djhagen

my local repair shop has been using 0W40 oil ... problem?

Diabolis

There is only one MB 229.52 approved oil worldwide in that viscosity listed on BEVO - Mobil 1 ESP x3 0W-40. If your shop was using that particular oil, then most likely not. If they were using anything but that specific oil, you certainly have valid grounds to point the finger at them as it would at the very least provide decreased engine protection and contribute toward the engine failure.

krrs

As the specification is both backward and forward complaint you can use any oil 229.5, 229.51, 229.52 or in the service bulletins any ACEA E9 oil.

As the 229.51 and 229.52 have only gas engine (SN qualified oils) approved using any to those are not ACEA E9 qualified... that is the real MB spec. though it is a little hard to go back and find. Only approved shops have access, but Mercedes is recommending the heavier weight heavy duty diesel oil basically. What is the difference simply a SN qualified oil and a ACEA E9 oil have different detergent packages, and slightly different levels of ash - i.e. zinc, that as spec is basically .8 to 1.0 so a 20% difference. Why is that important the slightly higher ash of something ACEA E9 qualified oil like Shell Rotella T6 0w-40 or more commonly available 5w-40 makes the difference in the camshaft drive chain wear, from 80,000 mi. or in the case of the little more ash engine lifetime for the chains. I only used Shell Rotella T6 as it is the most popular in the USA for heavy duty diesel oil for emission controlled engines with DEF and triple catalyst systems. Not to forget the difference in detergent additive packages between gas passenger vehicles and heavy duty diesel oils most importantly is soot dispersant, gas engine oils do not need or have that but diesel engine oils do need it. The soot is 1 micron or smaller but it has been shown that cylinder walls are affected by particles most in the range of 2-8 microns. Well what happens is without it the soot particles have an electrical attraction and clump, then due to the environment if heat, oil, and an acid is present (must be all) then basically these clumps of soot react and harden into something very much like a diamond abrasive. The bad thing is the size of that spans over the range of the 2-8 microns... so the cylinder bores are polished leading to lubrication and sealing failures of the engine. As most heavy duty diesels and passenger diesels do not have replaceable wear sleeves as a service item, see this video and you will see a replaceable an anti-polishing sleeve/ring, i.e. replaceable wear sleeve.

This, greatly accelerates the blow-by rate of exhaust gas past the rings into the crankcase, this allows the combustion gas to condense in the oil and crankcase, and as water is a significant constituent of these as are mixed Nitric Oxides, NOX, combustion product acids are formed in the crankcase oil. The presence of acid with oil, moisture, and heat cause the formation of grease or soap thickening agents turning the oil into that think goo... sludge! All of this increases oil consumption including soot production by oil leaking past the now leaking rings which accelerates the problems. And, the EPA does not like oil burning with low oxygen levels as exist in EGR feed diesels as it increase the rate of the contamination of the DEF and catalysts eventually killing them much sooner. So I wonder why the big worry about even a high ash oil, like heavy duty diesel oil used to be back in the bad old days and heavier loading of zinc, if you are burning less of it than with a modern low ash oil: note modern heavy duty diesel oils are low ash and zinc loaded compared to the bad evil olden days 20 years or more ago.

Now do you think Mercedes Benz engineering with the vast institutional knowledge of the oldest automotive and engine company going back 130 years ago, don't well understand all this... then I would say your are very naive. I have over the years many friends who have worked for theses companies, in fact when the OM617A was being developed I knew the program manager Jim MacFarland and the test section manager Bob Mullen at Garrett in Torrance, CA where it was developed under contract to Benz. The German engineers kept insisting on the soft cylinder walls and soft iron valve seats saying they wore longer... not so. Bob could not get the things to pass the 1000 hr full load high rpm test... gross valve recession. So Bob had the engines put together with hard valve seats and they got by... the Germans placed them into production with the soft iron!!! As a friend Attila when I worked at Rocketdyne was always saying, the Germans are blockheads, he should know marrying one and my mom was one, though my boss was one of them of the old guys of Vergeltungswaffe 2, Peenemünde Army Research Center, Mittelwerk GmbH.
The engine I referred to in my intro was a very special unusual engine for NASA project I did a lot of testing and research on these problems for that...
for which I went out in the lab and built the samples, did the setups, instrumentation, and ran the tests myself I would know.

