Wobble64

great pic, Jim!

oggie

How was the VIR? Was if fun given all the upgrades? :-)

BLKROKT

Well, unfortunately the whole story of that pic isn't so great...

It was good to meet you and Eric though!

Will post my review later - I'm driving all day back to NYC. In short, VIR is just EPIC. Car ran like a dream, RacingBrake brakes were ****ing AWESOME and never missed a beat. Was seeing 155mph on the straights, with lap times in the 2:17-2:23 range when I could get clear of traffic. Need r-compounds bad.

Wobble64

OK, so here is a bit more. I drove 8.5 hrs to VIR (and then the same back) and got to spend 20 minutes on track in the car. At the end of the first session I started to feel a slight vibration and by the time I was back in the pits, I lost air from my right front tire. Upon removing it from the car I saw that the 2 piece rim was coming apart. 11 bolts had already become so lose, that they fell out when turning the rim upside down. A couple I had already lost on the track. All other bolts on that rim were lose. At least on one more rim I have a bolt missing and a couple (4 lose). I barely avoided a disaster and fortunately had a trailer, so I could make it home.
What can I say - great track, great weather, great company (Blkrkt, Bigtickets), 4 AMGs, but a bad track day for me.
Love the RB brakes and saw several other cars with them on - everybody was full of praise (Corvette, Audi TT) for RB rotors!

Ironically I have more pictures from the scenic drive through the Blueridge Mountains than from the track as a result.

Diabolis

Ouch... that could have ended VERY badly. Glad the wheel didn't disintegrate on you. Am sorry you missed the event, but under the circumstances I think you ought to consider yourself very lucky indeed. That should NOT have happened - the bolts should have never been able to work themselves loose. What kind of wheels are they? Have they ever been disassembled and reassembled by someone who didn't exactly know what they were doing?

I missed my track day too, but it was by choice - the overnight/morning temperature was -4C and it got up to a whopping +5C on Sunday - apparently just warm enough to melt the frozen "rivers" running across the entire width of the track in two corners by about 3 PM in the afternoon. My tires would have had the consistency and grip of hockey pucks, so I didn't even bother to make the 2.5 hour trip each way.

The pics below are from the last track event I did on October 5/6 at Mosport - that was a much better day despite the occasional drizzle (which btw made for some interesting "Ooh $h!t" moments). And, the last pic is of me driving the GT S at the AMG DA the previous week - I thought I'd throw it in just for good measure.

RacingBrake

Hi Guys,

Sorry to learn that the event was not quite utilized due to some tire/rim issue, but that's a good try at least and I am sure next time you will be better equipped for better track compatibility.

Bigtickets

It was cold first thing yesterday morning in Alton VA. First run was cold for sure. Especially running up the twists towards the villas where the sun wasn't shining on the track. However, the track came into its own shortly before lunch. Towards the afternoon the track was getting super fast! Great meeting you guys and we will definitely get another one planned in short order. We will double check those rims next time twice Wobble!

The RacingBrake set up worked well. I ran my first session conservatively because I was running new brakes on R-comps on a freezing track with a car full of AMG guys! Wobble I owe you a cup of coffee. I didn't run my car again until my last session and I went out and tore it up with the Old Lady ridding shotgun. I was impressed with the initial grab of the RB set up. They were consistent throughout the temperature range and didn't seem to get too soft when I had them smelling hot.

Bigtickets

Wobble, the starter gave this to me during a red flag stint involving a Camero Z28 later in the afternoon. Apparently, it came out of the wheel when you turned at pit out. Disaster averted!! Diabolis, you would have cringed.

Wobble64

Yep, high quality DIN912 socket cap M6 screw, 12.9 rated (highest available strength). But they do break off. I have several exhibits.

Tomorrow the tires come off the rims and latest the day after all 4 rims get shipped to the manufacturer for inspection and repair. For now I will not speculate as to what exactly caused this, but I will let everyone know if there are lessons to be learned to stay safe.

BLKROKT

That's a joke, right Eric?
(He can drive the snot out of that car. People must have been absolutely ****ting themselves watching Eric scream by them first lap, of the first session - the "Instructor and Advanced" classes no less - on a freezing cold track, wearing NT01's, with Bernhard riding gun, and me bouncing around in the back. All the while under total control. Amazing.)

And there was ice on my car first thing in the morning. It was that cold.

Diabolis

Owning a car from that other Stuttgart-based company and repeatedly tracking it at PCA HPDE events over a number of years does have its advantages.

