txjeep

I've been reading this thread with interest. With even minimal maintenance, any engine should last far in excess of 82k miles. What I find alarming are comments here that MB is allegedly denying claims on engines still in warranty. I have had my eye on a new GL, and was considering the diesel, but this thread has given me pause. Best of luck to the OP.

Dog hauler

Pause is good. But perhaps "stopped me in my tracks" is a more prudent outlook...just sayin'. MB really needs to get a grip on customer service.

GLKpaul

I purchased my first new to me 13 glk six months ago, i'm lovin the car but really concerened with this lack of simple communication and corporate cold shoulder the op is experiencing.

A car company (any decent company for that matter) should work with the client, work to a mutual conclusion through dialog, and although they may never agree, at least try.

I'll be watching as this goes forward..

Good luck op..

txjeep

LOL, that's exactly what I meant.

So is the current Diesel engine (2015+) the same as the ones that are having problems? If not, what YM did the change occur?

Thanks

krd2023

I too am shocked that MBUSA has closed and locked the door on me since April 2015, when my well-maintained 2010 ML350 Bluetec experienced engine failure at 82K miles. MBUSA has also been unresponsive in my attempts to involve them in negotiating a new Mercedes purchase as a resolution. As you can see in this post thread, I've exhausted efforts since April to amicably resolve the matter. Tomorrow, I'm meeting with my attorneys to discuss and pursue litigation options against MBUSA.

Dog hauler

Good luck on the lawyer thing. As I previously pointed out, once you hire a lawyer you lose. There is maybe $12, $15k involved in getting the new motor and the legal expert witness fees will exceed that amount by many multiples very quickly. Anyone who tells you otherwise is naive. And anyone who believes that you'll be awarded legal fees after your "inevitable" win is just nuts. Under certain and very limited circumstances, you might be allowed to petition for fees after you win. Even if your case were to fit into one of those limited circumstances, you'd still have to convince a judge to give you the fees. And that's a crap shoot at best.

But don't take my word for it, even though I've been on both ends of a legal bill many times over the years, ask your lawyer. And if the lawyer says anything different from what I'm saying here, ask him to take the case on a fixed fee basis at whatever stupid low number he throws out. Good luck with that.

Now, if there is some hope of a class action suit, that's quite different because the possible recovery will be exponentially greater than whatever it costs to replace your single motor. And the lawyer will take the case on a contingency.

I'm not trying to discourage you. MB deserves to be whacked in matters like this. On the other hand, your car was out of warranty when the engine let go so the obvious question is why do they deserve it. That's very hard to answer from a strictly legal perspective, but from a customer relations angle, you'd think they'd treat people better. On yet a third hand, if the reports of warranty claims being denied for engine failures within the warranty period are true, then MB really needs to be whacked hard.

Dog hauler

BTW, please be sure to let us know what your lawyer has to say tomorrow.

krd2023

As a follow-up to my engine failure issue, here's an interesting source regarding other MB owners stating "as part of a regular service, Mercedes is fitting free of charge an enlarged 14l oil sump and amended crankshaft bearings on my car. The issue was mentioned by Pistonhead last June in the thread: “News! basically, a forum filler” and appears to be specific to 2010/ 2011 G350 Bluetecs which were delivered with a oil sump capacity of 9l. The oil caused by the Bluetec technology can thicken leading to insufficient oil supply for the crankshaft which might damage the crankshaft and in extreme cases the engine." This thread goes on to reveal "This issue may be more than just a sump and bearings replaced. I am aware of 3 AGOA members now that have had the entire engine replaced. There is also modification to the steering links for RHD's to accommodate the larger sump. One member had the Service Measure completed and then a couple of months later 'lost' number 5 piston and had to have the entire engine replaced.
If I were buying second hand I would be making sure that I bought from a dealer and negotiated an extended warranty. There is plenty on this issue on the AGOA forum or the SA Forum" : Please see these original posts here:
http://www.gwoa.co.uk/content/purcha...-engine-issues

GLKpaul

Wow that is quite something, there must be a paper trail, parts have to be cataloged and taken in and out of inventory. If you can get somone to get you a copy you got a smoking gun in relation to your engine issue, would likely go a long way to get MB usa to want to open up.

Dog hauler

So what is the outcome of the meeting with your lawyer? I'm very curious to know if litigation will be pursued or if that idea is abandoned as too expensive with an outcome too uncertain.

krd2023

We're building a compelling case, only because MBUSA has been virtually silent and unresponsive since my April 2015 engine failure. Thanks for your input above, and I'll do my best to keep this thread updated until MBUSA decides to resolve my issue. My dilemma, expense, and time spent may at least help others in similar situations. I informed MBUSA months ago that I'll be very vocal and public unless and until they decide to reasonably assist me. Evidence continues to surface from several directions of engine defects in certain MB engines:

http://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-s...ction-lawsuit/

And another related article this year (March 2015) reinforces MB's engine issues .... "the accord stipulates that Mercedes will reimburse putative class members for repair costs they incurred to replace the allegedly defective engines and will cover future repairs on the parts at issue for the lesser of either 10 years or 125,000 miles. If the repair was not done at an authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer, class members will be reimbursed the actual amount paid or $4,000, whichever is less." as found here : http://www.law360.com/articles/63515...t-class-action

