Improviz

working on a design for a competitor, and it is the latter I dispute. Porsche is not going to pay their Engineers to design cars for other companies when they've got cars of their own to do; Mercedes contracted Porsche out to do the E500, but that info wasn't released long after the fact as you're implying; it was in the car mags *at the time*. So, Porsche pays people's salaries to design competitors' cars? That would be the first time I've heard of such a thing in the industry without a subcontracting agreement of some sort.

I also fully understand the Engineering process; I am one.

BANSASN

New design trends............we come up with concept cars trying to break the old tradition of car design. However, changes are very difficult for the public to accept, even though, there are new design cars out there. However, statically the public refuse to buy new design cars internationally. The designers are driven by the demand that the public want, and if the public want "SUV's" we will meet there deman. Economic "Supply & Demand". This bring us back to improving the existing design. we are slowly trying to make the public understand these new rules in safety, new laws, and government regulation that we have to follow. This process takes time and it is up to the majority of the public not just the minority to over see some of the design out there. The car industry is the same as any political issue. For any practical car to be running on the highway it has to pass standard regulation set by the government. The designer have done there job to follow the government standard. If there is not any government standard you see much more new trend, new ideas, and new design. Believe me! I have seen my company and other company new design beyond your imagination. And yet these cars have been tested for safety, comfort, impact and stress analysis. Again the government are not ready to show the public the new trend and the new design. This bring to my point that no matter how safe of a vehicle that any car company could design for the public....ultimately the public need to be responsible when they are in any vehicle. In my opinion, it is not the car that kill it's the driver who has the control.


Improviz, As an engineer you should know that most of the information that you used within your company are classified information. The public could only get information that is signed and release from the executives from whatever the company. And sometime these information are not in full detail. For example, in engineering drawings. If you don't call out specific tolerance for any particular part, and you have the rest of the dimensions call out you can not make the part perfect according to standard tolerance. The public will not get these critical detail, but they will get a standard information about that particular design/engineer. Again car design company are very competive among each other. Believe it or not..............sometime we do work together. It's all about the market. Funny how you mention about Porsche engineer not working for other people, car company are a business. Porsche is the smallest car company in the world and yet they are very successful. The reason why they are very successful is because Porsche main focus is on a practical two seater sports car. Porsche do not have sedans, trucks, and station wagons. Why? Because they only focus on that particular market...and no other car company could achieve like them...because their car design are mostly driven by Engineering....not just by design... for this reason..Infiniti car are driven by design...that is why they hired Porsche to design and engineer this particular car....ONLY.. Now, to meet the market demand, Porsche had designed the new "SUV" of their own...the company is expecting to sell about 80,000 cars within 2003...if the market accepted the new "SUV" by Porsche...then the production will be double by next year...believe it or not...that is a lot of car for that small company....Of course they are not going to tell any competitors, article, journal, etc... that they are being paid by other company particular by Japanese car. These are an internal transaction between companies. Only people who works for that company are aware of these classified working relationship. My final thought........... mark my words all will be in good time my friend.

amgme

i saw a white c320 or c240 badged a c32amg the other day. it didn't even have an amg body kit or wheels. it was a bone stock non-sport package c class w/ those ugly 15" stock wheels. what are they thinking?

i believe they can do anything they want with their car but i think they just look dumb pretending.

karl k

Bansan -

Now that the cookie-cutter dashboards are history, the time is long overdue for the "car industry" - the manufactureres, to put ALL of their energy and resources into SAFETY.

Arguably, that means not to add more useless side curtain bags, but to engineer a strong and light vehicle with space age materials, that truly envelopes and protects its passengers in a safe cocoon.

I know that this might put many car "stylist" out of work, but it will save lives. You seem to be from the design school of favoring only surface design, rather than the WHOLE auto:

A vehicle that transports people and their goodies - safely.

What ever happened to Mies's motto: FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION? ...and after millions of crippled and dead people, please let's expand this classic motto for designers: Form follows function PLUS SAFETY!

If the car industry does not take the lead, government will lag - as government always does - behind safety by decades!

