How do I know if my car has a tune?
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From: Los Angeles
'16 C63-S
Doesn't the car have a rev limiter for park and neutral set to 4k RPM? If you sit in your car in park and rev to 6k I'd guess you have a tune. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. You can of course go to dyno and see if it goes past 155MPH. But I suppose in both cases you would only 100% know that the limiter was removed. But odds are good that it would be tuned.
This responds to the OP question... no need to open a useless debate...
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From: The Great White North
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
Razzy - you gained 30 whp by replacing the air filters, and then another 8 whp (and more torque) either out of thin air or possibly becaue someone upwind from the dyno farted and your engine ingested the methane in the fart. So - the only conclusion you can draw is that either clean air filters and a fart gave you 38 whp, or that the dyno numbers on your specific dyno are all over the place and not to be trusted.
And, I wasn't suggesting that you should put anything less than 91 octane in the car, only that some pumps (and if you're in the petroleum delivery business you already know this) have dirty fuel storage tanks or old gas where some of the ethanol evaporated or absorbed too much water, the mix either at the pump or at the depot isn't just right, or the tanker truck driver at the depot made the wrong blend selection. Furthermore, ever since enthanol addition became the norm in gas, gasoline refineries have literally changed their refining process and operations to produce cheaper subgrade gas, and now rely on the ethanol blending to bring the octane up. They have to use ethanol, so they make the cheapest gasoline they can get away with, and count on the ethanol to bring it up to spec. You work in the petroleum industry, so if this is not yoru area of specialization, ask some of your colleagues on the refining side and see what they say. Bottom line is - the stuff that comes out of the various pumps when you select 91 octane isn't always 91 octane. You willing to take that chance on your $80K+ car with a tune that gives you 4 extra hp with 91 octane gas over OEM but will start pinging if the gas is 90.6 octane instead of 91?
AMG Boost - the 451 hp C63 is an artificially restricted motor. The 2012+ P31 and 507 on the other hand are not. In fact, I was told by someone from MB that their tunes are either identical or nearly identical. So yes, MB misrepresented the number somewhat for marketing purposes, as there had to be a clear delineation between the different series using the M156 motor. They didin't want to cannibalize the sales of the E63 or CLS63 by offering a C63 that was faster, so the C63 had to produce lower numbers... on paper. Once the E/CLS/SL/S63 moved to the more powerful 5.5L biturbo, then the "507" was born that actually put out the 507 crank hp. Guess what? So do the 2012+ P31 cars. There are a number of dyno results from various owners and dynos that confirm this. Unlike the non-P31s, these engines are not artificially restricted. As for the (old) E63 having the same engine, it has either a different airbox or a freer flowing exhaust (I thin it was the exhaust - had this discussion here with someone not too long ago), which could certainly account for the extra 10 hp between the C and the E. Razzy's cleaner air filter just gave him 30 hp.
I've beating this dead horse for a while now - again, if you're interested, search for other threads on the subject - but the bottom line is there's no such thing as a free lunch. Daimler's annual R&D budget is now over $6 billion (it was $5.8 billion in 2011), and I think they know a thing or two about building engines. The tuners buy a used car or two and come up with miracles. Now, seeing as I also have first-hand experience with bulding engines and tuning cars, what I've said before still stands - that you can't get something out of nothing. On an engine that is otherwise unrestriced and properly tuned to begin with (like the C63 P31/507), the only wat to get extra power is by either sacrificing the safety margin or the longevity of the motor. Period.
And, I wasn't suggesting that you should put anything less than 91 octane in the car, only that some pumps (and if you're in the petroleum delivery business you already know this) have dirty fuel storage tanks or old gas where some of the ethanol evaporated or absorbed too much water, the mix either at the pump or at the depot isn't just right, or the tanker truck driver at the depot made the wrong blend selection. Furthermore, ever since enthanol addition became the norm in gas, gasoline refineries have literally changed their refining process and operations to produce cheaper subgrade gas, and now rely on the ethanol blending to bring the octane up. They have to use ethanol, so they make the cheapest gasoline they can get away with, and count on the ethanol to bring it up to spec. You work in the petroleum industry, so if this is not yoru area of specialization, ask some of your colleagues on the refining side and see what they say. Bottom line is - the stuff that comes out of the various pumps when you select 91 octane isn't always 91 octane. You willing to take that chance on your $80K+ car with a tune that gives you 4 extra hp with 91 octane gas over OEM but will start pinging if the gas is 90.6 octane instead of 91?