Even though the engine issues referenced above are mostly gas engine-related, the OM642 diesel engine in my 2010 ML350 Bluetec is also prone to issues. Wikipedia here describes common problems with this engine related to oil cooler leaks, positive crankcase ventilation system, and emission system failures all of which I've experienced (among other issues) with my ML350. The following data on the OM642 diesel engine is taken directly from Wikipedia here:

"Production
The engine is manufactured at the Daimler AG plant in Marienfelde, Berlin, Germany.[4]

Due to the inordinate number of pre-2010 OM642 engines needing repair due to heat-related seal degradation causing oil cooler leaks, Mercedes reformulated the seals from an orange color rubber to a purple color Viton seal now used in all 2010 and later engines. There is a Mercedes Technical Service Bulletin that states that the leak can be attributed to an improperly installed seal.[5] This engine also has an inherent design flaw with the TWC temperature sensor (part no. A005 153 40 28) and the part in the electronic parts catalog is now specifying part no. A007 153 74 28; there is no recall on this service item yet. A check engine light may present with the OBD-2 diagnostic code P2031 upon failure of this sensor.[6]

Oil specification MB 229.51 or MB 228.31 is recommended, for the bluetec engine in the G w463, GL x164 and Ml w164 the oilspec. is 229.52 class.[7]

In addition to the oil cooler seals; this engine can also have an issue with the design of the positive crankcase ventilation system. The crankcase ventilation system vents to the inlet of the turbo. The issue is that the air vented from the crankcase contains too much oil to easily pass through the swirl motor valves downstream of the turbo. Once this oil and sludge begin to accumulate, the valve becomes inoperative and blows a fuse that controls many other sensors required to properly operate the engine and emission system. This will immediately place the vehicle into limp home mode and limit the rpm to 3000. It also causes a check engine light and numerous OBDII Codes. Mercedes Benz has previously recognized this feature of the vehicle and has stated that this engine feature, the accumulation of oil at the turbo inlet, is "normal". In a Technical Service Bulletin they issued in 2008 they state: "Engine oil venting occurs on the right hand side of the engine air intake duct. For this reason there is always some oil in the engine air intake duct, see (Figure 3). This is no justification for replacing the turbocharger. Turbochargers replaced for this reason will not be covered by warranty."[8] While a slight amount of oil may be normal and acceptable, sufficient quantities and accumulation will indeed lead to other failures as identified above."

txjeep

"MB owners stating "as part of a regular service, Mercedes is fitting free of charge an enlarged 14l oil sump and amended crankshaft bearings on my car."

If accurate, that does sound like tacit admission that there is a design problem relating to the oil circulation system. This was posted a little over a year ago. It would be very interesting to see if the oil capacity increased in the 2015 or later models. I could not find that info in the MB site. Does anyone know if it takes more oil to do an oil change on newer models?

DubVBenz

Hopefully the proper low-ash spec snythetic oil had been in use... if not... shame on who?

krd2023

Since I started this thread in May of this year, I remain perplexed at MBUSA’s virtual silence as it relates to my attempts to resolve a premature engine failure on my 2010 ML350 Bluetec with OM642 engine (which, as you can see from several reliable online sources, is an engine prone to problems). I’ve gone so far as to offer to buy another MB from the same dealer if MBUSA helps negotiate a fair trade-in value, yet MBUSA won’t engage. Here is my status update including some revelations as of today, now almost 5 months since the engine seized and my ML350 Bluetec continues to sit immobilized on the local MB dealer lot:

- The MB-recommended oil, Mobil 1 ESP from the dealer, was used throughout the life of the car and changed at 10K mile-recommended intervals and when the dealer recommended an oil change at services (where dealer services were done at least twice per year since I bought the car new). The oil level on dipstick was within safe operating ranges at all times (before and after the engine seized, and oil level was checked by me at frequent intervals). If oil changes on this car should be done more frequently, then MB shouldn’t recommend this 10K mile interval in the owner’s manual and maintenance booklets. Since 2010, I see that Mobil 1 ESP is no longer the recommended oil (and sources show it’s prone to sludging), the MBUSA Western Regional After Sales Manager I was dealing with no longer works for the company, and the service technician in charge of my car services at my local dealer no longer works there, the dealer can't locate an OM642 for engine replacement because of necessary engine modifications since 2010 and stated that I'll need to go with a different engine model, all for mysterious reasons to me.
- I’ve realized from recent research that I paid partially or fully for premature repairs since 2010 which should have been fully-covered by MBUSA and/or the dealer, including repairs involving glow plugs, adblue heater and pump, oil coolant seal leaks, a lunge or surge while driving sometimes from 1st gear to 2nd but never diagnosed, the engine “stuttered” when first accelerating at random times, battery replaced twice (indicating faulty electrical system but never diagnosed), and more, all of which is documented on dealer letterhead and accessible in MBUSA systems.
- As indicated prior in this thread, the only recent response I’ve received from MBUSA was a standard letter indicating they deem my car is not a lemon and will therefore not provide me with any assistance.

