jvanbrecht

This is also a good point. Depending on what you value your time at.
But there is another thought here.

Some people enjoy wrenching on their car. It is not a job or a chore, but rather a relaxing laid back (okay sometimes not so laid back, and definitely not clean) task. Same goes for detailing, I can spend 8 hours for 2 or 3 days detailing the crap out of my car. sure I can pay alot of money for someone to do that.. but why, I enjoy doing it.

igor

Welcome to the C63 AMG club, at least where I am - not all the drivers, but most Here is how I say it for C63 "I finally have the money to buy a fancy car - oops, I bought it but forgot that I also need the money to service it..."

Sorry folks, many of you in Toronto are fine fellows, but most of C63 clients at my shop are ready to beat my assistant up for 20$ - I really do not need these people's business as I am pretty sure we know what we are doing and this is the reason we even service and repair MBs for most major used car sale companies in the area (references are available). Regular C-class, E-class etc. and rest of AMG family owners are not the same...

Please consider this as my own market opinion and nothing more. This was the main reason I stopped being a sponsor on this board !

Igor.

jvanbrecht

Okay, this needs to stop here... You, nor anyone else have any right to question why someone made a purchase. You have no idea what there circumstances where when they originally bought the car, or what their circumstances are right now.

This bull**** I'm richer than you, I spend my money more responsible than you, etc is childish.

igor

I do not think money is the problem, it is the attitude...

Igor.

Diabolis

They are marked up, but most of them are marked up maybe 25 or 30%, not 250%. There is a difference between making a normal profit and raping someone. The MB parts site that someone else listed here earlier shows your front rotors at ~$800 US each. That's not a huge difference from the $650-750 price for OEM, assuming that you can find them. And, brake rotors are pretty heavy, so by the time you pay for shipping you're looking at roughly the same cost. That's one of the points I was trying to make to the OP (the other being that if the rotors are at the minimum thickness, they need to be replaced regardless of how long he thinks they should last him).

Badges, decals and key fob covers are different - people like to put them where they do and do not belong so there is a much larger market, they are a lot easier to manufacture, and moreover their production cost is a lot lower than a custom-made brake rotor (by custom I mean it fits only one car, not half a dozen different and cheaper models). We drive expensive cars and the maintenance costs are proportionate to the price of the car. I don't see why people have an issue with that. Montblanc ink costs more than BIC ink, and a filet mignon at your favourite high-end restaurant costs more than a filet mignon at the Keg. How are cars any different?

Don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with buying OEM parts whether you do the work yourself or get someone else qualified to do it for you, but you still have to keep in mind that we drive expensive cars that use expensive parts. I use Zimmerman rotors and MANN filters on my P car, but again they cost about 75% of the price of the same Porsche branded parts, not less than half. At least that has been my experience.

V12TTenthusiast

I don't think people like dealers when it comes to service when you can get more bang for your buck, I prefer going to my indie shop (Benz Elite) for maintenance work and Eurocharged DC for my performance mods. I think for any part people want to get the most out of there money, for example dealer charged me about 2000 for super sports for my Carlsson 1/16 Ultra Lights, but found a place by luck 30 miles away when one of the plastic panels underneath came loose, and they charged 1300 for the same exact tires.

I honesty don't think a Goodyear shop (idk if you guys have that in Canada or not but its a big chain in the US) would sell you chinese fake tires Michelin super sport, I think people prefer paying as long as they don't feel like being ripped off. Case in point I wouldn't dump money on my ECU/TCU tune, HE, IC pump, Toe links and Cambers, LSD, lowering links, custom exhaust, custom steering wheel, interior, and the list goes on and on which is costing me ez 9-10k, but its money well spent and the guys at Eurocharged DC treat there guys fair, if you see there shop, in just one month there already overwhelmed with work, and they point out that its cause they treat there customers right and are fair to them, as Paul mentioned today when I was talking to him at the shop.

Diabolis

jvb - I think you're missing my point. I am not in any way disagreeing with people here including you that MB parts are too expensive - only that the profit (whatever it may be on a particular part) is not added on by the dealer but rather MB.

