Another 2010 ML350 Bluetec engine seized
 

Status on any related class-action, recalls, or remedies please? I'm experiencing a Mercedes nightmare currently. My 2010 ML350 BLUETEC's engine just seized at 82K miles, all after regular dealer maintenance in Montana and after several major dealer repairs since 2010 (including AdBlue heater and oil cooler seal leak @ approx. 65K miles, leading to catastrophic engine failure last week). Mercedes says they'll do nothing to assist as my 50K-mile warranty has expired, so my attorney is sending MBUSA a Demand Letter. I'm happy to join forces with others of you who are experiencing, or have experienced, similar issues with Mercedes!

I bought this car new, was my first Mercedes, and I adhered to the dealer maintenance schedule and proper steps whenever a warning light came on. Ironically, not a single warning light was on prior to the engine seizing. MBUSA has denied me any assistance in writing, as has the dealer. I'm reading everywhere of similar oil leaks / pressure issues with this engine. I have a list of major dealer repairs I had done since I bought this car new. I would expect MBUSA to accept accountability and am really disappointed so far in MBUSA. For similar experiences, see also : http://www.mbca.org/forum/2015-02-11...y#comment-form and https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...ne-siezed.html

I don't think engine "seized" is a common failure. It is usaally a result of lack of oil like when the oil filter cap seal was not installed properly. Did you just have an oil filter change recently? Did you find out exactly what caused it to seize ? If its negligence by the dealer - you might be in luck (if you can prove it).

The oil cooler seal is a common failure but I havent heard of that causing a catastrophic engine failure (original seals). The original seals can leak but not at the amount that will drain your oil overnight. The oil cooler leaks will start to appear slowly by dripping in your driveway or garage (over a few months). I said "original seals" because anything can happen after the 1st repair. There are a LOT of seals/gaskets that need to be removed to get to the oil cooler seals. That means if you were unfortunate enough to get a bad mechanic - all bets are off. I'm leaning towards human error on this one.

+1
The oil cooler seals will make you loose oil but is easily noticed if you check your oil ever 2-3k like you should be doing anyway.
Would be interesting to find out what they say caused your failure.

Thanks for the two replies above. The dealer has said the engine seized due to low oil (about half-full) and some sludge. I haven't received computer readings yet to support this or why no indicator lights illuminated. I routinely check my oil along with the regular services.

KRD2023,

I would be interested to know :-

Was the oil capacity half full or showing half on the dip stick?

How long/ km was the car into the service interval ie since the last oil change?.

What brand & specification oil was the dealer using?.

What type of fuel were you using ? Any bio?

Is the car used for long or short trips mainly?

Good luck with MB.

JC

Is this exactly what the dealer said ? I hope you got that in writing because it really sounds fishy. Its like your doc saying ___ died because he had cancer and diabetic at the same time. Which is it? Did you check the engine after it seized ? Was there oil gushing out of the engine ? When was the last time you checked the oil before brought/send it to the dealer ?

Engines don't seize for no reason. Whilst sludge doesn't cause engine seizures it is a warning sign of something wrong and can contribute to oil starvation. Whilst there is sludge present you cant rely on oil level sensors, I have even seen a Merc showing oil too high on the dash whilst the oil was drained from the sump due to sludge in the sensor.

Benz engines are not known for sludging. If they sludge then you need to look at the service history, type and grade of oil used, the grade of the fuel used, coolant leaks (into the oil) and the crankcase breather system for blockages (usually only after sludging has already started). These are the main causes.

Have you ever manually checked the oil level?


These questions are a copy/paste from a previous bluetec sludge thread

How many services and at what mileages and dates were they performed?
What engine oil was listed on the invoice for each service?
Have you needed to topup the coolant AT ALL since you've owned the vehicle?
Do you do drive mainly in stop/go traffic or highways?
What do you estimate the distance you would travel for a average trip?
Have you ever had a warning on the dash to topup OR reduce the oil level?
Have you or do you use BIO diesel?

Thanks, all, for your input so far above. I check the oil in each of my vehicles at every other fueling. The oil in this vehicle showed always within acceptable levels. I heard a loud 'clacking' in the engine the day before the engine seized. Here is an attempt to answer some recent questions in this thread:


How many services and at what mileages and dates were they performed?
My answer: I followed the MB maintenance schedule at each 10,000-mile interval, with each service performed at my local MB dealer.

What engine oil was listed on the invoice for each service?
My answer: MOBILE 1 ESP is how the oil is listed for each of the changes (I have to assume the dealer used the oil specified in the owner's manual).

Have you needed to topup the coolant AT ALL since you've owned the vehicle?
My answer: no, and I'm not aware of the dealer having to top it off either.

Do you do drive mainly in stop/go traffic or highways?
My answer: my driving pattern is a fairly even mix of both city and highway.

What do you estimate the distance you would travel for a average trip?
My answer: around 10-20 miles in the city ; around 200 miles on the highway.
Have you ever had a warning on the dash to topup OR reduce the oil level?
My answer: I've had no warning lights ever appear related to the oil.

Have you or do you use BIO diesel?
My answer: I've never used BIO diesel.

There should be some evidence of damage from the "loud clacking" you mention when the engine is pulled down. ie oil pump failure, metal in the bottom of the sump etc.

Your lawyer should have all this info to present .

Where is the engine now? . Could an independent take a forensic look at it?

Good luck.

With those answers it sounds unlikely to be related to a maintenance issue, it sounds more like a mechanical failure.
If you are going to be chasing MB to assist then I suggest you contact them now regarding an engine replacement. If they aren't receptive to your request then I would recommend contacting a local professional engine builder or mechanical engineer to either disassemble and determine the exact cause of the seizure or preferably be present when your dealer pulls the engine down so you have an independent expert on your side in case it needs to end up in court.
You might be surprised, just the threat of having a engineer present when they pull the engine apart might be enough for them to realise you're serious and not just threatening to sue them but you're well prepared and wont be easy.

I really want to help but - can you answer my last 3 questions at least ?

My immobilized car has been sitting at my local MB dealer lot since April 26th while I've been awaiting word from MBUSA. I may consider an independent tech perform a forensic analysis soon. Thank you!

Thank you, your advice is very helpful and makes perfect sense. I'll consider these steps soon with my attorney.

I checked the oil level after the engine seized, and the oil level was showing about half-full on the dipstick. There were no signs of oil leaking since the oil cooler seals were replaced by dealer last year. I check the oil every other diesel fill-up.

