Jon@BMS

Hey guys,

We've recently worked up a version of our popular JB Diesel quick install tuner for the Mercedes lineup. Turns out you guys share a lot of your electronics with BMW, which we've been tuning for years, so it was an easy conversion.

The JBD is a quick install tuner (takes only a min to install or remove), inexpensive @ $279, and really wakes the car up. We're doing some longer term road testing now on a 2013 E350 diesel and hope to post up some dyno charts and addl info in the coming weeks. On the VBOX we were able to get the 0-60 from 7.3s stock down to a traction limited 6.9s tuned with the default 65% setting. Can't wait to see what it does at 100%.

torquey

Would this work on a Jeep Grand Cherokee with the MB 3.0 L CRD? I'm really interested in the numbers you're getting. Thanks.

Jon@BMS

I have not looked at one but will be able to tell by a few photos. Drop me a note and maybe you can help us test it out.

Jon@BMS

Was able to get a few dyno tests done. Nice gains as expected. The diesels don't have a tach pickup so our dynojet doesn't record torque figures for them. Keeping the car from downshifting is also a pita. So settled on stomping the gas in 4th and letting it shift to 5th for consistency from run to run.

DubVBenz

Can you describe what the box is actually doing? There's a bunch of these things floating around , and they all seem to just modify the injector duration, is that the case with this box?

Jon@BMS

Basically does the same thing. That is the only viable way to add extra power to a turbo diesel motor given boost is generally already maxed out with the factory tune.

AV1

Terry can you elaborate further, I've been researching these and some companies are now claiming to have 'modules' rather than 'boxes' which provide a boost control/increase and further fuel injecting timing changes as well as the fuel rail pressure increase - is this the case ?? Or is it all hype ??

Also the 2.1 ltr CDI engine exists in many different states of tune with power levels varying significantly, so how can it be maxed out if it were fitted in a particular vehicle whos tune is lower than a higher tune in another vehicle model ?? TIA

Jon@BMS

Basically nonsense regarding the boost increase. The attenuate the MAP sensor and them market that as also increasing boost pressure. But, generally speaking attenuating the MAP sensor does not actually increase boost pressure on these vehicles. It does on others.

In terms of the fueling I'm sure with a flash tune more fuel can be added beyond what we add with the JBD. We're going after the inexpensive and quick install/removal market.

AV1

Thank you for the response and info Terry

Is your JBD system compatible with or otherwise what do you reccomend for the MB 2.1ltr blue efficiency diesel engine ? TIA.

Jon@BMS

Yes should be fully compatible.

AV1

Good news

I already have one tuning option on the way, if that dosn't end up doing the job properly I may look further into acquiring and trying your tune

T.H.Carrera

Terry : does this work with 2012 s350 bluetec ? it has the upgraded engine that has new headers and new turbo. it makes more power then the one in e350.

Thanks

Jon@BMS

Yes, from our testing it should be compatible with all models that use the same electronics.

Nuke

Thats why nobody should buy this product. Its little more than the old fashioned "intake temperature resistor" to trick the ECM into thinking the air is more dense than it actually is.

Altering injector duration causes very high EGTs that can damage the engine since boost is not increased to compensate for the extra fuel.

Jon@BMS

No offense intended but you are completely wrong. Increasing the injector duty cycle increases the amount of fuel injected without changing the injection timing, and provides a substantial power increase with almost no reliability trade off. Presuming you don't overdo it and keep EGTs to reasonable levels. Increasing boost also increases EGT levels and has some other trade offs. Not to mention the compressor is undersized and essentially maxed out from the factory. Generally speaking the low hanging fruit (e.g. easy horsepower gains) are on the fueling side. Then if you want every last horsepower you might squeeze a little more boost out if the compressor is sized enough to allow it. Piggybacks claiming to increase boost by adding only one additional "boost" sensor signal (for 2 sensors total including common rail) do not actually increase boost on this platform.

The resistor scam you're talking about is a scam because it does absolutely nothing to improve performance. It does not increase injector duty cycle or boost levels. It simply lightens your wallet. We've tuned over a thousand turbo diesel BMWs using this technique with excellent reliability and power gains. So it's not exactly our first rodeo here.

