Sathinas

This morning, I had to call the nice people at MB roadside assistance.

I met with a friend for coffee this morning, and when I left the coffee shop, I heard a loud bang. First thought? "ABC hose. Good. Gives me a good excuse to replace all of you with custom made high pressure hoses". Looked at the message center expecting a red warning message, only to see ABS and ESP error messages....

"WTF, over?"

Then I realized I wasn't accelerating when I pressed on the go-go pedal... Pulled over, stopped, put the tranny in park and heard the park pin catch for a few turns.

As I was awaiting for the phenomenally grumpy tow truck driver to arrive, I did some redneck diagnostics. Either the differential (spider or pinion) gear is toast to the point they are not talking to each other, or drive shaft flex disks broke. I don't know if the flex disks could be bad, as I don't remember if the drive shaft halves are supported on each side of the flex disks. If they are, it's a possibility. If they are not, then I doubt it, since I'm not dragging drive shafts. One of the half shafts could be busted instead, but I doubt this to be the case.

Now, for the record? I'm not complaining, *****ing or moaning about what a pos the cl65 is. It's a part (whatever may have broken) that broke. Crap happens. Fix it then go enjoy it again.

Have any of you guys experienced any such or similar failure?

Yawnald

Woah! We'll need pics of the carnage, of course!

Sathinas

Well... That's just it...

No carnage is visible with the car on the ground. I left the car at the dealership and about 10 hours later, once I got back with a different ride to offload all the stuff I bought this morning, there were no oil stains or wet spots under the car... None.

I used a flashlight to see if I could spy the drive shaft, but I could only see a tiny short length of it, looking forward from the rear of the car, along the differential. I couldn't tell much except that... the driveshaft was... there.

The differential (what I could see of it ), was bone dry and couldn't see any holes in it.

So... I just don't know what carnage to expect.

saintz

I take it you didn't try restarting the car? It sounds like the engine stalled out. Why is the question.

Sathinas

Saintz, with all due respect... do I strike you as that big of a car idiot? Had I said something to the effect of "OMG! The car made a loud bang and it didn't go when I stepped on the accelerator! I don't know what's wrong!?"... then, I suppose your question about restarting the car would have been a valid one.

But... silly me, I figured that most people would have gotten the idea that I have an inkling about what may be wrong, what with the contents of my first post. As such, most would have gotten the idea that I know the difference between exhaust filter fluid and blinker fluid. And that I also know the difference between a running engine and a stalled engine, when I press on the go-go pedal. And, yes, there is such a thing as Exhaust filter fluid.


But seriously...

Of course the engine didn't stall. As a matter of fact, in park, the engine idles smooth as silk... like it always does. This is why I'm not even concerned about this being an engine issue.

We'll see what the techs find on Monday or Tuesday.

As far as why... is the question? Where did I lose you?
I was addressing people here with the 215/220 platform who may have had something similar happen to them.

BlownV8

Sometimes the car with kick out of gear if you get on it too hard spinning the tires near readline. Just turn it off and back on and it will go. Not sure if you tried this but it may be the issue. I think it is something with the torque limiter. It happened a few times with my tuned 600.

saintz

Based on your description, it sounded like you tossed a rod through the block. Loud bang, car has no power, ABS lights on dash (which sounds like a stall). Still not sure what you're saying happened, but glad to hear the motor isn't FUBAR.

Sathinas

Never had an automatic transmission kick out of gear... A manual, sure. Auto... never. Not saying its not possible, I just don't see it.

No, it didn't pop out of gear, unfortunately.

The motor is not FUBARed. If it were to have put a rod through the block or exploded in general, I think it would be the first M275 motor to do so. I've never read about one blowing up. I could have missed an article about one doing so, somewhere, too.

What I think happened is either the Transmission tail housing/output shaft is gone, drive shaft flex disks are busted (and thereby the drive shaft is "broken" or the differential is toast.

I'm confident the transmission itself is fine. Something is broken past the transmission.

Sathinas

Boy, was I wrong...

Apparently, I did break a half shaft. Left side... which of course, took out the wheel bearing as well as the hub.

About 2500 dollars worth of labor and parts. If I had the car closer, I'd have done the labor myself. It's a hub, bearing(s) and a half shaft.... Nothing too complicated. The only thing I would need help with is setting the wheel-end bearing setting.

Either way... Honestly, it's the last thing I suspected. I just didn't see a half shaft going south like that before other parts past the transmission would go first.

chawkins2001

Why would the shaft snap like that? Did you romp hard on it with the car dead hooking? Is your ecu on the OEM tune?

Sathinas

I presume the shaft snapped because the tires are a little too um... sticky. Yes, I was accelerating, but nowhere near "1/4 mile track" acceleration levels.

The ECU tune is slightly warmer than the factory tune.

Either way... It is what it is. Stuff breaks when you "play". Time to get it fixed and go play again, ya know?

Benz-O-Rama

Can't believe it wasn't the muffler bearings. Because if it were, all you need is a right angled wood bender, and you'd be on your way.

