Stenzel-Germany

Hi,

No, it doesn't mean that.

The only thing I noticed was the uneven ignition interval per exhaust port and want answers.


I've found my answers, or rather a very good explanation by the engineer Jürgen Poggel. It's for BMW, but exactly the same principle.

https://www.bimmertoday.de/2011/09/2...es-bmw-m5-f10/

Also good explained:

AutoZine Technical School

Technische Analyse: Der brandneue BMW 5er (G30) 2017 | YouWheel - Ihr Autoexperte | Seite 2017


In summary for crossplane AMG M177/M178:

It is probably the case that the uneven firing order with the AMG GT 290 TS exhaust manifold (one per cylinder head) is not the absolute best. (@crossplane crankshaft)
Better than single scroll though.
With exhaust manifolds that span the cylinder heads you have an even ignition sequence. Is probably the best.
However, the typical V8 sound changes. (The reference to the similar effect with an X-Pipe was also interesting).

Now I understand why BMW builds both versions and AMG didn't change that. (@crossplane crankshaft) Here the sound (AMG trademark) is more important than the last %.
And there I am the same opinion. :-) So, the GT 290 manifolds remain.

With the BS flatplane, the 100% result automatically due to the construction, unfortunately also the "atypical" sound.
There is another goal here.

A Black Series with exhaust manifolds that span the cylinder heads, you have an uneven ignition sequence and the "oldstyle" sound.
Let's see if someone builds it. (Ford didn't do that with the shelby mustangs?)


Example:
Fächerkrümmer rechts + links Edelstahl AISI 310S für Serien Turbo Verfügbar auf Anfrage für BMW F10 M5, Fächerkrümmer rechts + links Edelstahl AISI 310S für Serien Turbo Verfügbar auf Anfrage (supersprint.com)


Best regards

Stenzel

Acta_Non_Verba

Hi Stenzel,

Ford Exhaust



Best,

Acta

MikeGLS450

Does that mean that it wouldn’t work??

Stenzel-Germany

Hi Acta,

Thanks. That's exactly what I remembered. The individual headers were also connected to both cylinder heads.

I think it was (flatplane engine) just about the classic V8 sound.

Of course, it looks spectacular due to the conventional engine design (no hot V).

Or rather strange? In any case, it's a "it doesn't belong that way" look :-)


Best regards

Stenzel

Stenzel-Germany

Hi MikeGLS450,

Of course it works.

It's just that the crossplane crank M177/M178 engine with the standard AMG Twin Scroll exhaust manifolds does not achieve 100% of what is technically possible.

You forego the last few percent (2-5% who knows?) in favor of the classic crossplane V8 sound.

Compared to single scroll, this version is way ahead. (exhaust gas flow, effectiveness, response behavior)

But don't forget, from a performance/money standpoint. The winner is: Stock single scroll :-)


Best regards

Stenzel

MikeGLS450

I’m wondering why if the twin scroll is so much better why more companies don’t offer it.

thebishman

Cost?

MikeGLS450

Understood but is it that much more?? I seen only one tuner offer it (GAD). Surprised there aren’t more.




QUOTE=thebishman;8671796]Cost?[/QUOTE]

Wolfman

Don't think price was a factor given that the E63s with more power (603hp) and twin scroll turbos costs less.
My assumption is that the AMG GT range received this engine years earlier as a standalone dry-sump model and didn't bother updating it. Low volume cost containment plus the performance was excellent for the RWD platform. MB didn't touch the powertrain during facelifts either.

Stenzel-Germany

Hi,

The W213 / W222 / W290 models with M177 Twin Scroll Biturbo was the next performance level. (612HP / 639HP)
But they also have four-wheel drive and completely different transmissions. AMG could then unlock torque up to 900Nm.

If AMG had built their existing TS parts into the GT, the performance would have been increased. (e.g. 639PS +) but the torque would still been limited. (Max. was 700Nm with the GTR)
And the "gap" to the double cost BS would been smaller.