Nuke

As somebody promoting a specific product, I'm shocked you have no understanding of how it works!
Increasing duration literally means increasing the amount of time the nozzle is open. By definition, you are opening the injector longer in order to inject more fuel which means you're injecting fuel further into the combustion cycle which substantially raises EGTs from having less time to burn all the fuel.

And there is the CYA statement to keep you out of court.

That is false information.
Injecting more fuel requires more air to burn it. By not increasing boost you are forcing the engine to run more rich which drastically increases EGTs and emissions.

That is false information.
They do exactly the same thing your system does, make the engine run more rich.

My uncle has been doing/dealing drugs for most of his 50 year lifespan, that doesn't make what he is doing right either.

Jon@BMS

Thanks for taking the time away from kicking kittens to reply.

If you note the dyno at the top of the thread we're talking about a relatively minor power increase here. And with that comes a very modest EGT increase. We've monitored EGTs and are comfortable with the levels. You are welcome to install one (or one of the 100s of other similar devices out there) and monitor the EGT changes for yourself. The DME itself also monitors EGT and will fault if things get out of control. Common rail boxes for years have been a popular and proven safe method for easy to install diesel power gains provided you don't go crazy with them.

On the IAT resistor scam, it's for petrol cars. The way it "works" is the resistor grounds out the sensor causing the DME to think the incoming air is much colder than it actually is. This causes it to work from a more aggressive part of the advance table. At least it used to years ago. These days DMEs are smart enough to cross reference coolant temp, oil temp, ambient temp, etc, on cold start and throw a fault if the air intake temp doesn't match up.

Nuke

I never said it wasn't.

The factory settings already have EGTs at the maximum safe level.
An increase of even 250*f brings EGTs from a safe 1250*f to a piston melting 1500*f. Without increasing boost pressure to cool the combustion back to a safe level, you are causing cumulative engine damage every time the increased power level is used.
Have you ever pulled the head from an engine that has had one of your duration increasing boxes installed? The pistons show clear burn marks outside the piston bowl which means injection duration is outside the safe range and is actually working as a flamethrower on the piston bowl lip.

Exactly what are your "comfortable levels"?

That is not possible. There is no EGT sensor installed with your system or by Mercedes. The engine ECM can calculate EGTs based on various temperature sensors and injection rate, but with your system altering that rate it is no longer accurate.

And cocaine has been popular and safe with recreational drug users for decades, that doesn't mean its harmless.

Incorrect. It works for any EFI system, including diesels.

Also incorrect. I have seen EFI engines think the incoming air is -40*f with an ambient of 75*f and coolant temp of 180*f without throwing a code. They simply fogged the shop and fouled the cat with excessive fuel.

Jon@BMS

You're clearly just a melodramatic guy (or maybe a troll?) with the various drug and piston melting references. You may disagree with adding fuel without raising boost, it's a fair (although moot) point, but there is no need for the theatrics. Save them for threads with people doubling the factory power output where physical engine damage is a real possibility.

I don't have the EGT data in front of me currently but it was collected from a BMW X5D which runs a similar setup. EGT increases were less than 50F @ 40whp gains. We also noticed no EGT reduction when increasing boost 1-2psi. There is plenty of safety built in to the system. We've had cars rack up 100k hard miles using this device without issue and as I mentioned previously there are over 1000 of our diesel devices in use over the years. I have NEVER had a report of a melted or damaged piston or any other engine component as result of the JBD use. The factory tuning provided is very conservative which is why we can safely and easily increase power levels with minimal tuning changes.

On the IAT sensor, I know all BMWs newer than 2006 will fault and go limp with it. Can't speak for other models but my point is that it is neither a viable or effective tuning method for your turbo diesel. Comparing a programmed microcontroller solution running @ 8mhz to an eBay resistor scam is a fairly ridiculous comparison to start with.

kurtismayfield

Sorry Terry, So far not a very convincing performance. Right up front here let me say I am not a mechanic or an auto engineer. I am a hobbyist like most all on this forum. You sound like a salesman/marketer. I say that because you do not present the scientific evidence to support your claims. You smear/blur facts in an attempt to gloss over your ignorance of not knowing the answer to the questions. What you deny in one statement later serves as basis for an answer later in your diatribe. Something just doesn't feel right. Hate to say it but it seems like a stab at some quick cash.

