JBD tuner for MB
#1
JBD tuner for MB
Hey guys,
We've recently worked up a version of our popular JB Diesel quick install tuner for the Mercedes lineup. Turns out you guys share a lot of your electronics with BMW, which we've been tuning for years, so it was an easy conversion.
The JBD is a quick install tuner (takes only a min to install or remove), inexpensive @ $279, and really wakes the car up. We're doing some longer term road testing now on a 2013 E350 diesel and hope to post up some dyno charts and addl info in the coming weeks. On the VBOX we were able to get the 0-60 from 7.3s stock down to a traction limited 6.9s tuned with the default 65% setting. Can't wait to see what it does at 100%.
We've recently worked up a version of our popular JB Diesel quick install tuner for the Mercedes lineup. Turns out you guys share a lot of your electronics with BMW, which we've been tuning for years, so it was an easy conversion.
The JBD is a quick install tuner (takes only a min to install or remove), inexpensive @ $279, and really wakes the car up. We're doing some longer term road testing now on a 2013 E350 diesel and hope to post up some dyno charts and addl info in the coming weeks. On the VBOX we were able to get the 0-60 from 7.3s stock down to a traction limited 6.9s tuned with the default 65% setting. Can't wait to see what it does at 100%.
#4
Was able to get a few dyno tests done. Nice gains as expected. The diesels don't have a tach pickup so our dynojet doesn't record torque figures for them. Keeping the car from downshifting is also a pita. So settled on stomping the gas in 4th and letting it shift to 5th for consistency from run to run.
#5
MBWorld Fanatic!
Can you describe what the box is actually doing? There's a bunch of these things floating around , and they all seem to just modify the injector duration, is that the case with this box?
#6
Basically does the same thing. That is the only viable way to add extra power to a turbo diesel motor given boost is generally already maxed out with the factory tune.
#7
MBWorld Fanatic!
Also the 2.1 ltr CDI engine exists in many different states of tune with power levels varying significantly, so how can it be maxed out if it were fitted in a particular vehicle whos tune is lower than a higher tune in another vehicle model ?? TIA
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#8
Terry can you elaborate further, I've been researching these and some companies are now claiming to have 'modules' rather than 'boxes' which provide a boost control/increase and further fuel injecting timing changes as well as the fuel rail pressure increase - is this the case ?? Or is it all hype ??
Also the 2.1 ltr CDI engine exists in many different states of tune with power levels varying significantly, so how can it be maxed out if it were fitted in a particular vehicle whos tune is lower than a higher tune in another vehicle model ?? TIA
Also the 2.1 ltr CDI engine exists in many different states of tune with power levels varying significantly, so how can it be maxed out if it were fitted in a particular vehicle whos tune is lower than a higher tune in another vehicle model ?? TIA
In terms of the fueling I'm sure with a flash tune more fuel can be added beyond what we add with the JBD. We're going after the inexpensive and quick install/removal market.
#9
MBWorld Fanatic!
Basically nonsense regarding the boost increase. The attenuate the MAP sensor and them market that as also increasing boost pressure. But, generally speaking attenuating the MAP sensor does not actually increase boost pressure on these vehicles. It does on others.
In terms of the fueling I'm sure with a flash tune more fuel can be added beyond what we add with the JBD. We're going after the inexpensive and quick install/removal market.
In terms of the fueling I'm sure with a flash tune more fuel can be added beyond what we add with the JBD. We're going after the inexpensive and quick install/removal market.
Is your JBD system compatible with or otherwise what do you reccomend for the MB 2.1ltr blue efficiency diesel engine ? TIA.
#11
MBWorld Fanatic!
#14
Thats why nobody should buy this product. Its little more than the old fashioned "intake temperature resistor" to trick the ECM into thinking the air is more dense than it actually is.
Altering injector duration causes very high EGTs that can damage the engine since boost is not increased to compensate for the extra fuel.
Altering injector duration causes very high EGTs that can damage the engine since boost is not increased to compensate for the extra fuel.
#15
Thats why nobody should buy this product. Its little more than the old fashioned "intake temperature resistor" to trick the ECM into thinking the air is more dense than it actually is.
Altering injector duration causes very high EGTs that can damage the engine since boost is not increased to compensate for the extra fuel.
Altering injector duration causes very high EGTs that can damage the engine since boost is not increased to compensate for the extra fuel.
The resistor scam you're talking about is a scam because it does absolutely nothing to improve performance. It does not increase injector duty cycle or boost levels. It simply lightens your wallet. We've tuned over a thousand turbo diesel BMWs using this technique with excellent reliability and power gains. So it's not exactly our first rodeo here.
Last edited by Jon@BMS; 03-23-2013 at 07:11 PM.
