Jim Brady

You might want to check out the May EVO magazine where a ML63 turned in faster laps than an Elise. And it wasn't at the Ring.

Alan Smithee

A true "rival" to the M3 would take significant market share, which means competitive in performance and price...the CLK63 BS was never intended to be that car, nor do I foresee MB/AMG trying to compete in that niche...

Alan Smithee

Surely your point isn't that the ML63 handles better than an Elise...the 'ring is obviously not the only track that favors horsepower.

AMG_55

that was a 111s or whatever its called, 0-60 >6 sec.no **** its gonna lose
111r wouldve been a different story, not taking anything away from the ml

AMG_55

that was my whole point.... so we agree on something




if it was closer to the m3 in price/quantity, it wouldve been the best competitor to the m3 so far

yes?

ShelleE55

No disrepect but the fact that you are mimimizing the importance of this type of suspension for a car you are going to track kinda points out why you can not understand ALL the reasons why this car is so unique.

Alan Smithee

Yes, if it was ~3,600lbs with a manual transmission and rear seat, priced at ~$60k, and had a sales volume of 15,000 per year.

As I said above, the CLK63 BS was never intended to be that car, nor do I foresee MB/AMG trying to compete in that niche.

Bones

BMW's answer to the CLK 63 Black will be a M6 CSL. It will be shown at the Frankfurt Auto Show later this year. Horespower wil be 550, more carbon fiber for weight savings, and the debut of BMW's new dual clutch system.

Cheers!!

AMG_55

i do know how important adjustable suspension is for real track cars, but lets be honest, how many of these will actually be at tracks on a regular basis?
no 4000lb car can be a real track car, youd go through brakes and tires at the same rate you use gas

gt3 has adjustable suspension, its 106K$, a much more focused car and on any track where handling, agility>power the clk wont see which way it went.

AMG_55

so youre saying add more things to the car (rear seat), drop the price and the weight and itll be a competitor to the m3. (transmission point isnt valid b/c the m3 will be offered with a dsg type system)

so what your saying is that its an over weight, over priced (BUT EXCLUSIVE ) mb "answer" to the m3

so you can get all the clk offers, a rear seat and a choice of manual transmission for about 50k less




now im totally lost


isnt that what i was saying in the first place?

ShelleE55

First, you must admit most GT3's are not going out the door at $106k it is more like $130k-150k if not more. Also the curb weight once configured with options is mostly likely going to be more like 3200 or more. I think you are right about most of these not being taken to the track which I think is a shame. This is what makes this car so special to the MB customer base. A car you can track and have as a daily driver. I only have a few more track days on my E55 with out having to do some work. My goal was to have a track car and a daily driver, two cars I am easily in the $135k price range. The GT3 is not a daily driver if you cover any regular amount of miles. Also MB had to look at it's customer base and if they had made this car with out all the creature comforts then it would not appeal as much to a "MB buyer". The exclusivity is not the main reason for the price point there was a lot of rework done to the CLK to make it a Black Series and I wish MB would have put more focus on that when they released this car. If you remember the AMG test drive on Speed, the car that Tommy is riding in at the end of the show is CLK 63 Black series.

I find it hard to compare to any other vehicle, because the other mfg have not set out to do what MB has done and that is to make it a trackable car as well as an every day driver with all the features that MB owners want (which is why it is so heavy). This car was not designed to convert M series or P car owners but to satisfy a niche in its existing customer base hence the limited production. Which they still have to determine if this make sense and if they will do it again. Most P and M car owners do not care about this. I think that is why those who get it take issue with your comparisons not necessarily because you are wrong, but just that it can't really be compared

Jim Brady

Shelle55
Very succinctly stated.
I passed on a GT3 which would have MSRP of 134K. I doubt any M6 Cls will make it to the US. There just isn't any comparison car that you can drive every day in traffic period. This car laid down a 7:45 at the Ring with an automatic! Scoreboard

AMG_55

yes, i agree, they are not 106k, thats the baser price. but from what i know; the bs base price is 135k, w/o options. so lets say they are the same exact price, which car is more suited to tracking and the occasional daily driving. lets be real, neither of these are going to be anyones daily drivers, the gt3 has a better chance of being a better driver b/c i dont think a person who can only buy one car will for a clk bs, however, there are a few daily driven gt3's, even a few 996 daily driven gt3's which are much more hardcore than the 997. the weight issue isnt really how much it weighs, its how much it weighs compared to the base mode; how much effort did they REALLY put inot the car, anyone can add adjustable suspension etc... its adding the stuff and keeping the weight down, thats the true mark of a "special" car. z06, gt3, m3 csl, 360 cs, gallardo superglegerra.....