Yes, I am also an electrical engineer (and work in IT to boot), and I too know what a part costs to make vs. what it sells for. My point is that it's not the dealer adding the markup but rather the company whose name is on the part.

igor

I wish I had more clients like you at my shop. You have no idea how people's mentality on the same topic can be different

Too bad you had a bad experience with aftermarket parts, but I can fix it if you want...

THANK YOU !

Igor.

Diabolis

My point exactly as are your previous two posts (need to match the rotors with the pads and the % markup on the OEM SL65 fronts). Glad someone with professional experience in the automotive industry can confirm what I am saying.

igor

I can confirm one more time. Markup in corporate MB is standard across all dealerships as those have the same owner - MB. Private MB stores/dealerships usually give a bit of the discount to attract the clients, but there are not too many in GTA. Volume is a key

BTW - you do not have to service your MB vehicle at MB dealership, just make sure shop is fully licensed and you get a stamp and the invoice...

Igor.

Diabolis

Hey - any time. Have had many cars over the years and learned a few things along the way, some of them the hard way. But I guess I am in a minority believing that you (usually) get what you pay for, that cutting corners comes at a price or that my time is too valuable for me to spend hours shopping around in order to save a couple of bucks in the end (wrenching on your own car notwithstanding - have done that myself for sheer satisfaction also). IMHO there are way too many penny wise pound foolish people here, but again that's just my $0.02.

It's interesting what you said about the C63 crowd being different from owners of other MB models. I am also on Audizine, a couple of BMW boards and on Rennlist. I can't make any such generalizations about the mentality of Audi S/RS or BMW M owners, but there are glaring similarities here with some people on Rennlist that have bought used entry-level Porsches and are constantly nickeling and diming. Draw whatever conclusions you will, but it sure looks like they've bought their cars for status and can't afford to service them because they're living beyond their means. If anyone has an alternate theory, I am all ears.

Cheers,
Doug

JonMBZ

Here is how it works.

MSRP is appox a 40% markup, dealers often use a matrix which bumps it to 50% some dealers only use MSRP on maintenance items accessories have approx 20% margin body parts 50 % . Matrix was created because the majority of retail buyers all ask for discounts non-stop and all think dealers have a 70% margin. So you quote 10% higher and offer a 10% discount so you are back at the 40% you are suppose to be tracking.

To please JD Power MB has drastically reduced prices on maintenance items. You can tell by how people are arguing about the pricing on why fronts are less than rears. Under normal circumstances before the decrease rotors like the ones that came on a C63 would be 500+ rears a lot less. The pricing scale makes no sense because it's not done on the actual value of the part, but to please JD power.

So if you need any help socal feel free to pm me. If you are in socal I can set you up with a friend of mine that works on my vehicles. High level MB dealer tech and the price of the parts will be a lot cheaper labor usually half.

Now if you guys can just help me on a portfolio

socalwdup

Already changed brake pads and rotors and fixed my dented fender, changed low beam lights to 8k. Discussion is over ladies. I never said I could afford it, I was just wondering if I needed to change my rotors. "rape" was an exaggeration and was meant for the lols. MBWORLD, not even once.Bet you guys don't even lift

JonMBZ

I forgot your question after reading all the other replies, the answer to your question is no you don't need to change your rotors. Mine have been under spec for probably 2 years. Anyways if you still need anything else done you can always pm me for the referral.

Nola

I also find this whole "If you drive that car you should not complain about prices" argument pretty useless and frankly petty. Price sensitivity is not only driven by the size of your pockets, so get over it.

Nola

I ride mountain bikes. My current bike I bought used and out od season. My next bike will be perhaps new but out of season so I can save a few thousand. To an outside observer I nickel and dime, getting used components, always looking for a deal, waiting a few months after a big purchase before getting new things, etc. This isn't because I can't afford it, but because this is how much of my resources in money and time I've chosen to give it. Chasing the deal and planning things well is also part of the hobby.

