gun4hire

Interesting thread - I'll check it out

gun4hire

Update: top still doesn't work and now it won't even go up on it's own after working two times.

I checked the other thread about the windows rolling down by themselves - my windows power down/up just fine - so I'm reluctant to pull apart the overhead panel without more belief that it will resolve anything.

Anyone know of a good indy shop in the San Antonio, TX area? I've about had it trying to troubleshoot this. lol

Top Hydraulics

If there is enough current drawing to make the lights dim, plus the pump doesn't run, then there is a high chance of the electric motor on the pump being fried.

This is a pretty normal failure mode for the pump motors: they either burn out when the relay gets stuck and keeps them running, or they gradually have less and less power and eventually don't turn any more. This would be consistent with the roll bar still having worked before, because raising and lowering the roll bar takes the least pressure or pump power of all top functions.

Top Hydraulics rebuilds the pumps for a fraction of what the dealer will charge you for a pump, which would be refurbished as well.

W208 CLK-Class hydraulic pump part numbers for reference:
2088001048 aka A 208 800 10 48 (model years 1998 and 1999)
2088000230 aka A 208 800 02 30 (early to intermediate model years up to VIN -070017)
2088001748 aka A 208 800 17 48 (all models starting with VIN -070018)


http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/w...ulic-pump.html


Klaus


www.tophydraulicsinc.com

gun4hire

Rear headrests still work though which, according to GatorMB, means the pump is working. Is this incorrect?

Top Hydraulics

My apologies - I was assuming that the roll bar/head rests had quit working in the meantime, and should have asked first.

If the head rests are still moving, then the pump is still pumping.

If there is significant current draw and it's not the hydraulic pump motor, then I wonder if a window motor is getting power when you are pulling the switch. Do you still see the same dimming after pulling the fuse for the window motors? (I don't own a CLK - don't know where it is)

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com

gun4hire

No worries, ya just scared me there. I really dont want to have to replace the pump. lol

They only dim slightly - not a lot. I will play with it a little more and if I can't resolve it, I found the name of a reputable local independent shop. I want this top working soon! lol

GatorMB

I hate to see someone throw in the towel but intermittent electrical problems coupled with hydraulics can be a B!@#.

I am willing to bet on a stretched or shorted wire on the electrical side.
The Hydraulic fluid might be contaminated as well causing intermittent control valve operation.

These types of repairs will take some tedious labor and much patients. Like operating on carburetor's and transmission valve bodies from the old days.

I just read another thread of a man in Jamaica working on his for 1 year and all that was wrong was the pressure bleed screw. He saved a lot of money with patients and help from others.

All the Best, Gator
Ps keep in touch and let us know what you find???

gun4hire

I have tons of patience, but I really don't know what I'm doing so I'm just shooting in the dark trying different things out.

I've searched this site and googled for the location of all the micro switches... there is no definitive information on the internet regarding ALL the switches, their locations and order of functions.

• I've tested the rear bow lock switch, and it functions - but I'm unclear whether that switch should be open or closed with the rar bow in the locked position.
• I've tested the covertible 'hatch' switch, and it functions - but again, should it read an open or closed curcuit when the hatch is open?
• The trunk lock works normally both from key fob and from the console...I even pulled that microswitch and it tested fine also.
• I'm under the impression that there is at least one other microswitch on the hydraulic lifting cylinders, but where?
• Windows all work normal both from the key fob IR, from the console switches AND the double-flip of the convertible switch.
• The rear headrest/rollbar goes up and down, so at least I know the motor itself is ok.
• The closing of the roof WAS working and just stopped after working 2-3 times (non-consecutive)... I'm at a loss as to what is different now then it was when it worked.

All of these symptoms point out that whatever the problem is, it's not the typical issues members of this forum report.

If I were somehow able to trigger each solenoid individually, at least I may be able to narrow it down. Of course, a shop can just hook it up to their computer and probably pull the code in 30 seconds. I dont have that luxury.

The indy shop I found doesn't have appointments until next week anyway, so I may have time to fiddle with it more this weekend. At least all the interior of the trunk is still out of the car, so that should save some shop hours of uninstall/reinstall.

Sorry for the long post and rant...just a little frustrated with this little car. lol

Serndipity

Just in case you have not already seen this .pdf, re-posting it here.

gun4hire

I had not seen that in my searches, thanks for posting it. It will give me a few more things to check. Unfortunately, it still doesn't specify whether switches should be 'open' or 'closed' when the top is up/down. :o/

Top Hydraulics

Most limit switches are "normally open", but some of them are "normally closed", with reference to the electrical signal given when the switch is not activated. It should be good enough for you to see if the switches click in the proper position, and you can verify with a multimeter whether they are actually switching at that point. When you can hear a switch clicking, it will almost always do its part electrically. If there is a problem with a switch not giving the proper signal to the controller, then it is almost always either the switch not getting pressed for some mechanical reason, or a bad wire going from the switch to the controller.

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com

gun4hire

I played with it some more, and all the switches appear to be operating as they should based on movement of the latches. Still a no-go on the top. I'm starting to wonder if its the control module itself.

GatorMB

Your getting close,
The headrest down limit, and trunk circuit are all that is holding the top enable.
The top has worked a couple of times. The controller should be ok. I would not rule out a bad circuit in the micro-controller side of the sequence of operations. Can be internal/external system problem though. Wiring @ control module
Microcontrollers are ROM unless someone has re-flashed, I doubt it. NVROM is easily tweaked in the transmission and engine modules with interface.
The only checks left are control valve functions @ pump.
I did not want to get this deep but you have a good troubleshooting attribute.

