Any Hand Gun Enthusiasts / Collectors Among Us?
10-25-2013, 01:43 PM
#51
10-25-2013, 01:47 PM
#52
I live 45 miles away...
we should meet, you can shoot with us at the government range (after a background check, don't want any armed nuts around us, lol)
what is your 'real world experience'?
it's a good thing people who design planes, cars, etc, rely on math, graphs and chart voodoo to do their work, lol
physics is not to be trusted, best to rely on your gut feeling
10-25-2013, 01:50 PM
#53
as I said, hogwash
best to leave the energy inside doing damage than making an exit hole
ever here of glaser safety slug?
not to mention shooting your own kids in the next room due to over-penetration
those graphs were compiled by this guy, who will know about this subject than you ever will
Evan Marshall, married 40 years and father of seven, served with the Detroit Police Department from 1969 until his retirement in 1989. Evan is in his second career as a contract instructor for federal agencies with direct counter-terrorist responsibilities.
A prolific author in the firearms and law enforcement press. Co-author of the three best selling, highly controversial firearms books, "Handgun Stopping Power: The Definitive Study," "Street Stoppers: The Latest Handgun Stopping Power Street Results," and "Stopping Power: A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition."
and this guy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julian_Hatcher
you need to read a book called 'Kill or be killed' or 'quick or dead'
it wil change your persepctive, hardware is a crutch, a tool, and can't compensate for knowledge, training or presence of mind
when in the service we never talked about weapons, they were tools, like a shovel, most guys who use them for a living aren't 'gun nuts'
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-25-2013 at 01:56 PM.
10-25-2013, 02:04 PM
#54
Thank you for your service to this country. And yes...FRIENDS. I am currently serving, a graduate of the US Naval Academy and fly F-18s so yes, I have friends that are operators and have socialized with many operators in many ports of call. I have even provided armed overwatch and close air support for them. And in my day to day job my current ammo of choice is 20 mm HEI.
some of my buddies still are 'in' a local Reserve SF Group, I'm over the hill
all carry the M9, although when deployed will sneak a Glock 9 in their gear
The only units I'm aware of that have a lot of descretion are devgru (or whatever they are called now) and delta (army compartmentilized unit or whatever)
all the other operational SeAL, SF, Ranger used standardized weapons, for good reason...
the government buys them, lol
ammo commonality
manual of arms familiarity
interchange of parts and armorer training
being hit with a modern 45 or 9 round will do the same if the same spot is hit, but these guys NEVER shoot only once, usually a volley of 3, and usually 2 guys! sure reduces the odds of missing and increases the chance of *** the target up
10-25-2013, 02:19 PM
#55
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
well I wish I could say it appears you know of what you speak, but it is obvious you do not, not an inkling
although the body of a man and deer may be similar (mass aside) their minds are not...a man will know what happened to him when shot, a deer will not, a deer will flee, a man may stand and fight to live
I have hunted since I was 12 years old, lived in the bush in AK for 10 years and took: moose, elk, bear (brown) and a few others...
if you believe a 44 mag has more stopping power than a 223 HP logic will not work with you...keep drinking that kool-aid you are espousing
those 'graphs and charts' are based on shooting gotas and actual emergency room and police records, not some internet guy saying a 44 will do more damage thana 223 for criminy sakes, lol
are you a coroner? a forensic patholigist? work for the Army doing wound damage assessments? your ancedotal hogwash is just that..by your logic a 38 short will do more damage than a 223 since it is a bigger diameter and will 'mushroom' larger
just because you discredit what I say does not make it wrong, it implies you do not understand
although the body of a man and deer may be similar (mass aside) their minds are not...a man will know what happened to him when shot, a deer will not, a deer will flee, a man may stand and fight to live
I have hunted since I was 12 years old, lived in the bush in AK for 10 years and took: moose, elk, bear (brown) and a few others...
if you believe a 44 mag has more stopping power than a 223 HP logic will not work with you...keep drinking that kool-aid you are espousing
those 'graphs and charts' are based on shooting gotas and actual emergency room and police records, not some internet guy saying a 44 will do more damage thana 223 for criminy sakes, lol
are you a coroner? a forensic patholigist? work for the Army doing wound damage assessments? your ancedotal hogwash is just that..by your logic a 38 short will do more damage than a 223 since it is a bigger diameter and will 'mushroom' larger
just because you discredit what I say does not make it wrong, it implies you do not understand
To your other statements, it is easy to discredit my particular experiences as they hold no weight in and amongst the rest of the world... accept with other individuals who also hunt animals experience exactly what it is I speak of.