#16
Increasing duration literally means increasing the amount of time the nozzle is open. By definition, you are opening the injector longer in order to inject more fuel which means you're injecting fuel further into the combustion cycle which substantially raises EGTs from having less time to burn all the fuel.
and provides a substantial power increase with almost no reliability trade off. Presuming you don't overdo it and keep EGTs to reasonable levels.
Increasing boost also increases EGT levels and has some other trade offs.
Injecting more fuel requires more air to burn it. By not increasing boost you are forcing the engine to run more rich which drastically increases EGTs and emissions.
The resistor scam you're talking about is a scam because it does absolutely nothing to improve performance.
They do exactly the same thing your system does, make the engine run more rich.
So it's not exactly our first rodeo here.
#17
Thanks for taking the time away from kicking kittens to reply.
If you note the dyno at the top of the thread we're talking about a relatively minor power increase here. And with that comes a very modest EGT increase. We've monitored EGTs and are comfortable with the levels. You are welcome to install one (or one of the 100s of other similar devices out there) and monitor the EGT changes for yourself. The DME itself also monitors EGT and will fault if things get out of control. Common rail boxes for years have been a popular and proven safe method for easy to install diesel power gains provided you don't go crazy with them.
On the IAT resistor scam, it's for petrol cars. The way it "works" is the resistor grounds out the sensor causing the DME to think the incoming air is much colder than it actually is. This causes it to work from a more aggressive part of the advance table. At least it used to years ago. These days DMEs are smart enough to cross reference coolant temp, oil temp, ambient temp, etc, on cold start and throw a fault if the air intake temp doesn't match up.
If you note the dyno at the top of the thread we're talking about a relatively minor power increase here. And with that comes a very modest EGT increase. We've monitored EGTs and are comfortable with the levels. You are welcome to install one (or one of the 100s of other similar devices out there) and monitor the EGT changes for yourself. The DME itself also monitors EGT and will fault if things get out of control. Common rail boxes for years have been a popular and proven safe method for easy to install diesel power gains provided you don't go crazy with them.
On the IAT resistor scam, it's for petrol cars. The way it "works" is the resistor grounds out the sensor causing the DME to think the incoming air is much colder than it actually is. This causes it to work from a more aggressive part of the advance table. At least it used to years ago. These days DMEs are smart enough to cross reference coolant temp, oil temp, ambient temp, etc, on cold start and throw a fault if the air intake temp doesn't match up.
Last edited by Jon@BMS; 03-23-2013 at 10:12 PM.
#18
And with that comes a very modest EGT increase.
An increase of even 250*f brings EGTs from a safe 1250*f to a piston melting 1500*f. Without increasing boost pressure to cool the combustion back to a safe level, you are causing cumulative engine damage every time the increased power level is used.
Have you ever pulled the head from an engine that has had one of your duration increasing boxes installed? The pistons show clear burn marks outside the piston bowl which means injection duration is outside the safe range and is actually working as a flamethrower on the piston bowl lip.
We've monitored EGTs and are comfortable with the levels.
The DME itself also monitors EGT and will fault if things get out of control.
Common rail boxes for years have been a popular and proven safe method for easy to install diesel power gains
On the IAT resistor scam, it's for petrol cars.
These days DMEs are smart enough to cross reference coolant temp, oil temp, ambient temp, etc, on cold start and throw a fault if the air intake temp doesn't match up.
#19
You're clearly just a melodramatic guy (or maybe a troll?) with the various drug and piston melting references. You may disagree with adding fuel without raising boost, it's a fair (although moot) point, but there is no need for the theatrics. Save them for threads with people doubling the factory power output where physical engine damage is a real possibility.
I don't have the EGT data in front of me currently but it was collected from a BMW X5D which runs a similar setup. EGT increases were less than 50F @ 40whp gains. We also noticed no EGT reduction when increasing boost 1-2psi. There is plenty of safety built in to the system. We've had cars rack up 100k hard miles using this device without issue and as I mentioned previously there are over 1000 of our diesel devices in use over the years. I have NEVER had a report of a melted or damaged piston or any other engine component as result of the JBD use. The factory tuning provided is very conservative which is why we can safely and easily increase power levels with minimal tuning changes.
On the IAT sensor, I know all BMWs newer than 2006 will fault and go limp with it. Can't speak for other models but my point is that it is neither a viable or effective tuning method for your turbo diesel. Comparing a programmed microcontroller solution running @ 8mhz to an eBay resistor scam is a fairly ridiculous comparison to start with.
