Jim Brady

Since most of the enthusiast intelligentsia hang out on this board in my opinion, I thought I'd seek the infinite wisdom of the following delema:

I've been looking for another long term car with forced induction (not selling the BS) and thought that the Ford GT might be a fun project. I've not been able to pull the trigger on the right one yet dispite several offers.

Today my dealer called and asked me if I'd be interested in an 05 SLR silver/red w 32k miles at $140k! MSRP was $465k. Assuming that the car checks out, it meets my criteria of forced induction, low production numbers, and able to easily mod to huge hp. It's in the same price range of the FGT. Thoughts?

alqamzi

Slr is a very unique car and a very nice car but the mileage of this one is very high for this kind of car. Just my 2 cents

DFW01E55

The huge negative to the SLR for me is the appearance. I really found it to be ugly when I first saw it in the showroom. My thoughts never changed. Speed, engineering, build quality, safety, exclusivity (<3,500) and weight (heavier) go in the plus column for the SLR. Ride quality on the street probably goes to the SLR too but not having ridden in one, I'm not sure.

Looks, value, long term tuner support, weight (lighter) and road track handling go to the Ford. They're still right around sticker price and with a few mods you can easily put 750+ to the ground and the mid engine will be really helpful in weight distribution.

My money would go to the Ford, mods are much lower cost and yield excellent results. And it looks like a sports car.
YMMV!

JDB

Jim,

I don't know if maintenance costs are of any concern, but I have heard of some astronomical figures for brake replacement. I would want to make sure I had checked out what deferred maintenance might be waiting to rear its ugly head.

JDB

SMP

I'm no expert on both cars but personally would take a Ford GT over the SLR. And I do LOVE German cars . I was never a fan of the SLR's styling but like the way the GT looks. The GT is also the more uncompromising of the two which I happen to prefer and would be more of a car for the track. The motor in the GT comes very de-tuned from the factory and is pretty much bullet proof and won't give you problems even when you start modifying it to a greater output. With it's mid-engine layout and low center of gravity it should be better at the track as well. Like with Porsche's, there is also an array of aftermarket parts available which is always a good thing.

The way I look at it, even that you can buy the SLR for a fraction of the original MSRP, it's still based on the 465K to maintain it. Not only are you going to pay MBZ tax, but McLaren's on top of it. The GT, being a Ford, and I don't mean it in a bad way, is going to be more affordable in the long run. As for holding the value long term, and that's not just my opinion as the market reflects it, will also go to the GT.

If it was me, I'd rather spend a few dollars more on a GT and get what I really wanted. I know the SLR sounds tempting for that price, but I think long term you'll be more happy with the GT which is the car that you wanted all along.

Jim Brady

Dennis, thanks thats the first item I negotiated, brakes are 25k! Car would see less than 3000 miles a year.

Havoc

Damn!! An 05 SLR silver/red w 32k miles at $140k!
Now that's a steal. The cheapest I could find was around $220K.

Yeah, maintenance costs will be ridiculous, but since you would only clock on 3K miles a year I would jump all over this. The McLaren is in a whole different prestigious league than the Ford will ever be. If you’re only looking at performance numbers, then go with the GT, but if your long term project car with forced induction should also include top status, then go with the SLR for the total package.

sprins

I like your thinking. If the maintenance costs aren't an issue I'd say: go for it!

The sheer brutality of the SLR makes it a really fun car IMO. More fun than the SLS as that seems to be a bit more civilized. And as far as looks, that's personal. I'd prefer the roadster SLR, but that's much more expensive. Anyway, the SLR is a brutal looking car to me.

MACHC5

Jim,
For a forced induction vehicle at around $115,000. with current discounts....

That comes with 638HP stock, weights 3300 lbs, has carbon brakes, dry sump oiling system and a 5-yr 100,000 mile warranty.

And this same vehicle with a pulley change and an ECU reflash you'd be north of 700HP with little cost.