Diabolis

THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE. Using a 229.5 oil in a diesel with a DPF will kill the DPF in a very short time. They are very different standards, and not "compliant" with each other... they are not "updates" or minor revisions. I am not even going to address the rest of the verbal diarrhea in your post.

PLEASE STOP PROVIDING INCORRECT ADVICE.

John CC

I'm not clear what the poster meant by forward and backward, but new specifications are developed to address problems with past specifications, particularly when used in later engines. There is no way a older specification could be appropriate in an engine requiring a later specification. Otherwise, what would be the point of developing the new spec? With spark ignition oils, it is generally accepted that later specs, e.g. SF, are suitable for earlier engines designed for earlier specs, e.g. SE, but even this is not universally true. While SN may not damage the converter in an 1980 automobile, it also may not afford adequate protection for e.g. flat tappet camshafts, designed for an oil containing more zinc.

With today's complex Diesel emission systems, extreme care must be taken to ensure oils meeting the appropriate specs are used, and nothing else.

I think that engines calling for spec 229.51 oil can safely use 229.52 oils, but, then, most, if not all, 229.52 spec oils also list 229.51. I have seen a graph relating the properties of both oils and the only difference appears to be in the area of fuel efficiency. 229.5, as far as I know, is a totally different animal, is not intended for Diesel engines that have particulate filters, and would not be appropriate for those that do.

Diabolis

^ Exactly. 229.52 supersedes 229.51 as it was designed to better deal with oil dilution due to the widespread adoption of biodiesel and the higher biodiesel lubricity, and is somewhat more fuel efficient. Both are low-SAPS specs. 229.5 is indeed a completely different animal designed for use mainly in high-performance flat-tappet gasoline engines and is not a low-SAPS oil.

krrs

Diabolis: As you make accusations and we are in a Common Law system where an accuser must provide evidence and proof of fact as to accusations, you are the one who must proof their statements before I would make any defense, please prove your statements... that sir is the "experience of our civilization" [The Common Law, p.1, The Path of the Law, Harvard Law Review
Vol. 10, No. 8 (Mar. 25, 1897), pp. 457-478 Oliver Wendall Holmes, Jr.] so to make your accusations against another forum member who is trying to help educate and elucidate from his personal knowledge and experience and ownership of one of the vehicles in question, please provide first before making such accusations: test data, live data, research papers supporting your position, and the manufacturers support (like from a owners manual, Benz specification sheet, or other proofs), and as I gave in example Shell T6 Rotella in two viscosity product form, please provide where that manufacturer does not recommend the oils as to DEF SCR systems, like the Benz Bluetec is. Have you worked on engine or emission controls as an engineer, or manager?

I am trying to be helpful here with my opinions and personal knowledge from many years working professionally (getting paid) to work on engine "thermal machines" projects. I am not making unsupported accusations against other forum members. See as you may have your opinions, as I might, but to make a "friendly forum" where owners provide there experience and advice to other members into a forum of accusations against other members you must first have evidence of fact. You may disagree as much as you personally want but you may not make accusations without backing them up. I wonder if you know what type of EGR system we are concerned with herein, and there are several types read here https://dieselnet.com/tech/engine_egr.php [Basic Explanation] and here https://dieselnet.com/tech/engine_egr_emissions.php [Performance EGR] and https://x-engineer.org/automotive-en...architectures/ [Types of EGR different architectures].

Diabolis

I am sorry - I just want to understand this: you want ME to provide YOU with proof that MB 229.5 oil spec is not interchangeable with MB 229.51 oil spec?

Please tell me this is all a miscommunication because English is not your first language, and I'll readily accept that. Otherwise, you're completely off... way off. Yes, I do know what I am talking about when it comes to engine lubrication and tribology.

John CC

Q. What is the difference between a dead snake on the road and a dead lawyer on the road?

A. Skid marks in front of the snake.

krrs

Yes, you must provide the proof of your accusations whether you are debating someone, accusing them of a civil infraction, accusing of a crime, or making a libelous statement. As soon as you make the accusation or with it the proofs are needed in at least some minimal form, you did not, only make some general irrelevant comments you knew better: FYI review this and see whether you are justified in not backing these matters up... https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...efamation.html .

