Actually, if there is a surplus of $2k on the insurance settlement, the insurance co overpaid by $3k as there is a $1k deductible. Technically, pacboy would have had to shell out an additional $1k to complete the repairs.

Now to explain the situation to pacboy about the insurance wanting to take his car. Say your car is worth $15k and the insurance has a ACV of $13k. I'm not sure what the % threshold is regarding totaling a car, but for this exercise, lets say 75%. So an insurance so will total a car once repairs hit $9500. I believe payment is based on a per incident basis.

If the insurance co. already paid $8k on this repair so far, any other costs over $1.5k will cause the car to be considered a total loss. However, if they paid $8k for your repair and everything was fine, I think there would be no problem with another accident in 30 days that would cost $5k to fix. The only problem is they may drop you from their insured ranks.

pacboy, please do all of us a favor since you are in college. Please take some writing classes so you can learn to write cogent arguments using punctuations and paragraphs. When you write everything in one long paragraph without breaks, capitalizations... it makes reading very difficult. Thanks.

 

sorry about the writing im just not supposed to be on anysites at work but our backend so i quickly type whatever i can and send it. For the record my body shop has not submited any claim to the insurance company at all the insurance company came and said this is what needs to be fixed not to the body shop so maybe thats why you think i did more wrong then just buying parts i understand now that because there is a problem with the car which needs further repairs.

The fact that i bought additional parts with the insurance money i did something wrong but my shop did not provide the insurance company with any fake claim for a fake amount in order so i can get parts i dont know if thats what i made it sound like or thats something that was assumed but the insurance company came to look at the car and they wrote up the estimate based on what they saw not the shop i only chose the shop because i knew he would give me a discount on the labor and not throw everything on to get the job done just wanted to clear that up

I get it now what your saying WPOZZZ, im just a little confused forget any of the mess im in for one second like you said car is worth 15k and insurance has ACV of 13k, and after 75% they consider the car totalled. If the repairs go past ACV isnt that not fair to a customer not just me to any customer for them say ok we attempted to fix your car for X amount of money we couldnt and now because it hits 9.5k were sorry car is totalled were taking it away its not like the money they paid for fixed my car that they decided to take it away its not like that 9.5 went to my pocket to pay the loan, but in a case where they the car is totalled they say here is your 9.5 and well take the car everybody is happy. Basically because they realized its gonna run them to much money people get screwed of giving up the cars for 3-4k because insurance company decides they no longer want to fix it, is that how it works to my understanding? but an accident in 30 days like you said they would pay for.

I always thought gap insurance is for new cars i wasnt aware that they offer it on used cars when i bought a brand new altima in 2008 they gave me paperwork for gap insurance but for this car no such thing. At the end of the day basically the shop said they will fix it if its their fault, im just not willing to loose my car for such a small amount of money not worth it i rather deny it and say i dont need your 4k. Thanks

 

I do not think you understand how an insurance claim works, The adjuster from the insurance company shows up at your preferred body shop, the adjuster from the insurance and your body shop look over the car, they agree on what repairs are needed, and they agree to do the work for a certain price, the insurance has a max fixed amount they will pay for certain things no matter what you body shop chooses to charge. If your body shop and insurance do not agree on terms, then the body shop is free to tell the consumer you have to pay any deficiency between what the insurance allowance is and what we charge for that job. That is no different than how medical insurance or any other insurance works. Then the consumer is free to have the repair done and pay the difference or goto a body shop who will do the work for the amount the insurance allows. Most body shops accept the insurance estimates in general as most jobs are insurance jobs anyways. Just like most doctors agree to insurance reimbursements because they do not want to loose a ton of potential customers.