Copy of May 15th, 2015 Demand Letter sent to MBUSA
 

I'll now be publicizing more information about my issue with MBUSA since I'm not receiving any response or assistance from MBUSA. To recap my issue, the engine seized in my 2010 ML350 Bluetec with 82K miles on April 26th. Both MBUSA and my local MB Dealer declined any assistance with the engine. On May 15th, I submitted a Demand Letter to MBUSA requesting reasonable assistance while detailing the car issues leading up to the engine seizure. I've since heard nothing from MBUSA despite a requested reply by May 22nd. Meanwhile, my car has been sitting immobilized at the MB Dealer's lot since April 26th. Thank you in advance for any further assistance or direction!

(I uploaded here a copy of my May 15 Demand Letter on 6/16/2015 as I've still not heard from MBUSA, seven weeks now after my ML350 Bluetec's engine seized).

()

Considering you purchased new and have a full service history you have very good grounds for getting the engine replaced free of charge. Let us know how it goes.

the oil cooler seal leak is not only on the bluetecs, i agree that there should be a class action lawsuit on this

have a 2008 ml320 135,000 miles and it has not had the oil cooler leak yet but everyone tells me it will eventually

i read several different mercedes forums and this is an issue that is discussed all the time

but the class action suit on the balance shaft issues did not help many people at all because so many were over the mileage of the settlement....

so i dont know, but i am not impressed that mercedes did not step up and take care of this issue themselves

sorry you have had so many problems with your car, surely mercedes will develop some common sense and help you

do they think it is normal for one of their motors with 82,000 miles on it and dealer maintenance to sludge up so bad the motor seizes??? that is crazy

I don't know how much it would cost to replace the engine, but I bet that will be far less expensive than paying a lawyer to litigate and an engineer to inspect. As much as it pisses you off (and would piss me off if I were in your shoes), I just don't see how it will be cost effective to litigate.

If you can get results by having your lawyer write a few letters, that's one thing. But, if you start to go at it with MB, you will almost instantly be upside down with legal and expert witness fees vs what you could ever hope to win. And MB knows it so I think a few letters isn't going to get it done.

This situation is a prime example of the adage "It doesn't matter how right you are, as soon as you hire a lawyer, you lose." Sad (not to mention completely unfair), but true.

Thanks, Dog hauler. Your advice sounds very reasonable and accurate. The dealer quote with labor to replace the engine is around $12,500. Trade-in value via Kelly Blue Book on the car today is around $20,000 with good engine and $8,000 with bad engine. The new car value when I made the purchase in 2010 was $55,000. I worked really hard to payoff this first Mercedes in four years through MB Financial. My attorneys are superb, but as you've alluded, they're not cheap.

I'm now in Week 7 since my car's engine seized and the car sits immobilized at the dealer lot. MBUSA is still unresponsive to our legal Demand Letter and to my requests for assistance. Yesterday, I test drove a new Mercedes from the same dealer and am now waiting to hear from MBUSA of a reasonable trade-in offer for my 2010 ML350 Bluetec with 82K miles and a seized engine towards a new MB purchase. I should be able to report more on this in the next few days.

Hmmm. Let's see: You had an engine seize at 82k miles despite meticulous maintenance, the dealer told you go scratch and MB told you go f**k yourself and the horse you rode in on. On top of that, other diesel engine failures I'm reading about on this board involved the same scenario only some them were under warranty and MB still told 'em to buzz off.

And you want to buy another MB? From the same dealer? Holy cow! Have you thought that through?

Yes, I'm between a rock and a hard place. As I see it, today I have two reasonable options: 1) proceed with litigation against a heretofore and still silent MBUSA despite my requests of assistance and Demand Letter, or 2) continue to demonstrate that I'm doing my best to remain a loyal MB customer. Buying another MB makes sense to me, while continuing to involve those privy to the matter for accountability purposes. I'll buy another MB if I'm given reasonable trade-in for my immobilized 2010 ML350 Bluetec. I'm certainly open to other suggested options, and thank you.

It's unlikely that the MB dealer is going to give you any more money for your crippled trade than any other dealer would, MB or otherwise. Go to another dealer...BMW, Audi, Land Rover, etc...and see what they'll do for you. And it makes sense to go to several other dealers to see what they'll give you on trade. One or more dealers just may not want to deal with it and it may take going to several before you find one that will.

You got a bad product and even worse customer service from MB. Why on earth would you go back for more? The only possible way it makes sense for you go back to that same dealer for another MB is if for some reason that dealer gives you a much better deal on the trade than the dealers from other marques will give you. Anything is possible, I suppose, but I bet that doesn't happen. And if it were me, the MB dealer would have to give me a very large amount more for the trade than would a dealer from another marque to cause me to go back for more punishment from MB.

You were screwed to the wall. It seems ill-advised to give MB another chance to sell you a bad product then follow it up with more terrible customer service. Sure, it pisses you off. It would make anyone angry. But it may be time to cut your losses and be done with the miserable experience that is MB.

Another possibility is to find a used motor and have it installed. That will no doubt cost much less than $12k and then you can just keep the car as you presumably intended to do before the motor went south.

And I forgot to mention, your litigation option isn't. There is no possible way to come out ahead on that deal. Your lawyer and expert witness fees will exceed the cost of the engine rebuild in about a week. And what on earth do mean by "accountability purposes?" Neither the dealer nor MB is accountable for anything here...they told you to screw off. And then giving them the opportunity to make another profit off your purchase of a shiny new MB isn't, I hate to tell you, holding them accountable for anything.

Vehicle History Report attached (names blacked-out)
 

Well, after sending the email below on 6/15 to MBUSA and including my dealer, I've still heard nothing from MBUSA but I did get a phone call from the owner of the dealership. The owner reiterated that his hands are tied and there is nothing he can do. He stated MBUSA usually gives the silent treatment in cases like this, and that MBUSA is virtually as unhelpful to him as they are to me. MBUSA is clearly not at all interested in keeping me as a customer. What's more surprising to me, they're not at all concerned about my word-of-mouth to family, friends, colleagues, and the public. Does MBUSA expect me and other conscientious MB owners to be okay with a well-maintained diesel Bluetec engine dying at less than 85K miles?!?!? The only options remaining from the dealer where my car sits are 1) trade-in the car for around $8,000 credit, or 2) have them replace the engine for around $12,500 with labor (neither of which is reasonable to me given my investment in this vehicle and prior maintenance/ repair history). Here is a copy of my email sent to MBUSA and the dealer yesterday:

(names have been withheld to protect privacy):

"June 15, 2015

Dear (After-Sales Operations Manager
Mercedes-Benz USA
Western Region),

Even though you’ve not acknowledged my June 8 emails below, you may be interested to know I’ve still heard nothing from MBUSA regarding my May 15 Demand Letter (please see attached copy again). It’s now Week 7 since my car is sitting immobilized with a seized engine on the (dealer) lot in (city), MT. Since I’ve heard nothing from MBUSA for weeks, I’ve begun a public campaign so others understand my dilemma and may assist in my resolution, as seen here:

https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...ne-seized.html

Rest assured, if MBUSA decides very soon to reasonably resolve my issue, I’ll gladly post a positive reflection.