In answer to your open ended and general question question: Originally Posted by djhagen View Post "my local repair shop has been using 0W40 oil ... problem?" I provided explanations, technical details, technical explanations of causations, some relevant testing done that day on my car, video showing an anti-polishing ring or sleeve, I also provided you with an example oil I believe suitable for use as I use it, you could also likely use Mobil Delvac 1 ESP heavy duty diesel oil in the desired viscosity ranges. Then later after your accusations I provided more and links to technical explanations of EGR systems, EGR performance, and EGR architectures... I did not go into PCV system as I thought it obvious. All this to provide YOU an answer that would stand engineering scrutiny. I also note my car never has had any oil problems, engine problems except the MAF sensor calibration failure, and a failure of the turbo inlet gasket and PCV gasket at the turbo. It has not had ever any real build up of DEF loading beyond 20%, and usually it is in the lower single digits. Nor do I have any bore polishing or scuff issues. Nor have I had any residue noticeable buildup in the exhaust tail pipe, very light normal EGR residue that is well within acceptable limits for any light duty auto engine. No you made the accusations, you get to followup on them or appear silly, perhaps treading into libel, and extremely uncivil and in polite. I did nothing to you to injure you, and you did everything you possible to insult and injure me without justification, all to punish me for trying to help you out. You might find these videos helpful... https://www.youtube.com/c/AutoExpert...20DEF%20system and there are many others on DEF technical education series, like this: Or would your rather... Good day... et adieu!

Diabolis

kajtek1

krrs

Diabolis, krd2023, djhagan, John CC, kajteck1:
I am working on a post that will be a separate thread on the Bluetec engine system and fundamental problems with oil type, and as that and engine cycle as well as wear contribute to the issue of sludge formation, and coking of the inlet system. I got distracted with this thread and only posted as I read about krd2023 problems and I thought I could help out. Diabolis and dijhagan asked about the 0w-40 oil and acceptability with use... but it is not simply specifications. If MB specifications were not the problem with the Bluetec system they would not have settled a couple billion dollar settlement with some attorneys and the EPA. I truly believe those attorneys did not consider the class only their benefit from it. This is why I am interested in this issue, certainly I own one of the cars and that settlement basically made it very likely it could not be registered and license issued under the laws of the USA and nearly all States if they cared to enforce laws currently on books. It was for MB a way to minimize financial impact... I don't think they given one hoot in hell about their customers who have cars older than 2-3 years, why is because the primary target market is to people with enough disposable income to buy the new model just because its new. Range Rover and Rolls Royce have similar target markets.

