How to use a high-speed buffer
11-23-2007, 09:31 AM
#26
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'84 380 SL/ '02 XK8
I thought to update this very useful thread-
Rotary Polisher (HSR):
A high-speed rotary polishing machine (Porter-Cable 7428, a Makita, DeWalt, Metabo, Hitachi, etc, which are all fine machines) that have a direct-drive with selectable speed control that maintains a constant speed under varying loads conditions.
Used mainly by body repair / paint shops or professional or very experienced detailers due to its ability to both quickly and efficiently rectify more serious paint film surface imperfections; paint renovation / correction. Using a Velcro baking plate, foam pads of varying coarseness and an abrasive compound or polish to remove swirl marks, scratches and paint defects, using their high (revolution) speed and friction heat to enable diminishing abrasive compounds to abrade the paint film surface that require more power /speed than a random orbital buffer can provide.
(See also Section 13 HS Rotary Polisher)
Safety hazards - always remember that you are using a power tool that must be given the respect it deserves. As with running any power tool, read the manual and understand and its limits and potential dangers that could result by using it. Never forget for a moment that given the right conditions, it could kick back and jump out of your hands. Always wear safety glasses and hearing protection. Also, polishing compounds often contain silicates that become airborne in the polishing process, inhaled they could represent real health concerns. Read the safety data sheets and follow safety directions. Personally, I almost always wear glasses, hearing protection, a quality dust filter or mask and a buffing apron when buffing.
Prime Wire & Cable Duplex GFCI (Ground Fault Indicator) Junction Box with 6-Ft. Cord, Model# GF200806 Portable GFCI duplex receptacle detects power leaks and shuts off electricity in less than a second to prevent shock. Test and reset buttons Tough jobsite box with 6-ft. 12/3 SJTW power cord UL listed, meets OSHA standards.
Prime Wire & Cable 50-Ft extension 12/3 Neon Power Cord — Blue, Model# NS514830
Bright NEON extension cord stands out for easy identification. 12 Gauge, SJTW, 3 prong cord features super-flexible vinyl jacket with a cold temperature rating of -31°F. LIGHTED connector indicates when power is on. Cord is water and flame resistant and rated at 15 amps, 125V, 1875 watts, UL listed and meets OSHA standards – Northern Tool Co - http://www.northerntool.com
Rotary common mistakes and usage tips -
1.Nearly every rotary on the market today uses a 5/8 - inch / 11pi arbour spindle for backing plates. I would recommend getting a hook and loop (Velcro™) backing plate Clean your pads before you use them, or start out with a new pad; use a soft toothbrush for foam, and a spur for wool. As a general rule, the more aggressive the polish, the more often you'll need to clean out your pads. I clean out my pad after every panel when compounding.
2.Diminishing abrasives- you need to allow the abrasives to break down (become progressively smaller) to create a great finish or you may impart surface marring, holograms or worse. When a polish "flashes" from a liquid paste to a light semi-dry haze; its colour changes from the polish colour to almost transparent; the polish has then broken down and is ready for removal. It is important to know when a polish has broken down because if you take it too far you (dry polishing) will re-introduce surface marring. Conversely if you don’t work diminishing abrasives sufficiently they will cause surface marring; this is due to the size of the abrasive and its cutting ability, once an abrasive has broken down it becomes very fine and will burnish the surface as opposed to cutting it
3.Ensure a ‘wet’ polishing film is always present between your pad and the surface. Swirls are usually caused by using an aggressive polish without breaking down the diminishing abrasives properly, or you may have used too much polish or it may have dried. To remove spritz the pad with distilled water (un-primed pads can cause marring) do not add further polish) and re-polish using the polish left on the pad.
4.Edge (spin off) – a light sensitive approach is essential, using only the weight of the machine, on vertical panels just enough pressure to maintain contact with the surface (without applied pressure) tilt the contact edge of the pad a few degrees so that only the leading edge of the pad is in contact with the paint surface. A smaller pad surface contact area will increase friction heat so adjust machine speed accordingly
5Knowing when a polish is fully broken down comes with experience but a good yard stick is when the polish has gone clear and is very easy to wipe off. Holograms or micro marring are again imparted due to polish that hasn’t been properly broken down or too high speeds. Following the advice above or below should cure these.
