Procharged C63 Project
08-05-2016, 02:53 PM
#26
Super Member
It's not just brackets, it's programming the ECU with a custom tune due to the different ramp up of this blower as to the other blowers that were developed with software and hardware combined.
There is just no room to run intercooling piping, custom brackets from the crank, and at least 8 feet of 2 1/2 inch tubing with 45's and 90 degree bends from the Procharger to the intercooler and into the intake manifold, which would all have to be custom.
But to me, this is a cake walk till you program and tune which will be the biggest nightmare of the entire project.
I spent 15k on the parts and install and spent another 18k on different injectors, knock sensors, and electronic tuning and never had to deal with the electronics of the Mercedes, and I had a ton more workable room in a 67 Camaro.
There is a reason that these places like Renntech and Weistec don't do this. I give the OP credit to want to do this, but this will be a nightmare for a shop like them to do it. If I was the OP I would call one of these shops and pick their brain and see if this is doable for a decent price.
There is just no room to run intercooling piping, custom brackets from the crank, and at least 8 feet of 2 1/2 inch tubing with 45's and 90 degree bends from the Procharger to the intercooler and into the intake manifold, which would all have to be custom.
But to me, this is a cake walk till you program and tune which will be the biggest nightmare of the entire project.
I spent 15k on the parts and install and spent another 18k on different injectors, knock sensors, and electronic tuning and never had to deal with the electronics of the Mercedes, and I had a ton more workable room in a 67 Camaro.
There is a reason that these places like Renntech and Weistec don't do this. I give the OP credit to want to do this, but this will be a nightmare for a shop like them to do it. If I was the OP I would call one of these shops and pick their brain and see if this is doable for a decent price.
08-05-2016, 07:56 PM
#27
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I'd agree with the doomsday crowd too tbh, it will be very expensive, unless you can eradicate most of the fabrication costs yourself and get to the tuning phase with loads of cash ready to throw at it. I'd love to see it happen, but I think if you're aiming for north of 700hp, you might want to build up the motor too.
Ahh I dunno. Depends on your goals ultimately. Personally, i think a revised intake manifold or the SLS intake manifold with cams to push the power band higher and then adding a stage 3 weistec blower will be insanely fast in the real world.
I saw a video of Brad's stage 3 weistec this week and it made me seriously think about getting a charger the next time one becomes available.
Ahh I dunno. Depends on your goals ultimately. Personally, i think a revised intake manifold or the SLS intake manifold with cams to push the power band higher and then adding a stage 3 weistec blower will be insanely fast in the real world.
I saw a video of Brad's stage 3 weistec this week and it made me seriously think about getting a charger the next time one becomes available.
08-05-2016, 10:07 PM
#28
Super Member
Which model procharger are you thinking about? I had a D1 pullied for 15 psi on my old cobra. Loved it, the sound, the power band, etc.
My intercooler was pretty big though. Be interested to see if it can fit behind the AMG nose piece without much cutting.
I am in the bucket where I don't think tuning would be that big of a deal either. Typically centrifugal units are easier to tune vs roots blowers. Since folks like EC, OE, Webster, etc already have the ability to get into the EEC, shouldn't be all that bad. If HPtuners is looking to get into it, that will be awesome too. Definitely will require dyno time with a tuner to get right.
But the intake manifold, mass air meters are going to require a new layout unless a big somewhat flat oval fixture comes up from the front to attach to the air intake tract.
I think the ideal setup to compare to is the procharger kits on 99-01 cobras. They had a reverse mount setup where the pulley sits in line with the factory belt routing. That way you don't have to worry about adding a extra pulley on the crank to drive the blower like I did on my 93 cobra
My intercooler was pretty big though. Be interested to see if it can fit behind the AMG nose piece without much cutting.
I am in the bucket where I don't think tuning would be that big of a deal either. Typically centrifugal units are easier to tune vs roots blowers. Since folks like EC, OE, Webster, etc already have the ability to get into the EEC, shouldn't be all that bad. If HPtuners is looking to get into it, that will be awesome too. Definitely will require dyno time with a tuner to get right.
But the intake manifold, mass air meters are going to require a new layout unless a big somewhat flat oval fixture comes up from the front to attach to the air intake tract.