A comment as to my experience with German engineers and managers, they always have this chip on their shoulder they are absolutely right, and they always pick the highest tech and performance path... and will act toward any given American engineer as if they are bumpkins and know nothings. I have worked in the aerospace thermal machines segment rockets and various air breathing propulsion and power production systems, done research for NASA and Caterpillar on piston engine technology, done some temporary work with gaseous fuel company as to emissions control and new products basically so I could work with Bob Mullen formerly of Chrysler Performance Research as we had been wanting to work together for many years . After I retired in 1991 from the job of advanced development military aviation systems programs manager, I did some of the consulting work on thermal machines but my primary interest was emerging technologies as to intermediate force systems, and reconnaissance. Part of that was consulting on the propulsion of the Aurora Perseus aircraft for _____ and ultra high altitude atmospheric sampling over the antarctic and polar regions; this used a reciprocating engine first Wankel then Piston Rotax running on an unusual cycle of near total EGR with make up oxygen from liquid fuel storage... basically über Bluetec! I suggested to a friend Alvin Lowi, Jr. of Rancho Palos Verdes, CA who worked is whole life on engineering thermal machines to go to Dryden and propose a replacement for that abortion, maybe he could get some consulting funding, the system used by Aurora required intercooler of like the size of a barn door! The suggestion I gave was to remind him when he worked on his doctorate while at Aerospace Corporation, he had done a side job for Warren Boardman of Marquardt Corp (a friend and mentor when I took over the systems manager job), Warren invented pulse width fuel control [yes I know Bendix and F. Porsche/Bosch lay claim to that injection system for autos] but Warren use was for attitude control pulse rockets for coming envisioned man space flight and reconnaissance in the from of Spy Satellites, both which he successfully proposed and sold the government on, but he beat anybody else with putting a pulse width controlled electronic fuel injection by years [here is a later development when they were refining for fuel selection and investigation of ignition delay of the rocket fuel... hypergolic ignition - that is how a diesel works hyperbolically the hot air from compression and fuel touch and ignite]. But the Patent office put a National Security lockdown on that technology for several years... so no one could know about it, screwing Warren out of the credit. Later I beat Warrens security lockdown record with my own nearly doubling it on with flying wing and drone technologies... which I broke finally in court... violation of a citizens 5th Amendment Rights. When Warren proposed the original spy satellite programs but Laurence Rockefeller was a major invest in that company, and owned ITeK in New England... Warren needed the folded cartesian optics ITeK in the Bay Area had... and they informed Laurence... who undercut Marquardt politically redirecting to the New England Div. of ITeK. But Marquardt built near all the pulse rockets used for a long long time. Warren proposed even before NASA was formed the Apollo Mission and the controlling technology pulse rocket technology and the flight profile and configuration of space craft used... figuring not to get much real business... NASA when formed agreed to his technical approach to the mission and this broke the security lockdown on the pulse rocket... but in the mean time he had made a couple SAE papers on it used as an engine injection, and the others simply copied the technology... and Europe has first to file patent system over our first to invent [now that has been realigned after Obama 2012 to meet goals of -> Rosa Koire exposes the UN Agenda 2030… A New Video… coming sooner than one might think ]. Anyway, I remember the Perseus system well and all its problems, proposing an alternative to Al Lowi to use Warren's pulse rocket piston engine test concept.... which all wrote as a proposal to Aerospace Corp consulting for Warren. The as he was leading the analytical evaluation of cold gas jet vs Warren's pulse rocket... Warren got the inside track covered with the Air Force. It turns out as Al says the Warren's pulse rocket gave America the moon and the big edge in space over the Soviet choice of cold gas get attitude control. FYI now Northrop Grumman leads he spy satellite game, my brother retired from Northrop and had worked at the Space Div... and everybody was surprised that he "knew WARREN"... David ended up being Northrop's gray beard on Total Quality and Process Management and on their Corporate NAR team (makes decisions as to technology and business pursued over total corp.). Why Northrop basically owns the satellite game now is "chips" the specialized 1000x better than any computer you ever heard of for sensor processing. Warren was a good friend and had interesting background.... he went bankrupt when he was 18 years old in 1938... and the court took his $50 dollar gold piece his grandmother gave for High School graduation! Why this happened is it started his father winning the weekly poker game with Howard Hughes and got some oil leases Hughes had... so funny story.

The high EGR Engine Aurora was using was a total failure... and had the same problems as the Bluetec MB engines... slugging oil from contamination of combustion byproducts blow by into the crankcase... and condensation of water in the inlet track... eventually leading to very quick failure of the engines. DoD and CIA still have missions for high altitude that could have used the technology... all the scientists on the environmental side where only there because of the funding research.. they all knew the environmental concerns are a mask for something else. Al wrote for Warran's proposal because Warren was too busy, on Warren's research engine idea for testing fuel delay... an IC reciprocating diesel but run on rocket fuel aniline and rocket oxidizer red fuming nitric acid. But of course he had to propose as a barrel cam engine (not necessary) and we discussed using polycrystalline graphite for the engine structure and using rather than convection heat transfer (bad idea where their is little air at high altitude of 20 miles) and planned the engine should run on incandescent heat transfer. I gave my assessment a little later our ideas on incandescent heat transfer would work but we should run on a monopropellant cycle using nitromethane with direct diesel injection and exhaust gas trapping for providing a hypergolic / catalyst ignition method. Al fought that idea due to high specific fuel requirements but my idea won out because the fuel and oxidizer handling and tankage equipment on the aircraft outweighed the additional fuel required for any mission considered possible. Al's diesel converting over idea to the rocket fuel did not work for almost exactly the problem with the Bluetec... the soot combining with droplets of diesel and clumping to form small clumps combined with graphite wear products which heat, reducing atmosphere, pressure on these liquid drops to create an abrasive like diamond but in a graphite engine it would wear out before it got started and long before it got up to temperature. As Al had sold NASA and the MIT, Yale, and Harvard (environmentalists) guys on "dual fuel capability... and economy" my idea of the monopropellant sort of languished until the problems with the creating wear products in the diesel fuel oil droplets. So we had to do it as air breathing with compressed natural gas for use under 40,000 feet and nitromethane trapped exhaust gas above... stupid complication.