when your special car weighs as much as your conv.'s and sedan's then obviously you didnt make it "specialized" enough.


thats what i was saying, if the price was lower, more "younger-more likely to track" people could afford it or would be willing to buy it. even if i had 140k to spend on a car, that would not be on my list, for 90, maybe. i dont get why you dont consider a gt3 a daily driver? it has EVERYTHING the clk does if optioned properly. they only slight hindrance is the ride height, but the lower lip can be removed and is only $100 if you do crack it. my car has everything my clk did and its still 600lbs lighter

thats what i dont understand
what rework was done?
from what i know its just a widebody clk63 coupe. all the "extra" cooling etc.. should be a given in ANY AMG (clk 63 conv. in this case) just like they come stock on m and rs cars. maybe then i wouldnt have blown the diff on my clk after a 15min canyon run. the only difference is widebody and suspension. they, unlike m on the new m3, did not go throught the trouble of moving the engine further back to improve balance or anything of the sort.




i do agree with some of your points

but then again, why the hell would anyone buy an auto track car

and why cant the gt3 be daily driven?
i think it can, its been written numerous times in various mags that it can and there are people driving them as daily drivers

magwheel

(1) Personally, I think that a person who buys a $100K or more sports car would more than likely have another 'more practical' normal car for use in day to day driving needs.

(2) A few paragraphs from a magazine/web article:

Visually, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series clearly shows its descent from the Official F1™ Safety Car: its striking front apron with large cooling intakes, flared wheel arches, diffusor-type rear apron and carbon-fiber airflow breakaway edge, all demonstrate the car’s sporting and pur sang pedigree.

Mercedes-AMG engineers achieved the increase in power to 373 kW/507 hp by completely redesigning the intake and exhaust systems. The high-revving, naturally-aspirated AMG engine, with its 6208 cc displacement, gets its fresh air via larger-dimensioned intake ducts. The new AMG sports exhaust system with full-length twin pipes stands out with its unmistakable, pleasant AMG V8 sound.

Power is transmitted through the AMG SPEEDSHIFT 7G-TRONIC. Compared to the standard CLK 63 AMG, the rear-axle ratio of the pur sang special series has been made about six percent shorter – to confer even more agility in acceleration in all speed ranges. For maximum sporting dynamics, the transmission has only the “M” and “S” driving programs; the comfort-oriented “C” is deleted. The driver can switch between the seven gears by using the AMG aluminum shift paddles on the steering wheel, while an indicator in the instrument cluster shows the gear selected at any given time.

The engine oil cooler is located in the right wheel arch. The cooling measures are complemented by optimized air ducts with lateral openings in real carbon in front of the front wheels. The front fenders are made of high-strength and yet lightweight carbon-fiber composite material.

Like its counterpart in the Formula One World Championship, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series also has a newly developed and quite special AMG sports suspension. The adjustable threaded suspension guarantees optimum road contact and maximum precision. For competitive driving, the driver can create his personal suspension setup: not only the level, but also the compression and rebound stages of the shock absorbers, front-axle track and camber, and rear-axle track are adjustable.

Despite its raceworthy handling, the CLK 63 AMG Black Series retains those typical qualities that distinguish a true Mercedes-Benz: everyday practicality, longevity, safety and quality. Following in the path of the SLK 55 AMG Black Series, the new CLK 63 AMG Black Series was developed in the AMG PERFORMANCE STUDIO opened in 2006. The first units of the unlimited AMG special series will be delivered to customers starting in June.
(There was probably 60% more to this article but I didn't want to over do it here)

(3) How about the possibility of sure shifts resulting in more track consistency?

(4) I had a new 2003 GT2 that I had no problem driving to work and other ventures anytime I wanted with no problems. Now have a 2007 GT3RS and if it wasn't for the fact that I'm lucky enough to own a few other cars, I would be more than happy to drive it numerous times a week with pleasure...... this I agree with you! Magwheel

Jim Brady

Alan,
You might want to read the comparison before you make the assumption.
Bedford Autodrome's West Circuit is hardly the "Ring" at 1.8 miles. Keep in mind the Brits idolize anything made on their turf. Sharp turn in and poise was easily overcome by brut power and engineering. True it wasn't the top of the line Elise but it still had all the handling prowess of the bigger brother.
Was it an absurd comparison, only if you were a sports car and had a slower lap time than an SUV.