AMG Boost - the 451 hp C63 is an artificially restricted motor. The 2012+ P31 and 507 on the other hand are not. In fact, I was told by someone from MB that their tunes are either identical or nearly identical. So yes, MB misrepresented the number somewhat for marketing purposes, as there had to be a clear delineation between the different series using the M156 motor. They didin't want to cannibalize the sales of the E63 or CLS63 by offering a C63 that was faster, so the C63 had to produce lower numbers... on paper. Once the E/CLS/SL/S63 moved to the more powerful 5.5L biturbo, then the "507" was born that actually put out the 507 crank hp. Guess what? So do the 2012+ P31 cars. There are a number of dyno results from various owners and dynos that confirm this. Unlike the non-P31s, these engines are not artificially restricted. As for the (old) E63 having the same engine, it has either a different airbox or a freer flowing exhaust (I thin it was the exhaust - had this discussion here with someone not too long ago), which could certainly account for the extra 10 hp between the C and the E. Razzy's cleaner air filter just gave him 30 hp.
I've beating this dead horse for a while now - again, if you're interested, search for other threads on the subject - but the bottom line is there's no such thing as a free lunch. Daimler's annual R&D budget is now over $6 billion (it was $5.8 billion in 2011), and I think they know a thing or two about building engines. The tuners buy a used car or two and come up with miracles. Now, seeing as I also have first-hand experience with bulding engines and tuning cars, what I've said before still stands - that you can't get something out of nothing. On an engine that is otherwise unrestriced and properly tuned to begin with (like the C63 P31/507), the only wat to get extra power is by either sacrificing the safety margin or the longevity of the motor. Period.
Last edited by Diabolis; Aug 25, 2014 at 10:37 AM.
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C63 AMG
Razzy - you gained 30 whp by replacing the air filters, and then another 8 whp (and more torque) either out of thin air or possibly becaue someone upwind from the dyno farted and your engine ingested the methane in the fart. So - the only conclusion you can draw is that either clean air filters and a fart gave you 38 whp, or that the dyno numbers on your specific dyno are all over the place and not to be trusted.
And, I wasn't suggesting that you should put anything less than 91 octane in the car, only that some pumps (and if you're in the petroleum delivery business you already know this) have dirty fuel storage tanks or old gas where some of the ethanol evaporated or absorbed too much water, the mix either at the pump or at the depot isn't just right, or the tanker truck driver at the depot made the wrong blend selection. Furthermore, ever since enthanol addition became the norm in gas, gasoline refineries have literally changed their refining process and operations to produce cheaper subgrade gas, and now rely on the ethanol blending to bring the octane up. They have to use ethanol, so they make the cheapest gasoline they can get away with, and count on the ethanol to bring it up to spec. You work in the petroleum industry, so if this is not yoru area of specialization, ask some of your colleagues on the refining side and see what they say. Bottom line is - the stuff that comes out of the various pumps when you select 91 octane isn't always 91 octane. You willing to take that chance on your $80K+ car with a tune that gives you 4 extra hp with 91 octane gas over OEM but will start pinging if the gas is 90.6 octane instead of 91?
