Meguiars replaces oils in paint is BS info from paint manufacturers
07-18-2005, 01:58 PM
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Meguiars replaces oils in paint is BS info from paint manufacturers
I found this on the BMW forum and this topic has always interested me. I hate to say it but I actually believed this at one time before I statred to get into detailing seriously.
The following is an excerpt of a 3-5-04 post made
by the technical specialist at Meguiar’s, Mike
Phillips.
…When you apply a Meguiar's polish, the trade
secret oils found in all Meguiar’s polishes, (and
even Meguiar’s compounds, cleaner/polishes and even
some waxes), penetrate into the paint and replace
the original resins, (or oils), that have been
broken-down, leached out and/or deteriorated. These
trade secret oils then act to fill the empty
microscopic pores, air pockets and surface
imperfections thus preventing unwanted substances
from entering into these areas.
…2) They replace and replenish the oils/resins
originally present in your car’s paint
…Meguiar’s unique background and close
relationships with giants in both the automotive
paint industry and new car manufactures, (for about
as long as these two industries have been around),
should give you the confidence you need to enable
you to place your trust in Meguiar’s, the surface
care experts.
Mike Phillips
Technical Specialist
1-800-854-8073 ext. 189
mphillips@meguiars.com
"Find something you like and use it often"
Jack Anderson
Paint Instructor for the PPG paint company
When I first read this article I thought, “Wow,
these guys have products that will, in their words,
replace and replenish the original oils/resins in
my paint. Then I started thinking. Being a believer
in Meguiar’s, my trusted surface care experts would
never lead me astray or to educate me with twisted
meanings or untruths. I would expect good clear and
concise language. It seemed to me that some of the
information in this article was a little far
fetched.
My research started and the first call went to
Dupont’s tech department, my second call to BASF’s
tech department and third to PPG’s tech department.
The questions: Can a wax or polish replace and or
replenish the oils/resins in paint? Can a wax or
polish penetrate the surface and replace the
original oils/resins that have broken down, leached
out and/or deteriorated? I then placed calls to the
top wax and polish manufacturers and then to their
raw material suppliers. My research and consulting
background has given me a set of tools not
available to most people. It’s amazing the amount
of information available if you know where to look.
Out of respect for the manufacturers I will not
divulge very much specific information at this
time.
Basically all three paint manufacturers came back
with the same answer. The general consensus is wax
or polish cannot penetrate into the paint surface.
At best, a wax or polish can remove minor
imperfections and lay on the surface to provide a
semi-permanent coating that can fill minor defects
but in no way can replace anything that has leached
out of the paint. Materials that leach out of paint
do so by design and are never to be replaced. If
the items that leached out of paint were replaced
you would not have a viable permanent coating.
PPG was the only paint company that asked why and
where. When I told them I heard it from Meguiar’s
and Meguiar’s apparently had an alignment with PPG
they responded with, “we have no alignment with
that company.” We recommend 3M products for color
sand and buff for both refinish and OEM
applications.
As far as the wax and polish manufacturers go. I
received a number of interesting comments from my
questions. A couple of them went into great detail
about their product and what it was capable of.
Some of it was so crazy you’d think they were
trying to convince me that pigs could fly. My
conversations were full of both good and bad
information. So much so they need to be posted
individually though most were a little self-serving
and twisted information similar to Mike’s article.
This little project consumed me for some time since
the 3-5-04 post. Generally I do not participate in
these forums, I’m like Jimmy Swaggert and like to
watch. But I think it time to join in the fun. I
have learned a great deal about paints, how to care
for them and a great deal about the raw materials
that go into waxes and polishes. I am a car nut as
well.
Through the years I have learned the strength of
the written word and one thing we have to realize
is that Mike Phillips has the power of the pen! He
has a powerful brand behind him that automatically
gives him, for the lack of a better term, God-like
status in the wax and polish community. With this
power he can choose educate and give to the greater
good or not. The way words in this article are
manipulated puts a big “?” behind the phrase,
“Trusted Surface Care Experts!”
Giuseppe Pepperoni
Sometimes you’re the bug!
Sometimes you’re the windshield!
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writeb
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 78
Pictures: 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:26 am Post
subject:
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with
quote
GP,
First of all, welcome, chief.
Regarding your post, I don't really know what to
say. Regarding marketing in a really competitive
sector, Mfrs are going to blow as much smoke as
they can get away with, really. While I'm working
mainly with anecdotal evidence, (as I can't afford
all of the many phases/levels of their car care
system), Regardless of the dissappointment due to
potential ethical contraventions, I'm sure any
protests would in the most optimistic sense only
result in an astrik being added to their marketing
statements.