I posted here because want to do the writeup on the Bluetec... mainly to educate owners and because first I have some technical solutions which will simply and make the system more robust, second I plan to go back to court claiming the solution of that Bluetec settlement does not meet the rules of the court, does not provide finality to the dispute due to all the other more serious day to day problems customers have like seized engines and oil sludge and drivability reliability claims left out of the class action, and the courts ruling violates the standard of review as to substantial evidence and being an arbitrary official act of government, i.e. unreasonableness. I think I can get an Appeals Court or Supreme Court to throw out the settlement as it is to be fixed... should have been more inclusive. Look at all the guys with sludge engines and my problem of a car with little value that I intended to drive the rest of my life. I want my value out of it both the perceived value, and practical value damage this has caused me... an others.

kajtek1

Wouldn't 1991 retirement make you close to 100 years old?
You made long topic, mixing several issues, what makes it hard to comprehend.
I appreciate your commitment for helping others, but even I am high-tech mechanic myself, with oil classes in the past, I don't feel qualify to judge chemical reactions in modern diesels.
What makes you expert in chemistry?
Statistically in USA we have about 10 Sprinter Bluetecs for each Bluetec car and Sprinters don't blow the engines. I have small theory about it, but why OM651 is not having the issue?

krrs

Sorry, here is the part I posted yesterday in answer to you but the way this forum works... it went into another "Related" thread, maybe it helps [additions made today 16th September 2021 inclosed brackets]:
Mercedes has lots of problem with the Bluetec. [should I say Mercedes owner has lots of problems?] Go with something else. I have my E350 Bluetec and have not had problems. But it requires careful attention to work out well. Using a proper oil and keeping everything operating in specification. Yes you will have to clean the inside of the inlet air system and the EGR system... as they carbon up. Generally I have had good service. I drive it more like how I fly a modern airplane... !
Understand the engine operates in most modes with high level of exhaust gas recirculation. Well this is hard to measure precisely without specialized lab equipment. The car does a pretty good job of estimating... the car ECU calculated the actual flow from position of the EGR valve and mass air flow into the inlet. They did tests in the lab during development to discover the actual EGR mass flows and then in the ECU created an algorithm to calculate with fair accuracy the percentage of EGR to inlet flow, and to also so the actual mass flow rate to the inlet.
The EGR works like a throttle. Some numbers at a constant 75 mph on flat ground today [Tuesday 14th September 2021, Dayton OH] manifold pressure 1160 mpa, ambient air pressure 966 mpa, percent of total inlet flow of EGR 74%; going up long hill 1220-1250 mpa manifold pressure, ambient air pressure 966 mpa, EGR -60% of total inlet flow, and; total EGR going down long hill 40% . DEF loading 4% at beginning, 4% at end of 52 mile run, fuel milage average 37 mpg. My DEF has never exceeded 20 %, but mostly stays very low in the less than 10% and mostly less than 5%. No sludge in oil or crankcase/sump/valve covers. Some moderate soft carbon soot buildup in inlet manifolds and EGR plumbing... due for cleaning. The only beyond routing maintenance has been replacing the MAF sensors... actually the air horn with the left and right MAF sensors... I cleaned them... this puts them out of calibration... you then have to buy a whole new air horn sensor assembly that has been balanced calibration... don't clean... just keep air clears replaced often. I have seen in the middle 90%s of EGR of total inlet flow!!! You will find lowest level of EGR at idle with around 0%. My engine in leak down test [100 psig test, runs less than 5% - excellent and the cylinder bores have not been polished. Oil changes every 5000 miles with filter, first 25,000 miles Mobil ESP synthetic 0w-30 synthetic 229.52. Since 25,000 Shell Rotella T6 5w-40... no problems.