I’m negotiating a new MB purchase with (dealer) this week, but only if MBUSA provides me with a reasonable trade-in value for my 2010 ML350 Bluetec. If I can’t arrive at an agreeable transaction this week, I’ll be moving in other directions to reach a resolution.

Thank you,
___"

The owner's hands are tied only to the extent MBUSA won't do anything. But they're not tied with respect to giving you a reasonable deal on the trade (and the only way you'll know one way or the other on that is to find out from other dealers what they'll give you for the crippled trade) to apply toward the purchase of a new MB at dealer cost . If the dealer won't do your next purchase so that he breaks even and no more it isn't because his hands are tied. It's because he's offering the same awful customer service as does the factory. Which would bring us back to the point of wondering why you'd go back to MB and this dealer for more punishment.

Keep in mind that some of these engine failures have been under warranty and MB still denied the claim. That should make all of us think before buying our next new car.

I noticed on the service report that there was no service done ie changing oil late in 2014 . The last service was in Sept 1013.

Accounting to the letter the oil was changed when they did the oil cooler and then again at 76

I wonder if when they did the oil cooler if they didn't actually change the oil or something. You would think that would have been noticed though at the 76k oil change as by then I am sure the oil drained would have been bad. But since they use the suction method the tech might not have noticed what was coming out of the car or how bad it looked. (I have no clue what machine they use at the dealer so maybe they can see) The diesel oil looks so bad after even a 20 minute idle (did a change that quick in my car) that maybe it would drain out some okay and look normal while leaving behind "sludge" or something.
The reason I wonder if they did it or not is I went through every MB document on the oil cooler job that I could find when doing it on my car earlier this year and found no mention of if you should change the oil after the repair or not. This could explain how on a car that seemed to be maintained well could possibly end up with sludge and a blown motor. Have you verified that the dealer you were using used the proper Diesel oil? I know that MB had some issues with some dealers putting the 229.5 oils in the Diesel cars for awhile. Heck back in 07 a dealer did it to my dads diesel but at least they owned up to it when I noticed a week later.

My comprehensive service detail reports (which are not uploaded here) do show 9 quarts of MOBILE 1 ESP FORMULA oil changed @ this 67K mile service when the oil cooler seals were replaced, by the same dealer who did all my services and who sold me the car new in 2010. In fact, I've done all scheduled maintenance by this same dealer and had the car serviced AT LEAST twice per year and within 10K mile intervals since I bought the car new. At each service interval and visit, I count on the dealer to perform diagnostics and advise me on what service is needed (including oil changes). The only service recommendation by the dealer I've ever declined was for them to add AdBlue, which I instead stock at home and do regularly to save expenses. This is why I'm so puzzled by MBUSA throughout this saga.

These are all good points and questions. As to the oil type, each of my detailed service records show MOBILE 1 ESP FORMULA, all done by the same dealer where I purchased the car new in 2010. I can only assume the dealer used the proper oil each time.

krd,

Maybe with a few phone calls may be able to form a relationship with a senior MB customer service person & have your problem listened too. Keep on asking for the dept. head.

It there is no response I would write an open letter to them & give it & the details of the problem to the local/national papers & TV news.

There is no way they can just completely ignore a customer & get away with it.

I come back to the noise you heard before the failure. It may have been a mechanical fault caused by poor engineering. I do suggest that an independent licenced auto mechanic dismantle the engine to see what that noise was & maybe ascertain MB liability. Better than spending money on lawyers. If you are going to replace the engine it will have to come out anyway & should not be too expensive just to remove the sump to check the oil pump & sludging & the heads & manifolds.

Good luck.

Here's the only correspondence I received from MBUSA, dated 4/30, on my current issue now in Week 7. The MBUSA email contains wrong information and I've since escalated the issue to no avail. The "16,369 miles since service" statement in the email is erroneous and contradicts my dealer service records (to which MBUSA has always had access). The representative first called me with this information, and then was extremely reluctant to email the information to me (which I was insistent upon) so I had it in writing:

"From: MBUSA_CAC@mbusa.com [mailto:MBUSA_CAC@mbusa.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 30, 2015 12:11 PM
To: _______
Subject: Message from Mercedes-Benz USA LLC

Dear Mr. ____
It was a pleasure speaking with you today.
To confirm our conversation, Mercedes-Benz is unable to offer assistance in regard to your engine concern. The request was reviewed at a local level by our field team, who looked into many factors including the 16,369 miles the vehicle was driven since the previous service.

SK
Case Manager
CAC Operations
Mercedes Benz USA, LLC
1-800-FOR MERCedes Ext ____
Fax (201)-476-6202"

I've also left voice mails as recent as this week (June 17) on cells of two MBUSA Operations Managers where I continue to receive no responses.

At this point there is no sense with being courteous if they keep denying accountability. I say go with aggressive legal action.
Look at it this way; it's either $12K+ out of your pocket for engine replacment (dealer cost for new engine is less than $5K), $40K+ for new car (counting trade-in of non running vehicle), or xx dollars in legal fees that should result in getting your car fixed or replaced. Personally I'd spend the money on the attorney as it may benefit others with similar issues - maybe even class action or lemon law, in which case it wouldn't come out of your pocket. And this would let MB know they get away with non-accountability and hoping it will just go away by ignoring it.

MBUSA Response Letter dated 6/11/15
 

I finally received a response from MBUSA (see attached*) this week to our May 15th Demand Letter (see copy in my 6/8/15 post in this thread), now in the seventh week since my car is still sitting immobilized at the local Mercedes dealership. MBUSA continues to drag their feet by snail-mailing their letter, dated June 11, only to my attorney knowing I may receive a copy several days letter (rather than complying with our reasonable request that MBUSA respond to our May 15th Demand Letter via email by May 22nd).
Two words come to mind to describe MBUSA’s stance when I read their attached response: apathetic and directionless. Ironically, the letter is signed off by NB in Retention yet there is not a single retention effort cited in the letter. MBUSA is clear on what they won’t offer me, yet I don’t see any offer or options to help resolve my MB dilemma.
It is also clear in the letter that MBUSA only addresses one of several items in our Demand Letter. They isolated their focus on the lemon law rather than addressing the requests we made in our letter, including a reasonable trade-in value to be considered towards a new MB purchase. It appears to me they just want me (and many of you) to go away.
Their letter clearly shows MBUSA has no interest in assisting me, and no interest in keeping me as a customer. MBUSA appears to be okay with the fact that some of their Bluetec diesel engines will achieve a marginal lifespan despite both regular maintenance and our substantial investment in each MB.