AMG Boost - the 451 hp C63 is an artificially restricted motor. The 2012+ P31 and 507 on the other hand are not. In fact, I was told by someone from MB that their tunes are either identical or nearly identical. So yes, MB misrepresented the number somewhat for marketing purposes, as there had to be a clear delineation between the different series using the M156 motor. They didin't want to cannibalize the sales of the E63 or CLS63 by offering a C63 that was faster, so the C63 had to produce lower numbers... on paper. Once the E/CLS/SL/S63 moved to the more powerful 5.5L biturbo, then the "507" was born that actually put out the 507 crank hp. Guess what? So do the 2012+ P31 cars. There are a number of dyno results from various owners and dynos that confirm this. Unlike the non-P31s, these engines are not artificially restricted. As for the (old) E63 having the same engine, it has either a different airbox or a freer flowing exhaust (I thin it was the exhaust - had this discussion here with someone not too long ago), which could certainly account for the extra 10 hp between the C and the E. Razzy's cleaner air filter just gave him 30 hp.
I've beating this dead horse for a while now - again, if you're interested, search for other threads on the subject - but the bottom line is there's no such thing as a free lunch. Daimler's annual R&D budget is now over $6 billion (it was $5.8 billion in 2011), and I think they know a thing or two about building engines. The tuners buy a used car or two and come up with miracles. Now, seeing as I also have first-hand experience with bulding engines and tuning cars, what I've said before still stands - that you can't get something out of nothing. On an engine that is otherwise unrestriced and properly tuned to begin with (like the C63 P31/507), the only wat to get extra power is by either sacrificing the safety margin or the longevity of the motor. Period.
And, I wasn't suggesting that you should put anything less than 91 octane in the car, only that some pumps (and if you're in the petroleum delivery business you already know this) have dirty fuel storage tanks or old gas where some of the ethanol evaporated or absorbed too much water, the mix either at the pump or at the depot isn't just right, or the tanker truck driver at the depot made the wrong blend selection. Furthermore, ever since enthanol addition became the norm in gas, gasoline refineries have literally changed their refining process and operations to produce cheaper subgrade gas, and now rely on the ethanol blending to bring the octane up. They have to use ethanol, so they make the cheapest gasoline they can get away with, and count on the ethanol to bring it up to spec. You work in the petroleum industry, so if this is not yoru area of specialization, ask some of your colleagues on the refining side and see what they say. Bottom line is - the stuff that comes out of the various pumps when you select 91 octane isn't always 91 octane. You willing to take that chance on your $80K+ car with a tune that gives you 4 extra hp with 91 octane gas over OEM but will start pinging if the gas is 90.6 octane instead of 91?
AMG Boost - the 451 hp C63 is an artificially restricted motor. The 2012+ P31 and 507 on the other hand are not. In fact, I was told by someone from MB that their tunes are either identical or nearly identical. So yes, MB misrepresented the number somewhat for marketing purposes, as there had to be a clear delineation between the different series using the M156 motor. They didin't want to cannibalize the sales of the E63 or CLS63 by offering a C63 that was faster, so the C63 had to produce lower numbers... on paper. Once the E/CLS/SL/S63 moved to the more powerful 5.5L biturbo, then the "507" was born that actually put out the 507 crank hp. Guess what? So do the 2012+ P31 cars. There are a number of dyno results from various owners and dynos that confirm this. Unlike the non-P31s, these engines are not artificially restricted. As for the (old) E63 having the same engine, it has either a different airbox or a freer flowing exhaust (I thin it was the exhaust - had this discussion here with someone not too long ago), which could certainly account for the extra 10 hp between the C and the E. Razzy's cleaner air filter just gave him 30 hp.
I've beating this dead horse for a while now - again, if you're interested, search for other threads on the subject - but the bottom line is there's no such thing as a free lunch. Daimler's annual R&D budget is now over $6 billion (it was $5.8 billion in 2011), and I think they know a thing or two about building engines. The tuners buy a used car or two and come up with miracles. Now, seeing as I also have first-hand experience with bulding engines and tuning cars, what I've said before still stands - that you can't get something out of nothing. On an engine that is otherwise unrestriced and properly tuned to begin with (like the C63 P31/507), the only wat to get extra power is by either sacrificing the safety margin or the longevity of the motor. Period.
Yes Dyno numbers can be everywhere in a sense. The number isn't necessarily the big deal. It's the delta between the baseline and after the tune pull. If the dyno said I was up 38whp and upon driving the car I couldn't tell a difference, than I would have already gone back and got a refund along with them wasting my time.