[Note: Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 - this is higher zinc and phosphorus than the Mobil 229.52 oil. Changes for 2017 were primarily implemented to satisfy the new diesel engine spec: CK-4. The focus in this new formulation was on high temp shear, deposit control, and oxidation stability. The relatively high level of zinc that existed in the old formulation is slightly higher now, and soluble moly has been added as well. Shell's tech support informs only minor concern is that high levels of zinc can contribute to catalytic converter damage/clogging but they have confidence this would not happen if the engine was not experiencing oil consumptions very high, but that otherwise, zinc is a big part of what makes T6 a superior heavy duty engine oil. A product line extension of T6 called 5w30 "Multi-Vehicle" which Shell tech said 'is more of a marketing/sales decision and that this formulation is very similar, with lower levels of zinc and a more usual SAE Viscosity Grade.

I think your concerns as to the general engine and its problems are influenced by bad experience. The bad experience for me has been some worry over the extremely high levels of EGR flow used, and this is high pressure EGR so cooling it and its soot load becomes a concern. Dumping, even after cooling, this amount of exhaust gas in an engine inlet is simply dangerous, and an unnecessary complication. I think the $7000 is outrageous for a short block...

The Aurora Perseus aircraft, a research aircraft at NASA Dryden Flight Test Center I worked on the research engine with a similar closed cycle, there were infinite problems. The original rotary "Wankel type" engine fell away to a Rotax 4 cylinder then they considered my idea of a rocket engine thrust combined with and expanding into a piston engine as the most suitable...it achieved a high altitude record for a winged aircraft in the early 1990s. They also lost several planes over the Pacific due to the same problems experienced with the Bluetec diesels... resulting in mid-flight engine failures.

krrs

Well 70s - how old are you? Often in engineering and the test lab problems are discovered which are hard to resolve using a group or committee approach common now in everything technical done in our civilization, partly this is an issue with bureaucracy and partly management. The way it is, I expect you whatever it is to be able and inquisitive enough to go find out. Here is a middle school class similar to what I took... at 14 years but being inquisitive child of 7 years, I did these very same experiments It reminds of Anyone with average intelligence applied can understand them, if interested to inquire! do you need a college education to have enough sense to figure out matters. It is a huge problem in the world. I made some statements as to oil and my experience in research of similar problems... imagine that in 5 minutes I can find someone somewhere on the web that has no more than mechanical experience that can explain... violà , randomly found but brilliant! Now you could submit a formal inquiry to Shell oil on there T6 Rotella... this is what they will say, or something close: 'Rotella T6 full synthetic 5w-40 oil was reformulated a few years ago the zinc level was reduced but still kept sufficiently high to prevent mechanical lubrication failures in extreme pressure sliding lubrication situations, and that they believe and it's backed up with their experience as the no.1 used fleet mixed use oil (gas and diesel engines) with catalyst emission and DEF SCR systems to not cause problems. The level of zinc is proven and expected by our customers to protect their engines.' Did any of that take a chemical engineering degree or consultation expertise... no these are sources with practical, historical, and technical information available for anyone to find out.

Here is the ACEA oil sequences... https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php and Rotella T9 is ACEA E9
"ACEA E9 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing effective control with respect to piston cleanliness and bore polishing. It further provides excellent wear control, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, Euro V and Euro VI emission requirements and running under severe conditions, e.g. extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer's recommendations. It is suitable for engines with or without particulate filters, and for most EGR engines and for most engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. E9 is strongly recommended for engines fitted with particulate filters and is designed for use in combination with low sulphur diesel fuel. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers so Drivers Manuals and/or Dealers should be consulted if in doubt."