Jim Brady

AMG 55,

Fifty more post and you'll have 4000:eek I have 4000 +laps at Willow Springs raceway so we almost have something in common.
I plan on driving my CLK 63 BS almost everyday and on weekends at track events. You have no clue on the target market for this car so don't make the assumptions. You are obviously not the target market, so go get a GT3 and have fun polishing it in the garage because you don't seem the type who'd dare get a paint chip.

AMG_55

my sig on mymbonline read:
rock chips & scratches=battle scars & war wounds
&
07 997S 6spd-current car (all go, f*** show)

you have no clue about who iam so dont make the assumptions. i have 40,000mi in the canyons of la, whats your point?

anyone can go fast on the track, thats what they are for

someone once said "i like how you painted you wheels gunmetal color"
i replied: "thats brake dust"
as long as my car is 100% mechanically and the interior is clean i can care less what it looks like on the outside

AMG_55

^^^^^

my car has about 250 mi on here, just got it, i was taking it easy

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...665515&q=piuma

AMG_55

i know all the changes you list, my whole point is that most of them, all the mechanical ones, infact, should already come stock on all AMG cars, like they do on m cars and rs cars. the coolers, ducts etc... just the suspension and body (widebody and cf parts) are special. imo

you own a gt3 rs
you know how different it is from a regular 997 and even a gt3, its an entirely different body shell, the fuel tank is moved etc.... there are many weight saving measures.....

there are no such "extreme" steps taken in converting a regular clk into a black series, thats my whole point. they have to charge that much for it becuase the regular clk63 is alredy over priced, thats the only logical explanation i guess.

it sure looks sick as **** though , congrats, looks amazing in white w/ the contrasting carbon fiber

AMG_55

one more thing, my assuming friend

my daily driven 997S (10,000 mi in 5 months or so) is running COMPLETELY unmuffled for weight saving reasons, although the music it sings is beautiful and is definitely a bonus

here is what it sounds like

http://mymbonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1656

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPKeyOQvAO4

goodnight

Schiznick

Children, I blame the parents......

Some day he will learn if he is not at the bottom of a ditch.

Schiz

Jim Brady

"anyone can go fast on the track, thats what they are for"
You just proved my point which was made by anology.

I don't know you and if your driving like you say through the caynons, I probably won't get an opportunity.

neilbo75

[QUOTE=AMG_55;2227500]why is the clk black series so expensive?

basically mb built a real rival to the m3 and audi rs4 (this time). it has NOTHING extraordinary on it, cf interior, the others have (option), widebody... check, better handling than the regular models..check, i believe none of them "improve" on the weight of the regular model, the transmission is regular 5spd auto with quicker shifts, there is nothing special about it, you can effectively take a clk63coupe (or even vert w/ a hardtop) and build yourself a clk63 black. i think they are just milking the clk dtm for what its worth, that car was a real "specialty car". the only thing that sets the BS ( ) apart from the others is price and a few cf exterior bits, the others go through all the same processes in becomeming "specialty" cars of their respectable makers.
before you guys say power, m6 (has a cf roof too and less $)


Building one of these babies in the backyard would be easier said than done. To start, those are nine inch rims up front. Impossilbe to just bolt that on. Once you start rebuilding the fenders you quickly get into styling and quality issues. The suspension is all different as well. Yes, you could do the coil-overs yourself, but doing it right is neither cheap nor easy. AMG has also provided auxilliary coolers for, IIRC, the engine and power steering oil. And let's not forget true forged wheels all around. That alone justfies a healthy bump. Uprated brakes are also an expensive mod for the DIYer.

The price for all this is high, but that's because the price for a base CLK63 is already high compared to its competitors. The base car gives you a SOTA engine and a seven (not 5) speed transmisison. But no manual shifter option and less power per ton than, say, a Z06 means that that Black Clack is going to be a hard sell. The graphite bits are pure art. But time will tell if they can even move 350 of them, despite the pent up demand created by not importing the regular 63 coupe. Aside from the price, too many people like you just don't understand this car.

AMG_55

learn what?

we were talking about a car, then someone has to go and mention how many laps they have around a track, like that makes a difference to anything we're talking about. i understand though, when people run out of things to say, they usually change the subject and make it personal. ive seen it before anf im sure this aint the last im gonna see it

AMG_55

thats what makes it fun

you **** up you die

on a track, you **** up and more than likely the worst case is you kiss the barriers. where is the fun in that.

btw,

it was you who changed the subject to something that has nothing to do with my original question/this topic