1/2 shafts are common failures on cars with tuned M275s that dead hook. I've seen Stephens s600, Jays CL600 and Camdon's SL65 grenade those rears.

Sathinas

Part of what happens when you combine traction with a lot of torque and a lot of weight...

chawkins2001

Ok, that makes more sense, you running a drag outback?

RaceHorse

I've asked this question a million times and I still have yet to pull the trigger... Would an LSD help prevent this? I thought Stephens s600 had the Kleeman LSD...(but also a small power adder so hard to compare) I don't know if it was before or after carnage that he installed it. Also Camdon's SL had the stock LSD...I guess better than nothing and that still went. Correct me if I am wrong, but Jays CL had a stock open rear like this car and mine as of now. Is it A)The dead lock single tire getting whacked with ALL the torque??? or B)No matter what, even with a LSD it will still happen with monster torque and sticky tires. I guess if I want to feel all warm and fuzzy inside I could leave the car stock, but how much fun is that???

saintz

LSD should make it break more easily.

With an open diff, the power goes to the wheel that spins. So if you hook one and spin the other, the burnout is the one getting power. Sucks for your time slips, but gentle on the half shaft.

With an LSD, if you hook a wheel and spin the other, you can more easily break a shaft because the hooked wheel is still getting torque.

Not to say you can't break one on an open diff, but it's harder, as you'd have to stick both wheels enough to break it.

mxzxracer16

Doesn anyone know where to find or who makes the LSD differentials for the CL65's? I would be interested in one. I had a quaffi in my e55 and loved it.

Sathinas

This question has been covered ad nauseam. Kleemann, Renny and a couple of others have options for full LSD's or "partial" LSD's.

RaceHorse

I disagree... I could see if you were to say you have a better chance of breaking a ring gear with an LSD since with the LSD BOTH wheels are going to be getting the torque making it much harder for the tires to break free. From what I hear (and its been mentioned a bunch of times here as well)if heated up properly its hard to get drag radials to spin on a launch with these cars even with an open rear. So if thats the case and track prep along with sticky tires gives you traction to only one wheel, the same wheel that is trying to break free to spin, thats the half shaft that will get hit with ALL the torque. Also he mentioned it broke leaving from coffee, I would guess that he was making a turn where the wheels are traveling at different speeds so the power could have been transfered from one side to the other at peak torque. All going to one side and causing that side to break. On regular street tires on the street my car spins so smoothly sometimes if it wasn't for the orange triangle or radio off you wouldn't know, no traction in a sense. Too smooth with the torque management and more reason for a TCU. I did notice a huge difference on the track with a little bs burn out on only street tires. I know its hot, but how about some 1/4 mile times for m275 CLs, OP sorry to go off, Hope the car is fixed soon and you are back to fun. still very happy with my 11.34 @125.9 on PS2s, don't think its beatable with our 100+ degree weather in NY right now so I'll wait.

chawkins2001

Sorry to the open but I could not resist, mxracer, how would you compare the cl65 to your e55. Were any of them modded and which one feels quicker?

saintz

If neither wheel breaks free, it doesn't really matter if you have an open diff or LSD. Both are getting hammered about the same.

On a corner, the outside wheel rotates faster meaning it will get more torque. Most LSDs are variable enough that you can corner without binding the LSD, meaning the LSD basically acts like an open diff around a corner. It's only when you have real wheel slip (like a 30% difference in rotation rate, or whatever the diff is rated at) that the LSD kicks in.

KLR CLS

You couldn't be more wrong. The LSD equally distributes the load to both wheels in a straight line equal traction situation. Load to each axle is halved. Open diff will definately grenade before the LSD as the one side would be always be more torsionally loaded.

Too bad downtime is a concern, cause $2500 would have got you custom 1000hp half shafts from DSS.

saintz

Just to be clear, you're saying that the wheel that is doing a burnout is the one that will break a half shaft? Not the wheel that is hooked?

In a "straight line equal traction situation" it doesn't matter if you have an LSD or open diff, they're both getting the same torque. An LSD only matters if you have different wheel speeds, due either to not being a straight line, or not being equal traction.

I've seen AWD drives cars break a shaft (Subaru). It's almost always the rear (they have a viscous LSD in the rear and generally an open diff in the front). The problem is that with AWD, you tend to stick all 4 wheels, and then the motor pushes until one breaks. With an open diff, generally a tire will break loose before the engine can snap a shaft. Once the wheel breaks loose, all the power goes into smoking the tire, not breaking the shaft.

Edit: in fairness, there is a scenario where the open diff is worse. With drag radials that will hold more torque than the engine can make (like Mustangs pulling a wheelie) the open diff will allow one wheel to receive more torque but still hold and hence snap. On street tires, though, the wheel should burn out, instead and the open diff will basically funnel power into burning rubber instead of snapping.

saintz

Sathinas, are you on stock diff with street legal DRs?

KLR CLS

Sorry, I was describing the second situation, where you have the traction to stick your given power level. I have hoosier Dr's that will stick a dead hook and wrinkle wall. The only thing that has saved my diff is the LSD.