6.‘Buffer hop’ is when the rotary jumps across the paints surface usually due to insufficient polish/lubrication and as the foam pad grips the paint it jumps. Try spreading the polish more evenly across the pad, add more polish, distilled water or quick detailer (QD) This can also be caused by a bogged down pad – clean / spur / replace pads often.
7.For the neophyte user I would suggest starting out by using a smaller pad, 6.5 – inch I have even found 4- inch pads to be very useful for polishing small tight spaces and smaller panels.
8.High RPM i.e. >1700 will cause high surface temperatures (should be limited to 1000F / 300 C)
9.1150F / 450 C < will damage clear coat to the point were it requires repainting.
10.The HS Rotary requires no more pressure than that required to ‘hold’ it on the paint surface
11.Always tape pinstripes; It doesn't take much to wipe them right off the paint, or thin them out
12.Inspect your work under full sun (or use a 3M Sun Gun®) Holograms, fine marring hooks, etc. are very difficult to see under man made light. There's nothing more frustrating than having to strip off your LSP and re-do.
13.Remove all polish residue and oils before applying your LSP. This is a general rule of thumb for best results across all product lines, and you will notice an overall improvement in the clarity, gloss, and overall 'look' of your finish.
14.If you're new to rotary polishing start off by only using finishing pads and Do Not exceed
1500 RPM < faster is not better and it may cause you problems. Let the rotary do the work, you'll be surprised at what you can correct with a finishing pad and a mildly abrasive polish.
15.When you shut down the machine never let the pad stop on the surface. Bring the machine to the closest edge of the panel and slowly let it roll off with an angle facing inward to the panel, this will help prevent marring.
16.One of the biggest problems when using a rotary is splatter. Splatter: Ok not always a mistake, however when using highly lubricated polishes splatter is a sign that you’ve used too much polish or you have cranked the speed up to too fast, too soon. No matter how much you try and avoid it you’re still going to see it. Wear old clothes when buffing and cover areas you don’t want covered in splatter. Mask off trim with blue painter’s tape if necessary and cover windshields or other vehicle parts with towels. Be careful around mouldings, antennas (aerial’s to us Brits ) and other trim pieces
Using a Sliding Scale 600-900-1200 rpm- commence by setting the speed to 600 rpm, then adjust to 900rpm culminating at 1200rpm then descend to 900rpm and finish at 600rpm; linear speed should be 2 – 3 feet per second (FPS) 1200 rpm is where most of the paint surface defects will be removed. There probably will be some polishing defects (holograms, etc) by descending the sliding scale (1200-900-600rpm) you will remove these and any other minor defects
(See also Compounding / Polishing)
Bi directional polishing - if you are polishing in a Left – Right pattern with the most abrasive foam pad / polish or compound combination then polish in a Top – Bottom pattern with the lesser abrasive foam pad / polish combination, once all your lines are opposite then you know you have completely covered the area.
Rotary Polisher (HSR):
A high-speed rotary polishing machine (Porter-Cable 7428, a Makita, DeWalt, Metabo, Hitachi, etc, which are all fine machines) that have a direct-drive with selectable speed control that maintains a constant speed under varying loads conditions.
Used mainly by body repair / paint shops or professional or very experienced detailers due to its ability to both quickly and efficiently rectify more serious paint film surface imperfections; paint renovation / correction. Using a Velcro baking plate, foam pads of varying coarseness and an abrasive compound or polish to remove swirl marks, scratches and paint defects, using their high (revolution) speed and friction heat to enable diminishing abrasive compounds to abrade the paint film surface that require more power /speed than a random orbital buffer can provide.
(See also Section 13 HS Rotary Polisher)
Safety hazards - always remember that you are using a power tool that must be given the respect it deserves. As with running any power tool, read the manual and understand and its limits and potential dangers that could result by using it. Never forget for a moment that given the right conditions, it could kick back and jump out of your hands. Always wear safety glasses and hearing protection. Also, polishing compounds often contain silicates that become airborne in the polishing process, inhaled they could represent real health concerns. Read the safety data sheets and follow safety directions. Personally, I almost always wear glasses, hearing protection, a quality dust filter or mask and a buffing apron when buffing.