One shot from a 223 as you can see from the illustration I have provided above, does not, and will not provide the extensive damage one can expect from a larger caliber weapon that utilizes a larger slug (when same ammunition is utilized in each weapon of course), you don't have to be a physicist to understand that... do you?
As for knock down power, do you need anymore evidence than this video?
As for science, well science will take you so far, then there is the real world.
I totally understand where you are coming from, maybe it is a lack understanding and or ignorance on my end, but as I stated before... I am a man that believes in what I see, not what someone says.
Last edited by Autosport7; 10-25-2013 at 02:26 PM.
10-25-2013, 02:30 PM
#56
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Ingenieur I respect your position and very well may entertain listening to more of your talk on how lower caliber weapons are more deadly than the opposite, but I need evidence. I ask that you provide more than just some talk of men who say so, or bar graphs put together by people, but pleae provide real live evidence, then you may persuade me, until then, I stand my ground.
10-25-2013, 02:32 PM
#57
So what you are saying is a deer lying dead in its tracks is due to a lack of understanding as to what just happened to it? I tend to disagree.
To you other statements it is easy to discredit my particular experiences as they hold no weight in and amongst the rest of the world... accept with other individuals who also hunt animals experience exactly what it is I speak of.
One shot from a 223 as you can see from the illustration I have provided abpove, does not, and will not provide the extensive damage one can expect from a larger caliber weapon that utilizes a larger slug (when same ammunition is utilized in each weapon of course), you don't have to be a physicist to understand that... do you?
As for knock down power, do you need anymore evidence than this video?
As for science, well science will take you so far, then there is the real world.
I totally understand where you are coming from, maybe it is a lack understanding and or ignorance on my end, but as I stated before... I am a man that believes in what I see, not what someone says.
To you other statements it is easy to discredit my particular experiences as they hold no weight in and amongst the rest of the world... accept with other individuals who also hunt animals experience exactly what it is I speak of.
One shot from a 223 as you can see from the illustration I have provided abpove, does not, and will not provide the extensive damage one can expect from a larger caliber weapon that utilizes a larger slug (when same ammunition is utilized in each weapon of course), you don't have to be a physicist to understand that... do you?
As for knock down power, do you need anymore evidence than this video?
As for science, well science will take you so far, then there is the real world.
I totally understand where you are coming from, maybe it is a lack understanding and or ignorance on my end, but as I stated before... I am a man that believes in what I see, not what someone says.
an internet video from a redneck with an agenda
or 50 years of research by Marshall, Hatcher and many others
I'm going with Marshall and Hatcher
a 223 vs 44 mag in the same spot will be much more effective, period
ever see a 5.56 round hit bone?
I can't 'see' gravity, yet I believe what Albert says about it
I can't see electro-magnetic fields, but I belive Maxwell
can't see current/voltage, but trust Ohm, Thevinen, et al
but the numbers I presented are not calculations, they are statistics from shootings and data/measurments from shooting animals
a 45 is no more effictive than a 9 if place in the same spot
and both will take 2 shots to ensure incapacitation (if not more)
10-25-2013, 02:35 PM
#58
Ingenieur I respect your position and very well may entertain listening to more of your talk on how lower caliber weapons are more deadly than the opposite, but I need evidence. I ask that you provide more than just some talk of men who say so, or bar graphs put together by people, but pleae provide real live evidence, then you may persuade me, until then, I stand my ground.
those graphs represent actual shooting statistics
'those people' have spent their lives researching this and have been paid to do so
they have no dog in this fight, they only present the facts
45 vs 9 no difference
rifle vs handgun big difference
shotgun vs handgun big difference
rifle vs shotgun, depends on range
10-25-2013, 02:36 PM
#59
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
science IS the real world, physics is our description of the REAL world
an internet video from a redneck with an agenda
or 50 years of research by Marshall, Hatcher and many others
I'm going with Marshall and Hatcher
a 223 vs 44 mag in the same spot will be much more effective, period
ever see a 5.56 round hit bone?