How is that unfair? I bet money 99% of consumers would prefer to have their cars totaled over having a major accident show up on the carfax report for their car. You keep missing 1 point here, if you would not have created the mess you did and you handled this whole problem in the normal matter, you would be out no money, and you would be getting the the full car value minus your deductible. You would still be liable for any deficiency between that payment and you loan amount if you did not have gap insurance. The only reason you keep thinking or saying how is it fair they can take away your car for $3-4k is because we both know that any money you spent on parts you will not be getting back, and you said you paid the body shop $1k in labor meaning best case the most you can get back from the body shop if the car is declared totaled is $1k plus what ever the insurance companies gives you. If you would have let the body shop buy all the parts, and never took it upon yourself to "Save Money" and get free parts you would not be in this mess at all.

I doubt the insurance will not report the car as being totaled to your local DMV and the bank even if you tell them you do not want more money from them now if it is discovered the car is totaled according to the insurance company. Here is why the insurance will not do that, they will not want to insurance a car they consider totaled because chances are that car will end up costing them more money than the car is worth. If they failed to report it to DMV and Bank they are in effect committing a fraud against who ever else buys, or insurances that car and bank who legally owns the cars, as the bank does not want collateral that is worthless if you do not pay the loan and they have to reposes the car. So it is cheaper for them to total your car and cancel your current policy over not totaling the car and maybe being liable for another repair on the same car as the insurance has no way to verify that you will actual repair or replace the parts that are needed for a proper repair. If you do a substandard repair which ends up causing an accident they will not only be liable for your repairs but for whatever damage you do. That is reason when you get insurance, and you have a used car all insurance companies today check the car fax report and if a major accident is on your car fax report they require an inspection of the car before they will insurance it as they want to insurance cars that may have substandard repairs or known issues then be liable to repair them correctly in case of an accident.

 

mcdohl, just so I understand, if I were filing a claim where repairs were being made but at the end of those repairs it was determined more work was necessary, would the insurance company be allowed to deduct the money they already spent on repairs if they decide to total the car? I would think they would still have to pay market value regardless since it was their decision to attempt to repair the vehicle.

 

i gave the shop 4k in labor not 1k , all the numbers are getting confused here. But oh well i dont know what to say im sure 99% of customer would love to have it totalled not to have a messed up carfax but not at the expensive of getting 4k for a 15k had they declared my car total i wouldve been a happy customer to.

i understand everything you said and how insurance works and that i shouldnt have but my own parts to try to save like 2k but i still think theres some misscommunication here or maybe i wrote something wrong, when the insurance company declares the car total as far as i understand they take it away from you right?.. so i dont get it when you say if i had not bought any parts on my own and i let the shop handle it how would i get full value of my car minue deductible forgive my ignorance if i missed something im not familiar with the process basically what im trying to say how would it make a difference if the shop bought the parts instead of me and put the car together for me and the same problem arrised after car is fixed engine is leaking oil what would make the insurance company say ok well give you full value of the vechile because its to expensive to buy an engine instead of saying ok we paid to much for repairs so if the engine is broken well give you the remaining money up until ACV and take your car away the way they are saying it now. What im understanding is that i would get it back from the shop you mean the shop would be liable to return 5-7k whatever the amount may haveb been for the estimate to me from their pockets because the insurance decided they think its to much money for them to pay.

Dont think im ignorant or stupid but rather somebody that got more and more interested in this whole process and wants to learn more on the topic since you know so much about it so i would appreciate if you can further explain it to me. Thanks

 

Vmspionage, thats exactly my question but i wrote it up extremely long that prob confused you guys. thats what iwant to know regardless of what i did right or wrong lets say i havent dont it. Because the insurance company decided to pay for repairs and after it was repaired now there is more then needed can they just give you the difference and declare it total and take away just like vmspionage said it was their decision to attempt to fix it. Thats what upsetting me im sure nobody would want to have their car taken away because insurance attempted to fix it and then gave up and decided to give you the difference and take away your car turn around and sell it for more.

 

Yes they would. Its still 1 claim that has not been completed, closed - ref supplemental add on mentioned in this thread previously. See your own words above.