(* note that names and sensitive information have been blackened-out in the letters to respect privacy)

Can anyone please recommend a certified and available Mercedes tech in the western Montana (ideal for me) / northern Idaho / eastern Washington region who can assist me with this engine issue? I'm able to make time now to get a second opinion on what it will take to rebuild or replace my seized engine, while determining the cause of the engine failure. Any suggestions are appreciated, and thank you in advance!

Looking forward to hearing the results.

I for one would be very interested to know what an inexpensive oil analysis would turn up for status, particulate and possible "other fluids" in the oil. I'd be most curious to know if water or coolant has worked it's way in and created the sludge. It's also possible the crankcase venting is plugged or defective..

Good luck..

That reply from MB sound definitely sounds like they have considered the lemon law only and not the whole case. Unfortunately I think it's time to get a lawyer involved.....
I just hope MB aren't going back to the early 2000's with he "head in the sand" attitude that they finally shook off in 05/06.

Since I started this thread in April 2015, it's now August 3rd and I've still received no offer of assistance or remedy from MBUSA. I've recently determined, through research and from assistance by some of you, that MBUSA has provided financial assistance to some MB owners for out-of-warranty repairs on engines with similar issue(s) as mine. I'd appreciate any information from anyone reading this post who knows of similar occurrences where MBUSA has provided assistance for engine repair / replacement due to a premature failing. Please feel free to post publicly or privately to me!

And this link contains several more examples of poor quality assurance along with inadequate customer support from MBUSA, with similarities to my experience with MBUSA so far this year:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...es.html?page=2

:eek:

In an attempt to reach a resolution this year on my 2010 ML350 Bluetec engine failure, I'm actually negotiating a new Mercedes with the same dealer (in my hometown where it's convenient, while there are only two MB dealers in our entire state) while factoring a fair trade-in value on my immobilized 2010. I've recently requested MBUSA via email to assist in the transaction to no avail. The only word I've received from MBUSA in the last several weeks came two days ago via text from one of the Mercedes Benz After Sales Managers - USA, where I'll use his initials B.M. to respect his privacy. Our text exchange is quoted as follows (note: I only heard back from B.M. a day after my original text to him and only after my follow-up):

"Hi B.M., per my voice mail today, please email me - k...@......com and I'll reply with an important MBUSA update regarding my April engine failure. Thank you!

B.M., sorry to see there's still no word from you. I've escalated my issue accordingly to other personnel. -K

Hi K, once you had a lawyer send a demand letter to our corporate office, it was, is out of my control sir, sorry.

Thanks B.M., but surely you can understand that MBUSA was utterly unhelpful for weeks leading me to enlist attorneys (see my communication thread). I continue to demonstrate I'm willing to reach a resolution and buy another Mercedes. MBUSA continues to demonstrate that it's not willing to work with me at all. -K"

I've since gone straight to the top this week and I emailed the CEO of Mercedes Benz USA. I'll await a response and/or any further word from MBUSA to determine if I will buy another Mercedes.
:bow:

In thread within link below, starting with posts in 2014, you'll see concerns raised about Mobil 1 ESP oil in the Bluetec V6 engines like mine (and the same oil as recommended and used throughout the life of my engine which lasted only 82K miles), and the propensity of this oil to prematurely gel and cause problems. A common question too in various threads concerns whether or not the recommended 10K oil change intervals are too long, or in other words, recommended oil changes should occur at shorter intervals despite synthetic use. The oil gel or sludge may exacerbate mechanical issues associated with this engine. See common issues, as I've experienced, here:
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/gene...failure-2.html

KRD,
Surely you would not buy another Bluetec V6 engine powered car with the cloud hanging over their reliability?.

Any news from the mechanic who is pulling down the damaged motor?

Thanks for keeping us up to date on your progress.

John

I thought the same thing quite some time ago...I feel sorry for the guy (and hope I don't end up in the exact same spot), but at some point you cut your losses. Going back for more abuse just doesn't make sense.

Thanks, Carsy and Dog hauler. I won't buy another Bluetec until I'm convinced of significant design improvements, but I will still consider buying another Mercedes if MBUSA assists me with my existing issue soon enough. In my search of an engine replacement, the dealer informed me that design changes have occurred and that he can't locate that same engine (I'd be going with a modified engine if I do have it replaced, indicating Mercedes has recognized design flaws and has made changes since the 2010 ML350 Bluetec engine type).

I'd rather take my time and do the right thing rather than concede to MBUSA's unwillingness to help to date. Meanwhile, hopefully some good can come out of my experience by informing you and others of how MBUSA is treating some customers experiencing engine flaws / failures.

Well done, in the mean time do a relaxed look & a test drive or two in a few showrooms.

You may be surprised that MB is not the only car maker who can offer good engineering & driving experience.

John .

You can tell from reading this thread that MB excels at offering good engineering and driving experience. We should all hope that they are, in fact, the only car maker to offer such a stellar experience. Sadly, though, they're not.

Man, haven't you read this thread? MB engines are blowing up and MB customer (dis)service is giving owners the finger. My engine hasn't blown up (yet, anyway), but MB customer service nonetheless found ways to give me the finger.

"Man",I am speaking to suit myself .

My C Class diesel is almost 8 years old , has not had a problem ( touch wood) since coming out of warranty & nothing but niggles during. I service it myself so have had no contact with MB for 5 years.

My car " offers good engineering & driving experience".

I enjoying driving it every time I take it out.

I have read every word of this thread, young fella.

I presume that calling me "young fella" is supposed to be an insult, although I'm not sure why being a young man, all by itself, is something to insult. In any event, at 61, it's been quite a long time since I've been called "young fella." But I guess it's all relative.

Regardless, if what you read in this thread adds up in your mind to good engineering and driving experience (not to mention pleasant customer service), well, good for you. Still, your definition of those traits must be, shall we say, quite generous.

Truth-be-told, though, I'm glad your car is reliable. Reliability happens even to Yugos occasionally, I suppose.