Plus the perception that they've made some of the
best and well known car appearance components. If
they can make me the best polish and wax available
for my car, they can tell me they grind up genies
into their paste, as long as it works!
Seriously though, I see where you are coming from,
if you've worked with paint before, it is rather
embarrassing to see those statements mentioned by a
Meguires representative. But for all we know,
someone probably blew smoke down his pipe too.
I've brushed over the technology involved in paint
care, after it has cured, and the chemistry behind
it seems like it can be rather advanced. I hope we
can rely on you to share your newly acquired
knowledge. I.e. what we really can skip using and
get to the good stuff! Wink
Thx for the post, hope you stick around.
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Giuseppe_Pepperoni
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Pictures: 0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:28 pm Post
subject:
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Thanks for the kind words. I'll be glad to stick
around.
To respond: Meguiar's shouldn't have to blow smoke
to be successful. Interesting you should put it
that way...How about an extreme example: Phillip
Morris - remember when it was safe to smoke? I see
your point but if they claim to have genies and
have none it should go to the bottom of the list.
This business tactic has become an epidemic. We, as
consumers, deserve more!
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J!m
Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 487
Pictures: 10
Location: Connecticut / Long Island / West Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:30 pm Post
subject:
Reply
with
quote
I was a die-hard 'M' user for many years, and was
pleased with the results.
I have since diversified my car-care arsenal to
include quite a few brands I'm sure the majority of
you here have never heard of.
My point: Try new stuff (perhaps on the neighbor's
car...) and decide for yourself.
I have slung a lot of paint, and as I read the
original post, I had to control my laughter. If
something could penetrate the paint, it would not
do it's intended job of sealing the surface to
prevent corrosion (looking good is actually a
second thing).
And, I agree with PPG (whom I have used and am
quite pleased with their products) that 3M finish
perfecting products are about the best money can
buy (though you can easily pay more). I use 3M
products quite a bit in my arsenal.
Thanks again for the interesting read. I'm sure
many readers here will learn a lot from it- and
that's the point.
J!m
_________________
"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you
'wanna go?"
The following is an excerpt of a 3-5-04 post made
by the technical specialist at Meguiar’s, Mike
Phillips.
…When you apply a Meguiar's polish, the trade
secret oils found in all Meguiar’s polishes, (and
even Meguiar’s compounds, cleaner/polishes and even
some waxes), penetrate into the paint and replace
the original resins, (or oils), that have been
broken-down, leached out and/or deteriorated. These
trade secret oils then act to fill the empty
microscopic pores, air pockets and surface
imperfections thus preventing unwanted substances
from entering into these areas.
…2) They replace and replenish the oils/resins
originally present in your car’s paint
…Meguiar’s unique background and close
relationships with giants in both the automotive
paint industry and new car manufactures, (for about
as long as these two industries have been around),
should give you the confidence you need to enable
you to place your trust in Meguiar’s, the surface
care experts.
Mike Phillips
Technical Specialist
1-800-854-8073 ext. 189
mphillips@meguiars.com
"Find something you like and use it often"
Jack Anderson
Paint Instructor for the PPG paint company
When I first read this article I thought, “Wow,
these guys have products that will, in their words,
replace and replenish the original oils/resins in
my paint. Then I started thinking. Being a believer
in Meguiar’s, my trusted surface care experts would
never lead me astray or to educate me with twisted
meanings or untruths. I would expect good clear and
concise language. It seemed to me that some of the
information in this article was a little far
fetched.
My research started and the first call went to
Dupont’s tech department, my second call to BASF’s
tech department and third to PPG’s tech department.
The questions: Can a wax or polish replace and or
replenish the oils/resins in paint? Can a wax or
polish penetrate the surface and replace the
original oils/resins that have broken down, leached
out and/or deteriorated? I then placed calls to the
top wax and polish manufacturers and then to their
raw material suppliers. My research and consulting
background has given me a set of tools not
available to most people. It’s amazing the amount
of information available if you know where to look.
Out of respect for the manufacturers I will not
divulge very much specific information at this
time.
Basically all three paint manufacturers came back
with the same answer. The general consensus is wax
or polish cannot penetrate into the paint surface.
At best, a wax or polish can remove minor
imperfections and lay on the surface to provide a
semi-permanent coating that can fill minor defects
but in no way can replace anything that has leached
out of the paint. Materials that leach out of paint
do so by design and are never to be replaced. If
the items that leached out of paint were replaced
you would not have a viable permanent coating.
PPG was the only paint company that asked why and
where. When I told them I heard it from Meguiar’s
and Meguiar’s apparently had an alignment with PPG
they responded with, “we have no alignment with
that company.” We recommend 3M products for color
sand and buff for both refinish and OEM
applications.
As far as the wax and polish manufacturers go. I
received a number of interesting comments from my
questions. A couple of them went into great detail
about their product and what it was capable of.
