xxaarraa

Since none of you knuckle heads will quiet down and let Jerry speak....

Calm down. I don't know you or purple, but several of his recent posts reek of immaturity, huge assumptions, incorrect information and stating the blinding obvious. My first impression was "God, another 23 year old who has gotten a hold of the C63 now that its pretty affordable in the used car market"

No, me or the others asking Jerry/EC to clarify their drivetrain loss assumption don't have to go to a drag strip and run numbers. EC advertises a set of numbers to the common man. We are trying to better understand how they got to those numbers and if their assumptions are valid. Yeah yeah, every car is different and the only truly correct numbers are on the dyno/track. That's not rocket science and we all agree. Kapish?

Judging by their complete silence, I am starting to think EC concedes their claim of 545 bhp is overrated and they can't quite backup objective explanation for assuming such a high drivetrain loss to get to 545 bhp. Chalk it down to over zealous marketing, I suppose.

AMG3.2

I take offense to that

CarHopper

...

...

When people reply to threads, it keeps them at the top and relevant. Therefore, when EC opens their doors on Monday it is more likely they'll see this thread and respond.

Also, because you're well educated, you understand that you can pick up a phone and give Eurocharged a call and speak to someone with regards to this matter.

Can you please tell me my mistakes and incorrect assumptions? I, like everyone else, like to learn. I also have humility so if I'm proven wrong I openly say so and will correct myself.

Actually, what I proved in post #45 is that dyno's are inconsistent and wont give truly correct numbers. The track is a far better gauge when you have an experienced driver behind the wheel along with proper documentation (track conditions, actual weight of the car, modifications, and multiple consistent runs).

http://www.superstreetonline.com/how...in-power-loss/

"Differential losses tend to be considerably larger, especially in the case of RWD and AWD vehicles where the torque path is turned 90 degrees as it enters the rear diff and exits it toward the rear wheels."

And as I stated in post #45:

Unfortunately, an LSD is not standard from factory in our cars. Furthermore, it is very, very rare that a tuner will include an LSD in their dyno graphs so knowing whether or not a car has an lsd is tough.

I also admitted that the 19% loss may be a little high. However, upon further research and looking at other peoples dyno charts, I found these numbers (which you must've missed so I'll remind you):

Stock: 362whp / 359 wtq
Tune: 442whp / 405wtq
Roughly 18% loss here

Not unreasonable to assume EC came across a car with 19% losses, especially with others out there proven as high as 18%, too.



Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

CarHopper

With that out of the way....

Lets get back to what is really important here and the drivetrain loss. For those looking for some info you can see some quick calculations in post #45 with regards to drivetrain losses and other c63's.

Otherwise, wait for EC to respond here (they're great, and they'll eventually get to this) or if you want answers sooner give them a call:

United States -- 713-462-1600
Canada -- 416-739-9997

zcct04

Purpleheart,

We're taking your calculator away after 9pm!
No offence, but your math on drivetrain loss is totally wrong. It looks like you calculated the gain in dyno HP from a tune and then divided by the tuned dyno HP. That is NOT drivetrain loss.

Drivetrain loss is the difference between Wheel HP and crank HP. You subtract WHP from crank HP and then divide by crank HP. We can't measure crank HP (and we know that it would vary widely based on build quality, environmental conditions and the dyno used) but the published 451 HP from the factory is all we've got, so that's what we have to use. Results from the examples you posted:
367 stock WHP = 19% loss
362 stock WHP=20% loss
332 stock WHP = 26% loss

What you calculated IS is pretty close to the percent gain from tuning, altho you should have divided by the stock dyno HP to get that. You would have found gains of 16%, 23% and 22% difference in WHP between stock and tuned. Lots of variability, but still very impressive results from a tune!

xxaarraa

PurpleHeart, thanks for making my point. I could care less about your uniform, makes no difference to me in a car forum. The moment soldiers start wanting to be praised for their service is the moment they should realize they are serving for the wrong reasons. How many times have you used that bookmark since 2010 to earn brownie points?

I call you out for being a dimwit and you post videos of you in uniform? Douche. Confirmed. You can quote that.

CarHopper

Those were just for you love Glad you could enjoy

As for the losses... Zcct's math has some of the examples above that 19% from EC. I don't think their claims are that unreasonable.

(zcct, I figured out how xxaarraa was calculating and used the same method. Just got 19% off the charts EC posted and used the same method each time)

jptaylor

Where I come from what you just said justifies Purple or anyone else dragging you out into a field and kicking the living **** out of you in FRONT of your "partner"..... and I know at the very least Jordan feels the same way

skratch77

Am I the only one who thinks that car is not stock in the dyno? The car only picked up 12-15ftb with a tune but is making a monster amount of torque and power to begin with.

Ec are u sure that is a stock car? Please explain how a stock car is making well north of 400 rwt

I just dynoed my bone stock 13 development car with row air boxes and made 359 rwt on the same dyno as you and row boxes are good for 10whp so lets say my development car is making 390whp

Are you saying a stock 507 with charcoal filters makes 431whp and 423rwt?

Here is my stock car back to back runs on the same dyno.how is a stock 507 making 41 more whp than me(assuming my row boxes are worth 10whp)

And your torque is insanely high for a stock car.

Are u sure this car is not catlless or with headers and have the wrong listing?

