -
Thanks for all of the fantastic information this forum has provided me with!
I hope to return the knowledge sooner then later.
Update on my 507 build: I got confirmation that MB has received the order and waiting on build date.
My contact told me that the AMG engines are running 3-4 weeks behind schedule.
If anyone has an AMG on order maybe they can corroborate this info.
If anyone is interested my build sheet is below.
P61 507 PKG
793 19" BLACK FORGED WHEELS
051 disigno Magno Platinum Paint
290 Black Leather pkg
H73 carbon fiber interior
255 AMG performance media
471 Limited slip Differential
997 Driver Assist pkg
" P01pkg – Premium 1 Package comes standard with 507
C63 Edition 507: Standard
U22 – 4 Way Power Lumbar Support
049/518 – iPod/ MP3 Media Interface
287 – Split Folding Rear Seats
536 – SIRIUS Satellite Radio
810 – harman/kardon surround system**
873 – Heated Front Seats"
319 lighting pkg
320 multimedia pkg
889 keyless go
120 illuminated AMG door sills
I may switch out full black leather for the PKG below. Im really torn on the 3 interiors they offer.
241PKG - Two-Tone Porcelain/Black
Seats: designo Porcelain Nappa Leather
Seat & Door Panel Inserts: Black DINAMICA
Contrast Stitching: Porcelain
Includes: 275 - Driver’s Seat Memory & Power
Steering Column
- Standard -
Last edited by Ruff507; 09-09-2013 at 09:03 PM. Reason: info udpated from contact
09-09-2013, 11:07 PM
#75
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C63 AMG 507 Edition
I was wondering if anyone has any more info as to the delays on the 507 engine?
Thanks for all of the fantastic information this forum has provided me with!
I hope to return the knowledge sooner then later.
Update on my 507 build: I got confirmation that MB has received the order and waiting on build date.
My contact told me that the AMG engines are running 3-4 weeks behind schedule.
If anyone has an AMG on order maybe they can corroborate this info.
If anyone is interested my build sheet is below.
P61 507 PKG
793 19" BLACK FORGED WHEELS
051 disigno Magno Platinum Paint
290 Black Leather pkg
H73 carbon fiber interior
255 AMG performance media
471 Limited slip Differential
997 Driver Assist pkg
" P01pkg Premium 1 Package comes standard with 507
C63 Edition 507: Standard
U22 4 Way Power Lumbar Support
049/518 iPod/ MP3 Media Interface
287 Split Folding Rear Seats
536 SIRIUS Satellite Radio
810 harman/kardon surround system**
873 Heated Front Seats"
319 lighting pkg
320 multimedia pkg
889 keyless go
120 illuminated AMG door sills
I may switch out full black leather for the PKG below. Im really torn on the 3 interiors they offer.
241PKG - Two-Tone Porcelain/Black
Seats: designo Porcelain Nappa Leather
Seat & Door Panel Inserts: Black DINAMICA
Contrast Stitching: Porcelain
Includes: 275 - Drivers Seat Memory & Power
Steering Column
- Standard -
Thanks for all of the fantastic information this forum has provided me with!
I hope to return the knowledge sooner then later.
Update on my 507 build: I got confirmation that MB has received the order and waiting on build date.
My contact told me that the AMG engines are running 3-4 weeks behind schedule.
If anyone has an AMG on order maybe they can corroborate this info.
If anyone is interested my build sheet is below.
P61 507 PKG
793 19" BLACK FORGED WHEELS
051 disigno Magno Platinum Paint
290 Black Leather pkg
H73 carbon fiber interior
255 AMG performance media
471 Limited slip Differential
997 Driver Assist pkg
" P01pkg Premium 1 Package comes standard with 507
C63 Edition 507: Standard
U22 4 Way Power Lumbar Support
049/518 iPod/ MP3 Media Interface
287 Split Folding Rear Seats
536 SIRIUS Satellite Radio
810 harman/kardon surround system**
873 Heated Front Seats"
319 lighting pkg
320 multimedia pkg
889 keyless go
120 illuminated AMG door sills
I may switch out full black leather for the PKG below. Im really torn on the 3 interiors they offer.
241PKG - Two-Tone Porcelain/Black
Seats: designo Porcelain Nappa Leather
Seat & Door Panel Inserts: Black DINAMICA
Contrast Stitching: Porcelain
Includes: 275 - Drivers Seat Memory & Power
Steering Column
- Standard -
The only comment I would have on the interior is that having white on any part of your seat seems like a maintenance headache.
On engine delays, there are some comments on the UK forums suggesting that 507 sedans can no longer be ordered there (wagons only) in order to help limit demand. Seems the 507 is exceeding expectations.