You claim that other makes have not suffered any consequences from your using your product, wiithout presenting any technical evidence to substantiate the claims. This will not convince those of us without experience in the implied vehicle(s). And, so far has not drawn out any favorable support from the forum members who have driven the implied vehicle(s).

To convince people to accept and use your product you must show that the benefit of purchasing your product exceeds the risks(finanicial and other) associated with using your product. Perhaps you should have one of your technical people with the papers and the numbers etc. in front of them take the batters box. At the moment, it appears that no one is buying it!

Just noticed the pun in the last line on the re-read before submitting. I'll leave in as it is so appropo!

Jon@BMS

Judging by the meager views to this thread I'd say this is a relatively "dead" forum so you're not likely to get a lively discussion here representing multiple points of view. You might have better luck on one of the BMW diesel forums like this one: http://www.e90post.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=377

My original intention with this thread was to let MB owners know the very popular JBD, which has been successfully used on over a thousand BMW turbo diesels, is compatible and available as a tuning option for them. And to convey that the power gains are on the order of 10% or so with the conservative default settings.

I have no intention of trying to educate potential customers on how common rail boxes work other than to point out the JBD is only one of many different brands of similar products that are widely in use around the globe. I also have no intention of trying to convince anyone that a modest 10% bump in power is "safe" or "for them". Other than to say we've provided almost double that gain in other applications for years without issue.

On the technical aspects of how the JBD works, I think I've addressed any questions asked even though that is outside the scope of this topic. It was mentioned that adding more fuel results in a higher EGT, which is true. We've seen changes on the order of 50F in similar applications at this power gain. A higher EGT means more heat to the turbine which naturally results in a little more boost all else being equal. The higher boost in turn serves to lean out the air/fuel mixture reducing EGT. Obviously this system balances itself. In practice we've found manually forcing boost 1-2psi higher resulted in no significant EGT change. So one of my points above was not to get too caught up in the theory. This is not a 1000hp turbo diesel motor and we're talking about relatively minor changes as a percentage of overall power output.

Beyond that if you have any additional questions or concerns feel free to email me. Due to lower traffic I don't believe we'll be sponsoring this forum much longer but always happy to help via email or on other forums we participate in.

GLD

All,

I stumbled across this thread doing research on GL320's. I can't tell you how happy I am to see that the JBD is now available for MB vehicles. Having owned VW and BMW diesels, the biggest thing holding be back from a ML or GL CDI was the relative lack of power compared with the other V6 diesels out there. I have owned most and driven them all. The power difference is very noticeable.

Moreover, I have read all of the articles and posts bashing "tuning boxes" on various forums. They are probably mostly correct... From what I have been able to ascertain, however, Burger does it right and are fairly conservative with their approach. Their products have proven to be very reliable and effective. Based on my experience, they stand behind their product and customers are generally very happy. Clearly, they don't have much MB experience, but I trust they will get it right.

kurtismayfield

Not with this attitude:





One interpretation: I don't care about you or what you might have invested in your vehicle. I just want your money.

Thank you Terry for being honest enough to admit it in circuitous terms.



By the way, we wanted to know how your common rail box worked, and what sets your box apart from the others. If you don't intend to educate folks, how do you intend for them to determine whether your product is a good product and the right one for them? Just take your word for it??



Again, we asked for help in understanding your tuning box, you demonstrated that is of no interest to you or your company and you are wondering why your thread has low to no traffic!!

GLD

Everyone has their own opinion. I was merely offering my experience with the company.

My take on all this is that the OP was honest and direct but perhaps not as fluent as he/she should have been regarding the injector duration/timing question.

This really went down hill when a member made comments insinuating no one should buy these devices because they are all evil, ineffective, and will likely lead to an immediate and complete meltdown.

Clearly, I am being dramatic here but it appears that members that have no use or interest in the product began their own crusade to disparage the product. Further, the comments were made based on assumptions.

Seems that every forum has folks looking to pick a fight. The opinion on "tuning boxes" in general is very nearly unanimously unfavorable. Do actual research, however, and you will find that this is one reasonable and reliable solution for increasing power in BMW diesels. How does it work in a MB? Well, we shall see.

kurtismayfield

GLD,
Have been researching the Carlsson, Kleeman and Burger. If I can't get any info from one of their reps, what the hell. Did not dump on the company, just having trouble understanding why they sponsor with such a lousy/lazy rep!