"Young Fella" is a complement. At 68 I am entitled !!

I like to be generous.

Well, after having run my own business now since 2003, I maintain that I can't do business with an unresponsive entity. If MBUSA won't even acknowledge my August outreach attempt (where I'm also requesting their assistance with a new MB purchase!), I won't proceed with purchasing another MB product. Below is a copy of my August email thread, which I also forwarded via email to the CEO of MBUSA requesting that someone assist me, to which I've received no response to date (names have been altered to respect privacy):


"8/4/2015
Hi (owner of local MB dealership),
Would you please ensure I receive some sort of acknowledgement today from MBUSA of their receipt of my 8/3 email below? My 8/3 email to John F. bounced back to me, and John’s cell # 95_________ is inactive indicating he may no longer be employed by MBUSA. Additionally, Brian M. (spelling?) (MBUSA’s Western Regional After Sales Manager @ cell 9___________) texted me today indicating that since I have attorneys involved he’s unable to help me. I replied to Brian that the only reason I’ve involved attorneys is because MBUSA was unwilling to assist me at all for weeks (now months). I’ll be ready to resume our discussions on the new Mercedes purchase once I see an acknowledgement from MBUSA. Thanks for your continued assistance,

K______



8/3/2015
John F. and MBUSA,
I’m writing to inform you that my case against MBUSA is gaining momentum, and I’ve still not heard from MBUSA with any attempt to resolve my April 2015 engine failure (please see email thread below). Following is my public post today in my online thread which gives you an indication of my pursuit:
“
Since I started this thread in April 2015, it's now August 3rd and I've still received no offer of assistance or remedy from MBUSA. I've recently determined, through research and from assistance by some of you, that MBUSA has provided financial assistance to some MB owners for out-of-warranty repairs on engines with similar issue(s) as mine. I'd appreciate any information from anyone reading this post who knows of similar occurrences where MBUSA has provided assistance for engine repair / replacement due to a premature failing. Please feel free to post publicly or privately to me!”

as publicly found here:

https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...ml#post6515893

Finally, the kind folks at the _________ dealership here in _________ have been working with me to determine how to best credit my immobilized 2010 ML350 Bluetec towards a new Mercedes (dealership owner is on this email). Perhaps you will find it prudent at this juncture to assist me and the _________ dealership with this new transaction.

I remain available to discuss this matter and next steps whenever you’d like to contact me.

Best regards,

K______
4_________ cell "

I've been reading this thread with interest. With even minimal maintenance, any engine should last far in excess of 82k miles. What I find alarming are comments here that MB is allegedly denying claims on engines still in warranty. I have had my eye on a new GL, and was considering the diesel, but this thread has given me pause. Best of luck to the OP.

Pause is good. But perhaps "stopped me in my tracks" is a more prudent outlook...just sayin'. MB really needs to get a grip on customer service.

I purchased my first new to me 13 glk six months ago, i'm lovin the car but really concerened with this lack of simple communication and corporate cold shoulder the op is experiencing.

A car company (any decent company for that matter) should work with the client, work to a mutual conclusion through dialog, and although they may never agree, at least try.

I'll be watching as this goes forward..

Good luck op..

LOL, that's exactly what I meant.

So is the current Diesel engine (2015+) the same as the ones that are having problems? If not, what YM did the change occur?

Thanks

I too am shocked that MBUSA has closed and locked the door on me since April 2015, when my well-maintained 2010 ML350 Bluetec experienced engine failure at 82K miles. MBUSA has also been unresponsive in my attempts to involve them in negotiating a new Mercedes purchase as a resolution. As you can see in this post thread, I've exhausted efforts since April to amicably resolve the matter. Tomorrow, I'm meeting with my attorneys to discuss and pursue litigation options against MBUSA.

Good luck on the lawyer thing. As I previously pointed out, once you hire a lawyer you lose. There is maybe $12, $15k involved in getting the new motor and the legal expert witness fees will exceed that amount by many multiples very quickly. Anyone who tells you otherwise is naive. And anyone who believes that you'll be awarded legal fees after your "inevitable" win is just nuts. Under certain and very limited circumstances, you might be allowed to petition for fees after you win. Even if your case were to fit into one of those limited circumstances, you'd still have to convince a judge to give you the fees. And that's a crap shoot at best.

But don't take my word for it, even though I've been on both ends of a legal bill many times over the years, ask your lawyer. And if the lawyer says anything different from what I'm saying here, ask him to take the case on a fixed fee basis at whatever stupid low number he throws out. Good luck with that.

Now, if there is some hope of a class action suit, that's quite different because the possible recovery will be exponentially greater than whatever it costs to replace your single motor. And the lawyer will take the case on a contingency.

I'm not trying to discourage you. MB deserves to be whacked in matters like this. On the other hand, your car was out of warranty when the engine let go so the obvious question is why do they deserve it. That's very hard to answer from a strictly legal perspective, but from a customer relations angle, you'd think they'd treat people better. On yet a third hand, if the reports of warranty claims being denied for engine failures within the warranty period are true, then MB really needs to be whacked hard.

BTW, please be sure to let us know what your lawyer has to say tomorrow.

As a follow-up to my engine failure issue, here's an interesting source regarding other MB owners stating "as part of a regular service, Mercedes is fitting free of charge an enlarged 14l oil sump and amended crankshaft bearings on my car. The issue was mentioned by Pistonhead last June in the thread: “News! basically, a forum filler” and appears to be specific to 2010/ 2011 G350 Bluetecs which were delivered with a oil sump capacity of 9l. The oil caused by the Bluetec technology can thicken leading to insufficient oil supply for the crankshaft which might damage the crankshaft and in extreme cases the engine." This thread goes on to reveal "This issue may be more than just a sump and bearings replaced. I am aware of 3 AGOA members now that have had the entire engine replaced. There is also modification to the steering links for RHD's to accommodate the larger sump. One member had the Service Measure completed and then a couple of months later 'lost' number 5 piston and had to have the entire engine replaced.
If I were buying second hand I would be making sure that I bought from a dealer and negotiated an extended warranty. There is plenty on this issue on the AGOA forum or the SA Forum" : Please see these original posts here:
http://www.gwoa.co.uk/content/purcha...-engine-issues

Wow :eek: that is quite something, there must be a paper trail, parts have to be cataloged and taken in and out of inventory. If you can get somone to get you a copy you got a smoking gun in relation to your engine issue, would likely go a long way to get MB usa to want to open up.