What vehicle am I making reference to? The 2010 Corvette ZR1

http://vettetube.com/view_video.php?...a9076e44fcfd77

I was today at the Wixom, MI engine assembly plant and they said there is an option for $6000 to come to the plant and build your own engine. They also said they used AMG as the model for their One Man One Engine Wixom facility.

Jim
MachC5

ATL_MB

MACH makes a good point - but exclusivity would certainly be lacking vs. SLR or GT. And the whole Corvette demographic scares me a little (my father in law has a Vette - automatic, of course).

I would worry more about really low mileage cars than one that has been driven. 32k miles in 5 years (assuming it sold quickly - a big assumption) would actually be right in the sweet spot for me. Not a DD, but has still seen regular use. Cars need to be driven - there are GT3's leaking oil all over America b/c their douchebag owners are afraid to drive them. A 5 year old car with 3,000 miles on it could have serious issues that have not been identified yet, much less sorted out (to say nothing of the lack of engine oiling, etc. as it sits for months on end) - but 32k miles means it was enjoyed, has been tested and sorted and has really just been broken in. Assuming Paris Hilton wasn't the previous owner (ouch - that demographic comment comes back at me.)

JamE55

If your project involves modifying the engine for more juice between the two cars you stated i'd go with the Ford GT. Only because you can get more power with that than the SLR.

I've seen Ford GT's produce anywhere from 800rwhp to 1300whp maybe more. I doubt if you'll see these type of figures on the SLR.

UR or Heff has custom kits for this car.

jrcart

If it were my money I would spend an additional $45k and grab a brand new SLS and make it a tt, it's better looking than an SLR (IMO), more nimble, better brakes, lighter, dry sumped and you should see how much room is under the engine, for those of you that have not seen one in person it looks like a 70's muscle car under the hood, I can literally crawl into the engine compartment with room to spare. If there was one car meant to have two big turbos added to it it's this one. Plus some of the internals are shared with other 63's so that means spare parts will be less costly and more readily available compared with the very limited production SLR motors. That being said the Ford GT route would be the easier and more cost effective route since there are several tuners already offering proven BIG HP turbo kits for the GT's. The easiest and most cost effective route for a BIG HP FI would bt to just pick up a ZR1, I have seen used ones go for just over $80k, dump another $25k into and you are looking at a reliable 850rwhp in a great handlig 3200 pound car...sure it's a Vette but bang for your buck you would be into for $100-$120K and it would blow the doors off the other cars being mentioned in this thread.

rage2

I've been looking at SLRs for the last few months, and found a few in the $150k range. All needed the 5 year service, which is something like $30k. Spark plug replacement needs engine removal, and fuel filter replacement needs fuel cell removal. Fun stuff. If the big service has been done already, $140k is a great price.

The car has been depreciating huge yearly, I think it's going to bottom out soon.

I don't have any experience modding one, but I did run about 50 laps on a roadcourse in a SLR as a favor for a dealer, and it's an amazing machine to drive on the track. Ride quality is no different than a SL55. I could see it as a daily driver.

AMG BRED

Ford GT all the way. Amazing performance, handling, low maintenance cost, and rock solid value. They still sell close to what people paid for them brand new in 05, and 06.

alms21

+1 on everything said ^^^^^^

I have always thought the SLR was butt ugly.

GeoGeo

Jim,

What do you plan to do with the car? Daily driven? Track? Drag?

I also think that the GT is much much better looking, holding its value well (for a Ford especially), and it's SO much easier to crank out more hp on it. I hate the look of the SLR...with the huge hood and small cabin reminds me of a certain male anatomy part. Also, I'm not aware of a lot of tuners playing around with the SLR.

The SLR does seem to have a bit more "flare" with the upswinging doors and nicer build quality, but with 32K miles on it and huge maintenance cost, I say it doesn't have that edge against the GT.

The GT does have some quality quirks, just visit GT forums and you'll see what I mean. But the car was developed in very little time so it is to be expected.

So between those two, I'd go for the GT. Especially if you want to turn it into a project car.