Here are some oil analysis numbers for the old CJ-4 and current CK-4 formula, and the newer CK-4 formula settled scroll down from the combined report. Note it is Euro VI emission and Shell has an engine warranty for use: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th.../#post-4490450

Here is a recent study on soot levels in the oil... a problem... only aggravated by the MB 299.51, .52 specifications calling for oil without diesel soot loading capability, see: https://link.springer.com/article/10...249-018-1115-x this is why I use the Rotella T6 along with 5000 mile oil changes.

I think the Sprinter and various MB sedans, and SUVs fall into different emission and engine classifications in both Euro and EPA emission regulation... so they are not apples to apples. But if the basic engine is a particular unit a short block and heads would fit both uses interchangeably. Only the accessories would be different. This said, as to why the problems less frequent show up in Sprinters: you may be thinking the Sprinter has significantly larger oil capacity, and therefore it would take more hours or miles of equivalent operation to run up the soot levels in the oil to be a problem... that Sprinters see a different use and driving cycle than personal cars, and that Sprinters are run by generally more knowledgable and maintenance attentive owners. Remember the little old lady in Pasadena probably only makes short trips and never goes on the freeway, and the guy in any given town in Montana taking his car to work in the mourning and back in evening on bitter cold winter days the thing never gets up to temperature... i.e. should be walking!

John CC

You're either the world's fastest typist, or you have way too much time on your hands.

krrs

Recovering from pericarditis and a 105 degree fever for 2 days following the 2nd shot of Moderna Vaccine for COVID19; recovering house bound for several months and plotting murder of all involved! So my psychiatrist and good friend suggested getting busy to keep my mind off that, then going through my old mail found a letter explaining the Bluetec class action... and thinking «cette petite haute pute de merde» [what's this little piece of good news from Mercedes]. My nearing a century mother advice is to "dump that aggravation" !

John CC

Sorry to hear of your health issues. These are trying times. My wife and I are both high risk. Our whole household is fortunate to have had the Pfizer vaccine with no ill effects.

dave2001auto

this article is a good summary on sludge formation:
https://www.machinerylubrication.com...sludge-varnish
E9 catagory is for heavy duty extreme conditions that the 40 weight is much thicker than Mercedes specifications for 229.51 and 229.52 40 weight diesel oils.
By the way 229.5 are the specifications for gasoline engine. Historically Oils rarely cover both gas and diesel specifications well. Contaminates are different. Some of the newer formulations might — just don’t know which ones.

I don’t have a thin enough scope to view the oil pan without disassemble. Mechanic said no sludge when replacing the pan seal on the 09 bluetec. I want to know on the 12 e350 4matic DI gas. Inside the valve cover looks clean. I am tempted to add mystery oil and idle for 5 minutes before an oil change as a preventative cleaning.

krrs

Hi, in looking through alternatives for the lube motor oil in the OM642 I found several research papers of which I will refer you to one: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ve_An_overview

Well just wondering about this because I have used additives with boron nitride as a motor oil additive for extreme friction wear modification (reduction) with success.

With these beneficial additive there are already formulated "Official MB Approval - 229.51" motor oils... in various viscosity formulations. And, additives for improving other oils. You will have to read the referenced research paper to understand, if you don't you will not. A Danish Oil company happens to make this oil: 229.51 in 5w-40 and other viscosity formulation, Webiol - https://www.weboil.dk/shop/172-ws2-t...w40---5-liter/ in the five liter it costs around converting Danish Krone 395,00 to US Dollars it is $62.28 per 5 liters, and in cases of 3 5L - 375,00 DKK - $59.56 /5L .

They also have a additive for other motor oils this is in an ester synthetic base (perfect for Ester Oils like Amsoil) will work with most any motor oil... https://www.weboil.dk/shop/172-ws2-t...ring---250-ml/ and us DKK 149,00 or US Dollars $23.50 this may be better to use as additive though I have experience shipping oils from Europe to America.

I

krrs

Oh, finally dug out the oil recommendations from MB... both 229.3 and 229.5 (all subclasses) are approved for the 3.0L OM642 engines all subclasses (w272 and w276), I now see why the European Engines (w276 subclass) and the North American and elsewhere (w272 subclass) have different outcomes with sludge, people simply go to the spec. for 229.51 and 229.52 oils but not to the real recommendation at MB which is for either 229.3 or 229.5 oils all subclasses.