Regarding the bolts, I suspect that the ones that are broken broke AFTER the rest of them had worked themselves loose. The one that Eric is holding in the pic doesn't appear broken or stripped at all - it looks like it simply worked its way out. No bueno.

Glad to hear everyone made it back home safe and that at least some of you had fun. As the Bard would say, All's Well That Ends Well.

Wobble64

Agree. Everything I see regarding broken bolts and stripped threads, air leak etc. probably just started as a few bolts coming lose, then allowing movement and starting a chain reaction.

I would not have made it another lap.

Phil Chow

What wheels are they?

I've heard of this happening before. It looks like the bolts are only threaded into the faces, unlike how BBS or OZ doe stheir racing wheels, they have a nut on the back.

Does it look like the manufacturer used loctite to lock them down? They should typically use loctite to make sure that the bolts and nuts don't back themselves out.

1-Piece Wheels are the best for sustained track abuse, not to say that 3-Piece Wheels don't, but, ones that are only threaded into the face aren't IMO.



Pic for Reference, the BBS E88s and Motorsport Wheels use heavier duty ones, and stronger ones, but BBS keeps the same philosophy even with their standard 3P Wheels.

Glad you caught it before anything happened Wobble, but I would NOT be happy with my wheel manufacturer!

Granted, I don't track my car, but if I did, it would be a set of 1-Piece Wheels or BBS/OZ 3-Piece Motorsport Wheels.

This is just my opinion, valid or not, but I believe that wheels such as 3-Piece/2-Piece Wheels that thread into the faces such as ADV1, PUR, 360 Forged, iForged, all of these newer "3P" companies, they look great, but, they're just not track wheels. Light tracking, yes, I think they'd be fine, daily driving, not an issue at all, but hardcore sustained tracking, I don't think they hold up too well. Truthfully, I still don't think anything comes into comparison in terms of quality like BBS/OZ/HRE, but, to each their own!

Sorry to go off topic a bit! Hope you get things resolved Wobble!

Diabolis

I agree with most of Phil's comments above - but even with 3-piece wheels where the bolts are threaded into the face, this shouldn't happen under any circumstances. I know plenty of PCA memebers and know of many professional racing teams using FIKSE wheels that are reverse-mounted like Wobble's - I used to have two sets myself for one of my track cars - and haven't heard of a single failure like this.

If I am not mistaken, those are ADV.1s - Jordan Swerdloff's second company after the 360 Forged rip-of scam. Numerous quality (sic) issues have been *well* documented as have his lies about TUV certification and what not. Wouldn't touch ADV.1 if they gave me a free set of wheels every month. Yet another testament to ADV.1's deplorable quality.

In case you're not familiar with Jordan's company history and all the lies behind it, you can read my posts at https://mbworld.org/forums/c63-amg-w...nt-future.html (see posts 5, 8 and 22 in particular) - I've linked enough material there from other sites that ought to convince you of just how bad ADV.1s really are.

Phil Chow

Ahh, ADV1s. Known to have leaking faces because wheels weren't cut properly, and also balancing issues. Not to mention his TUV Certs being fake, but, that's another story.

Oh, yes, Fikse is another brand. I think it's simply just poor quality QC. It holds up find on the street, but not at extremes on the track. Especially with the heat/vibration generated, it causes everything to expand ever so slightly, which allows the bolts to back themselves up. Doesn't look like they're using Motorsport Grade Hardware, but then again, these aren't motorsport wheels.

I'm just saying, some loctite could've potentially solved this issue. However, the problem with that is, if they use Red Loctite, and lets say they ever have to take them apart, and a bolt snaps, they're **** out of luck because it threads into the face. Which, is why the majority of multi-piece motorsport wheels, will use a nut.

Anyways, enough rambling. Wobble, for your safety and everything, I would NOT want those wheels back. Daily driving, sure, I guess, but I would not track hard on them again to be honest with you. If some bolts truly are snapped, they are near impossible to get out of the face without damaging the face, which, is likely going to cause vibration issues.

You've spent a very pretty penny on your vehicle, I can tell, and you love to drive it. Invest into a set of quality wheels that you know won't have any issues.

CCW
Fikse
BBS
OZ
HRE

It's true, their styles aren't as "new" and "hip" as ADV1s some might think, but, they're tried and tested and proven. Or at least get a set of these for the track, and a different set for dailys!