If you're willing to accept used cars, why not a certain other GT? This one has a number "2" behind it

hhughes1

A picture is worth a thousand words.......wish I had that decision to make

WTDoom

Jim we are having a similar discussion on another forum I frequent . The Fgt is absolutely awesome . I have 2 friends with them and they are full of nothing but praise . One of them tracks his heavily he tells me with a few choice mods the car is a monster and still very comfortable and relatively cheap to run .
The other is a car collector and when he tells me how great it is I tend to listen .
here are some cut and pastes you might find useful :


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Some random observations....

I use my car everyday, I put 26k miles on it. Did several track days with it plus Euro-trips.

Supermarket parking can be an issue ( supermarket parking !!! fantastic ! ) , but you learn the tricks. As Phil said the front luggage compartment is ridiculous but I use the passenger seat.

The cockpit is quite large and there is storage room behind the seats (not if you are 6'2" though ).

I would say it is a mega road car. Softish (compared to an RS that is) dampers, huge torque, long ratios, comfortable seats.... I have driven 1,000 miles in a day and came out cool (can't say the same for my 911).

People's reaction (not that you need to base your car buying decision on this, but it adds to the ownership experience) is always wonderful. I get loads of people coming up curious about it, or asking if it is that Clarkson's guy car, or to tell me they worked at Ford/Mirage in the '60s etc.


Now onto the important stuff....

Performance:
It is mega. You can't really talk about public road performance because it will get you in jail instantly (especially after a couple of mods... more on that later). But on track it is a weapon.

You to remember that the car is around Kg 1,530. So it is quite heavy. The brakes are overwhelmed when you push hard.

Not so much it their stopping abilities but in wear.

I swapped to some bigger AP 6-pot calipers that allow me to run bigger discs and bigger pads.

The pads are not half the size of a GT3 RS, but they are not as big. And you are pushing 1,550kg + driver with 550hp (minimum)... something has to give.

Dan was correct in saying that I went through 2 sets of Pagid RS29, 1 set of front discs and a set of Hoosiers in one day.

But it was an OPL and I would come in for 10 mins then out again (I could not get enough of it). Also I was really giving it 100% which is OK if you are willing to bear the costs....

I went back to Silverstone for another day and on road tyres, pushing it to 95% (what I mean is braking 15-20m earlier on Hangar straight etc), had very negligible effects on my lap times but allowed me to drive home on the same pads.

The second thing to address is the dampers. KW has a good option that firms up the whole thing (lowering the car a bit as well) improving turn it dramatically. Ride quality is not hampered though so you can't go wrong.

But the Ford GT is no RS... forget about it... It is a much more neutral car and you'd be surprised about what you can get away with, but it is a good 200kg heavier. And although the steering feedback is good it is not as sharp as a GT3RS.

Another upgrade that is a must is the supercharger pulley... really you get 80-100HP for £7-800.... A no brainer....

In 650hp+KW+New Brakes trim 7rs and scuderia are not even close . ( forgive the constant scuderia and rs points , one of the questions was how it compared to them on european tracks )

Which can be bad.

It gets boring to lap all day by yourself.... but with the new MP12C, 458s etc we'll see.

So apart from the upgrades and consumables (oh it is quite bad on petrol) it has cost me very little.... Still on the original clutch, the engine is a monster in terms of reliability and punch (not so much from an engineering excellence point of view).

Last thing.... the exhaust note.... I have 3 set ups.... OEM (huge, strong, heavy silencer) is 101db and passes Brands GP.

Borla (Ford Racing Part) is smaller, great sound at high rpms, lets out some 1 meter long blue flames and it is 105db. Never had a problem at Silverstone/Snetterton.
The problem with this is that running it a high speeds (in excess of 150mph) for a long period of time causes the baffles welds to melt. I have that happen to me after the V-Max event so I took it off and will have someone cut it open and fix.

