Carac

AMG US reps dispensing the allocations have said around 75 and and definitely less than 100.

LOVEMYBS

Thanks.

Jim Brady

Done.

Doctodd33

I'm not sure comparing a 911 which is a smaller and thus lighter car to a CLK is a fair comparison. Not a shocker that the 911 might be faster stock. But the BS is faster for other reasons. Nice write up though....very eloquent.....but just not true on so many fronts.

Jim Brady

Traffic,
Hummm the answer is very simple, Porsche averages $28,247 profit per car and the faithful keep buying them. You seem to fancy 911 but really it seems the owners are getting hosed on the new ones. The bean counters have taken over and no longer get hand built Metzger motors. That's why many have jumped ship to the AMG Black Series.

MB averages around $1000 profit per unit and you say they're overpriced! So what is it?

Traffic53

i agree with this, generally, but they do get compared because they do the same things with similar price tags.

i'd love to hear about why i'm wrong on so many fronts. simply saying it doesn't make it so.

Traffic53

okay, smart guy. i don't know why i bother defending the porsche 911. as if it's necessary. i'll address your vague, made-up statement that 'many of the 40,000 911 owners have jumped ship' and traded their cars for BS cars. i don't- and i know you don't- have the data to support any claims about the previous cars owned by current BS owners. your claim is anecdotal at best, but seeing as there are roughly 450 possible CLK and C BS owners...if ALL of them previously owned current 911's, then you could say that 1% of 997 owners jumped ship to the "better" BS cars. 1 percent.

$1000 profit on BS cars? are you for real, or just trolling the car sites trying to get a rise out of people? the suggestion that Mercedes Benz went through the north american certification process for the C BS in order to make $100,000 on the whole program is reckless interneting. and yes, they are overpriced.

Doctodd33

Internet arguments are a waste of time, but ill play. All I really have to say has already been said about the 911 by Brady, who I'll go out on a limb and say he has the cred to back up his statements. Just because "the general population is buying more 911's" doesn't mean that the 911 hasn't been diluted and isn't an inferior, outdated car. Sheeple are ignorant....but it's not their fault. They probably aren't purists and probably think drinking milk is good for them, food is safe, and the government has their best interests in mind. All you are doing with your debate is showing me that you can talk a good game....just like most useful idiots.

Doctodd33

Your "fronts" seem to be based on statistics and sales figures and market and price tags, etc. Life should be so simple. What does the price tag of a 911 and the price tags of a BS matter? They are irrelevant in defining the car. Your analogy of art and opinions made the most sense.

However I also find it hard to believe that MB only makes $1000/ unit. That would seem like proprietary information, but I'm not saying it's impossible. I'm not one of their accountans.

ET550

The best you can do is use a 14 year old 993TT as a comparison? Why don't you compare apples to apples and use a same year 2008 997TT which sold for over $140K new and is now bringing about $90K retail. I guess the porsche was similarly overpriced as well. And while we are at it, why not look at the 2008 astons and maseratis which were similarly priced and see how well they are holding up. So what is your point again?

Traffic53

i don't believe cost is irrelevant in the critique of a car. indeed, my analogy of art and opinions was a nice way of saying i don't think the ones talking here know what a good car is. you know what you like. but, in the end of this silly exchange, you will have concluded that i'm an idiot because i don't believe the C BS is a bargain, while never actually saying anything about the subject, and never actually supporting whatever the heck your point is. i'm commenting on machines, while you continue to comment on me. classic. make an argument, for god's sake. i have no bone to pick with any individuals here. get off your school-girl sensitivity train and have a discussion about cars.

i don't think the C63 BS is priced appropriately. that's all. go ahead and tell me why you think it's worth $120k. then discuss how that value holds up against the market- meaning other 2+2 coupes in the $120k range. this is the basis of my comments. if you're considering a C BS, you have to look at the 911 in comparison- unless your only in the market for the latest and greatest benz. i'm not interested in that scenario. i'm interested in a discussion about relative performance and value. you have a CLK BS...how's that working out for you? is it worth the $140k you paid for it? you still like it? is it useful everyday? can it be used all-seasons? how's it do in light snow? can you throw the kids in back? how do you like the trans? how does it behave on the track? how is it around town? is the ride soft or harsh? does the front bumper cover rub on the ground every time you enter the driveway? does it wake the neighbors? these are all things that are important to me, even as i consider cars of this price range. i know how the 911 turbo behaves in these instances, and i'm satisfied with it. now, maybe i'd like to try the CLK BS. maybe i'd like to try the C BS, but if the answers to all those questions result in no, no, no, bad, not really...then that's kind of a problem. the value of that car would go down. way down. the CLK and C BS cars are not exotic, they are not track-day, they are not show-pieces. they are daily drive coupes that need to work in a variety of scenarios. in my opinion, they don't do the things they CAN do well enough to totally blow off the things they can't do.

so, go ahead and spend 5 minutes discussing what you know- and feel free to explain why i'm the idiot for pitting like vehicles head-to-head. let's be clear that i've already heard the argument that mercedes didn't design the BS to be useful. tell me why either BS is 'totally awesome' and worth every penny.