I can't 'see' gravity, yet I believe what Albert says about it
I can't see electro-magnetic fields, but I belive Maxwell
can't see current/voltage, but trust Ohm, Thevinen, et al
but the numbers I presented are not calculations, they are statistics from shootings and data/measurments from shooting animals
a 45 is no more effictive than a 9 if place in the same spot
and both will take 2 shots to ensure incapacitation (if not more)
an internet video from a redneck with an agenda
or 50 years of research by Marshall, Hatcher and many others
I'm going with Marshall and Hatcher
a 223 vs 44 mag in the same spot will be much more effective, period
ever see a 5.56 round hit bone?
I can't 'see' gravity, yet I believe what Albert says about it
I can't see electro-magnetic fields, but I belive Maxwell
can't see current/voltage, but trust Ohm, Thevinen, et al
but the numbers I presented are not calculations, they are statistics from shootings and data/measurments from shooting animals
a 45 is no more effictive than a 9 if place in the same spot
and both will take 2 shots to ensure incapacitation (if not more)
I don't believe in science because someone tells me to, I believe in the parts of science in which have been proven, which have then become real world. Unproven science is neither here nor there. Provide hard evidence as to your comments and I am open to a change in opinion. Until then, not happening.
Do you think gravity was believed in by everyone, no, not until proof was provided to stand behind the theory. Your theory hasn't been proven to me, I ask again... show me.
10-25-2013, 02:39 PM
#60
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
those graphs represent actual shooting statistics
'those people' have spent their lives researching this and have been paid to do so
they have no dog in this fight, they only present the facts
45 vs 9 no difference
rifle vs handgun big difference
shotgun vs handgun big difference
rifle vs shotgun, depends on range
'those people' have spent their lives researching this and have been paid to do so
they have no dog in this fight, they only present the facts
45 vs 9 no difference
rifle vs handgun big difference
shotgun vs handgun big difference
rifle vs shotgun, depends on range
Yes sometimes all it takes is a redneck to show up a scientist. This guy showed me what I need to see. Show me I am wrong.
I am sure you have heard the term, "he's so smart, he's stupid", well common sense sometimes gets the best of people. I have seen tons of money spent in areas that have brought the research back 360 degrees to where they started while staring at the answers in the face before they even started.
Or maybe I am too ignorant to open my eyes to this theory you have... I have been wrong in the past, and very well may be here, I just need proof. And if I am wrong I hope you can provide proof as I don't want to sound like an ignoramus if this discussion comes up again. lol
Last edited by Autosport7; 10-25-2013 at 02:43 PM.
10-26-2013, 10:19 PM
#67
I carry my bolo, circa 1981. Used it for jungle survival school in (USMC) the Philippines. Why carry a gun when you can chop someone's arm off with a machete? We used our M16's to poke people in the eye from 500m. Anything closer deserves some personal attention.
10-27-2013, 02:17 PM
#68
Its all in what you believe.
I don't believe in science because someone tells me to, I believe in the parts of science in which have been proven, which have then become real world. Unproven science is neither here nor there. Provide hard evidence as to your comments and I am open to a change in opinion. Until then, not happening.
Do you think gravity was believed in by everyone, no, not until proof was provided to stand behind the theory. Your theory hasn't been proven to me, I ask again... show me.
I don't believe in science because someone tells me to, I believe in the parts of science in which have been proven, which have then become real world. Unproven science is neither here nor there. Provide hard evidence as to your comments and I am open to a change in opinion. Until then, not happening.
Do you think gravity was believed in by everyone, no, not until proof was provided to stand behind the theory. Your theory hasn't been proven to me, I ask again... show me.
if someone 'told' you F = ma or V = iR would you believe it, lol
I know Newton, Ohm, Kirchoff, et al are right becasue I verify his 'laws' everyday on my work
if you can't reason through this simple problem on your own I can't do your thinking for you, good luck with your dogma
Last edited by Ingenieur; 10-27-2013 at 02:31 PM.
10-27-2013, 02:20 PM
#69
They wasted their money if they have nothing more than a graph put together by people.