Prime Wire & Cable Duplex GFCI (Ground Fault Indicator) Junction Box with 6-Ft. Cord, Model# GF200806 Portable GFCI duplex receptacle detects power leaks and shuts off electricity in less than a second to prevent shock. Test and reset buttons Tough jobsite box with 6-ft. 12/3 SJTW power cord UL listed, meets OSHA standards.
Prime Wire & Cable 50-Ft extension 12/3 Neon Power Cord — Blue, Model# NS514830
Bright NEON extension cord stands out for easy identification. 12 Gauge, SJTW, 3 prong cord features super-flexible vinyl jacket with a cold temperature rating of -31°F. LIGHTED connector indicates when power is on. Cord is water and flame resistant and rated at 15 amps, 125V, 1875 watts, UL listed and meets OSHA standards – Northern Tool Co - http://www.northerntool.com
Rotary common mistakes and usage tips -
1.Nearly every rotary on the market today uses a 5/8 - inch / 11pi arbour spindle for backing plates. I would recommend getting a hook and loop (Velcro™) backing plate Clean your pads before you use them, or start out with a new pad; use a soft toothbrush for foam, and a spur for wool. As a general rule, the more aggressive the polish, the more often you'll need to clean out your pads. I clean out my pad after every panel when compounding.
2.Diminishing abrasives- you need to allow the abrasives to break down (become progressively smaller) to create a great finish or you may impart surface marring, holograms or worse. When a polish "flashes" from a liquid paste to a light semi-dry haze; its colour changes from the polish colour to almost transparent; the polish has then broken down and is ready for removal. It is important to know when a polish has broken down because if you take it too far you (dry polishing) will re-introduce surface marring. Conversely if you don’t work diminishing abrasives sufficiently they will cause surface marring; this is due to the size of the abrasive and its cutting ability, once an abrasive has broken down it becomes very fine and will burnish the surface as opposed to cutting it
3.Ensure a ‘wet’ polishing film is always present between your pad and the surface. Swirls are usually caused by using an aggressive polish without breaking down the diminishing abrasives properly, or you may have used too much polish or it may have dried. To remove spritz the pad with distilled water (un-primed pads can cause marring) do not add further polish) and re-polish using the polish left on the pad.
4.Edge (spin off) – a light sensitive approach is essential, using only the weight of the machine, on vertical panels just enough pressure to maintain contact with the surface (without applied pressure) tilt the contact edge of the pad a few degrees so that only the leading edge of the pad is in contact with the paint surface. A smaller pad surface contact area will increase friction heat so adjust machine speed accordingly
5Knowing when a polish is fully broken down comes with experience but a good yard stick is when the polish has gone clear and is very easy to wipe off. Holograms or micro marring are again imparted due to polish that hasn’t been properly broken down or too high speeds. Following the advice above or below should cure these.
6.‘Buffer hop’ is when the rotary jumps across the paints surface usually due to insufficient polish/lubrication and as the foam pad grips the paint it jumps. Try spreading the polish more evenly across the pad, add more polish, distilled water or quick detailer (QD) This can also be caused by a bogged down pad – clean / spur / replace pads often.
7.For the neophyte user I would suggest starting out by using a smaller pad, 6.5 – inch I have even found 4- inch pads to be very useful for polishing small tight spaces and smaller panels.
8.High RPM i.e. >1700 will cause high surface temperatures (should be limited to 1000F / 300 C)
9.1150F / 450 C < will damage clear coat to the point were it requires repainting.
10.The HS Rotary requires no more pressure than that required to ‘hold’ it on the paint surface
11.Always tape pinstripes; It doesn't take much to wipe them right off the paint, or thin them out
12.Inspect your work under full sun (or use a 3M Sun Gun®) Holograms, fine marring hooks, etc. are very difficult to see under man made light. There's nothing more frustrating than having to strip off your LSP and re-do.