So what is the outcome of the meeting with your lawyer? I'm very curious to know if litigation will be pursued or if that idea is abandoned as too expensive with an outcome too uncertain.

We're building a compelling case, only because MBUSA has been virtually silent and unresponsive since my April 2015 engine failure. Thanks for your input above, and I'll do my best to keep this thread updated until MBUSA decides to resolve my issue. My dilemma, expense, and time spent may at least help others in similar situations. I informed MBUSA months ago that I'll be very vocal and public unless and until they decide to reasonably assist me. Evidence continues to surface from several directions of engine defects in certain MB engines:

http://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-s...ction-lawsuit/

And another related article this year (March 2015) reinforces MB's engine issues .... "the accord stipulates that Mercedes will reimburse putative class members for repair costs they incurred to replace the allegedly defective engines and will cover future repairs on the parts at issue for the lesser of either 10 years or 125,000 miles. If the repair was not done at an authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer, class members will be reimbursed the actual amount paid or $4,000, whichever is less." as found here : http://www.law360.com/articles/63515...t-class-action

Even though the engine issues referenced above are mostly gas engine-related, the OM642 diesel engine in my 2010 ML350 Bluetec is also prone to issues. Wikipedia here describes common problems with this engine related to oil cooler leaks, positive crankcase ventilation system, and emission system failures all of which I've experienced (among other issues) with my ML350. The following data on the OM642 diesel engine is taken directly from Wikipedia here:

"Production
The engine is manufactured at the Daimler AG plant in Marienfelde, Berlin, Germany.[4]

Due to the inordinate number of pre-2010 OM642 engines needing repair due to heat-related seal degradation causing oil cooler leaks, Mercedes reformulated the seals from an orange color rubber to a purple color Viton seal now used in all 2010 and later engines. There is a Mercedes Technical Service Bulletin that states that the leak can be attributed to an improperly installed seal.[5] This engine also has an inherent design flaw with the TWC temperature sensor (part no. A005 153 40 28) and the part in the electronic parts catalog is now specifying part no. A007 153 74 28; there is no recall on this service item yet. A check engine light may present with the OBD-2 diagnostic code P2031 upon failure of this sensor.[6]

Oil specification MB 229.51 or MB 228.31 is recommended, for the bluetec engine in the G w463, GL x164 and Ml w164 the oilspec. is 229.52 class.[7]

In addition to the oil cooler seals; this engine can also have an issue with the design of the positive crankcase ventilation system. The crankcase ventilation system vents to the inlet of the turbo. The issue is that the air vented from the crankcase contains too much oil to easily pass through the swirl motor valves downstream of the turbo. Once this oil and sludge begin to accumulate, the valve becomes inoperative and blows a fuse that controls many other sensors required to properly operate the engine and emission system. This will immediately place the vehicle into limp home mode and limit the rpm to 3000. It also causes a check engine light and numerous OBDII Codes. Mercedes Benz has previously recognized this feature of the vehicle and has stated that this engine feature, the accumulation of oil at the turbo inlet, is "normal". In a Technical Service Bulletin they issued in 2008 they state: "Engine oil venting occurs on the right hand side of the engine air intake duct. For this reason there is always some oil in the engine air intake duct, see (Figure 3). This is no justification for replacing the turbocharger. Turbochargers replaced for this reason will not be covered by warranty."[8] While a slight amount of oil may be normal and acceptable, sufficient quantities and accumulation will indeed lead to other failures as identified above."

"MB owners stating "as part of a regular service, Mercedes is fitting free of charge an enlarged 14l oil sump and amended crankshaft bearings on my car."

If accurate, that does sound like tacit admission that there is a design problem relating to the oil circulation system. This was posted a little over a year ago. It would be very interesting to see if the oil capacity increased in the 2015 or later models. I could not find that info in the MB site. Does anyone know if it takes more oil to do an oil change on newer models?

Hopefully the proper low-ash spec snythetic oil had been in use... if not... shame on who?

Since I started this thread in May of this year, I remain perplexed at MBUSA’s virtual silence as it relates to my attempts to resolve a premature engine failure on my 2010 ML350 Bluetec with OM642 engine (which, as you can see from several reliable online sources, is an engine prone to problems). I’ve gone so far as to offer to buy another MB from the same dealer if MBUSA helps negotiate a fair trade-in value, yet MBUSA won’t engage. Here is my status update including some revelations as of today, now almost 5 months since the engine seized and my ML350 Bluetec continues to sit immobilized on the local MB dealer lot:

- The MB-recommended oil, Mobil 1 ESP from the dealer, was used throughout the life of the car and changed at 10K mile-recommended intervals and when the dealer recommended an oil change at services (where dealer services were done at least twice per year since I bought the car new). The oil level on dipstick was within safe operating ranges at all times (before and after the engine seized, and oil level was checked by me at frequent intervals). If oil changes on this car should be done more frequently, then MB shouldn’t recommend this 10K mile interval in the owner’s manual and maintenance booklets. Since 2010, I see that Mobil 1 ESP is no longer the recommended oil (and sources show it’s prone to sludging), the MBUSA Western Regional After Sales Manager I was dealing with no longer works for the company, and the service technician in charge of my car services at my local dealer no longer works there, the dealer can't locate an OM642 for engine replacement because of necessary engine modifications since 2010 and stated that I'll need to go with a different engine model, all for mysterious reasons to me.
- I’ve realized from recent research that I paid partially or fully for premature repairs since 2010 which should have been fully-covered by MBUSA and/or the dealer, including repairs involving glow plugs, adblue heater and pump, oil coolant seal leaks, a lunge or surge while driving sometimes from 1st gear to 2nd but never diagnosed, the engine “stuttered” when first accelerating at random times, battery replaced twice (indicating faulty electrical system but never diagnosed), and more, all of which is documented on dealer letterhead and accessible in MBUSA systems.
- As indicated prior in this thread, the only recent response I’ve received from MBUSA was a standard letter indicating they deem my car is not a lemon and will therefore not provide me with any assistance.

I've read more into the recall for the G-Wagons and a bit more into the differences between the Bluetec and non-Bluetec engines.

It appears that it's not a engine fault as such, but a oil longevity/suitability issue for Bluetec variants only. Bluetec isn't used world wide, it's only used in markets were they have lower limits for NOx. The process does increase oil temps and the chemical "stress" that the engine oil is exposed to. This is shortening the oil life and increasing the risk of sludging compared to a non-Bluetec engine. The engine failures are cause by crank/rod bearing seizure due to compromised lubrication (starvation and/or reduced oil film strength). Short or slow trips would amplify the issue due increased exhaust system regeneration.