Therefore, it's the people and the press/media that have to take the lead to encourage the private sector to put safety on the front burner,..after more efficient power plans/engines, better mass transportation...and to put looks on the back burner.

These should be the new priorities for a slumping car industry. Looks - skin jobs - just do not cut it anymore.

:o

trock3155

When I was at home in miami I saw a clk 430 with the AMG badge. Nothing special, except instead of a 430 it read 43. So it was a clk 43 amg. At least the guy's got the right idea

BANSASN

Karl K,
In any private sector, Designer and Engineer alike worked along side of each other to provide the safe, stylist, luxury, and comfort car to the public. I myself is not only just a designer but I'm also an Engineer. Whenever I designed any product, I have to make sure that it tested in the R&D department. As much as the public would like their car to be safe like a "cocoon" when driving, the designer/engineer have used the best resources in term of materials and the latest technology available to provide the most safe airbags to protect the passenger inside. This is not to say that car industry does not make mistake and no car industry wants to have a bad name for themself. The car industry/private sector have done there job by using the latest and greatest material and technology available for designers/engineers to produce a safer car. What more can the private sector provide for the public? Again.....it all comes down to supply and demand. It is the responsibility of the public to demand or to protest if the car company/government are not meeting their expectation. It seems that majority of the public have approve the safety devices such as airbags, ESP, protective role bar in the doors, and etc. in these new age of car safety. Again there is alway room for improvement. Mies Van Der Rohe is only an architect and furniture designer, non of his designs are delt with dynamic motion physic.. Mies motto: "Form Follows Function" works great for a stationary architectural structures, however, in the car industry we are dealing with moving object. Car design involved everything. Moving object deal with weight ratios, dynamic, velocity, inertia, vectors, streamlines, freestream, coeficient (cd), coeficient drag, friction, heat, stress, G-force, and etc. It is going to be hard for you to believe that car designing is the most difficult of any kind to design. If you think that space shuttle, airplanes, boat, and etc. are more difficult to design than car you are wrong. This bring us back to the question of designing a Safe car for the occupants...you probably know the answer by now.. that in the car industry not only involve"FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION" but function must follow form in order to operate dynamically for safety. :o :o :o

karl k

Mies in motion is what has not been taught in many Industrial Design classes.

While not specifically teaching Newtonian physics/laws of motion, it might be beneficial to detail the principles of INERTIA in the education of an industrial designer, in order to manufacture a safer product/vehicle for the consumer and protect the driver/passengers in a more effective way, rather then rely on DOT and its archaic crash test as an industry standard.

If car manufacturers are truly concerned about safety, why are all vehicles of the FUTURE - at the world's premier Automobile Expositions, put all of the emphasis on space age looks - lots of glass and sizzle - and never, never on safety?

Those futuristic models/renderings of vehicles, gliding through a seemingly gravity-free space environment, are an insult to the driving public.

The concerned puplic needs the support of the fourth estate - the press/media - to put the sizzle on safety, because of the governments notorious lag time in updating safety standards that are meaningful and the car industry's priority concern re quarterly profits.

BANSASN

Karla K
Again, Mies Van Der Rohe is an architecture and furniture designer. There is no such thing as Mies Law in motion. He does not dealt much with physic, mechanic, mathematic, or the law of motion in his designs. Therefore, Mies in motion will not been taught in Industrial Design or Transporation Design programs.

Industrial design are just designer of products, they do not have the technical skills to design transportation vehicles. Inertia to most industrial designer is............ "what the heck is that!" to a transportation designers inertia is the tendency of an objects to resist any attempt to change its velocity. Let me explain a better way, take for an example You see a park train on the trail and there was another train running with a high intertia speed, without act of force the park train not moving react with the same amount of engery of inertia to the moving train. In this case, the park train could react with a negative force if the park train does not have bigger mass and weight ratio to stop it, the moving train will crash through the park train with an excessive speed. That is the definition of inertia at work for a transportation designer. I hope this is clear enough.