Doctodd33

I didn't say u were an idiot in that sense of the word....u obviously don't know what a useful idiot is.

LOVEMYBS

Great discussion, keep it going! For the past few months I've been looking at new 2011/2012 P-997TT's and S coupes. Love these cars! Yesterday the weather was nice, there was no traffic, I wanted some fresh air so I decided to uncover my CLK's and give them some exercise. After driving my slighly modded 09 ML550 for the past two months I was shocked at how small my CLKs felt. They also seemed to lack the performance I had previously become accustomed to. Will a P Turbo S restore that? I think so but as was pointed out earlier it's a smaller car than a CLK which after yesterdays rides could be negative factor. Am I ready for a larger AMG such as a S/CL65? I'm beginning to think so-

Traffic53

your silence on the topic of cars is deafening. why don't you continue carrying on about my misguided, confused ignorance in a private email. i don't mind listening to educated people ramble- but the rest of the readers here might be bored.


you'd figure that one out right away following a test drive. i drove an '11 TT S a few days ago and was properly blown away. really, really excellent vehicle. the PDK makes all the difference in the world when compared to the porsche tiptronic. that said, at $140k used, it's a pretty big premium for the transmission. you could buy a similar experience for an even $100k with an 08 or 09 turbo that has the GT1 motor and a manual gear box. is the PDK worth the extra $40k? that one is personal. i liked the PDK, but i wouldn't pay $40k for it. i think the CL is a firm departure from the performance category into the luxury category. the maserati GT might be a less dramatic change from a CLK BS to something larger. that CL is giant.

Doctodd33

I said I'd play so I did. Btw, how many CLK BS's do you own?...not counting video games.

As for intelligence....yea you are the genius here. Feel better that your delusions of grandeur are confirmed. Have a nice day.

Traffic53

6 posts and not a coherent word about cars- or the english language. in a private email, i'd be interested in hearing how one 'confirms' grandiose delusions. you're amusing, if nothing else.

respectfully, go away. you have nothing to add on topic.

Jim Brady

Most internet discussion go off track when side one resorts to ad hominem form of arugment. So far you've called me BS, a troll... Mr. Smart guy, Mr. veteran porsche (sarcasticly). I guess the kool aid remark hit home.

My post said MB which is all models including the Smart car. No data on individual models but suffice to say it is no where near the $28k porsche makes.
Mid 70's today, i'll take the BS to the club and pick up my buddy on the way as you can't get the clubs in his 911.

Traffic53

ok, we have a start. the BS betters the 911 in the area of golfing. i golf. i see the value here.

LOVEMYBS

Thanks, I'm torn between buying a new PDK T-S ($170K) vs. as you correctly point out a used low mile 08/09 CPO turbo 6-speed/Triptronic for $75-90K. Big savings and almost as much fun. We'll see. Still like the CL65 though and if I can find one of the 40 08 AMG anniversary models it would be a slam dunk. That car IMO may have future collector value.

ET550

Wow. A value priced (at MSRP according to Traffic53)) low mile 08/09 CPO 997 turbo can now be had for $75-90K, which is coincidentally the same price range as the originally way over priced 08 CLK BS. Imagine that.

Traffic53

i never said that a CPO turbo was 75k. i said $100k. use your scroll function and get it straight, mate. but because you asked, the 08 turbo was also priced at $138k, MSRP. apples to apples. today, a CPO car trades for $100k, where the BS trades for $85k. i could be wrong, but i'm guessing the limited supply Merc gets less on resale because it's not quite the all-around car that the mass-produced turbo is. supply would certainly suggest just the opposite- since the cars were of equal value when new. now the market says the cars are not of equal value- even when the turbo is a dime a dozen and the Merc is ultra-rare. i've asked several times for current owners to share their joy with the function of the BS, as i have a soft spot for a nimble v8 benz. instead of sparking a discussion about the value of owning the Merc, all we've learned is that i'm an idiot- something i would have been happy to admit in the first post- if it would have gotten us to a discussion about cars quicker.

alas, here we are, still waiting for a owner to rave about the value of their BS. so far, the Merc is better at hauling golf clubs.

oh well,
respectfully.