I think the ideal setup to compare to is the procharger kits on 99-01 cobras. They had a reverse mount setup where the pulley sits in line with the factory belt routing. That way you don't have to worry about adding a extra pulley on the crank to drive the blower like I did on my 93 cobra
Last edited by QWKSNKE; 08-05-2016 at 10:14 PM.
08-05-2016, 11:04 PM
#29
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Given the problems some have reported with the stock intake manifold even at atmospheric, I'll bet it won't like much psi before it shows up as the weak link. Will be interesting to see if EC addresses this in any way on their twin turbo build.
08-06-2016, 07:06 AM
#30
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Thread Starter
Which model procharger are you thinking about? I had a D1 pullied for 15 psi on my old cobra. Loved it, the sound, the power band, etc.
My intercooler was pretty big though. Be interested to see if it can fit behind the AMG nose piece without much cutting.
I am in the bucket where I don't think tuning would be that big of a deal either. Typically centrifugal units are easier to tune vs roots blowers. Since folks like EC, OE, Webster, etc already have the ability to get into the EEC, shouldn't be all that bad. If HPtuners is looking to get into it, that will be awesome too. Definitely will require dyno time with a tuner to get right.
But the intake manifold, mass air meters are going to require a new layout unless a big somewhat flat oval fixture comes up from the front to attach to the air intake tract.
I think the ideal setup to compare to is the procharger kits on 99-01 cobras. They had a reverse mount setup where the pulley sits in line with the factory belt routing. That way you don't have to worry about adding a extra pulley on the crank to drive the blower like I did on my 93 cobra
My intercooler was pretty big though. Be interested to see if it can fit behind the AMG nose piece without much cutting.
I am in the bucket where I don't think tuning would be that big of a deal either. Typically centrifugal units are easier to tune vs roots blowers. Since folks like EC, OE, Webster, etc already have the ability to get into the EEC, shouldn't be all that bad. If HPtuners is looking to get into it, that will be awesome too. Definitely will require dyno time with a tuner to get right.
But the intake manifold, mass air meters are going to require a new layout unless a big somewhat flat oval fixture comes up from the front to attach to the air intake tract.
I think the ideal setup to compare to is the procharger kits on 99-01 cobras. They had a reverse mount setup where the pulley sits in line with the factory belt routing. That way you don't have to worry about adding a extra pulley on the crank to drive the blower like I did on my 93 cobra
Last edited by Blake_von_Texas; 08-06-2016 at 07:08 AM.
08-06-2016, 07:41 AM
#31
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Thread Starter
Also, after reviewing the dimensions of the compressor unit and further inspection of available space (or space that can be made available) in the engine bay, it seems that I may be able to fit the system under the hood without anything sticking out. The deciding factor at this point is the routing of the air delivery.
08-06-2016, 10:09 AM
#32
Super Member
08-06-2016, 10:24 AM
#33
Super Member
The D1 is what I have been considering. Eurocharged recently made over 600rwhp running under 7lbs of boost on their TT M156 project. Given the minimal amount of power required to drive the procharger compressor unit, along with the turbine's power efficiency; I think anything over 10-12 lbs would just be plain excessive. Also, thank you for the info on the reverse-mounted setup, I will surely look into it. I will be discussing and dissecting the project with Eurocharged much more in the coming weeks and part of the discussion will be to address the possible weak link that is the stock intake manifold. If a sheet metal, competition style manifold could be fabricated to both fit under the hood and accommodate sensors, that is the route I would like to take. As for the tune, eurocharged had great success tuning their twin turbo m156, which posesses an even more foreign boost profile (than a centrifugal supercharger) when compared to a top mounted supercharger. Jerry knows what he is doing. Also, thank you to everyone who has given their opinions on the project. I am partly relying on the wealth of knowledge possessed by you community members to steer me in the right direction on this project
Also, to reduce costs, once you figure out which kit to modify I would find a used kit rather than buy new.
Now, I need to pop the hood on mine to poke around
08-06-2016, 11:28 AM
#34
[QUOTE=Mazspeed;6879093]I run a procharger on my 67 camaro. I am very familar with the unit and I do like it, but not for the C63. I would absolutely not run it for the car. It does better on higher rpm motors. I would not play with it.