Are there lots of "car poor" people around? You bet... but you can't generalize. You don't know how many of these guys have this car as a hobby. You don't know how many "nickel and dime" precisely to keep within the budget they chose for that part of their life... regardless of how stretched or comfortable they are overall.

jvanbrecht

I sort of said that earlier too ..

Another off topic thread.. because... your cheap and buy cheap mountain bikes... my bike is better than yours :P

Okay, kidding...... funny thing is.. I may be car poor now (an 18 month old will do that to you), I think I have more money in my 5 bikes (3 mountain, 1 cyclocross and 1 road) than I do in my car (also.. a hobby I have been banned from spending more money on... I think I need a new wife....)

My pride and joy is a Niner RIP9 with a Maverick (RIP ) DUC32

I am Jeff

My pride and joy is my Merlin Fat ti, Merlin XLM, and Ibis Alibi. Sadly...the last new bike I purchased was the XLM. I'm bike poor now.

Diabolis

LOL. Gents - well said, and you have a valid point about shopping wisely, but I still think that sub-standard car maintenance is a different thing altogether. I also collect watches, and buy/sell/trade them all the time looking for the one I want at the price I think is fair, but you surely can't tell me that getting a good deal on a used watch or bike is the same as deciding not to replace your brake rotors once they wear below the minimum thickness. There is a huge difference.

I am Jeff

I agree with you that it's stupid and dangerous about not replacing the pads/rotors when they are below minimum thickness. The differences lie in the OPs opinion that the dealership prices are too high and your opinion that it is just right. Value is quite a subjective matter. Your opinion of fair pricing dealerships, can be viewed by others as vastly over priced.

At the end of the day, the OP got his rotors and pads replaced.

jvanbrecht

No, that is a stupid comparison, and I do not think anyone here would make that mistake (well I hope).

However, what I was reading in all of your posts, is that if your not paying for expensive parts, or going to the dealer, the cheap part you are buying is a substandard, or cheap Chinese knockoff. If that is not what you meant, well I am afraid that is how you came across....

The points I have been making is that there is significant dealer markup on everything, and the fact that MB corp let some dealers sell their parts online wholesale (there are restrictions in place, like even if you are local to the dealer, you have to have the parts shipped, you cannot buy them online and pick them up yourself) versus retail price, this showed us what the markups were to some extent.

Right now our rotors are dirt cheap. 3 years ago the standard rotor for the c63 was almost $500 or $600, similar to what the composite ones are now. At the same time, online the price of the rotors were around $250 from that exact same dealer. The dealer is not going to take a loss, it will either be cost, or cost plus a small markup. Which means that the rotor only cost at most $250 a the time for the dealer.

Markup margins obviously differ for different components.

As far as brakes, oil changes, and other regular maintenance, it is a well known fact the dealer charges well over reasonable costs at local independent shops. But then again, at the same time, most dealers make their money from service and repairs, the profit margins on the cars themselves can be pretty razor thin. So I am not going to hold it against the dealer for trying to make a profit. It is a business after all, out to make money.

I mean lets face it.. $350 to $400 for an oil change and a visual inspection, something that takes them about 30 minutes to do....

Oddly enough, they have quite a bit of profit on oil, I know because I get my oil from the dealer for my oil changes I do myself, I pay around $5 a quart, the local auto parts stores (Autozone, Advanced Auto, etc) generally charge around $9 to $10 a quart. That leads me to believe that MB (which won't take a loss, no matter how friendly you are with your dealers parts dep employees) gets them for around $3 to $4 a quart. Again, kind of insane markup..

mrl0n3ly714

Order parts at parts.com and DIY, i have the whole instruction to replace pads, rotors and evertyhing. Its not easy and not hard, the hardest part is remove the rotors, you have to really bang it. Removing calipers too, just need to find some tools. I would say invest money on tools and so next time you can do it your self. I replaced my oem P30 rotors in 45000 miles and replace new pads too. I know i still have some left but not much.


Let me know if you need DIY instruction.