Accufab (similar to Heffner)... it is the great sounding one, it is light, but it is straight through. So it is 118db at 4,500rpms, it gets tiring on long trips, and get you banned in 2 minutes from any track.

If you have any questions please PM me... I have written this whilst doing other stuff so not sure how it came out....

Last thoughts..... the car was designed in 2003/4 to rival the 360 Modena. In 2010 it is still the car to beat in FIA GT1, run by a small budget Swiss team.
With some mods it is also one of the fastest road cars you can get at a track day (Radicals excluded).
And all this without any electronic gizmos whatsoever (only thing the car has is ABS and power steering).

I think this is a testament of how good the car really is.


also :

it is pretty much nuts and bolts. So an extremely easy car to work on if you know what you are doing.

I don't recall any major thing going wrong on mine. It has 26k miles and it has basically been oil filters, oil. fluids, pads and discs (BTW a new slotted disc is £250).

I have not changed the clutch yet, and this is going to be a £2,500 job.

For the rest the engine is bullet proof (which is the upside of using a lazy big block V8 with fancy pistons, rods and valvetrain) and so is the transmission (a gem actually built for the car by Ricardo).

Some cars had a problem with the halfshaft bolts failing. Most these were replaced under warranty with a better version (mine was) and never had a problem since.

I only use Mountune (ex Roush) for any work.

They know the cars inside out (they carried out all the Ford official import mods on the original 101 cars that came to Europe) and they are great.

They are an engineer company and the only car they "service" is the FGT and the original Ford GT40s that are still in Ford possession.

But they are in Brentwood, which means 1h15m on the M25 for me. Usually I organize a work meeting in London before or after I drop/pick up the car, but they also offer a pick up/drop off service.(pretty far from the states I know Jim)

If you want to know more about the car (and whats behind it) get hold of a couple of books... (you are welcome to borrow mines):

Ford GT - The Legend comes to life. Larry Edsall
Ford GT - then and now. Adrian Streather
The Ford GT - New vehicle engineering and technical history of the GT-40. SAE International

I think they will give you a broader perspective of what the car is, why it is here, the difficulties of building a car from the outside in and what it is all about.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I hope that helps you a little Jim

( pm me if you want to e mail teo he is very keen to help .)

WTDoom

some interesting stats (0 to 300kph sport auto 2009 test day ) :

stock cars
0-300 km/h:
24.7s - Koenigsegg CCX-R, 806 PS/1473 kg
26.7s - Gumpert Apollo, 700 PS/1148 kg
27.3s - Ruf Rt12 S, 685 PS/1608 kg
29.7s - Lamborghini Murcielago LP 670-4 SV, 670 PS/1751 kg
40.6s - Wiesmann GT MF5, 507 PS/1421 kg
41.9s - Porsche 997.2 Turbo PDK, 500 PS/1606 kg
50.3s - Porsche GT3, 435 PS/1453 kg
53.7s - Aston Martin V12 Vantage, 517 PS/1709 kg
69.3s - Cadillac CTS-V, 564 PS/1955 kg

tuned cars
0-300 km/h:
22,8 s - Geiger-Ford GT( basically the car described in my other post )
23,8 s - Cargraphic-997 Turbo GT RSC
26,4 s - TechArt GTstreet RS
35,5 s - MTM-Audi RS6 R
43,2 s - Geiger-Corvette Z06

from this years tests :


Stock cars:
20,7 s - Bugatti 16.4 Veyron (Handling-mode, no High Speed-Key)
28,6 s - Porsche 911 GT2 RS (7,6 s faster than the 997 GT2)
32,3 s - Lamborghini Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera (458 Italia: 32,4 s)
35,4 s - Corvette ZR1 (lines up with MotorTrend's 35,5 s time)
42,2 s - Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG (loses power at higher speeds)
50,6 s - Lexus LFA (no comment...)

54,3 s (to 280 km/h) - BMW M3 GTS (I knew it won't do 300 km/h...)