The fact that there is a recall for the G-wagens regarding this exact issue shows MB are aware of the issue. Their solution is to add an additional 5L (more than 50% increase) of oil capacity to increase oil longevity.

MB also specify that a specific oil be used that is Bluetec compatible even though it still has the same "sheet number" of 229.51 that the non-Buetec diesels require. ref http://m.mercedes-benz.com.au/conten...ngine_oil.html (G350 is the only Australian model with Bluetec at this stage)

Now would be a good time to consult your lawyer.
You now know MB are aware of the sludging issue and have issued a recall on a vehicle with the same engine/emission system fitted.
You know that MB specified a unique oil to be used on Bluetec models only (was this actually used during servicing and did MB specifically notify dealers of this requirement as it's very much buried in the fine print).
If MB didn't/couldn't fit a larger sump to the ML then they should have revised their service intervals accordingly.

With these 3 points you would have a very good case and MB has very little defense. I doubt you'll get MB assistance without a lawyer involved now.

Thanks for the update, keep us posted

Excellent info Ausmbtech. thank you.

Thank you, Ausmbtech. Your input is very helpful to me and several others reading this. It helps my case as I'm consulting with several attorneys currently and my legal filing is imminent. Costs and evidence continue to mount against MBUSA because of their unwillingness to work with me.

I wish you all the luck in the world on the legal front, but I'm very curious to know how you plan to ever come out ahead financially. Did you find a lawyer to take the case on a contingent fee? Is your lawyer working this up into a class action? I hope so because that's the only way I can see this won't bleed you dry (unless your pockets are way deep and the legal bills mean less than the principle...in that case, or in either case, really, good for you. Go get 'em.)

And may your lawyer kick a little extra butt for me on account of the way MB customer service treated me.

Here are some docs to show there is a different oil specified by MB for Bluetec 642 engines.

Doc 1, page 1, right hand column, show only 229.52 oil may be used. Also footnote #4 on page 4 shows same info

Doc 3, page 2, shows a sole spec oil approved for Bluetec engines (EU6/BIN5)

Doc 4 is a current list of 229.52 oils. Note that Mobil 1 ESP is only approved as a 0w30 and not any other viscosicity

Doc 5 is a bulletin pointing out the different oil requirement "due to recent events" (widely considered to be code for "we don't want to pay for workshop stuff ups any more"). It also makes reference that in June 2013 there were only 5 oils that met the 229.52 spec.

Refer to above docs I just posted. You need to look at your service invoices for the exact oil they used not just that it's Mobil 1 ESP. When the car was new there would have only been the genuine oil available, in June 2013 there were just 5 approved oils and now the list is growing but still limited.

Mobil 1 0w30 ESP is ok for Bluetecs
Mobil 1 5w30 ESP is NOT OK for Bluetecs

If the dealer has not used approved oils from the first service the fault will lay with them and they can put more pressure on MBUSA to come to the party than you can without taking it to court.
Either way MBUSA should have been more active in pointing out to dealers that the oil selection is critical for these engines. The normal way would be, in addition to bulletins, for it to be explained to techs when attending training courses on the new technology (Bluetec in this case) who in turn would go back to their dealers and share that info with other techs.

More fuel for the fire.....Good stuff...

I just went through all my dealer service invoices since 2010 (when I purchased the 2010 ML350 BLUETEC new and where all services were done), and this Mercedes Part # appears next to each oil change: Q1090143 , which represents MOBILE 1 ESP FORMULA MB 5W40. Are you showing and saying that this is not the correct oil for my 2010 ML350 BLUETEC ? Many thanks in advance!

Also, the higher viscosity of the 5W40 oil used throughout the life of my car runs thicker at higher temperatures. Too thick of an oil will inadequately lubricate components, eventually leading to engine damage. This is probably (and in part) why MBUSA doesn't recommend the MOBIL 1 ESP FORMULA MB 5W40 oil in OM642 Bluetec engines.

On a related note, here is yet another thread I've come across where numerous Bluetec owners are having costly issues stemming from oil coolant seal leaks as I also encountered: https://mbworld.org/forums/m-class-w...il-leaker.html

If I am reading this correctly, it sounds like your servicing dealer used the wrong oil.

Thats an interesting development...

According to any technical document from MB Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP is not an approved oil for any Bluetec engine.

However, if you look at the online owners manual on the MBUSA website for a M-class 2010-current the spec given in there is incorrect and doesn't match the technical/workshop documentation as provided above. If the physical owners manual have this incorrect info then normally there would be a service measure to put a sticker with the correct info over the incorrect info in the owners manual.

Here is an additional document to also show that MB are aware engine are needing to be replaced. from reading this document they are obviously replacing engines often enough that they produced this bulletin to point out other items they suggest checking/replacing when the engine is replaced.

I reconnected with MBUSA today (9/22/2015) after five months of my car sitting immobilized after its OM642 engine seized (on my well-maintained 2010 ML350 BLUETEC with 82K miles that I bought new and had serviced regularly by the same dealer). I also had a good meeting last week with my MB Dealer owner. I'm being told by MBUSA and my MB Dealer that my case is being reviewed by MBUSA again this week, and I'm hopeful for a final resolution very soon outside of the courts. This after months of me presenting my case to MBUSA of compounding car issues in and out of the 50K-mile warranty since 2010 (including oil cooler seal leaks and repair, glow plugs replaced, emission control issues with adblue heater and pump failures, transmission lunges, engine knocking when cold towards the end of its life, and most recently the determination that the wrong oil-type was used at the MB Dealer at each and every oil change at the recommended 10K-mile intervals). Since I started this thread in May 2015, I've been in contact with several attorneys, some of which are interested in representing me in different capacities. I want to thank each and every user on this thread who posted (publicly and privately) useful information for my case and for others experiencing similar issues. Special thanks so far go to users Carsy, 20swrt, Ausmbtech (for extra-helpful input regarding oil-types!), clvincent, Dog hauler (for free legal advice!), samaritrey, GLKPaul, and txjeep. In my opinion and as shown in this thread, this public forum has served a good purpose: to pool useful information from experts around the globe to solve a problem(s) experienced by others while helping others. Regardless of my outcome, good work has been accomplished here, and thanks again.

Thanks, krd, but it's not legal advice. Just a couple of observations anyone whose been around the litigation block could make and a little arithmetic.

I must say that after all this time spent ignoring you, I'm shocked that MB looks to be in the very early stages of paying attention. On the other hand, "we're reviewing your case" may well end up being lip service just to make you think they actually gave some consideration to the matter instead of summarily blowing you off.