With the Black Series, the transmission has probably been increased to 800Nm. And 800Nm at 730 hp, was not really much.
But, there were other goals as well. What is the maximum possible. (without looking at the costs)

This table says a lot:

GTR 585HP / 700Nm (SS)
GT63 585HP / 800Nm (SS)

GTBS 730PS / 800Nm (TS)
GT63S 639HP / 900Nm (TS)


You can already do 1000Nm in the GT. Sounds good too. (Spare Transmission recomend :-) :-) )
Do you take 1000Nm on the streets? Without four-wheel drive? You need a glued drag strip. On Street, rather no.


Retrofitting costs are already higher with twin scroll. Installed stock by the manufacturer, the additional price should not be significant.

Retrofitting is more complex. You just need a lot more parts. Which means additional costs and installation work.

Not to be compared with a SS Turbo upgrade. Since this can bring the same or more top performance (THE selling point, and often also the name of the kit)
And for an estimated half price. Sometimes even cheaper in exchange and can also be installed more easily.
What argument should a tuner use to justify the additional price? 98% of tuning customers just want POWER.
A single scroll can do that perfectly. I don't think GAD has sold many TS sets yet.

As I wrote above. Technically fascinating concept. Find it great.

Is it worth?
Only if you are very bored and / or simply you have too much money. Then there is only one answer ---> No. :-) :-)


Best regards

Stenzel

jb123mb

Did you complete your TS install?

Stenzel-Germany

Hi,

No time yet.

Best regards

Stenzel

srO_Michael_Orz

I m doing twin scroll conversion

MikeGLS450

What’s the horsepower difference just by bolting on the twin scroll turbos without upping the boost???

Stenzel-Germany

Hi,

Please more pics and info.

Thanks

Best regards

Stenzel

Kid Dynamite

iTrader: (1)

The main question for me at this point is "will the flatplane fit in the NON-Flatplane engine" ?!

Stenzel-Germany

Hi,

I'm not 100% sure that the widths/diameters of the crankshafts and connecting rod bearings have been changed. But don't believe it.
It would also be possible that the outlet screw connection has been changed. Mercedes sometimes does that.
But that can be found out (compare the part numbers. Bearings a.s.o.)

Assume, that the flatplane crankshaft fits directly. (Not proved)

In any case, also need the M178 LS2 camshafts and a suitable engine software. (e.g. injection - ignition sequence)

LS 2 engine also has less compression. Should be the pistons (8.6:1?) of the new AMG A 45.
If you have a GT / GTS (10.5 : 1?) engine and want to drive high boost pressure, replacing the pistons would not be a bad idea.

LS 2 engine also have the larger twin scroll turbochargers including more boost pressure.

Is this conversion worth it?

Advantages of the Flatplane crankshaft:
Even firing order.
Less rotating mass. Turns up "easier" as a result.
Easier (cheaper) production (especially as a forged part)

Disadvantages of the Flatplane crankshaft:
Even firing order :-) :-)
Runs rougher. (mass balance worse)
Expensive elaborate conversion.

Sounds VERY different too. More like a BMW/Audi V8
Find the flat plane sound very "disadvantageous" compared to the crossplane V8. A matter of taste.

Best regards

Stenzel

SilverBullet18

Keep this updated!

jb123mb

Any updates on the Twin Scroll conversions?

ppgtrpro

hello, I am doing a preparation on my gtrpro with the turbos and collector of the E-63 amg these are twin scroll turbos, but it requires a lot of modification like replacing the hoses, I will tell you when it is finished but already just in original reprogramming I was at 690 hp, and I had high and low pressure pumps from spool installed from the IPE decata, all the radiators and intercoolers were also replaced, the power should be around 950 hp in SP98 and ethanol 1100hp (I am in France)

sevenhead

Photos would be great and what are you going to do about clutches?
Good luck!

​​​

ppgtrpro

[QUOTE=sevenhead;8848561]Des photos seraient géniales et qu'allez-vous faire à propos des pochettes ?
Bonne chance!

soon because the preparation is not finished and what do you call the pockets?
]

sevenhead

[QUOTE=ppgtrpro;8848576]​​​​Désolé, je ne parle pas français, mais avec cette quantité de puissance, vous aurez besoin d'embrayages améliorés pour la boîte-pont.