Frankly, IMHO, this thread has covered all the bases but for some unknown reason we still are dealing with entitlement syndrome of today's youth. Doesn't anybody learn to read and comprehend the written word anymore? What's with this constant me, me, me, me, whining attitude that is being displayed?

$0.02

 

[No see here is the point that both pacboy22 and you (Vmspionage)are missing, if the body shop makes a mistake(did not notice damage, forget to charge for some parts etc) in the original estimate and supplemental estimates before the actual repair is done, and it is later determined that because the repair is now more costly the body shop originally quoted because additional work is need then the body shop has to do the extra repair for free or refund you back your money as legally the body shop is liable for the extra cost and they can not hold your money and car hostage, and the body shop has 2 choices file a claim on their insurance and refund the customer their money in this case the insurance company or pacboy22 for the unnecessary repairs or do the additional repairs at their expense.

Problem is in this case, if I was the owner of the body shop I would simple refund pacboy22 the $1k he paid for the repair and allow the insurance company to total his car. That $1k amount is more than likely less than their deductible and the real cost to repair the current problem, and the choice is 100% the body shop. Pacboy22 did not buy parts from him so that is not his problem. pacboy22 would have no legal recourse at all against either the insurance company or body shop if they returned his parts to him, body shop paid him $1k he paid them and insurance paid the difference between KKB amount minus the amount already paid minus the deductible. If Pacboy22 would have bought all the parts from the body shop then the body shop would also be on the hook for returning the money for all the parts as they sold him parts which were not needed and that amount might weigh into weather it is cheaper to return the customer his money or do the repair for free. But then the choice would be between returning $9k to pacboy22 vs fixing the car. Like I said if I was the body I would simply return the $1k to pacboy22 and be over with it as that is more than likely the cheapest solution for the body shop.


If Pacboy22 would have bought all parts from the body shop, and paid did everything kosher he would be out no money at all if the same thing happened, either the body shop would return the money to pacboy22 that he paid them and between his deductible and whatever else the insurance gave him he would be in the same position as if the insurance totaled the car from day 1.

Pacboy22 problem all arises from the fact he decided to go buy parts himself which no one is going to give him refund on as pacboy22 assumed liability himself the second he took the insurance company money and bought them.

 

Pacboy22 go back and read your posts, You said you bought parts from $7k, paid $1k to body shop for labor and the reason you went to that body shop is because they gave you a deal on labor and you were able to get the shocks an brakes and rotors and sway bars and brake lines with the leftover money. You also stated you were able not to pay your deductible. Then you story changed to you paid $1-2k out of your pocket for all the parts and labor and now you story changed to you paid $4k in labor.

Your numbers do not added at all. I am lost on your number, Body shop has to return what ever you paid them for the insurance repair, I have no idea how they charged you, or what they charged you anymore as your story keeps changing. But whatever you spend on parts would be your problem and you more than likely will end up taking that loss.

 

ok i understand what your saying thanks, 4k was total labor because labor to fix the car and labor to install additional parts such as shocks and brakes and sways before i was reffering to labor for each seperate repairs anyways i gave you approxiamte numbers close to the exact figures just to get an idea of how they work and what amount has to be reached thats why i said 1-2k 2-3k 3-4k trust me i have no reason to lie to you or change my story to you its not like your paying for my car so i have no reason to lie about the amounts i think it was the first post that i said how much they gave me it was 7988 - 1000 deductible plus 1800 so it was about 8796 and everything else was approx numbers whatever it doesnt even matter at this point. Thanks for the help and all the time you took to explain the legal process i appreciate it and hope it works out for me. Thanks

 

You would only get the money back from the body shop for the labor that resulted from fixing the damage caused by the accident and so if the original estimate shows $2k labor charge which was reduced to $1k then at is all you would get from the body shop. The legal concept behind an estimate is so you can make an informed choice on weather or not to fix the car(or whatever item it is, be it a TV, get your teeth fixed etc) or know the price of whatever work you want done. If additional costs arise after the fact then body shop has no right to say sorry we made a mistake, your repairs are no longer $5k but really $15k which could be more than the value of the car. Otherwise every body shop would low ball their estimates just to get the job and stick the customers with a much higher bill and hold their cars hostage or keep it and resale it for a profit.