Some of it was so crazy you’d think they were
trying to convince me that pigs could fly. My
conversations were full of both good and bad
information. So much so they need to be posted
individually though most were a little self-serving
and twisted information similar to Mike’s article.
This little project consumed me for some time since
the 3-5-04 post. Generally I do not participate in
these forums, I’m like Jimmy Swaggert and like to
watch. But I think it time to join in the fun. I
have learned a great deal about paints, how to care
for them and a great deal about the raw materials
that go into waxes and polishes. I am a car nut as
well.
Through the years I have learned the strength of
the written word and one thing we have to realize
is that Mike Phillips has the power of the pen! He
has a powerful brand behind him that automatically
gives him, for the lack of a better term, God-like
status in the wax and polish community. With this
power he can choose educate and give to the greater
good or not. The way words in this article are
manipulated puts a big “?” behind the phrase,
“Trusted Surface Care Experts!”
Giuseppe Pepperoni
Sometimes you’re the bug!
Sometimes you’re the windshield!
Back to top
Offline View user's profile Send private message
writeb
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 78
Pictures: 3
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:26 am Post
subject:
Reply
with
quote
GP,
First of all, welcome, chief.
Regarding your post, I don't really know what to
say. Regarding marketing in a really competitive
sector, Mfrs are going to blow as much smoke as
they can get away with, really. While I'm working
mainly with anecdotal evidence, (as I can't afford
all of the many phases/levels of their car care
system), Regardless of the dissappointment due to
potential ethical contraventions, I'm sure any
protests would in the most optimistic sense only
result in an astrik being added to their marketing
statements.
Plus the perception that they've made some of the
best and well known car appearance components. If
they can make me the best polish and wax available
for my car, they can tell me they grind up genies
into their paste, as long as it works!
Seriously though, I see where you are coming from,
if you've worked with paint before, it is rather
embarrassing to see those statements mentioned by a
Meguires representative. But for all we know,
someone probably blew smoke down his pipe too.
I've brushed over the technology involved in paint
care, after it has cured, and the chemistry behind
it seems like it can be rather advanced. I hope we
can rely on you to share your newly acquired
knowledge. I.e. what we really can skip using and
get to the good stuff! Wink
Thx for the post, hope you stick around.
Back to top
Offline View user's profile Send private message
Giuseppe_Pepperoni
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 2
Pictures: 0
PostPosted: Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:28 pm Post
subject:
Reply
with
quote
Thanks for the kind words. I'll be glad to stick
around.
To respond: Meguiar's shouldn't have to blow smoke
to be successful. Interesting you should put it
that way...How about an extreme example: Phillip
Morris - remember when it was safe to smoke? I see
your point but if they claim to have genies and
have none it should go to the bottom of the list.
This business tactic has become an epidemic. We, as
consumers, deserve more!
Back to top
Offline View user's profile Send private message
J!m
Joined: 22 Jun 2003
Posts: 487
Pictures: 10
Location: Connecticut / Long Island / West Virginia
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2004 5:30 pm Post
subject:
Reply
with
quote
I was a die-hard 'M' user for many years, and was
pleased with the results.
I have since diversified my car-care arsenal to
include quite a few brands I'm sure the majority of
you here have never heard of.
My point: Try new stuff (perhaps on the neighbor's
car...) and decide for yourself.
I have slung a lot of paint, and as I read the
original post, I had to control my laughter. If
something could penetrate the paint, it would not
do it's intended job of sealing the surface to
prevent corrosion (looking good is actually a
second thing).
And, I agree with PPG (whom I have used and am
quite pleased with their products) that 3M finish
perfecting products are about the best money can
buy (though you can easily pay more). I use 3M
products quite a bit in my arsenal.
Thanks again for the interesting read. I'm sure
many readers here will learn a lot from it- and
that's the point.
J!m
_________________
"Speed's just a question of money. How fast you
'wanna go?"
07-18-2005, 02:37 PM
#2
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
this is all very interesting. I guess my personal conclusion is that the best case is to have a great paint, like MB's nanopaint, and top it off with several (3-4) layers of good synthetic polymer was like Wolfgangs.. which is exactly what I did.
07-22-2005, 07:50 PM
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It is not BS, in single stage paints that are already dried up and cracked and oxidized, the polishing oils help revive the paint, they also help with the actual polishing process. On modern paints, the oil don't do much, but provide lubrication. For Mercedes Ceramiclear clear coats, it is recommended to use Menzerna products, as they have a few exclusive polishs for the Ceramiclear coats. Menzernna is used by practically all of the OEM automotive manufactures. I like Meguiars products, but don't typically favorize there polishs, mostly just there detailer line!