Jim Brady

Back from the club great day in SoCal. I do like the white line parking the BS gets. Valets like the BS and they all comment on "hey that's a great whip", it's not so.....common.

So I ask Wally the valet, do the porsches get special parking, I never see them up front?
"Oh yes Mr. Brady, we park them next to the practice range." Why do you do that? Well, Mr. Brady to tell you the truth the members that drive them don't tip. They think it's a privilege just to drive their car but mostly they're pretty cheap. Won't they get damaged by the errant shots from the practice range? Wally..."we hope so".

ET550

Maybe you need to use your scroll function and get it straight. The $75-$90K for the 08/09 turbo was quoted from the post by LovemyBS. The only thing attributed to you was what a great value the 911 turbo at MSRP is. By the way how many options were included for that $138K MSRP on a turbo. Most of them were out the door for a lot more than that. The BS had no available options. Bottom line is most 2008 Turbos that sold for close to $150k can be had for around $90K which is no better than the depreciation on a BS. And why are we even comparing a turbo to a BS anyway. Most knowledgeable enthusiasts would agree the comparable counterpart to a BS is a GT3. If you want to talk about the value of a 911 turbo why dont you look up some GTR owners and waste their time. Most people come here to rave about their cars and their enjoyment in driving them. Not what a great value they are. As I originally said, most high performance cars in the over $120K category are overpriced and you can always find something comparable for cheaper. You want value, buy used, plain and simple. And lastly, I would say a good number of the CLK BS owners have previously owned or driven 911 turbos (including myself) and are happy owners of our BS's. You on the other hand have apparantly never owned or driven a CLK BS so why are you even trying to make comparisons? I am happy to know you are "satisfied" with your 911 and its ability to have kids in the back, not scrape curbs or wake the neighbors, and drive in light snow. I on the other hand will take the fun factor every time. To each his own.

Carac

I've been more of an observer of how this thread got derailed, but I have to agree. I took the Black to a decent sized (125-150 cars) Cars & Coffee meet in Raleigh, NC a while back. The local P-club was there so there were literally 30-40 911's. Twin turbo vipers, Countachs, Gallardos, 360s, 430s, etc. I was taken back how surprised people were to see the Black Series. Everyone that walked up said they had "never seen one" and that it was their "favorite car" there. Some had seen both Clarkson's "Thriller" DVD and the Top Gear review, but most were curious about the car and interested to learn about what it was, what made it different, etc. I don't buy cars to impress others, I buy them because I love them. I love the culture of cars and talking about dumb stuff like triangulated/seam-welded chassis, crank angles, etc, and the CLK Black Series is a conversation starter. Meanwhile, the p-car section was almost empty besides the owners, because everyone knows what they're looking at...one of 50+ variants of a car they see everywhere. I respect the 911 for what it has been and what it has become, but to me (and this is just my opinion) the 911 has become the Camry of sports cars. Extremely popular and supremely competent, but the boring choice. People who don't care about the act/art of driving buy a Camry because they need the appliance of cars, a tool for point A to point B, it's "The Car". Likewise the 911 has become the default choice when you want a "sports car."

Again, the 911 is a fine car, but every time I see someone driving one I say to myself, there's someone with no imagination in choosing a car...and I'm getting the impression I'm not the only one (unless it's a GT2 or GT3 RS, which I tend to respect and which don't suffer fools). And there's the whole issue with no one ever letting to cut in, pull out, merge, etc when you're in a 911.

Also, those arguing the case for the 911 vs Black Series probably won't find a lot of confirmation bias on the 911's side on a Mercedes message board...just sayin. This thread about the oddity of seeing a couple of red ones on autotrader has gone on a weird tangent.

Summing this theead up, it's cheaper to wait 3-4 years after an expensive sports car is sold to get a good deal...most of the time. Cars like the Ford GT are an exception to the rule.

Traffic53

thank you for the gripping fairy tale of mr brady and the valet. wally.
did you know that valet's prefer the black series 6 to 1 over the 911? on a more interesting note, i've found a bunch of animated cartoon faces that sum up this meeting of the minds... and finally

my apologies to the OP for helping veer off-topic. i won't ask any more questions about the black series cars except to say this: for a lovefest-based car forum, the few contributors here don't seem to have much to say about their "whips". thought this would be a quality resource for actual real-world reviews that are more in-depth than: it's fun, and 'people dig it.'

again, no disrespect. carry about as normal. if they had a white flag cartoon, i'd click it.