I am sure the installation charges for the extra work are on a separate invoice and those labor charges have nothing to do with the accident, you choose to do that on your own and I assume independently of your insurance claim as I am sure that was not included in your insurance claim. So 1 job has nothing to do with the other job at all. As long as those items were installed correctly I think the body shop could argue that you assumed liability in doing that work at the same time in an effort to save money, so in effect now that something went wrong you should also share liability on that as well.

 

I guess thats what ill hope for but i still have a chance though that my engine is not messed up according to the shop if its not messed up then it would be perfect i get to keep my car with a minor repair and a lesson taught for the future if it ever happens. Thanks Mcdohl and others who chimed in

 

IMHO the best thing for you to do would be to work with the adjuster to bring it just under the threshold to total the car. It will probably cost you some money to complete the repair, or get a shop to do the work for the budgeted amount from the insurance co., but you will still have a car and it will have a clean title.

 

Got it, thanks for clarifying.

It sounds to me like the only option if he were to continue with the claim would be to get a refund for the incomplete repairs, get all the parts back and return or sell them, get the remaining money from the insurance company, and take the rest as a loss. The other option would be to not take the payout and complete the rest of the repairs out of pocket.

I've never bought my own parts when filing an insurance claim but this thread made sure that I never will. Good luck Pac.

 

I do not think that is an option really as the insurance company and the bank might not accept that option for 2 reasons. If the damage exceeds the value of the car, no matter if you have insurance or not the DMV must be notified as the car would legally be considered a salvage vehicle. If you had no insurance at all it would be the body shop and/or owners responsibility to report the car as a salvage vehicle. The bank is not going to want to hold a lien on a salvage vehicle because in the event they have to repo that vehicle their collateral would be worthless. Also insurance companies do not sell collision insurance on salvage vehicle either.

 

Yea thats what im gonna do im gonna work with the adjuster that is gonna come hopefully in about two days when the car will be apart so they can determine if the seal needs to be replaced or if the hit really broke the block and then ill just talk to the adjuster and see like you see bring it up until the total amount and then pay the rest out of pocket that would be my best choice. Thanks Mcdohl and everybody else for clarifiying at least now i know how insurance companies work.

 

Get a lawyer. The insurance company owes you the cost of the car if they take it, not the cost that they put into it. It was there fault they didn't total it out.

GET A LAWYER.

 

Hmm, im confused because people are saying because its one claim not closed yet it doesnt matter that they didnt total it out and they can just take it. Thats what i was curious about i have a lawyer already thats taking care of the injury case for me and my girlfriend maybe i can talk to him about it i guess. Thanks

 

regardless of what the OP did, the fundamental issue to me (which really has nothing to do with him buying his own parts except that it put him in a position of little negotiation) is that his insurance is basically saying we paid for half the repairs, it didn't work out so NOW we're going to total your car, only give you back the difference and leave you with a half repaired vehicle. there's something fundamentally wrong about that becasue they have neither repaired the vheicle in full, or given the full totaled value - all becasue they (adjuster/body shop) missed something, not becasue of anything the OP did. what the op did complciates the issue, but to me is not the core issue here. It may be in their rights to do so, but from a consumer protection standpoint doesn't seem right. Insurance should either pay out the full totaled amount, or complete the repairs. And let's not kid ourselves, taking with the Op has said at face value, there's very little reason to think that him buying parts, or a bad installation of parts led to engine issues. It most likely is a result of the accident and it got missed by the adjuster/body shop which is the real issue in all this. It's also not like the insurance company is saying we're doing this becasue you bought your own parts - they're doing this becasue they don't want to get stuck with paying for the body shops mistakes. I agree with mr inkredibul, discuss this with a lawyer to get an opinion see what your options are. In an alternate sitatuion if the Op had done this by the book and the same thing happened (which it could still have), we would all be saying how f*cked up it is that his insurance is doing this.