Mr. Stephens was right in his Blog (note he was 5 times the MB Worldwide Service Manager of the Year). They are using the 229.3 spec. heavy duty engine oils in the taxi cab fleets etc. like the American version of ACEA E9 oil... Shell Rotella T6 5w-40, I use.
Actually, I think this would apply to any use of the OM642 engine as the European engines (w276) have higher specific output.

Here is the oil specification recommendation from MB for BlueTec Efficiency 3.0L diesels M272 version of OM642 from July 2009 onwards... the 229.5 oil spec... covers both 229.51 and 229.52.. this is for all World Wide Approvals. Also Approved are any of these engines with M276 versions of Western Europe from 2009 on is with 229.3 oil spec and 229.5 oil spec all sub classes. It is on the Official MB "Oil Finder" web page here... https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevol...&language_id=1

Here is the proper final search result - https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevol...carspecid=3682

Also found out the world record holder for sustained speed over a 100,000 miles is the Bluetec diesel 3.0L OM642 w276 engine in a E350 sedan, at over 129 miles per hour sustained average... without oil change!

Hope this is all clear now!

krrs

and Dave2001 I think that Marvel Mystery Oil or Seafoam run for the last 20 minutes to an hour before oil change would fix you up with some security, with little risk. That is good article you provided on sludge. As to any of the OM642 engines I put in a quote above which includes the 2009 engines, it explains a lot. I would use the 229.3 (which includes sub updates like 229.31) as the best oil in either car the 2009 Bluetec OM642 (either w272, w276 US or Euro version) or the 2012 E350 3.5L gas engine with 4-matic oil spec here - https://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevol...carspecid=3629 . Whatever you chose that meets that I would make it either a 0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-30 or 15w-40 based on the climate you are in, generally the 5w-40 is the most sensible. But be sure it is a ACEA E9 oil. I would suggest the most popular, commonly available and reasonably priced full synthetic sold - Shell Rotella T6 full synthetic 5w-40 fits both well - In fact many motorcycle performance and cruiser types use this oil too...

Here is the ACEA oil sequences... https://www.oilspecifications.org/acea.php and Rotella T9 is ACEA E9
"ACEA E9 Stable, stay-in-grade oil providing effective control with respect to piston cleanliness and bore polishing. It further provides excellent wear control, soot handling and lubricant stability. It is recommended for highly rated diesel engines meeting Euro I, Euro II, Euro III, Euro IV, Euro V and Euro VI emission requirements and running under severe conditions, e.g. extended oil drain intervals according to the manufacturer's recommendations. It is suitable for engines with or without particulate filters, and for most EGR engines and for most engines fitted with SCR NOx reduction systems. E9 is strongly recommended for engines fitted with particulate filters and is designed for use in combination with low sulphur diesel fuel. However, recommendations may differ between engine manufacturers so Drivers Manuals and/or Dealers should be consulted if in doubt."

Here are some oil analysis numbers for the old CJ-4 and current CK-4 formula, and the newer CK-4 Shell Rotella T6 5w-40 formula settled scroll down from the combined report. Note it is Euro VI emission and EPA tier 4 (+) Shell has an engine warranty for use: https://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/th.../#post-4490450 . 2 1/2 gallon jugs at Tractor supply are running less than $50 this week. But buy the Seafoam at Walmart is 1/2 the price... you need 8 oz. for your clean run and flush job.

dave2001auto

T6 oil $50 for 2.5 gallons is a deal. Runs about $50 gal in NJ🥲. Pennzoil euro L 1.25 gal jug $13 when on sale to $25 regular price.
The 100% synthetic oil have more problem of contamination sludging than blends😟
PAOs base has lowest sludge dispensing ability.
100% synthetic shine at the temperature extremes. No one size fits all.
There are great III oils that have excellent sludge protection and high temperature stability and wear properties but too expensive due to a be additive package.

I would not try to improve a manufacturer’s additive package. Odds are the modifications will make it worse.

for short drives a blend and frequent oil changes.
long distance AZ summer driving 100% synthetic.

Gazwould

Rotella T6 scored 218th for oil film strength out of 254 oils tested , why bother ?