Cheers, Gator
Battles at the top are awesome.

gun4hire

LOL! Thanks. I'm an analyst by nature.

I checked each switch in order as they are on the PDF. Page 5 lists a "cover closed switch" and a "cover open switch" separately, but I only found one switch there. I also did not check the "soft top locked limit switch" as it correctly drops the windows when the soft top is unlocked. I also could not test the "soft top fabric bow up/down limit switch" since it's fairly inaccessible without major work.


re: the headrest down limit - I did not see this switch on the PDF. This leads me to a few questions:

If the headrests are all the way down - and I continue to press down on the headrest switch - should I continue to hear a noise? Or should a switch signal that they are all the way down and the motor kick off?

GatorMB

I just read a post about service on the headrest mechanism. The rear seat has to remove by pulling up near the carpet meeting area. I haven't tried mine yet.
We might need a WIS or All data pin-out of the controller to test each interlock as dismantling the car is going to be a real B!@#.
The headrest must be completely down and the trunk closed. http://amgmarket.com/amg-manuals/
found you guys a link for manuals.

Gator

gun4hire

An update: I chose to go ahead and turn it in. Thus far, they haven't gotten to the bottom of it but they ruled out an electrical issue. The mechanic thinks that either the pump itself is weak or that the hydraulic ram is somehow bypassing the actuators.

Has anyone heard of or been diagnosed with something similar?

Top Hydraulics

Internal bypasses are very rare in W208 CLK hydraulic cylinders, and a loss of pressure inside the pump is very common. Top Hydraulics can test the pump, find the cause for the pressure loss and fix it for good, if necessary.

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/w...ulic-pump.html

2088001048 aka A 208 800 10 48 (model years 1998 and 1999)
2088000230 aka A 208 800 02 30

2088001748 aka A 208 800 17 48 (all models starting with VIN -070018)


Klaus


www.tophydraulicsinc.com

gun4hire

OK, another update: They identified the problem as the rear bow latch mechanism. (not the hydraulic system and not the switch). Parts and labor (INDY shop) is $960).

I think I'm gonna tackle it myself for that kind of coin on such an accessible part.

How does the metal mechanism go bad??? :o/

gun4hire

Klaus, you have been a big help and I'd like to give you the business if possible. I noticed that you have a hydraulic cylinder/lock combo. Do you think that replacing the cylinder at the same time is the way to go, or is there an option to just purchase the lock alone?

Top Hydraulics

I haven't seen a single CLK rear bow latch mechanism p/n 1247700426 go bad by itself yet, yet we ship and receive them practically every day. Ask the shop what is wrong with the mechanism. It's easy to remove - take it out and examine it.

Klaus

www.tophydraulicsinc.com

gun4hire

I actually took that mechanism out and disconnected it from the hydraulics. It seemed to be stiff ... kinda hard to move but I applied some graphite and it loosened up a bit.

...and since everything is apart, does $960 for that seem a little high? It's held on by about 2 bolts and maybe a C-clip or two where it connects to the hydraulic piston rod...sheesh!

I'll talk to the mechanic when I pick it up in the morning. It's too late to get it today.

gun4hire

So when I went Saturday morning, the mechanic was not there. However, they did supply me with the part number of what he said needed to be replaced:

2087500984 640R/ 515c

When I looked it up, I come up with "FOLDING TOP CASE COVER CENTER TO REAR SEAT REAR PANEL".

$960

Funny thing though...when I manually put the top down I can use the power top to put it back up - so that's working again.

Top Hydraulics

When you take out the lock, follow the wires you have disconnected and see if they are damaged! Or check out the wires before even taking out the lock.

I haven't seen a case cover lock go bad by itself yet, either.
Dealer list price for p/n 2087500984 is $640. You can see this part referenced in the drawing I attached to a previous post. We can sell you one for far less money, but I would take a close look at it first to see that you really need a new one. Send it over to Top Hydraulics with a reference to this thread, and I will check it out myself and report to the forum.

The numbers "640R/ 515c" are not part of the part's official part number. I'm curious about the change of parts - did they originally tell you "rear bow latch mechanism", or was it only what you thought they were talking about?

Klaus

http://www.tophydraulicsinc.com/en/w...-assembly.html

www.tophydraulicsinc.com

gun4hire

The only wires should be going to the micro switch, right? I did successfully test the switch itself at the connector. The shop had also previously confirmed there was not electrical fault in their test.

I mentioned to them that you stated you had never seen one go bad, but then the receptionist mentioned that the guys was a certified mechanic with 35 years experience....and I said "ok". lol

It was a receptionist that told me the rear bow mechanism was faulty - not sure if she got them mixed up, but the mechanic wrote the part number that needed to be ordered on my paperwork.

I'm kinda with you on the 'how can it go bad' bandwagon - since it works when I'm putting the top up.

Thanks again, Klaus -you've been a huge help.

GatorMB

The cables need replacing or repairing by the passenger cover hinge as mentioned earlier. there is probably 1 strand of wire making when the top wants to work, also check for hydraulic fluid saturating the limit on the hatch/bow lock.
Glad you found it, Thanks Klaus for the added input. We hoped to save you some bucks and enjoy the fresh air.

Cheeers, Gator