Please explain

xxaarraa

Is that so? I hear where you come from (looking at your sig) you also marry your cousins. And generally can't read or speak well. And have teeth missing. No one gives a **** what its like in Alabama or Georgia. Relax tough guy.

jptaylor

Wait for it........

CarHopper

Thanks for this. Mind was scrambled a bit dealing with other, erm, issues here. But you're absolutely right, I was just getting at the gains which did turn out to be pretty close haha.

Just hoping people read through thoroughly and find your post. Then they can plug in either 451, 481, 507 or whatever they "started" with and use their own dyno results to calculate what drivetrain losses they have.

Thanks buddy

CarHopper

Just wait for Darwinism to catch up to him on one of his bikes.

I made some mistakes in other posts, but just went over them with zcct and things still check out in a direction that favors higher drivetrain loss than people would think.

Another member posted and asked whether or not EC was strapping a stock car down onto the dyno. One issue they probably run into are people buying cars second hand that are already tuned and they don't know it. So when the show up at EC and ask for a baseline dyno, tune, and then dyno and don't see massive gains they question EC. Or, in your case, the "stock" numbers end up being quite a bit off course from what you were expecting.

jptaylor

No baseline on mine but I think the numbers show that AMG was WAY optimistic with 451 from the factory....if all things were equal between their dyno and mine the TUNED loss would still be 16% off factory numbers....DynoDynamics with zero correction and BIP(Tony Lawshee)tune, ROW, exhaust made 389/383...another member here with p31 481hp car with tune only made 389/389 on the same dyno on the same day

CarHopper

I think it is a combination of both, honestly. I think that these cars are rated a tad high from factory and the actual drivetrain loses are a bit higher than most would assume using industry standards for rwd and blah blah.

That said, some of the cars out there are actually quite strong. I know it isn't a w204, but the w205's are putting down some pretty nice stock numbers. But even some w204's are proven to be quite strong and meet or exceed factory claims.

I forget the guys name (Matt Ferra? the heavy bald guy that tests a bunch of cars on youtube) used 20% drivetrain loss and took some serious flack for it in the comment sections of one of his videos. There was no response, but he may have some more knowledge on this matter than others. Even in his 850 hp weistec video I think he uses a 15% loss.

skratch77

Am I the only one who thinks that car is not stock in the dyno? The car only picked up 12-15ftb with a tune but is making a monster amount of torque and power to begin with.

Ec are u sure that is a stock car? Please explain how a stock car is making well north of 400 rwt

I just dynoed my bone stock 13 development car with row air boxes and made 359 rwt on the same dyno as you and row boxes are good for 10whp so lets say my development car is making 390whp

Are you saying a stock 507 with charcoal filters makes 431whp and 423rwt?

Here is my stock car back to back runs on the same dyno.how is a stock 507 making 41 more whp than me(assuming my row boxes are worth 10whp)

And your torque is insanely high for a stock car.

Are u sure this car is not catlless or with headers and have the wrong listing?

Please explain

CarHopper

Tried to shed some light into your question, but obviously you'll have to wait for EC to respond. I don't think it would be out of the ordinary for a customer to walk in thinking their car is stock, but actually tuned by a previous owner.

thesaintusa

I am surprised that Weistec or other tuners, have not pulled a motor and put it on an engine dyno.

Hopefully (optimistically) that has been done and some further insight can be had.

skratch77

Cmon you telling me ec can't tell just buy looking at the torque curve and numbers the car is tuned or not?

CarHopper

No, I'm telling you they can. They just haven't been asked that question. Also, you have seen how inconsistent dyno readouts can be in this thread alone.

All I'm doing is telling you some possibilities into why the numbers may have come out the way they are.

Guys, if you need answers right this minute pick up the phone. The impatience here is a little... tiresome. Give it time and in the mean time read some advice from members. It may not be perfect, but it makes sense.

BLKROKT

I an tell you exactly what EC is going to say. Comparing different cars on different dynos in different atmospheric conditions is a fool's errand.

The only thing dynos are good for is to ascertain the effect of a specific set of modifications done to a specific car. You can make a dyno read anything you want, either deliberately or by mistake.

Every single car is different - makes different power from the factory, has worn differently, has been maintained differently, uses different gas, etc. I really am failing to see what the problem here is. You are never going to replicate their results every time.

All of this hand-wringing over dyno numbers, and drivetrain losses, and some cars reading differently than others, is really just a demonstration of ignorance and misuse of what a dyno is really for.

EC is never going to give you an answer you want to hear, because what you want to hear only exists in the fantasies in your heads.

CarHopper

They don't get it, they refuse to get it, and they know more than anyone else does. I've tried to explain it but because I can be abrasive I'm a fool. So I guess we should just let this thread die as we wait for a response.

If I was EC I wouldn't even respond here at this point.

BLKROKT

Exactly. It's not a conspiracy. Jerry is probably reading this and shaking his head wondering why he does anything for a platform with such ignorant finger-pointing owners.

deadlyvt

Purple is right... The point of a rolling dyno isn't to pinpoint your exact hp number for bragging rights it's to figure out if modifications produced gains or not...

Edition1c63

Eurocharge, on your website you say you adjust for elevation. Do you do this through data logging with the mygenius? I'm assuming you use the o2s through the ecu to tune? If this is the case I will pull trigger here shortly and do a before and after dyno for my elevation of 6200 ft.