Tuned cars:
17,3 s - 9ff BT1000 AWD ( this is just stupid ! )
33,5 s - MTM-Audi RS6 Clubsport (last year's Avant did it in 35,5 seconds)
36,0 s - Importracing-Nissan GT-R
41,7 s - Väth-V60 RS (tuned SL63 AMG)
51,9 s - Wimmer-C63 AMG



ONLY 2 SECONDS SLOWER THAN A VEYRON ?????WTF ????
( they did post the worst veyron figures yet mind you ) regardless that is a seriously fast car .

Jim Brady

Wow, this is THE board what great responses from all. I'll go though my thoughts and give you my decision.

I've run an FGT on the track, albeit a stock one and have a good feel for what needs improvement and this would be my list
1. brakes as WT said, AP makes a set up sold though Stillen.
2. KW suspension
3. Trans cooler.
4. tires, the stock Goodyears are old tech
The downside with extracting more power which is easy but prolonged road race sessions seems to cause high temps and since most of my racing is in the high desert, this is a big negative with he FGT.
The block is good for 1000 hp and the drive train is pretty bullet proof. Driving position is a bit off but the car looks good.

GeoGeo wanted to know what I was going to do with the car, which is a great question.
Like all my cars I'm going to run them on the track, DE, standing mile, club events and pound every Vett and Porsche I see. At my age I don't buy them for the next owner like most of the porsche weenies. (POC racers excepted)

Ah, the SLR. The super-car you can drive everyday and the previous owner did over 6k a year!
Engine wise, I've seen the 5.4 bumped to 800+ hp and 1000 NM torque. Secret is getting more air to the intercoolers. No issues with the motor, as the SLR block is high strength. No over heating issues on modified SLR's. Given the power range I'd be running I think it's a draw with both having + and -.
The car in question is quite nice exterior and interior but needs the 30k service and as Rage2 points out, this beast was rode hard and put away wet. So the 30k service is north of $20k and also a set of tires.

I enquired whether they would offer this as a CPO and they got back to me with a No.
So the $140k deal will cost about $175k getting it up to snuff before I perform the Jimmy mods. As the super-car prices fall, it's a good idea to look at the hidden costs to run these cars.
Oh, I almost forgot, to Mach 5, I don't have the proper wardrobe for a Vett and although my wife is blonde, she's not fat.
To JrCart, the BS has been a Evosport... I'm waiting.

GeoGeo

Well, if you want to "pound every Vette and Porsche", then you're leaning more towards the GT, I presume. The SLR is not known (to me at least) to be a track hero. Ironically, the SLR looks to me more like a "Grand Touring" car whereas the FGT is more track worthy. Plus modding a SLR will be mucho $$$$.

If you don't mind "4wd", there's also the R8 with SC or TT option. Certainly not as exclusive as the SLR or FGT.

MACHC5

I would think most of the guys here have never tried an EVO so this link will give some insight as to what they are and why they are "A Best Bang for the Buck".
Back in 2005 I was seriously looking at a Porch and stopped by a Mitsubishi dealer, the rest is history.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9y6lIaGZA4w

For about $60,000 total after a little up fitting with ROBI Spec KW suspension and engine work. Most other vehicles are just there to be over taken and passed.

Jim, It's not a FGT or a SLR but it is exotic and a lot of fun to drive.

MachC5

jrcart

Jimmy, I heard that you've been to Evosport...but what are you "waiting" for? Can you make it to NV in 2 weeks for Silver State Classic? I think it would be a blast to see two Evosport tunes BS's on a top speed shootout. I would assume you still have cats and a pump gas tune, but I would be interested to hear exactly everything you got done to your beast. Did you open up the motor or top-end? You gotta fill us in now that you let the cat out of the bag.

Jim Brady

Mach,
Your quite right, I ran against one at Willow that was kitted up and had Hosiers R6's... until he blew his turbo and oiled up the track. He couldn't catch the BS but po'd a lot of vetts and vipers.

alexander stemer

I'm still hung up on the fact I don't like the SLR's looks. Do people here feel this is a great-looking car? AS