13.Remove all polish residue and oils before applying your LSP. This is a general rule of thumb for best results across all product lines, and you will notice an overall improvement in the clarity, gloss, and overall 'look' of your finish.
14.If you're new to rotary polishing start off by only using finishing pads and Do Not exceed
1500 RPM < faster is not better and it may cause you problems. Let the rotary do the work, you'll be surprised at what you can correct with a finishing pad and a mildly abrasive polish.
15.When you shut down the machine never let the pad stop on the surface. Bring the machine to the closest edge of the panel and slowly let it roll off with an angle facing inward to the panel, this will help prevent marring.
16.One of the biggest problems when using a rotary is splatter. Splatter: Ok not always a mistake, however when using highly lubricated polishes splatter is a sign that you’ve used too much polish or you have cranked the speed up to too fast, too soon. No matter how much you try and avoid it you’re still going to see it. Wear old clothes when buffing and cover areas you don’t want covered in splatter. Mask off trim with blue painter’s tape if necessary and cover windshields or other vehicle parts with towels. Be careful around mouldings, antennas (aerial’s to us Brits ) and other trim pieces
Using a Sliding Scale 600-900-1200 rpm- commence by setting the speed to 600 rpm, then adjust to 900rpm culminating at 1200rpm then descend to 900rpm and finish at 600rpm; linear speed should be 2 – 3 feet per second (FPS) 1200 rpm is where most of the paint surface defects will be removed. There probably will be some polishing defects (holograms, etc) by descending the sliding scale (1200-900-600rpm) you will remove these and any other minor defects
(See also Compounding / Polishing)
Bi directional polishing - if you are polishing in a Left – Right pattern with the most abrasive foam pad / polish or compound combination then polish in a Top – Bottom pattern with the lesser abrasive foam pad / polish combination, once all your lines are opposite then you know you have completely covered the area.
TOGWT ™ Copyright © 2002-2007. Jon Miller, all rights reserved
02-24-2008, 04:08 PM
#28
Junior Member
O.K., I've been detailing for 23 years now. I pretty much just look after car collections for a few guys at this point. Plenty of Pebble Beach 1st, 2nd, and 3rd in class ribbons for my clients, so I'm pretty confident I know what I'm doing.
I am not a painter, bodyman, or chemist, but I have to take issue with these numbers.
Are you saying that you can buff automotive paint and heat it safely to 1000 degrees fahrenhiet? I simply cannot believe that any paint would withstand anything approaching half that hot. Maybe I'm wrong, but boy does that seem awfully hot. I'm not one to believe that heat is what I'm looking for to polish paint anyway. I prefer true and predictable abrasives be it colorsanding paper, rubbing compounds, or fine polishes. Heating up paint is asking for trouble in a huge way IMHO.
Much of the info in this thread is reasonably correct aside from that. I use a rotary (sometimes called a high-speed) buffer for most of the polishing I do. I keep a Porter-Cable orbital around for the last of the final polishing on some cars. Once in awhile I get something that I just have a heckuva time getting the very last of the swirls out of, and a trip around the car with the orbital, using a very, very fine polish (Griots #3 comes to mind) will often do the trick.
I cannot recommend using an orbital for any actual polishing above and beyond that though. If you try to do any serious cutting with an orbital, you are going to end up with a hazy effect when you're done.