 

Where did the insurance company tell the OP that? I bet you the insurance company said something a long the lines, if it is discovered that the body shop missed damage and that damage exceeds the the total value of the car the body shop is going to refund you the amount you already paid them and we will give you the difference between that amount and KKB value and we will sell the car for parts etc. If the OP had done things kosher from the beginning he would be in no different position at all if the insurance did what they are doing now vs totaling it at the beginning. The OP problems all steams from the fact he is doing the math and that means he will get whatever paid the body shop in labor on the repairs + what ever the insurance gives him but will be out whatever he paid for the parts and what labor he paid to have those extra items installed. And he would never have bought those other items and had them installed if he know the insurance company was going to total the car. And the insurance company based their decision on the body shop estimate. So the OP should really be mad at his body shop for either missing the extra damage, or not advising him of the risk he was taking by getting extra work done before the repair was done and what other risk he was taking by buying those parts if someone went wrong.


You keep missing the point, the insurance company is not trying to screw the OP at all. The OP screwed himself, if would have done everything kosher and the body shop missed damaged before starting the work and gave a wrong estimate the the body shop is going to have to return whatever money the OP paid, trust me either the insurance company will give that money to OP and then sue the body shop to collect it back, or the body shop on their own will refund that money. I have a felling the insurance adjuster at this point knows, the OP bought parts, and is more than likely telling the OP, here is what we are going to do, give you the difference between what we already paid and KKB on your car. You deal with body shop as that is your problem now because you choose to supply your own parts which means legally we can not collect the amount for the parts you bought, and because you had extra work done we have no idea what the labor charges were on the repairs vs that extra work so we don't want to get involved or subrogate that claim for you as you made a mess of it.

So the above means to OP that he is getting screwed and the insurance is stealing his car. Which in fact if he would not have made a mess of the whole thing and did everything kosher he would be getting the same amount of money irregardless if the insurance totaled the car on day 1 or now.

 

Well thats not entirely true because the insurance company didnt tell me anything along the lines that the shop will return anything to me, i understand that the body shop or the insurance company will not refund me on parts i bought on my own because thats on me. But all they said was we can only pay the amount left over until it hits blue book value nothing about the shop being responsible to give me back labor costs, what they did tell me though is that once everything is of the car like bumper and raidator supports basically everything off to be able to view the bare engine to see where the leak is coming from we will pay for the labor of taking apart the car and other repairs as long as we didnt pay for it the first estimate and the second supplement.

They said if and when the car is stripped and we see that its something the body shop missed and didnt install properly then they should be held liable for the repair and labor of taking apart the car and putting it back together and if they refuse then you can sue them, but nothing about if the engine is damaged the shop should give you back whatever money you spend on labor not including parts because i bought them myself and we will give you the difference. The one thing i am curious about is what the shop told me and the adjuster is that when the car was being put back together and the engine wasnt cracked from the outside or any physical damage that we can see, how can we tell theres a leak because in order for us to be able to actually start the car and run it for 1-2hrs we have to put the car together all the componets pumps panels radiator bumper and so on..and then we run the car.

After everythin was put back together the shop did run the car and then i came to pick it up i ran the car normally for a period of 24 hours with light throttle and a pretty heavy throttle nothing was wrong but the second day the belt snapped of and the belt tensioner got damaged still no oil leak drove it about 100 miles fine. After the belt was fixed and the tensioner replaced they let the car run idle for about 2 hours everything is fine and i took the car out everything was fine about an hour into driving with light throttle like i said normal, but heavy throttle is when the oil dripped out after the belt was repaired so its not like the shop didnt drive the car and didnt realize they drove it and i drove it and it was fine up until after the belt got repaired, The insurance company is trying to blame the shop saying they didnt do it properly and the shop is saying if we didnt do it properly why wouldnt the problem show up after we test drove it and the customer drove it for 24 hours normally.