Safety is the first priority for the car industry. I do not understand why you think that we car designers/engineers don't care about the public life and safety. Designers/engineers the best safety features for all cars with the best materials and technology, and yet sometimes companies lacked their effort in these area because of whatever their issues at the time. However, I would suggest that if you have too much money in your account you might want to send them a penny or two for these Safety features, just kidding..hehehehe.. Are you feeling unsafe with your car? If you are I also suggest you to go get yourself a mini-tank armour car.But hey you're driving one of the best build, engineer, designed car a money can buy.

I can see that you have some difficulty in understanding the purpose of entertainment futuristic cars and how they really work in this field. First of all, the futuristic car that you have seen in many auto shows are just entertainment car that the car designers/engineers want the public to see. Many futuristic cars are just ideal shapes and sizes of space age look, lots of glass and slizzle car are just creativity and expression of the car designers/engineers. Furthermore, these entertainment cars are just tools to start out and keep the public more aware of what is coming in the future. The public could definitely demand more for their car from the car industry when they go and purchase a new car. The public could specially order what they want in their car.
Second, Safely is not a factor in entertainment car. The designer/engineer are constraint in a box when come to designing actual under standard regulation. Concept car are a chance for the designers/engineers to think outside of the box. Most public do not want to drive anything out of the norm. They want something different, however, still maintain the same concept of how their car should function and drive.
Third, entertainment car are a dreamer car. They don't actually pass any standard regulations and that is why there is "never, never on safely" for futuristic cars. But if we were in the perfect world, everything is perfect with no accidents, perfect wealther, perfect roads, perfect drivers, and perfect everything then concept car are the perfect way to go. In reality, we do not live in a perfect world. There are mistake from the manfactures, bad drivers, and so on.


Mies law in motion

BANSASN

oops......sorry I missed spelled your name. Karl

tango

why do you guys even bother applying to the 'gentle'man? u are gettin nothing accomplished here the skull is just too old and thick

AolHoward

EXACTLY !! WHO CARES !!

enjoy --->>


320 with 430 & amg emblem ?? hahaha .... just kidding

BANSASN

NICE PIC! AOL.

The Emblem add some esthetic to the rear. VERY COOL

Chappy

Sweet AMG rims and bodywork

Did you get the AMG Xenons too? :p j/k

.....nice W208!

V8 forever

What about K-Mart double exhaust tips to make the 55 look complete ?

Stefan

karl k

BANSASN -

The implication of your statement is, that the car mfrs. are pulling the wool over the public's eyes, when presenting "future automobile concepts" as "entertainment"?

Perhaps, that is why the public can not distinguish between reality and fiction...?

A stylist working seamlessly alongside the engineer is also fiction. In an ideal world, that is the way it should be, but in reality, styling and appearance - often useles stylistic mannerisms - prevail in the final product's appearance. The degree of co-operation between styling and engineering departments varies of course from mfr. to mfr.

Re Mies, I am quite aware of his BAUHAUS influence and impact in the education of industrial designers.

All of the pioneers of transportation design were leading INDUSTRIAL DESIGNERS.

Perhaps the most famous was Raymond Lowey, with pioneering designs in public transportation, - from bullet trains to SUV-type vehicles. His last pioneering automobile was the AVANTI, - decades ahead of all the dangerous cookie-cutter, extruded-like looking obsolete products, cranked out by Detroit styling labs., followed by the ANNUAL major model/styling changes, - year after year after...

If you just want to give the public what the public wants, status quo would be the way to go, and mediocrity would be the norm/standard.

:o

Chappy

Gotta love it.....


http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...threadid=84068

:p :p :p

BANSASN

Karl K,

Automobile shows are way to get the public to be judges, audiences, and/or supporters of the designer/engineer's idea. In Design Trends mazagine, designers use the public's idea "outcry" to make a better car. Take for example, the public wanted extra cup holders to wider seats, the manufacturers, designer, and engineers are willing and able to listen to the public need. From that "outcry" cup holder to wider seats became a trend within the car manufacture.

Another example, is the public demanding for more seating room in a sport utility vehicles, so designer/engineers came up with the third row. This idea was applied to GMC Terracross concept car which was design by the influenced of the public.

The biggest trend that the public want right now is the design called the "Crossover". This is where Designer/Engineers taking cars an trucks and blending them together-so the public have the advantages of both vehicles rolled up into one. I hope these examples help you to broaden your horizon regarding automobile car show ....."futurist concept car as entertainment car"..