As far as rotary buffing goes, I have always had the best luck with 3M stuff. The Perfect-it II Rubbing compound, and the Finesse-it II finishing material are both hard to beat to get things in the ballpark. If I need a more agressive polish than the Perfect-it II, I'd rather just use colorsanding paper to clear the problem and buff it from there. Perfect-it II has almost always been able to remove sanding scratches for me, and I just work my way down to finer and finer polishes from there. After the sanding and other issues are handled, I start with the Finesse-it II. Usually I'll go with one trip on the same type of white wool pad cutting pad I used with the compound, then another trip with a yellow wool polishing pad. For both my white and yellow wool pads, I prefer the double-sided ones with the metal screwhole in the middle. Be sure to use an adapter if necessary to keep the shank from sticking too far through as you're only working with a few threads here. from there, another trip with the Finesse-it II with a gray foam pad at low to medium speeds. Now we should be starting to get close. Still plenty of wheelmarks to get rid of, but they should be light ones. Most of the 3M stuff has very little filler in it. I hate fillers in my polishes. I want that paint looking 98% without anything at all on it. No oily glazes, no waxes, no fillers. Just the pure, clean painted surface. You can cover up almost any marginal buffing job with fillers, glazes, and waxes, but once they start to wash away, you're left with a crappy polish job, swirlmarks, or haze. I will go as far as to wipe the paint down with mineral spirits and let it dry completely before a look at it in bright sunlight, flourescent, and normal lighting to ensure everything looks great. Flourescent lights, especially at night when your eyes are adjusted for it, will really show off any scratches or sanding marks you may have missed while buffing the car out during the day. Sunlight will hide some scratches, but show all of your buffer/swirlmarks. It's amazing how different light shows different problems. If you can get it so it looks great under all of those lighting options, you're gonna be happy.
Now back to the last couple of trips to get the last of the buffermarks out. Different paint and colors will require different techniques. Sometimes, a hand-rub with an extremely fine polish will work, sometimes, a little corn-starch mixed with a show-glaze like Meguiars #7 will do it. A final trip with an orbital and Griots #3 can work too. I will usually take a clean gray foam pad, and use some 3M foam pad glaze and swirl remover, or sometimes that with a little bit of the 3M Finesse-it II mixed in with it. Maybe a 30% Finesse-it with a 70% Foam pad glaze. The only problem is that the foam pad glaze has some filler in it. It does have some actual polish as well, but there's enough filler in there to fool you into thinking you've done a great job if you're not careful. Slow and deliberate is the best way to describe the process I guess.
Unlike some previous posters on this thread, I am not fond of the polishes that supposedly "break down as you polish". I've never had supreme results with these. I'm not saying that others have not had great results, but they've never seemed to work well for me, and believe me, I've tried 'em nine ways from Sunday. You think I like paying $120+ per gallon for my precious 3M polishes? Heck no! But for the last 20 years, for me, they've pretty much been the only game in town. Maybe it's just that I know exactly how they're going to behave for me, and I know how to get from point A to point B with them. My clients pay me for my time, and they expect an excellent result. I'm not production oriented, and the cost of the actual materials I use in proportion to what I charge is minimal anyway, so I use what gets the job done for me, regardless of price.
Gar
biggar@***.net
Last edited by BigGar; 02-24-2008 at 04:11 PM.
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COTA F1 (07-01-2020)
10-11-2011, 02:32 AM
#31
Junior Member
Its funny, after all these recomendations from folks, has anyone mentioned probably the most important tool you need before you do any buffing no matter what type machine you use.
A PAINT DEPTH GUAGE FOLKS, if you do this for a living as I do. You need to know what you are removing , or know how much has been removed allready, after all you are dealing with High Dollar vehicles, at least in my case anyways. For Corvettes and other composite vehicles you need a composite depth guage and they are not cheap.
I agree with some comments , but disagree with alot, as mentioned by BIGAR, highest speed you will use on a rotory is 1500rpm, the professional machines will go down to 300 rpms, if your going above 1500, get out and colorsand instead.
You never buff contaniments off paint, you always claybar, if you want to remove previous waxes, you use a IPA solution according to what the specific job calls for, there are formulas to mixing IPA %'s so it does not soften the clear coat.
DA polishers are so much more safe , and if you know what you are doing, you can get the job done without any chance of burning any clear or paint. Technique and product.
I have personally have found on MB vehicles I prefer Menzerna products, after all they were specifically designed for MB. We could spend a year discussing what products to use, and spend another year reading why others prefer other products, so I wont get into that in detail.
Feel free to visit my signature website and browse some clients vehicles, so I proud myself on knowing what Im doing (not being arrogant, just saying), its not what you say you can do , its what the client says when they pick up there vehicle. And usually there eyes bug out with pleasure
.
Happy Buffing
A PAINT DEPTH GUAGE FOLKS, if you do this for a living as I do. You need to know what you are removing , or know how much has been removed allready, after all you are dealing with High Dollar vehicles, at least in my case anyways. For Corvettes and other composite vehicles you need a composite depth guage and they are not cheap.
