craiglunt

Hi - and thanks in advance for any assistance. I'm not new to reading this forum - but this is my first post as I just cant seem to figure this one out.
I recently had to replace my bow lock - thanks to top hydraulics for the speedy service! After replacement - the top will go up, the storage compartment cover will go down and the bow lock will lock - so it seems like the hydraulics are all working fine and I can see no more evidence of any leaking anywhere ( the cylinder remains at the full level). My issue seems to be that when lowering the top, it will fully retract into the storage area - but the storage compartment remains in the up position. The top switch at that point is not flashing - it's solid red, and further operation of the switch will run the pump - but the storage cover remains in the up position. I've read through a lot of threads - but have not run across diagnosis for this specific problem. Is there something I should be looking at that informs the cover to close when the top is fully retracted?

craiglunt

So just a little more information: I had my wife retract the soft top all the way down and then physically tried to ( move ) lower the cover while she held the switch- it seems "locked" and wouldn't move towards the down position at all - so it seems at this point that the cover hydraulic cylinder is getting pressure ( to raise it) hold it in the open position but not switching to lower the cover when the top is fully retracted. It will move if the switch is let go and the pump stops though. Not sure if this bit of info is any more help.
Thanks!

Serndipity

craiglunt....welcome to the forum and providing a detailed description of not being able to lower the soft top case cover, when opening your power roof.

In addition, include the model year of CLK, because in MY 2001, MB updated many of the power roof system and a number of the components are not compatible, between early and later production (e.g. pump assembly uses fewer solenoid/value, case cover closed position switch configuration and controller programing).

When the soft top compartment cover will not close, or only closes slowly, the culprit can be one of the following.

- Ambiguous or faulty soft top position/limit switch input(s) to the controller
- Faulty actuation of a hydraulic pump solenoid
- Leaking hydraulic cylinder (including internal leaks that prevent the intended 2 way extension)

I believe that while replacing your leaking rear bow lock cylinder, a position/limit switch was set out of killer with respect to the controller programing.

Hint: per the enclosed stages of roof operation vs.required switch actuation's, at stage 9 when lowering the roof, upon drawing a venn diagram, the likely suspects are with the 'soft top cover closed/locked' A25 s1/s2, 'soft top open still open' S84/13S2, or with the S84/15 'rear bow up/down up/down' switches.

Often the switch actualization's, become out of kilter with the controller, while manipulating the roof, while replacing a faulty cylinder.

My initial suggestion would be to re-synchronize the power roof controller programing with the position/limit switches. The procedure is explained, in detail, in your owner's manual.

Upon doing the, advise further.

craiglunt

Serndipity - Thanks for the advice - this is an MY2002 ( with the 5 solenoids). Tried to "resync" by turning the key off and then to position 2 again with no change.

Serndipity

craiglunt.........I should have been more clear, the procedure to re-synchronize the power roof's position/limit switches is done by opening and closing the roof manually.

When you open/close the roof manually, all the position/limit switches are set in the proper condition that the controller expects to see.

The procedure for closing the roof manually is described in detail in the practical hints section of your owners manual. Opening the roof would be the same steps, but in reverse.

The procedure starts by turn a screw that reducing the hydraulic system pressure, so you should be able to lower and close the soft top compartment cover. When your all done opening and closing the roof manually, don't forget to turn the screw back to restore full system pressure before attempting power roof operation.

craiglunt

Thanks Serndipity,

I did all this ( manually lowered the roof to close cover locked position and then manually raised the roof to closed cover and bow locked position etc. as per the manual)
Now what happens is I 1) unlock the roof 2) windows retract, pull on top switch - top switch blinks slowly and nothing else happens.

Top Hydraulics

Hello craiglunt,

Thanks for all the detailed info. This is an unusual failure, and I cannot pull a rabbit out of the hat with an instant diagnosis based on the symptoms. My prime suspect right now is Serndipity, thanks for your detailed responses - your input is always excellent!

This establishes that the pump 2088001748 is not burnt out, and a solid red light should mean that the controller is waiting for the signal that the top is fully retracted before it enables the storage cover (aka tonneau cover or case cover) to close. That signal has to come from both the soft top open/closed limit switch assembly and from the fabric bow up/down limit switch assembly. We know that the solenoid for moving the storage cover lift cylinder 2088000272 works, because you stated earlier that the top closes all the way.

There is obviously a problem with a position sensor or with the harness going from a sensor to the controller.
Note that the red light went from being solid while the storage cover was still up with the top down, to flashing when the top was up. A flashing light would likely indicate an illogical readout of the top's position. Let's first check if the rear bow lock micro switch is giving you the wrong signal. Do you get a warning chime when you put the car into gear with the top up?
If there is no chime, then there may be a problem with the readout from the soft top open/closed limit switch assembly S84/13S1 S84/13S2, as Serndipity pointed out. Normally, I would suspect the rear bow up/down switch assembly (clipped onto the left rear bow cylinder 2088000172, because it is prone to failure and it is supposed to signal 'fabric bow down' at stage 8. However, it seems to be working (might be intermittent, though) based on the fact that the top was previously closing all the way. Better double check this one, as well.