Diabolis

^ Word.


Here's just a couple of examples of ADV.1s fine workmanship:


http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=664569 (these loook the same as Wobble's)


http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=717258


The horrors continue.

zcct04

Truth - first time I've ever seen Shakespeare quoted on a gearhead thread . . . Kudos to Diabolis for elevating the overall level of sophistication here!

Wobble64

All,
I appreciate your well meant comments, tips and ideas. I really do and sincerely thank you for them! And the proposals about what to use and what not for tracking also are pretty much my thoughts. High quality, mono-block rims look awfully attractive, for sure. And finally, I also appreciate the warnings about previous quality issues and customer complaints ADV-1 has had - helpful guidance for future wheel purchases.

However, let's give the manufacturer of my rims the time needed to diagnose and make things right. I am going into this with an open mind - and obviously I am taking this very seriously - my life depends on wheels and I do not want to take risks there.

The rims have left today and are on their way to the manufacturer. It will take at least a week before I have clarity. Hopefully not longer. I'll get back to you, as soon as I have news.

Wobble64

Phil, I am also hearing good things about Forgeline as reputed makers of racing rims. Plus they apparently are in Dayton, Ohio, in my front yard, so to say. Do you know them?

Bigtickets

Blkrokt I got your text about the vibration on the way home with the XT970 pads with the RacingBrake Bsbk. Wobble64 had mentioned this earlier in the thread. How many sessions do you have on them now? Also, are you going to pull them out this weekend? I'm curious because the pad deposit on your rotors looks similar to mine. I've only got the two sessions on mine and there is no vibration but a lot of noise. I'm going to Roebling on Friday for an event and I've got a few 30 minute blocks. I'm going to run a set of heat cycled sticker NT01s and I'm going to see what I can get out of these RacingBrake rotors and pads. The weather is supposed to be pleasant, dry and 82. What experience did you have with them this past Monday at VIR? Especially later in the day.

Phil Chow

Forgeline is also good for the track! A lot of the Porsche guys like running them also.

I hope ADV1 takes care of you! You definitely paid a fair amount for these wheels, hopefully you get a better experience than other people have. Best of luck.

Hmm, if you're getting pad deposits, your pads may not be aggressive enough for the type of tracking that you're doing. I used to get some pad deposits on my previous cars when I would track hard, and when swapping to a more aggressive compound, it seemed to solve that issue. But, take that with a grain of salt, I'm not sure if that applies to everybody and all cars.

IIRC, Pad Deposits are essentially the pad that gets "melted" onto the rotor, and the only way to get them off, is to essentially try and brake hard to try and "melt" the deposits off the rotor, or use a new pad to "clean" the rotor sort of thing. I could be wrong though!

Wobble64

FWIW, I also had issues with the RB XT970 pads - same symptoms, vibrations after tracking. They had glazed and cracked and overheated the rotors. Then I changed to track pads (XR70) and all was fine at the next track day.

Even the XR70s are soft for track pads and still leave some deposit. As a result they were worn after 6 sessions of 25 minutes at Mid-Ohio. Pads from other firms (Hawk, Carbotech) are harder and leave the rotors silver and shiny. I have tried the Hawk DTC70 and have seen Corvettes with RB rotors using Carbotech.

BLKROKT

Thanks for the feedback guys. I'm going to talk to Warren and see what he has to say. Could just be deposits, although I did try to get them clean with a few high-speed stops.
With that said, on track these things did their job. GREAT stopping power, I never had a worry going into a corner.

Couple of pics for reference, although I know it's difficult to diagnose from pics

Rear rotors look totally fine as you would expect them to look



Front rotors have a strange splotchy pattern to them. These are where the vibration is coming from.




This was the first track day on them, so 5 sessions. I installed, bedded them (twice), and drove down to VIR. The brakes had about 100mi on them before the trip down.
There is zero squeeling now, and the initial bite is now considerably less than before the second bedding and VIR.

Brakes were great on track. The brakes were more than my tires could handle at the end of the sessions when they were greasy.

Phil Chow

That looks like pad deposits to me. You might be overheating the XT970s a little bit, which is causing them to cook on the rotor.

Pretty sure you'll need an even more aggressive compound for it to hold up on the track for you.

BLKROKT

I agree the dark areas look like deposits. I'm more concerned with the spotty areas where the rotor itself is discolored.

Will get to the bottom of it, not worried about it. Probably just not the right pad for heavy tracking.