Ausmbtech

I've read more into the recall for the G-Wagons and a bit more into the differences between the Bluetec and non-Bluetec engines.

It appears that it's not a engine fault as such, but a oil longevity/suitability issue for Bluetec variants only. Bluetec isn't used world wide, it's only used in markets were they have lower limits for NOx. The process does increase oil temps and the chemical "stress" that the engine oil is exposed to. This is shortening the oil life and increasing the risk of sludging compared to a non-Bluetec engine. The engine failures are cause by crank/rod bearing seizure due to compromised lubrication (starvation and/or reduced oil film strength). Short or slow trips would amplify the issue due increased exhaust system regeneration.

The fact that there is a recall for the G-wagens regarding this exact issue shows MB are aware of the issue. Their solution is to add an additional 5L (more than 50% increase) of oil capacity to increase oil longevity.

MB also specify that a specific oil be used that is Bluetec compatible even though it still has the same "sheet number" of 229.51 that the non-Buetec diesels require. ref http://m.mercedes-benz.com.au/conten...ngine_oil.html (G350 is the only Australian model with Bluetec at this stage)

Now would be a good time to consult your lawyer.
You now know MB are aware of the sludging issue and have issued a recall on a vehicle with the same engine/emission system fitted.
You know that MB specified a unique oil to be used on Bluetec models only (was this actually used during servicing and did MB specifically notify dealers of this requirement as it's very much buried in the fine print).
If MB didn't/couldn't fit a larger sump to the ML then they should have revised their service intervals accordingly.

With these 3 points you would have a very good case and MB has very little defense. I doubt you'll get MB assistance without a lawyer involved now.

GLKpaul

Thanks for the update, keep us posted

Carsy

Excellent info Ausmbtech. thank you.

krd2023

Thank you, Ausmbtech. Your input is very helpful to me and several others reading this. It helps my case as I'm consulting with several attorneys currently and my legal filing is imminent. Costs and evidence continue to mount against MBUSA because of their unwillingness to work with me.

Dog hauler

I wish you all the luck in the world on the legal front, but I'm very curious to know how you plan to ever come out ahead financially. Did you find a lawyer to take the case on a contingent fee? Is your lawyer working this up into a class action? I hope so because that's the only way I can see this won't bleed you dry (unless your pockets are way deep and the legal bills mean less than the principle...in that case, or in either case, really, good for you. Go get 'em.)

And may your lawyer kick a little extra butt for me on account of the way MB customer service treated me.

Ausmbtech

Here are some docs to show there is a different oil specified by MB for Bluetec 642 engines.

Doc 1, page 1, right hand column, show only 229.52 oil may be used. Also footnote #4 on page 4 shows same info

Doc 3, page 2, shows a sole spec oil approved for Bluetec engines (EU6/BIN5)

Doc 4 is a current list of 229.52 oils. Note that Mobil 1 ESP is only approved as a 0w30 and not any other viscosicity

Doc 5 is a bulletin pointing out the different oil requirement "due to recent events" (widely considered to be code for "we don't want to pay for workshop stuff ups any more"). It also makes reference that in June 2013 there were only 5 oils that met the 229.52 spec.

Ausmbtech

Refer to above docs I just posted. You need to look at your service invoices for the exact oil they used not just that it's Mobil 1 ESP. When the car was new there would have only been the genuine oil available, in June 2013 there were just 5 approved oils and now the list is growing but still limited.

Mobil 1 0w30 ESP is ok for Bluetecs
Mobil 1 5w30 ESP is NOT OK for Bluetecs

If the dealer has not used approved oils from the first service the fault will lay with them and they can put more pressure on MBUSA to come to the party than you can without taking it to court.
Either way MBUSA should have been more active in pointing out to dealers that the oil selection is critical for these engines. The normal way would be, in addition to bulletins, for it to be explained to techs when attending training courses on the new technology (Bluetec in this case) who in turn would go back to their dealers and share that info with other techs.

Carsy

More fuel for the fire.....Good stuff...

krd2023

I just went through all my dealer service invoices since 2010 (when I purchased the 2010 ML350 BLUETEC new and where all services were done), and this Mercedes Part # appears next to each oil change: Q1090143 , which represents MOBILE 1 ESP FORMULA MB 5W40. Are you showing and saying that this is not the correct oil for my 2010 ML350 BLUETEC ? Many thanks in advance!

Also, the higher viscosity of the 5W40 oil used throughout the life of my car runs thicker at higher temperatures. Too thick of an oil will inadequately lubricate components, eventually leading to engine damage. This is probably (and in part) why MBUSA doesn't recommend the MOBIL 1 ESP FORMULA MB 5W40 oil in OM642 Bluetec engines.

On a related note, here is yet another thread I've come across where numerous Bluetec owners are having costly issues stemming from oil coolant seal leaks as I also encountered: https://mbworld.org/forums/m-class-w...il-leaker.html

txjeep

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like your servicing dealer used the wrong oil.

GLKpaul

Thats an interesting development...