Lol, yes C63 only has 7250 rpms pretty high in my book.
Lol, yes C63 only has 7250 rpms pretty high in my book.
08-06-2016, 02:06 PM
#35
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[QUOTE=AMG6.3;6880194]
The 6.2 is very torque heavy. Where is the useable power for the 6.2? It's before 5500rpm. Just because the engine can go to 7250rpm's doesn't mean that's where all the useable power is.
And why do you continue to PM me questions on the V5 tune and everything else under the sun if you were going be sarcastic to a question in which I answered?
I don't mind the 20 or so questions you filled up my inbox with, but I do mind not saying thanks and then being rude afterwards.
You should have bought a vette!
Edit: When I say "it does better on higher RPM motors" this has been my personal experience with the D1. I also had both rebuilt due to the wrong cylinder fill per size with the car. You can change the fins on the blades so that if you gain engine size "stroker" you don't have the change the entire charger, you change the blades for less or more volume.
The 6.2 is very torque heavy. Where is the useable power for the 6.2? It's before 5500rpm. Just because the engine can go to 7250rpm's doesn't mean that's where all the useable power is.
And why do you continue to PM me questions on the V5 tune and everything else under the sun if you were going be sarcastic to a question in which I answered?
I don't mind the 20 or so questions you filled up my inbox with, but I do mind not saying thanks and then being rude afterwards.
You should have bought a vette!
Edit: When I say "it does better on higher RPM motors" this has been my personal experience with the D1. I also had both rebuilt due to the wrong cylinder fill per size with the car. You can change the fins on the blades so that if you gain engine size "stroker" you don't have the change the entire charger, you change the blades for less or more volume.
Last edited by Mazspeed; 08-06-2016 at 02:14 PM.
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saint13 (08-09-2016)
08-08-2016, 03:12 AM
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
not sure what the point is. sure be the first guy on the block to do this. 500 instant wheel torque at idle is hard to beat. maybe you should ride in a wiestec car before you waste your time. There's always something better or more efficient but if it gets the job done, proven reliability and haulsass why reinvent the wheel? The tt -c63 has a built motor with way lower compression thats alot of extra $$$$, 10-12psi on an 11:1 compression motor is just not pump gas friendly and a terrible idea. Plan to run exclusively e85 or race fuel and you're good. As for stuff sticking out of the hood, dont do that non sense. this is a mercedes amg car not a cheap honda p.o.s.
08-08-2016, 03:16 AM
#37
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To be fair, that's only how EC happens to be building their turbo car. Lower psi on a P31 car would be totally fine on street gas. Even that psi what's the issue. You have guys running 10-13psi on Weistec SCs without built engines, and SC psi is no different than TT psi. And I'm pretty sure it could be done on less $ too, but we don't know those details yet.
Last edited by BLKROKT; 08-08-2016 at 03:46 AM.
08-08-2016, 04:32 AM
#38
Member
[QUOTE=Mazspeed;6880302]
The 6.2 is very torque heavy. Where is the useable power for the 6.2? It's before 5500rpm. Just because the engine can go to 7250rpm's doesn't mean that's where all the useable power is.
And why do you continue to PM me questions on the V5 tune and everything else under the sun if you were going be sarcastic to a question in which I answered?
I don't mind the 20 or so questions you filled up my inbox with, but I do mind not saying thanks and then being rude afterwards.
You should have bought a vette!
Edit: When I say "it does better on higher RPM motors" this has been my personal experience with the D1. I also had both rebuilt due to the wrong cylinder fill per size with the car. You can change the fins on the blades so that if you gain engine size "stroker" you don't have the change the entire charger, you change the blades for less or more volume.
because he is right 7250 is high for a larger displacement v8. and with tune that's what 7500 so how much higher reving do you need? my m3 runs a vortec v3 I rev it to 8600 but most stop turn at 8200 which is much higher then the 7500 a c63 is well capable of. plus that would also move the power to the higher rpm to make the car usable unlike all positive displacement blowers that burn the tires down at 3k rpm. just saying.
The 6.2 is very torque heavy. Where is the useable power for the 6.2? It's before 5500rpm. Just because the engine can go to 7250rpm's doesn't mean that's where all the useable power is.