Please keep us posted,

Klaus



Top Hydraulics' facility in Florence, OR




W208 CLK cabriolet hydraulics location diagram

craiglunt

Thanks Klaus and Serndipity.( Trust me to have the "unusual" fault.
When the top closes - I do indeed get a chime ( prior to engaging the front lock) telling me the top is up.
Doesn't look like I can chase the top SW84 13s1/13s2 wiring without removing the rear seat side-panel. So am going to opt to remove the harness connector from the Controller and chase it that way. Question: should I completely power down the car prior to removing the connector ( i.e disconnect the battery) - or can I remove it "hot? ( key switched off). Also - the diagrams I have indicate that I'm looking for pin 33 and 31. I'm also assuming that with the top open - the corresponding switch is "closed" and should indicate that it is grounded?

Top Hydraulics

My question was actually whether you get a warning chime once the top is up and you put the car into gear. It is possible to get the warning chime once the car is in gear, as well as the 'finished' chime right after the rear bow has locked.

Good question about disconnecting the negative battery pole before taking the connector off the controller - I would clearly do that.
There is always a brown ground wire going to the switch assemblies, and I assume that they all share the same lead into the controller. I have never checked whether the brown micro switch 'Ground' wires in the harness are also directly connected to Ground, or only indirectly by going into the controller's Ground. You will find out, and I'd like to know the answer... Some micro switches in the soft top system have reverse logic as a fail-safe, which means they are normally closed. In this case, they are probably normally open. What matters, is that you see the switches changing as indicated in the diagram that Serndipity posted earlier:

craiglunt

Hi Klaus: Here are the results:

With the limit switch in the position that it would be in with the top up:
S84/13s2 ( soft top opened limit switch) open
S84/13s1 (Sof top closed limit switch) Grounded
With the limit switch in the the position that it would be if the top was retracted:
S84/13s2 ( soft top opened limit switch) Grounded
S84/13s1 (Sof top closed limit switch) open

So all with this switch appears top be operating normally.

craiglunt

Just for the last word of the day ... I cannot for the life of me figure out what is going wrong, and it's turning into way too much of a time sink ( and super frustrating)- so this baby is off to the local INDIE to get star tested on Thursday. I'll update and let you know what the outcome is.

craiglunt

After taking a look at it - and running the Stars diagnostics - the only error code thrown seems to be "B1647 - Power Solen.Valve/Power Window Motor.", whic is sufficiently vague. Their are 4 power windows - all seem to be functioning normally - any ideas of where to trouble shoot from this point much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,
Craig

craiglunt

So in try to ascertain what the B1647 code actually means - I started looking at the Roll Bar solenoid/ valves the thought being the possibility that my inactive rollbar is effecting my top operation.

(The Roll Bar Limit switches seems to be in the right state - The roll bar retracted switch is closed to ground and the Roll bar extended switch is showing open.)

However - My Roll bar is currently lowered all the way - and won't raise. What I'm seeing when I manually activate the Roll Bar switch:

1) When pressed to lower the roll bar: Voltage is supplied to the Rod Side valve ( 12V - and when activated - the pawls move out of the way and the pump clearly runs) - however there is no movement to lower it as it is all the way down.
2) When pressed to raise the roll bar: Voltage is supplied to the Rod Side valve ( 12V - and when activated - the pawls move out of the way and the pump clearly runs) However, concurrently very low / no voltage ( .23V) is applied to the Piston side valve - and no movement occurs. Obviously lack of Voltage applied here is an issue.

I've chased the wiring from the N52 connector to the piston side connector to ensure this is not a wiring fault and all looks good. Any idea what might be preventing the control module from sending the right voltage to to Piston side valve?

As Always - Much thanks in advance for any response,

Thanks

Serndipity

craiglunt.....After you did the manual roof resynch procedure, when you the attempted power roof operation, after the windows retracted, nothing happens, except that your power roof switch blinks slowly.

Then you had your indie do a STAR scan for stored diagnostic trouble codes, only finding one (B1647 - Power Solen.Valve/Power Window Motor).

B1647 alone, is not helpful, as only refers to a larger group of specific DTC's, which would have additional digits (i.e. B1647 XX), where specific faults are recognized by the evaluation of a test current pulse from the controller module, to the various valve block solenoids and rear window motors. There would usually be additional DTCs stored, such as those within the B1650 group, that check the status of the various position/limit switches, for plausibility (e.g. actualizations correspond to the required controller sequence). The switches are only evaluated, based on a watch dog timer in the controller, that indicated that the maximum permissible time until limit switch should have been triggered, has been exceeded. From there, given the complexities and interdependencies of the power roof system, a good measure of additional troubleshooting is necessary, to identify the actual cause and repair.