Diabolis

There are two different issues that I am debating here.

One is using substandard (not OEM) aftermarket parts, which may or may not be Chinese "replicas". Front brake rotors are a perfect example. I don't know how MB makes their rotors, but I do have a bit of knowledge about Porsche parts, and the holes in the cross-drilled rotors are not actually drilled but rather cast when the rotor itself is made, which in turn doesn't create the stress points around the holes that drilling does. There are cheaper aftermarket rotors that cost half as much, look exactly the same and may even start with a decent solid rotor from the OEM manufacturer to begin with, but the holes are drilled after the part is cast, which results in weaker structure of the metal around the holes and you end up with the rotor cracking between the holes. Or in the case of using ceramic brake pads, they produce less brake dust and don't wear out nearly as much as the semi-metallic or organic ones, but they require a higher operating temperature and as a result have a low initial bite when cold, and furthermore are both harder and do not conduct heat nearly as much so the rotors wear out quicker than they would with comparable semi-metallic ones and they are considerably more prone to warp because of all the extra heat that now all goes in the rotor instead of being dissipated by the pad and the caliper. It's more or less the same with every other part. I am not talking about cosmetic upgrades, but sound engineering.

The second issue is the dealer rip-off factor. I am specifically referring to the markup imposed by the dealer, not what MB corporate decides it should sell its parts for. The premium that the dealer charges over wholesale/indie shops on both parts and labour is maybe 25 to 30%, not 250 or 300%. Now, I can't speak for the dealerships in the US, but here in Toronto every one of them has a nice, comfortable waiting area with posh furniture and/or workstations if you want to wait and do some business. They have premium coffee and free beverages and snacks. They provide me with either a free loaner vehicle for the duration of the repairs (they have even rented a car from Enterprise at their expense when all of their loaners were out) which I haven't even had to fill up, or a driver to drop me off wherever I want to go and pick me up from wherever I am if it's same-day service. When I come back to pick the car up after service it has always been vacuumed and washed. And, I know that the work has been done by a properly trained tech with the proper tools for the job and factory MB parts. These things do cost money, and the cheaper indie shop does not provide them. Again, I have no issue with the indie shop - I take my P cars to an independent mechanic but that's because he has been building and servicing race cars for decades and is about as **** about the quality of his work as I am about having it done exactly the way I want it done, not because he is somewhat cheaper that the dealership (which he is). So again I ask - where is the rip-off or the rape at the dealer as many here claim?

I am not disputing that there is a huge markup on some parts and items, but that it's not the dealership that imposes them but rather MB corporate, whether it is brake rotors or motor oil. Yes, when they buy a barrel of Mobil 1 a liter may cost them $5 instead of the $10 they charge, but I as a consumer still pay $9 per liter if I buy a bottle at the Canadian Tire store next door. My indie mechanic also charges $9 for the same $5 litre (he also buys a barrel), but he does not give me a loaner to drive around while he is changing the oil or wash my car afterwards. Where is the rip-off?

P.S. In your oil change example, the oil and filter alone amount to $150 and the dealership will bill me an hour for labour at $150 for the $300 total. My indie mechanic will charge me $120 for the oil and filter and $120 for the same one hour for a total of $240, but I'll waste two hours in the process because he won't drop me off and pick me up afterwards or for that matter wash my car. IMHO the extra $60 on that $300 bill is not extravagant, but again that's just me.

jvanbrecht

Oddly enough, my dealership does not get oil by the barrel, which surprised me abit. They use 6 quart cases. My oil change typically costs me around $85 and takes me 15 minutes. Every other oil change takes me about 45 minutes because I drain the oil pan and oil cooler (the cooler is what takes the additional time.

I agreed with you on the dealer costs, and I never said they are raping anyone with costs, I do however disagree with parts cost and markup. Honestly, I suspect MB does the same thing as everyone else. A good chunk of their stuff is made in China. I have a meeting, but will post more later.

avery.whss

i doubt the dealer marks up 250%...maybe 50% or so