And why do you continue to PM me questions on the V5 tune and everything else under the sun if you were going be sarcastic to a question in which I answered?
I don't mind the 20 or so questions you filled up my inbox with, but I do mind not saying thanks and then being rude afterwards.
You should have bought a vette!
Edit: When I say "it does better on higher RPM motors" this has been my personal experience with the D1. I also had both rebuilt due to the wrong cylinder fill per size with the car. You can change the fins on the blades so that if you gain engine size "stroker" you don't have the change the entire charger, you change the blades for less or more volume.
08-08-2016, 09:17 PM
#39
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C63 amg Custom 67 Camaro GLK 350 4matic 2017 AMG GTS
[QUOTE=Properstyle;6881519]
There is revving to 7250rpm's and then there is useable power to 7250 rpm's. Also a tune doesn't change that and go to 7500 rpm's. Look on this graph and tell me what you see.
http://www.eurocharged.com/products/...-software.html
because he is right 7250 is high for a larger displacement v8. and with tune that's what 7500 so how much higher reving do you need? my m3 runs a vortec v3 I rev it to 8600 but most stop turn at 8200 which is much higher then the 7500 a c63 is well capable of. plus that would also move the power to the higher rpm to make the car usable unlike all positive displacement blowers that burn the tires down at 3k rpm. just saying.
There is revving to 7250rpm's and then there is useable power to 7250 rpm's. Also a tune doesn't change that and go to 7500 rpm's. Look on this graph and tell me what you see.
http://www.eurocharged.com/products/...-software.html
08-08-2016, 09:21 PM
#40
Member
Redline is set electronically not mechi ally on c63 lol. A procharger car rarely tappers at redline so please don't show me a all motor graph.
08-09-2016, 12:32 PM
#41
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No Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We all know the redline is electronically set. But not where the engine makes less power. That's the design of the engine. Typically a bigger displacement engine is going to rev lower than a small displacement engine.
A procharger car rarely tappers at redline?
You do understand that you can set it to whatever you want right? If you had an 9000 rpm motor, you can set up a procharger to go that high if needed. Different pulleys, blow off valves, even custom compressor designs.
The Graph shows you it doesn't go that high. What part of this do you not understand?
You tell me the tune goes to 7500 rpm and then you say not to show you the graph from the company that makes the tune that it doesn't?
08-11-2016, 03:42 PM
#42
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Thread Starter
Ok guys I think there is a little confusion here as to boost curve of a procharger. Yes the initial boost curve (after pressurization of the cavity upstream from the throttle body) is in direct relation to the RPM of the motor (this could be represented by function Y =1X), however, you do not need to redline the motor in order to achieve desired boost. With a properly selected compressor paired with appropriate boost purge characteristics, you will reach a viable amount of boost early in the RPM band, and that level of compression will be increased all the way to redline. The flexibility of modern forced induction setups allows for nearly limitless application and thats why I am working on this project.
Also, I have a great update; After some brief discussion with MBH Motorsports, I believe I will be selecting them to take care of the custom fabrication aspects of the Intake and Intercooler design. May the claims of this project being a "eBay build" or a "honda p.o.s." setup be dispelled! I have too much respect for the work of Affälterbach engineers to tarnish it with mediocre modification.
Also, I have a great update; After some brief discussion with MBH Motorsports, I believe I will be selecting them to take care of the custom fabrication aspects of the Intake and Intercooler design. May the claims of this project being a "eBay build" or a "honda p.o.s." setup be dispelled! I have too much respect for the work of Affälterbach engineers to tarnish it with mediocre modification.
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Vpatriota (05-12-2019)
08-11-2016, 04:37 PM
#43
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Ok guys I think there is a little confusion here as to boost curve of a procharger. Yes the initial boost curve (after pressurization of the cavity upstream from the throttle body) is in direct relation to the RPM of the motor (this could be represented by function Y =1X), however, you do not need to redline the motor in order to achieve desired boost. With a properly selected compressor paired with appropriate boost purge characteristics, you will reach a viable amount of boost early in the RPM band, and that level of compression will be increased all the way to redline. The flexibility of modern forced induction setups allows for nearly limitless application and thats why I am working on this project.