As example, when roll bar can not be retracted via the dash RB switch (S83), the culprit could be:

Voltage supply to Power Soft Top Control Module (N52)
Defect at RB switch (S83)
Defect at RB "retracted" switch (S83/5)
Defect at the hydraulic pump assembly (A7/5)
RB valve block (Y57)
RB hydraulic cylinder
Fault at Power Soft Top Control Module (N52)

But the power top will not operate, after the windows lower, if controller thinks that the roof's rear bow (S84), compartment cover (A25) have not been properly locked, or if the roll bar is fully down (S83/5), which is why the position/limit switch actuations vs. stages of roof operation is valuable. Additionally, the actuations can be checked by unplugging the controller's harness and measuring the resistance.

As example, with the ignition off and a multi-meter connected between vehicle ground and pin 16, when the roll bar is completely retracted you should measure 0-5 ohms and when extended more than 20K ohms.

The electronics in MB are very sensitive to voltage and the power roof will only work when the supply voltage is between 11 - 14 volts.

The controller is fused in 3 places. Have you checked the condition of each fuse, including the lower spade terminals for corrosion (e.g. which would cause resistance to supplying voltage)? Also, since the controller supplies power to operate the rear window motors, I would also connect a voltmeter across the battery to see if the voltage drops under 11 volts while and shortly after the windows lower. Note: whenever the rear windows reach their up/down limits, the controller's power consumption increases considerably, as a result of lock-up.

When the the ignition switch is turned to position 2 (or after starting), the power roof controller performs a diagnostic test. The enclosed document explains the possible areas to further explore, depending on whether the power roof is being pressed or not.

I've also included the 'subsequent locking procedure' that MB built in to the controller, that will restore properly locking/unlocking. Note: It will only work when the system is otherwise in good working order and there is a temporary glitch with the locking/unlocking of the rear bow, compartment cover or roll bar operation.

craiglunt

Hi Serndipity,

Thanks Much for all the info.

I have a 2002 CLK430 W208 - One that has only 5 solenoids and where Switch A25s1 has been eliminated. Would you happen to have recent wiring diagrams or flow matrices that don't mention that switch? My concern here is that other changes were made I may not be aware of as well.
As far as the code- B1647 being pretty unspecific - I agree. I do happen to have the CST and RB electrical program that list the additional codes (B1647-10 through B1647-200, test scopes etc. that are great to give an idea of what to look for. However it too is a 5/99 version and mentions the A25s1. I've used it to determine all the other "Resistance" test scopes - and so far all looks within scope. Unfortunately I don't have access to a break out box to check live voltages ( They are suprisingly expensive for a passive device ).

However I still remain trying to figure out the 2 issues I seem to have:
1) the RB wont go up with manual activation ( although the pawls will pull back and the pump will run. It appears that it will activate the rod side, but not the piston side -( which means it will ONLY lower) - a check of the voltage at the piston side solenoid shows only .23 of a volt ( and since everything else seems to check out as far as the resistance for the manually operated SW83 and the grounds look good -my guess is that this might point to the N52 controller . I've checked all the wiring and the fuses as suggested. As a further test - I actually applied 12V to the piston side solenoid while pressing the S83 switch to the "extend" position - and the RB raised as it should. ( Removing the voltage reverted back to just the rod side being activated and the RB lowered again). I'm still at a point where I want to check further prior to replacing a controller.

2) I'm still in the position where I can open the roof lock, the windows lower, but then the bow lock doesn't release as I would expect ( and the pump doesn't run) - I hear a couple of pretty soft clicks from that area - but haven't has the opportunity for someone else to activate the op switch to get a closer "listen" ( the switch at that point blinks slowly). Interesting to note that after I do that - the RB switch wont operate the pump either until I switch the ignition off/on to reset)

Also - One of the comments you made in your last post puzzled me as well - you said " the power top will not operate, after the windows lower, if controller thinks that the roof's rear bow (S84), compartment cover (A25) have not been properly locked, or if the roll bar is fully down (S83/5)" My rollbar is obviously as far down as it can be - would this really effect operation? Since my "resistance" test were showing the Rear Bow and Cover properly locked - This was the reason I "jumped" the solenoid to raise the roll bar - it didn't see to make a difference.