Not counting the additional repairs that had nothing to do with the accident i just dont think that the shop would want to give me the amount back for labor because in their eyes they have done nothing wrong and they did what they were told in terms of repairing their not gonna want to shell out money out of their pocket because the insurance company doesnt want to pay. I guess well have to wait and see in about 2 days from now when the ajuster comes and sees the car fully stripped and makes up his decision on whether the engine is cracked or internally damaged or if i have a fighting chance what a bad luck i had with this car since i bought it 7 months ago from a member here,from the transmission needing to be rebuild just 4 months after i bought the car, all the money spent before on wheels and spoilers and stereo system , sensors, all my hard earned money that i put into it couldnt even enjoy anything. Thanks guys for the help gotta cross my fingers now

 

Do you have pics of the accident damage? $8k doesn't sound like a lot of damage to the car.

 

Do you understand what an estimate is? The way an insurance claims works is the body shop tells the insurance company what repairs are needed, then the insurance company agree or disagree on the repairs. If they agree on the repairs that are needed then they negotiate the price.

If the body shop missed damage which would have made the car not worthwhile repairing who fault do you think that is? Who do you think is liable for the body shop over looking damage? Do you think it is your fault, the insurance company fault or the body shop?

If it is determined that the body shop missed damage that could obviously been seen and found before the repair was done, the body shop is liable for their mistake. Legally when anyone does a repair to any item, and they give you estimate they can not charge you more than the estimate unless they notify of the increase and you agree to it. If the body shop missed some damage, and you car was not repaired correctly who fault is that? The body shop, your fault or insurance company? If you car was not fixed correctly does the body shop have a right to collect money for the repair?

 

Oh ok i wasnt going along with that idea i was going along with the idea that the insurance company telling the shop this is what you have to fix and this is how much were gonna give you to do it it anything else arises let us know well come look, thats what i was thinking i guess theres where my whole confusion is because i was wondering why would they pay for insurance mistakes, but its the other way around now i see. Thanks for clarifyinh

WPOZZZ - i had most the pics on my blackberry which i lost a few days ago and i might have somebackup pics somewhere if i can find it ill post it.

 

They kinda of do and don't maybe that is where you are confused, the way it works is you body shop writes up an estimate then the insurance adjuster comes and looks at your car and the estimate the body shop provides and then the insurance company determines if the estimate looks correct to them or not. For example lets say your body shop says your rear quarter panel needs to be replaced, the insurance company might determine the damage is not that bad to the rear quarter panel and it can be fixed and does not needed to be replaced. So the body shop agree's and correct the estimate to reflect repairing the rear quarter panel vs replacing it.

The insurance adjuster does not come to the body shop and look at the car and tell the body shop to what to do, the insurance company just over looks body shop estimate and at the car and then determines if it is a reasonable repair based on the damage or not. Once the insurance adjuster determines all the repairs on the estimate are reasonable they negotiate the price with the body shop and approve the work.

So if the body shop missed damage on the estimate's both original and supplementals before the work was started who fault do you think that would? The insurance company just goes off the body shop estimate and verify that everything on the body shop estimate is a required repair. If it is not on the estimate the insurance has no idea that your car had that damage unless the adjuster noticed it while inspecting your car other damage while verify the repairs on the estimate were needed. But either way it is the body shop responsibility to catch and provide a valid estimate for repairs needed to bering you car back to working order.

For example if insurance company choose to save money on the repair by trying to repair some damage parts and those repairs do not come out correctly even after the body shop warned that those parts needed to be replaced then it would be the insurance responsibility to pay for any additional repairs needed that arise from the insurance company trying to save money. In general the insurance companies do not tell body shop to repair items which the body shop states they need to be replaced unless it is very obvious that the body shop made a mistake and not only is the repair possible but more than likely will come out prefect. As the insurance companies are not stupid they are trying to get your car repaired for the least amount money without exposing them selfs to liability.