Yes sometimes all it takes is a redneck to show up a scientist. This guy showed me what I need to see. Show me I am wrong.
I am sure you have heard the term, "he's so smart, he's stupid", well common sense sometimes gets the best of people. I have seen tons of money spent in areas that have brought the research back 360 degrees to where they started while staring at the answers in the face before they even started.
Or maybe I am too ignorant to open my eyes to this theory you have... I have been wrong in the past, and very well may be here, I just need proof. And if I am wrong I hope you can provide proof as I don't want to sound like an ignoramus if this discussion comes up again. lol
Yes sometimes all it takes is a redneck to show up a scientist. This guy showed me what I need to see. Show me I am wrong.
I am sure you have heard the term, "he's so smart, he's stupid", well common sense sometimes gets the best of people. I have seen tons of money spent in areas that have brought the research back 360 degrees to where they started while staring at the answers in the face before they even started.
Or maybe I am too ignorant to open my eyes to this theory you have... I have been wrong in the past, and very well may be here, I just need proof. And if I am wrong I hope you can provide proof as I don't want to sound like an ignoramus if this discussion comes up again. lol
emergency room physicians
MASH physicians
post trauma analysis on shot pigs
and 1000's of real world shooting
if you say doing this researxh to save the lives of cops and soldiers is a 'waste' of money that would imply they are worthless?
it's not my theory, any more than Newtonian mechanics of circuit theory are 'my' theoroes, lol
only the ignorant say knowledge is secondary to common sense
in your case they are mutually exclusive
not so in mine
10-27-2013, 02:27 PM
#70
nice gear
mine:
M1A match with Leupold GI mildot
Benelli M1 super 90 tactical, 7 rnd ghost ring sites
had a HK91 (sold it, BIG mistake!) with factory claw mnt and 6X Zeiss
Sig P245
HK P7M8
Baer 45
Novak BHP
Glock 27
Walther PPS
50's Colt Guv 45
and the most important: a 25 year old shot timer, used at least 100 times a month when drawing from concealment and shooting 12" x 16" metal plates from 7 to 20 feet (90% of all civie gunfights, rare as they be, 7' engagement, 98% less than 7 yards, >95% over in 4 shots or less)
front sight, squeeze
front sight, squeeze
....
repeat until I'm down, he's down or I'm empty
mine:
M1A match with Leupold GI mildot
Benelli M1 super 90 tactical, 7 rnd ghost ring sites
had a HK91 (sold it, BIG mistake!) with factory claw mnt and 6X Zeiss
Sig P245
HK P7M8
Baer 45
Novak BHP
Glock 27
Walther PPS
50's Colt Guv 45
and the most important: a 25 year old shot timer, used at least 100 times a month when drawing from concealment and shooting 12" x 16" metal plates from 7 to 20 feet (90% of all civie gunfights, rare as they be, 7' engagement, 98% less than 7 yards, >95% over in 4 shots or less)
front sight, squeeze
front sight, squeeze
....
repeat until I'm down, he's down or I'm empty
10-27-2013, 03:11 PM
#71
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
I 'believe' (more accurately have proven to myself the validity thru an education) in science, not because someone told me so
if someone 'told' you F = ma or V = iR would you believe it, lol
I know Newton, Ohm, Kirchoff, et al are right becasue I verify his 'laws' everyday on my work
if you can't reason through this simple problem on your own I can't do your thinking for you, good luck with your dogma
if someone 'told' you F = ma or V = iR would you believe it, lol
I know Newton, Ohm, Kirchoff, et al are right becasue I verify his 'laws' everyday on my work
if you can't reason through this simple problem on your own I can't do your thinking for you, good luck with your dogma
and the input from fiedl medice
emergency room physicians
MASH physicians
post trauma analysis on shot pigs
and 1000's of real world shooting
if you say doing this researxh to save the lives of cops and soldiers is a 'waste' of money that would imply they are worthless?
it's not my theory, any more than Newtonian mechanics of circuit theory are 'my' theoroes, lol
only the ignorant say knowledge is secondary to common sense
in your case they are mutually exclusive
not so in mine
emergency room physicians
MASH physicians
post trauma analysis on shot pigs
and 1000's of real world shooting
if you say doing this researxh to save the lives of cops and soldiers is a 'waste' of money that would imply they are worthless?