I don't have the EGT data in front of me currently but it was collected from a BMW X5D which runs a similar setup. EGT increases were less than 50F @ 40whp gains. We also noticed no EGT reduction when increasing boost 1-2psi. There is plenty of safety built in to the system. We've had cars rack up 100k hard miles using this device without issue and as I mentioned previously there are over 1000 of our diesel devices in use over the years. I have NEVER had a report of a melted or damaged piston or any other engine component as result of the JBD use. The factory tuning provided is very conservative which is why we can safely and easily increase power levels with minimal tuning changes.
On the IAT sensor, I know all BMWs newer than 2006 will fault and go limp with it. Can't speak for other models but my point is that it is neither a viable or effective tuning method for your turbo diesel. Comparing a programmed microcontroller solution running @ 8mhz to an eBay resistor scam is a fairly ridiculous comparison to start with.
Last edited by Jon@BMS; 03-24-2013 at 01:36 PM.
#20
Member
Sorry Terry, So far not a very convincing performance. Right up front here let me say I am not a mechanic or an auto engineer. I am a hobbyist like most all on this forum. You sound like a salesman/marketer. I say that because you do not present the scientific evidence to support your claims. You smear/blur facts in an attempt to gloss over your ignorance of not knowing the answer to the questions. What you deny in one statement later serves as basis for an answer later in your diatribe. Something just doesn't feel right. Hate to say it but it seems like a stab at some quick cash.
You claim that other makes have not suffered any consequences from your using your product, wiithout presenting any technical evidence to substantiate the claims. This will not convince those of us without experience in the implied vehicle(s). And, so far has not drawn out any favorable support from the forum members who have driven the implied vehicle(s).
To convince people to accept and use your product you must show that the benefit of purchasing your product exceeds the risks(finanicial and other) associated with using your product. Perhaps you should have one of your technical people with the papers and the numbers etc. in front of them take the batters box. At the moment, it appears that no one is buying it!
Just noticed the pun in the last line on the re-read before submitting. I'll leave in as it is so appropo!
You claim that other makes have not suffered any consequences from your using your product, wiithout presenting any technical evidence to substantiate the claims. This will not convince those of us without experience in the implied vehicle(s). And, so far has not drawn out any favorable support from the forum members who have driven the implied vehicle(s).
To convince people to accept and use your product you must show that the benefit of purchasing your product exceeds the risks(finanicial and other) associated with using your product. Perhaps you should have one of your technical people with the papers and the numbers etc. in front of them take the batters box. At the moment, it appears that no one is buying it!
Just noticed the pun in the last line on the re-read before submitting. I'll leave in as it is so appropo!
#21
Sorry Terry, So far not a very convincing performance. Right up front here let me say I am not a mechanic or an auto engineer. I am a hobbyist like most all on this forum. You sound like a salesman/marketer. I say that because you do not present the scientific evidence to support your claims. You smear/blur facts in an attempt to gloss over your ignorance of not knowing the answer to the questions. What you deny in one statement later serves as basis for an answer later in your diatribe. Something just doesn't feel right. Hate to say it but it seems like a stab at some quick cash.
You claim that other makes have not suffered any consequences from your using your product, wiithout presenting any technical evidence to substantiate the claims. This will not convince those of us without experience in the implied vehicle(s). And, so far has not drawn out any favorable support from the forum members who have driven the implied vehicle(s).
To convince people to accept and use your product you must show that the benefit of purchasing your product exceeds the risks(finanicial and other) associated with using your product. Perhaps you should have one of your technical people with the papers and the numbers etc. in front of them take the batters box. At the moment, it appears that no one is buying it!
Just noticed the pun in the last line on the re-read before submitting. I'll leave in as it is so appropo!
You claim that other makes have not suffered any consequences from your using your product, wiithout presenting any technical evidence to substantiate the claims. This will not convince those of us without experience in the implied vehicle(s). And, so far has not drawn out any favorable support from the forum members who have driven the implied vehicle(s).
To convince people to accept and use your product you must show that the benefit of purchasing your product exceeds the risks(finanicial and other) associated with using your product. Perhaps you should have one of your technical people with the papers and the numbers etc. in front of them take the batters box. At the moment, it appears that no one is buying it!
Just noticed the pun in the last line on the re-read before submitting. I'll leave in as it is so appropo!
My original intention with this thread was to let MB owners know the very popular JBD, which has been successfully used on over a thousand BMW turbo diesels, is compatible and available as a tuning option for them. And to convey that the power gains are on the order of 10% or so with the conservative default settings.
I have no intention of trying to educate potential customers on how common rail boxes work other than to point out the JBD is only one of many different brands of similar products that are widely in use around the globe. I also have no intention of trying to convince anyone that a modest 10% bump in power is "safe" or "for them". Other than to say we've provided almost double that gain in other applications for years without issue.