The public are very smart, know the trends, and well aware of what is being present to them. The public know the different between Reality and Fiction. It would simply be an insult to the public if they were told of what is REALITY AND FICTION. Again, the concept of "futuristic concept car as entertainment car" during auto shows are SIMPLY ways to get ideas from the public and to show the public what/how THEIR input/ideas have influenced designer/engineers in manufacturing future trends of transportation vehicles.

Today, every company wants to cut cost, for that reason, designer/engineers work alongside of each to produce the most effective car with the best available materials and technology for the public. We are no longer living in the prehistoric age in designing cars where Designer/Engineers "headbutting" each other. If this was the case, most companies would be in trouble. Like every business, in order to survive Engineer/Designers have to worker together as a team, i.e. SAFETY.

I did not recall discussing the history of Mies influences to the Bahaus period. I 'm sure that you're aware that there are others influences by different designer/engineers besides Mies in the fields of industrial designs. For example, Walter Gropius, Helmut Jahn, and etc.....

I do agree with you that Raymond Lowey is a well known and one of the well respected industrial/transportation designer.

However, not ALL pioneer INDUSTRIAL DESIGNERS are leading transportation designers. Take for example, Walter Dorwin Teague, Richard Sapper, Henry Dregfuss, etc. They are well know industrial designers who have not designed transportation vehicles.

Furthermore, there are great pioneer transportation designers who were not driven by INDUSTIRAL DESIGN. Take for example, Marcello Gardianie, Guigaro Dias, and the list goes on.

Mediocrity is not a term we designers/engineers use when come to designing and engineering transportation design. Designer/Engineer demand the best of their own creativity, potentials, and imagination to reach far above and beyond the norm. Every designer/engineers missions in designing or engineering their ideas are to Break the "norm/standard".
:o

Ahmed

Its a funny stuation! People asked me why my CLK looked different from the other ones. I had to repeat that it was an AMG kit from the factory. So, I guess to save myself the hassle, I stuck an AMG badge on it. Then I was told that AMG badges only came on 55's and that my car didnt warrant an AMG badge. So I stuck a 55 badge on it. Then they told me that i'm a fake cause the car isnt an AMG! So I removed it all. Then they said that I was ashamed to badge it cause it probably was a CLK200. So I rebadged it CLK320 again. Now, I GET HASSLED ON WHY THE CAR LOOKS DIFFERENT THAN MOST CLK's ON THE ROAD!!!!

YOU CANT WIN.

The moral of the story should be... WHO CARES!! its my car, i paid for it, i like it the way i want it.. I WILL DO WHATEVER I WANT!!

FAIR?

Improviz

:p


:p

V8 forever

You already did !

And thats the result :

If I only knew how to help You

Stefan

karl k

...oops -- it's Henry Dreyfuss.

His major pioneering effort and contribution to design was in Human Factors Engineering.

Henry Dreyfuss and Associates developed many charts/studies re human dims/percentiles, which contributed immeasurably to better ergonomics in transportation, product and package design, the major fields of the industrial designer.

Pioneers of this caliber are jet to be born...

Bansan, I enjoyed the discussion on this topic; however it's beyond the scope of this forum and foreign to most MBworld members.

Best wishes and lots of success in your field of expertize.

Karl

BANSASN

got carried away with Dreyfuss......

Thanks Karl, I too enjoyed our discussion. I learned alot from your perspective and I applaud your questions. Your a smart guy and I like discussing with smart people. GREAT DISCUSSION! Best wishes and alot of success to you to.

BANSASN

FrankW

For those that said MB with sport pkg doesn't come with the AMG badge. LOOK HERE http://www.mercedes-benz.com/e/cars/...sportpaket.htm


Ok, maybe not for the north america market, but everywhere else in the world has'em.

FInality

Thank you Frank!


Wheres that owned picture when you need it :p

RJC

It figures only the American market doesn't get the AMG badge,probably something to be said about that
Anyway the E320 in the picture has AMG wheels and AMG ground effects...it should have an AMG badge