But the fact is, there is a difference that I can feel and hear. Not just numbers.
As for negative affects, I guess the jury is still out on that one. Before I went ahead with the tune I did my due diligence. I could not find anyone who got the Eurocharged tune and had negative affects. If the affects of the tune show up in the long run, that still remains to be seen.
In the end, me and along with a lot of other people can noticably tell a positive difference after the tune. And the numbers can also back that up. I don't think it's pulling numbers out of a hat sort of thing or a "placebo" affect so to say.
The tune must accomplish something where as the stock ECU config was not. MB likely had it toned down a bit due to emissions, and to have a consistant number regardless of sea level. I believe the tune opens up the taps and lets the throttle bodies fully open where as before they were capped.
Even if I hadn't gotten the tune and just replaced the filters with AFE ones and removed charcoal filters, the car would feel more alive just based on that. So in a way external factora can of course make a difference when it comes to performance as opposed to just the vital engine components.
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From: The Great White North
W204 C63 Coupe, W166 ML350 BlueTEC, 928GT, Taycan GTS Sport Turismo, C5 Z06 & IS300 race cars
I always feel a difference when I drive wearing my S-Car-Go Racing t-shirt, but that dooesnt make the car go any faster. A professional racer can feel a 5% change in power; an amateur can feel changes of 10% or more. The noise that you hear is your intake (if you're runing AFE and no charcoals), and yes, in combination with the new filters, the ECU tune can maybe give you 5-10 hp on top of the filters alone, assuming that they were creating an airflow restriction in the first place.
It's your car and you get to do with it whatever you want and whatever works for you. I wouldn't void my warranty for an extra 5-10 hp, but that's just me. Eurocharged seems to be more reputable then the rest of the tuners, but again, unless you start tinkering with the engine itself and tuning for the specific engine and mods, then any potential gains are going to be marginal at best and come as a result of a reduced safety margin.
P.S. As for the accuracy of the Eurocharged dyno, see https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...d-v5-tune.html... gets interesting about halfway down.
It's your car and you get to do with it whatever you want and whatever works for you. I wouldn't void my warranty for an extra 5-10 hp, but that's just me. Eurocharged seems to be more reputable then the rest of the tuners, but again, unless you start tinkering with the engine itself and tuning for the specific engine and mods, then any potential gains are going to be marginal at best and come as a result of a reduced safety margin.
P.S. As for the accuracy of the Eurocharged dyno, see https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...d-v5-tune.html... gets interesting about halfway down.
Last edited by Diabolis; Aug 25, 2014 at 11:52 AM.
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C63
Wow, didn't realize my question would ignite such a tuner war! I haven't been able to locate the owner of my car, but after calling a few tuners it sounds like one of them put a Powerchip tune on the car back in 2009. I'm thinking it's likely back to stock (dealer re-flash?) because it feels like all the other C63s I've driven.
There's a dyno 2 minutes from my office so I will probably have a dyno pull done at lunch one day this week to see how my numbers look. If they look stock, I'll go ahead with a tune since there are countless board members that have had great success with the various tunes available (OE, Eurocharged, etc).
Can anyone confirm that there is in fact a 4k rev limiter in neutral on a stock car vs tuned?
Thank you!
There's a dyno 2 minutes from my office so I will probably have a dyno pull done at lunch one day this week to see how my numbers look. If they look stock, I'll go ahead with a tune since there are countless board members that have had great success with the various tunes available (OE, Eurocharged, etc).
Can anyone confirm that there is in fact a 4k rev limiter in neutral on a stock car vs tuned?
Thank you!
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2012 C63;1971 280SE 3.5(Sold);2023 EQS 450 SUV 4 Matic (Wife's)
I have a 2010 P31 and I had to rev it to 4500 to set up my G-Tech. It did it no problem but I cannot remember if I did it in park or neutral. I know I would try park first so I am pretty sure I did it in park. If you do try it make sure the car is fully warmed up and the oil temp is 212* or higher.