On the technical aspects of how the JBD works, I think I've addressed any questions asked even though that is outside the scope of this topic. It was mentioned that adding more fuel results in a higher EGT, which is true. We've seen changes on the order of 50F in similar applications at this power gain. A higher EGT means more heat to the turbine which naturally results in a little more boost all else being equal. The higher boost in turn serves to lean out the air/fuel mixture reducing EGT. Obviously this system balances itself. In practice we've found manually forcing boost 1-2psi higher resulted in no significant EGT change. So one of my points above was not to get too caught up in the theory. This is not a 1000hp turbo diesel motor and we're talking about relatively minor changes as a percentage of overall power output.
Beyond that if you have any additional questions or concerns feel free to email me. Due to lower traffic I don't believe we'll be sponsoring this forum much longer but always happy to help via email or on other forums we participate in.
Last edited by Jon@BMS; 04-03-2013 at 04:29 PM.
#22
All,
I stumbled across this thread doing research on GL320's. I can't tell you how happy I am to see that the JBD is now available for MB vehicles. Having owned VW and BMW diesels, the biggest thing holding be back from a ML or GL CDI was the relative lack of power compared with the other V6 diesels out there. I have owned most and driven them all. The power difference is very noticeable.
Moreover, I have read all of the articles and posts bashing "tuning boxes" on various forums. They are probably mostly correct... From what I have been able to ascertain, however, Burger does it right and are fairly conservative with their approach. Their products have proven to be very reliable and effective. Based on my experience, they stand behind their product and customers are generally very happy. Clearly, they don't have much MB experience, but I trust they will get it right.
I stumbled across this thread doing research on GL320's. I can't tell you how happy I am to see that the JBD is now available for MB vehicles. Having owned VW and BMW diesels, the biggest thing holding be back from a ML or GL CDI was the relative lack of power compared with the other V6 diesels out there. I have owned most and driven them all. The power difference is very noticeable.
Moreover, I have read all of the articles and posts bashing "tuning boxes" on various forums. They are probably mostly correct... From what I have been able to ascertain, however, Burger does it right and are fairly conservative with their approach. Their products have proven to be very reliable and effective. Based on my experience, they stand behind their product and customers are generally very happy. Clearly, they don't have much MB experience, but I trust they will get it right.
#23
Member
Not with this attitude:
I have no intention of trying to educate potential customers on how common rail boxes work other than to point out the JBD is only one of many different brands of similar products that are widely in use around the globe. I also have no intention of trying to convince anyone that a modest 10% bump in power is "safe" or "for them".
One interpretation: I don't care about you or what you might have invested in your vehicle. I just want your money.
Thank you Terry for being honest enough to admit it in circuitous terms.
By the way, we wanted to know how your common rail box worked, and what sets your box apart from the others. If you don't intend to educate folks, how do you intend for them to determine whether your product is a good product and the right one for them? Just take your word for it??
Again, we asked for help in understanding your tuning box, you demonstrated that is of no interest to you or your company and you are wondering why your thread has low to no traffic!!
#24
Everyone has their own opinion. I was merely offering my experience with the company.
My take on all this is that the OP was honest and direct but perhaps not as fluent as he/she should have been regarding the injector duration/timing question.
This really went down hill when a member made comments insinuating no one should buy these devices because they are all evil, ineffective, and will likely lead to an immediate and complete meltdown.
Clearly, I am being dramatic here but it appears that members that have no use or interest in the product began their own crusade to disparage the product. Further, the comments were made based on assumptions.
Seems that every forum has folks looking to pick a fight. The opinion on "tuning boxes" in general is very nearly unanimously unfavorable. Do actual research, however, and you will find that this is one reasonable and reliable solution for increasing power in BMW diesels. How does it work in a MB? Well, we shall see.
My take on all this is that the OP was honest and direct but perhaps not as fluent as he/she should have been regarding the injector duration/timing question.
This really went down hill when a member made comments insinuating no one should buy these devices because they are all evil, ineffective, and will likely lead to an immediate and complete meltdown.
Clearly, I am being dramatic here but it appears that members that have no use or interest in the product began their own crusade to disparage the product. Further, the comments were made based on assumptions.
Seems that every forum has folks looking to pick a fight. The opinion on "tuning boxes" in general is very nearly unanimously unfavorable. Do actual research, however, and you will find that this is one reasonable and reliable solution for increasing power in BMW diesels. How does it work in a MB? Well, we shall see.
#25
Member
Have been researching the Carlsson, Kleeman and Burger. If I can't get any info from one of their reps, what the hell. Did not dump on the company, just having trouble understanding why they sponsor with such a lousy/lazy rep!