it's not my theory, any more than Newtonian mechanics of circuit theory are 'my' theoroes, lol
only the ignorant say knowledge is secondary to common sense
in your case they are mutually exclusive
not so in mine
10-27-2013, 04:45 PM
#72
Not me, but (no more than Newton is only 'right' because I say so, lol)
Hatcher
Marshall
US Army
FBI
USSS
DEA
SeAL's
Rangers
SF's
Mossad
et al
if they felt that the 9 was not suffient are you saying we would send men into dangerous situations ill-equipped?
it's the man, not the weapon, by a margin of 20:1, and since the difference between the 45 and 9 is zip, it's the man
I'm glad most people are neophytes when it comes to armed (or unarmed combat), it definitely increases my odds
Hatcher
Marshall
US Army
FBI
USSS
DEA
SeAL's
Rangers
SF's
Mossad
et al
if they felt that the 9 was not suffient are you saying we would send men into dangerous situations ill-equipped?
it's the man, not the weapon, by a margin of 20:1, and since the difference between the 45 and 9 is zip, it's the man
I'm glad most people are neophytes when it comes to armed (or unarmed combat), it definitely increases my odds
10-28-2013, 03:05 PM
#73
MBWorld Fanatic!
Thread Starter
Not me, but (no more than Newton is only 'right' because I say so, lol)
Hatcher
Marshall
US Army
FBI
USSS
DEA
SeAL's
Rangers
SF's
Mossad
et al
if they felt that the 9 was not suffient are you saying we would send men into dangerous situations ill-equipped?
it's the man, not the weapon, by a margin of 20:1, and since the difference between the 45 and 9 is zip, it's the man
I'm glad most people are neophytes when it comes to armed (or unarmed combat), it definitely increases my odds
Hatcher
Marshall
US Army
FBI
USSS
DEA
SeAL's
Rangers
SF's
Mossad
et al
if they felt that the 9 was not suffient are you saying we would send men into dangerous situations ill-equipped?
it's the man, not the weapon, by a margin of 20:1, and since the difference between the 45 and 9 is zip, it's the man
I'm glad most people are neophytes when it comes to armed (or unarmed combat), it definitely increases my odds
I see your point in that the person pulling the trigger plays majority role in whether or not the target survives, having said that, can you agree that the 45 caliber bullet transferring through the body does do more damage than a 9mm?
Can we meet in the middle here?
Lets say both DIRECT hits miss the mark by a fraction of a .10, are you willing to agree that the 45 has a better chance of leaving a larger devastation path than a 9mm thus having a better chance of still hitting the kill spot?
10-28-2013, 05:35 PM
#74
MBWorld Fanatic!
nice gear
mine:
M1A match with Leupold GI mildot
Benelli M1 super 90 tactical, 7 rnd ghost ring sites
had a HK91 (sold it, BIG mistake!) with factory claw mnt and 6X Zeiss
Sig P245
HK P7M8
Baer 45
Novak BHP
Glock 27
Walther PPS
50's Colt Guv 45
and the most important: a 25 year old shot timer, used at least 100 times a month when drawing from concealment and shooting 12" x 16" metal plates from 7 to 20 feet (90% of all civie gunfights, rare as they be, 7' engagement, 98% less than 7 yards, >95% over in 4 shots or less)
front sight, squeeze
front sight, squeeze
....
repeat until I'm down, he's down or I'm empty
mine:
M1A match with Leupold GI mildot
Benelli M1 super 90 tactical, 7 rnd ghost ring sites
had a HK91 (sold it, BIG mistake!) with factory claw mnt and 6X Zeiss
Sig P245
HK P7M8
Baer 45
Novak BHP
Glock 27
Walther PPS
50's Colt Guv 45
and the most important: a 25 year old shot timer, used at least 100 times a month when drawing from concealment and shooting 12" x 16" metal plates from 7 to 20 feet (90% of all civie gunfights, rare as they be, 7' engagement, 98% less than 7 yards, >95% over in 4 shots or less)
front sight, squeeze
front sight, squeeze
....
repeat until I'm down, he's down or I'm empty