Also, I have a great update; After some brief discussion with MBH Motorsports, I believe I will be selecting them to take care of the custom fabrication aspects of the Intake and Intercooler design. May the claims of this project being a "eBay build" or a "honda p.o.s." setup be dispelled! I have too much respect for the work of Affälterbach engineers to tarnish it with mediocre modification.
Also, I have a great update; After some brief discussion with MBH Motorsports, I believe I will be selecting them to take care of the custom fabrication aspects of the Intake and Intercooler design. May the claims of this project being a "eBay build" or a "honda p.o.s." setup be dispelled! I have too much respect for the work of Affälterbach engineers to tarnish it with mediocre modification.
08-12-2016, 07:40 PM
#44
Member
No Duhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. We all know the redline is electronically set. But not where the engine makes less power. That's the design of the engine. Typically a bigger displacement engine is going to rev lower than a small displacement engine.
A procharger car rarely tappers at redline?
You do understand that you can set it to whatever you want right? If you had an 9000 rpm motor, you can set up a procharger to go that high if needed. Different pulleys, blow off valves, even custom compressor designs.
The Graph shows you it doesn't go that high. What part of this do you not understand?
You tell me the tune goes to 7500 rpm and then you say not to show you the graph from the company that makes the tune that it doesn't?
A procharger car rarely tappers at redline?
You do understand that you can set it to whatever you want right? If you had an 9000 rpm motor, you can set up a procharger to go that high if needed. Different pulleys, blow off valves, even custom compressor designs.
The Graph shows you it doesn't go that high. What part of this do you not understand?
You tell me the tune goes to 7500 rpm and then you say not to show you the graph from the company that makes the tune that it doesn't?
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Vpatriota (05-12-2019)
08-13-2016, 03:03 PM
#46
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oh my god guy. You posted a na dyno which show the motor tapering which is why they would have stopped at 7200, It would make no sense to continue to rev a motor out that is clearly starting to loose power. how ever with a procharger that would not be the case. either way. a c63 has more than enough rpm to use a centrifugal charger. which is what you are acting like it does. yet multiple LS motor use them oh wait ls motor are know for 8k rpm oh wait nope there not yet they make great power with them lol....
You either don't understand any of this or you're not reading any of this. And how is the procharger going to change the natural RPM limit of the stock motor? Typically when you boost a motor, your limit comes down anyways, even if you take the same motor and made it a 5.5. Boosted motors typically don't rev as high as a NA motor does. So how will the pro charger make it a higher RPM motor? This I have to hear.
08-13-2016, 03:56 PM
#47
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A centrifugal S/C rpm is a direct function of the engine rpm. This makes tuning easier as boost is a direct function of engine RPM.
Now for boost you can play with a couple of things: 1) pulley size - you can pulley down for higher boost at lower rpm.... then run a blow-off valve to discharge pressure up top to some limit. 2) or you can run the smaller pulley and run lower c/r pistons and not release boost @ XX psi.
I would try to run an air/air I/C, low c/r pistons, and high boost....... and avoid all the band-aides for a daily driver:.... no ice tank, no water-air i/c, no meth spray.......
If it is only a track toy.... then do all above and heck even add a 50 shot for cooling effects.
All of these centrifugal blower tricks have been tested and tried many times on many other platforms.
The difference being the ECU on other platforms was totally accessible to the avg enthusiast....... so you could custom map your car at the track, and on the street w/o the need for $100/hr tuners........
There is a big difference between A) a dyno tune that keeps A/F safe on a WOT pull on a dyno with no heat soak for Max HP/TQ..... and B) a tune that is fully sorted and drivable in all situations and throttle conditions and with heat soak, and after adaptations.... etc.... etc....... I had a vortec blown car that was tuned on a dyno @ WOT for Peak HP/TQ..... but was no fun to drive on the street... .and had part throttle deto w heat soak..... I'm sure you already know all of this if you are undertaking this project.
GL with this build...... I would have an end goal in mind with HP/TQ ..... street or track....... then take a realistic look at what you need to get there... with major decisions being: lower c/r pistons?....... water-air ic, or air-air...... run the math on predicted boost and pulley size and engine RPM......... other considerations are whether to p/p heads....
then fuel system upgrades to support hp/tq plans......
then what fuel to run?....
then what gas is avail?......
then do you want a street tune and a track tune with 107?.......
g/l..... can't wait to see what you decide.