Thanks

craiglunt

Problem Solved! Turns out my Main issue was that the N52 Controller was not sending the right voltage to the "piston side" solenoid on the roll bar.So if the roll bar didn't work ( it never would raise) then the top down routine just failed. After testing every switch and limit switch and confirming that other wise the hydraulics were working fine - it was the only thing I couldn't effectively test with without an overly expensive Break out box for the controller. Sourced a used controller on Ebay - and voila - everything is working as it should. I'm going to attach a troubleshooting file that I found on a Bulgarian Mercedes dealer site -it lists the star DTC codes and the testing methodology recommended to determine where the fault might be - I hope it can be of some use to someone out there who is in the same situation - ( and hopefully if you get your vehicle star tested - the diagnostic code returned is a little less vague that just "B1647" - You need the subcodes to really pinpoint the problem . ( So much for my local Indies testing capability) Obviously I couldn't do the voltage tests with out a breakout box - but the "resistance" tests mentioned in the attached troubleshooting guide with the module disconnected and the ignition off - were invaluable.

Again - thanks to Klaus at top Hydraulics for the rapid shipping of a refurbished bow lock - that was my initial issue - and the replacement works great.
Also Thanks to Serndipity for giving me as much information as he had and trying to point me in the right direction...

Serndipity

Congratulations on finding the problem.

adityaw

Thanks a lot for the responses all. Dont get me wrong - I will always love convertibles. But only hard top ones. Yes, my original post is mostly about security - the soft top being cut etc. What I did not mention is in addition to that, to me it also ruins the aesthetics of the car.....you look at a beautiful car, from the ground it is metal....and then as you go up you see.....fabric?????

I cannot deny how sexy convertibles look with the roof down. But with the roof up in a soft top convertible, it looks.....not good enough. The car does not look tough/aggressive due to the presence of fabric. Look at ferrari portofino. Look at 720s spider. Look at mx5 RF. They all look brilliant, why? Because of the metal body/roof....

Dino333

OK I have had the same conundrum and a different one. So here is my journey to the E Coupe- not sure of the 450 or the 53 but more on that later. But this is what these forums are for- to talk these things out LOL- But seriously, buying a car of this caliber is very serious business with some large cash laid out. I am just south of being a geezer and in my advancing age, I really want a convertible. And the BEST convertible is the SL- even though its not the best looking thing... - but becasue of the two seats only, the design, and the windscreen that is powered and in PERFECT placement- so at up to 70 MPH with windows up, top down, you can hear music and talk without serious wind buffeting. But I rejected the SL for a few other factors. And one of them is the E looks so damn cool- and will look great for many years to come IMO. I currently own an S550 coupe- maybe the best large coupe anywhere- 2015 model. Its great for cruising the boulevard- but not really for "spirited" brisk driving in the Texas Hill Country where I live. Its 4800+ lb. The airmatic does a GREAT job of making the car seem smaller than it is- its still too heavy and will churn tires at any elevated speed in the twistys. But I love the opulence and looks and comfortably powerful ride of my S Coupe. So to me the E series gives the "posh" luxury slow roll cruiser- but also does the Back roads at speed DECENTLY well for the times I go fast. And to me looks amazing inside and out while doing it. But I have two E series conundrums:
1> Like yours, the convertible vs the Coupe. Unlike you, I think the convertibles look just as cool as their hardtop counterparts- sometimes even better? How about a Designo off white kInda cream colored in some lights with a dark res or dark blue roof- EXquisite! Red with black roof- saw one the other day DAM nice. But to me, with the top DOWN and the wind deflector up- the car just doesn't look all that great- YES you can go without the wind deflector and just let the Aircap push the air and it helps- but with all windows down and wind screen down and no aircap, the car looks great- but unlike the SL that looks BETTER with the Windscreen up and it REALLY keeps wind out of the cabin becasue of the size. The E is not like that. So to my eye, the convertible loses its luster a little bit with top down and everything else "up" for wind deflection. But the coupe? Looks bad *** all the time. Has a sunroof, is a bit lighter and bit less $. ANd looks bad *** all the time. I already said that. I will be ordering mine in Selenite gray with AMG 20" fan wheels. But here to me is dilemma #2 and its a tough one.
2> THE SEAT COMFORT. The "standard" seats in the E53 AMG version are simply too hard. While I know you cant replicate the S550 seats (Well the SL can and was another reason I was looking to go that way) but I digress... While I know the S is best- the E is to me the other side of not comfortable. BUT the E450 has MUCH more comfy seats- but I want the Speed and looks of the E53 AMG. So The Designo seat option LOOKS to be "softer" than the standard AMG seats- but finding a dealer with one of those interiors in stock is kind of difficult. They are a $ 4200 option that not many will go for. And sitting in a seat for 5 minutes is rarely going to do any good. So I still havent resolved that - but am leaning 53 and the seat "upgrade". But whichever way you go, you will have a superior ride. I just think the coupe is a bit more superior than the cabriolet.