I agree with some comments , but disagree with alot, as mentioned by BIGAR, highest speed you will use on a rotory is 1500rpm, the professional machines will go down to 300 rpms, if your going above 1500, get out and colorsand instead.
You never buff contaniments off paint, you always claybar, if you want to remove previous waxes, you use a IPA solution according to what the specific job calls for, there are formulas to mixing IPA %'s so it does not soften the clear coat.
DA polishers are so much more safe , and if you know what you are doing, you can get the job done without any chance of burning any clear or paint. Technique and product.
I have personally have found on MB vehicles I prefer Menzerna products, after all they were specifically designed for MB. We could spend a year discussing what products to use, and spend another year reading why others prefer other products, so I wont get into that in detail.
Feel free to visit my signature website and browse some clients vehicles, so I proud myself on knowing what Im doing (not being arrogant, just saying), its not what you say you can do , its what the client says when they pick up there vehicle. And usually there eyes bug out with pleasure
.Happy Buffing
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Sicario (05-05-2020)
03-12-2013, 03:19 PM
#32
Super Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach FL/ Hampstead, London, England
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'84 380 SL/ '02 XK8
[High RPM i.e. >1700 will cause high surface temperatures (should be limited to 1000F / 300 C)] 100.0F
[1150F / 450 C < will damage clear coat to the point were it requires repainting] 115.0F
To effectively polish the paint on your car and remove swirls, embedded contaminants and oxidation you need to have a buffer than can spin a pad at the proper speed to generate heat. The heat softens the paint so that you can use less aggressive polish than you would normally use by hand or orbital.
Polishes and compounds do not need heat per se for the abrasives to polish a surface, wither they be diminishing or non-diminishing abrasive, they require both pressure and friction.
[1150F / 450 C < will damage clear coat to the point were it requires repainting] 115.0F
To effectively polish the paint on your car and remove swirls, embedded contaminants and oxidation you need to have a buffer than can spin a pad at the proper speed to generate heat. The heat softens the paint so that you can use less aggressive polish than you would normally use by hand or orbital.
Polishes and compounds do not need heat per se for the abrasives to polish a surface, wither they be diminishing or non-diminishing abrasive, they require both pressure and friction.
Last edited by TOGWT; 03-12-2013 at 03:29 PM.
03-12-2013, 03:41 PM
#33
Junior Member
The numbers 100 F and 115 F seem more reasonable. I think you're quite safe getting the paint warmer than that but like I said before, I'm not looking to heat up and soften the paint. I want proper abrasives to do the job. Of course the friction causes heat.
I've found in recent years (my previous post is 5 years old now!) that there are some much better products and procedures available for high speed polishing. It's still not for amateurs but the new 3M 1-2-3 system is excellent, and I use those three products along with Meguiars 105 and 205 on occasion. Two sided wool pads for heavy cutting duties. White or yellow foam pads following that, with the same #1 compound. Grey foam pads in a very slow and complete pass with #2, and occasionally an additional pass with a blue foam pad and #3. The car needs to be cleaned between the #1 and #2 applications to remove traces of the more abrasive #1 polish.
I have also found something that I think is better than clay. I'm still testing it out, but the new Nanoskin wash mitts do a very credible job of removing paint contaminants. More later if anyone is reading this thread.
Gar
I've found in recent years (my previous post is 5 years old now!) that there are some much better products and procedures available for high speed polishing. It's still not for amateurs but the new 3M 1-2-3 system is excellent, and I use those three products along with Meguiars 105 and 205 on occasion. Two sided wool pads for heavy cutting duties. White or yellow foam pads following that, with the same #1 compound. Grey foam pads in a very slow and complete pass with #2, and occasionally an additional pass with a blue foam pad and #3. The car needs to be cleaned between the #1 and #2 applications to remove traces of the more abrasive #1 polish.
I have also found something that I think is better than clay. I'm still testing it out, but the new Nanoskin wash mitts do a very credible job of removing paint contaminants. More later if anyone is reading this thread.
Gar