BTW I would consider this a fail if you kept stock high c/r..... and had to limit boost to 3.5psi due to heat soak deto issues..... you will not be happy with the results...... also remember 5 psi from a turbo is more HP/TQ than 5psi from a centrifugal blower.... since the blower sucks up HP to drive it..... can be 50+HP to turn the blower!!! so you have to make up for that parasitic effect........ I'm sure you know all of this already... so pardon if this is known stuff.
Now for boost you can play with a couple of things: 1) pulley size - you can pulley down for higher boost at lower rpm.... then run a blow-off valve to discharge pressure up top to some limit. 2) or you can run the smaller pulley and run lower c/r pistons and not release boost @ XX psi.
I would try to run an air/air I/C, low c/r pistons, and high boost....... and avoid all the band-aides for a daily driver:.... no ice tank, no water-air i/c, no meth spray.......
If it is only a track toy.... then do all above and heck even add a 50 shot for cooling effects.
All of these centrifugal blower tricks have been tested and tried many times on many other platforms.
The difference being the ECU on other platforms was totally accessible to the avg enthusiast....... so you could custom map your car at the track, and on the street w/o the need for $100/hr tuners........
There is a big difference between A) a dyno tune that keeps A/F safe on a WOT pull on a dyno with no heat soak for Max HP/TQ..... and B) a tune that is fully sorted and drivable in all situations and throttle conditions and with heat soak, and after adaptations.... etc.... etc....... I had a vortec blown car that was tuned on a dyno @ WOT for Peak HP/TQ..... but was no fun to drive on the street... .and had part throttle deto w heat soak..... I'm sure you already know all of this if you are undertaking this project.
GL with this build...... I would have an end goal in mind with HP/TQ ..... street or track....... then take a realistic look at what you need to get there... with major decisions being: lower c/r pistons?....... water-air ic, or air-air...... run the math on predicted boost and pulley size and engine RPM......... other considerations are whether to p/p heads....
then fuel system upgrades to support hp/tq plans......
then what fuel to run?....
then what gas is avail?......
then do you want a street tune and a track tune with 107?.......
g/l..... can't wait to see what you decide.
BTW I would consider this a fail if you kept stock high c/r..... and had to limit boost to 3.5psi due to heat soak deto issues..... you will not be happy with the results...... also remember 5 psi from a turbo is more HP/TQ than 5psi from a centrifugal blower.... since the blower sucks up HP to drive it..... can be 50+HP to turn the blower!!! so you have to make up for that parasitic effect........ I'm sure you know all of this already... so pardon if this is known stuff.
Last edited by betrezra; 08-13-2016 at 04:03 PM.
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Mazspeed (08-13-2016)
08-13-2016, 07:26 PM
#48
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I would suggest the sls intake if it weren't so insanely priced if you could dive one used it would be much better for a turbo or pro charger setup
08-13-2016, 08:15 PM
#49
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Last edited by BLKROKT; 08-13-2016 at 08:40 PM.
08-13-2016, 10:28 PM
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I bet if this project actually goes from idea to product the car is down for a year and it costs at least twice as much as a Weistec blower when all is said and done.
Call me what you want and use this as motivation to prove the internet wrong if you're that type of person, but the light at the end of the tunnel on this project is about as big as a pixel on my 60'' tv right now.
I wish we could add polls mid thread and start taking the over under on say, 12 months? Follow that up with another on never completed or completed.
Again, use this as fuel to your fire if that's what you want to do. I'm hoping that this was just an idea that is being drawn out and will just become another fart in the wind. Or, it becomes a real thing and I'm wrong. Either way, I'll be happy.
Call me what you want and use this as motivation to prove the internet wrong if you're that type of person, but the light at the end of the tunnel on this project is about as big as a pixel on my 60'' tv right now.
I wish we could add polls mid thread and start taking the over under on say, 12 months? Follow that up with another on never completed or completed.
Again, use this as fuel to your fire if that's what you want to do. I'm hoping that this was just an idea that is being drawn out and will just become another fart in the wind. Or, it becomes a real thing and I'm wrong. Either way, I'll be happy.