You'll see soon enough. Good luck.

Excellent news, I have a feeling its not 'if' but 'when' you get action at this point, we all hope its sooner than later, keep us updated..

True enough, ive seen this before (not MB related) from a lawyer yet, if you can't trust a lawyer ..... :v: ... now i'm just being badddd.... :D

Since my post in this thread last week, indicating I was hopeful for an out-of-court resolution with MBUSA, I received a “cease and desist” letter from MBUSA Counsel via overnight FedEx demanding I cease all contact with MBUSA. I plan to post a copy of this absurd letter from MBUSA, along with my attorney’s response, in redacted versions when ready and cleared. The MBUSA letter contains many factual errors and false claims. The letter reiterates from initial correspondence that “… you were informed that MBUSA would not provide you with any financial assistance toward the engine repairs because you failed to properly maintain the vehicle’s engine at the appropriate service intervals as is required by the terms of the vehicle’s limited warranty.”… which is nonsense and is not consistent with MB records from regular dealer services. The letter also states that “… MBUSA’s position regarding the repairs to your vehicle’s engine remains unchanged” which is to do / to have done absolutely nothing, despite my presentation of facts and data which counter their position. I’m not surprised by MBUSA’s action here (as it’s consistent with how they’ve treated me since my car’s engine failure in April 2015) yet I am extremely disappointed in them. MBUSA has had every opportunity over the last five months to make this right. It is now clear that I have no other choice but to proceed with legal action, and to reasonably make clear to my friends, family, and colleagues of MBUSA’s mistreatment stemming from their premature product failure in my case.

That would have the me the most idiotic response from MB that I've ever heard. :smash::smash::smash:

Unfortunately it sounds like your lawyer will be handling it from here, I hope you continue to have the patience to get to the end, although I doubt it will involve MB ownership once it's finalised after this treatment.........

That MB is once again telling to go f**k yourself, and the horse you rode in on, isn't surprising. But, a cease and desist letter seems completely inappropriate in this situation. Okay, they're done with you. Send you a letter telling you that and further saying that they will ignore all future attempts to contact them. That makes sense if they want to be done with you. But a cease and desist? That's just stupid.

And why post only a redacted version of what MB sent you? You've done that before and I can't figure it out. Communications between adversaries is not privileged in any fashion. What on earth are you trying to protect by not posting the MB communications in their entirety? Especially now that MB told in very strong terms: Go away, idiot. You're a PITA. What don't you understand about WE'RE NOT GIVING YOU ONE DIME. NOT NOW. NOT EVER.

And, as always, I'm really curious to know how the economics of suing MB makes any sense...the same question as before: how can you win when you must spend untold thousands of dollars on legal fees, expert fees, and countless other costs associated with litigation vs. putting a new motor in your car for probably well less than $20k?

I hope you go after MB with a vengeance. Couldn't happen to nicer folks. But, they have endless money and an army of lawyers. That typically makes for a story that doesn't end well for adversaries. And if there was ever any doubt in your mind that you're an adversary when it comes to MB, you surely see now that is the case.

krd,

Very disappointing.

Do you think a detailed explanation of the events to the media would make a difference to their attitude?.

Every company selling products is sensitive to bad publicity.

Do you have an automobile ombudsman who could represent you?.

"An automobile ombudsman?" What on earth is that? It sounds quite touchy-feely...perhaps some new Obama program I haven't yet heard about?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ombudsman

We have them in our fine country.

I use one last week to sort out an incorrect electricity bill .Also departments of fair trading help the consumer in advanced countries :)

The dealer may be the weak link now, if you have them putting in the wrong oil sue them, not as deep pockets and likely an easier win..

Sorry to hear this... We're behind you... Kick their ass :discus:

You bet, you can sign up on the website and,,,.... Oh..,,... :stick:... The sites kinda down right now, :D:D:D:D sorry couldn't help myself, i can mock the canadian made obama site can't i :p:

Well not here, unless maybe in the land of fruit and nuts on the left coast. In any event, it doesn't sound like MB is likely to experience any kumbaya moments any time soon.

While my attorneys are preparing our response to MBUSA’s recent “cease and desist” letter sent to me last week, I’ve attached the 9/21/2015 MBUSA letter here to hopefully help others and provide more insight (with names partially blacked-out to respect privacy). The letter is troubling on several fronts and contains many false claims, all of which will be countered by us soon enough. Meanwhile, it’s important to note some glaring items of concern:

1) My auto on record with MB is a 2010 (not 2011) ML350 Bluetec as stated incorrectly by MB’s Counsel.
2) In paragraph 2, the correct word used should have been “occasionally” rather than “incessantly” in reference to me contacting MBUSA. In fact, I occasionally contacted certain MBUSA employees and departments then subsequently (while cordially, as records show) escalated the matter to MBUSA’s CEO since no one was replying to my presentation of data as revealed in this thread. In essence, MBUSA has chosen to disregard their own data I’ve presented which show cause(s) of my auto’s engine failure. MBUSA has not and will not engage in dialogue with me concerning the issue. By the way, no one asked me to stop contacting MBUSA prior to this “cease and desist”.
3) I’m offended by the letter on several fronts including MBUSA’s reference to them contacting “local law enforcement” if I contact MBUSA again.

Best way forward would be to sue the dealer as they didn't service the vehicle as per the factory requirements which in turn caused the engine failure. It's up to them if they want to then chase MBUSA for the costs.

I have been watching this thread with interest over the last few weeks as I too have had the engine on my 2011 E350 Bluetec seize up. I had a large oil leak back in January which turned out to be the oil cooler. The car is no longer under warranty as there was 156,000 kilometers on it. The MB dealership did not replace the cooler but repaired it to the tune of $2800.00 CDN (2200.00 USD at the time). Oddly enough there is every charge imaginable on the invoice except the oil and what type it was, so obviously I would have no recourse there. Admittedly I did not have the car in for scheduled servicing on time even though I did try and make an appointment three different times but was getting dates so far out that I could not commit to them. Obviously Mercedes takes no responsibility for the faulty engine and does not want to make any consolation because of neglect on my part. Not great customer relations especially when this is my 4th Mercedes and I still have the 2005 E320 CDI with 380,000 KM. I maintain our vehicles pretty well as I require reliable transportation for long trips. This oil cooler issue is a major problem from what I can tell as this is causing the warning sensors to fault, thus the engine has lots of time to create undetected and VERY costly problems for the owner of these finicky diesel engines that Mercedes swears by.
I ran into another person Friday night who had the exact same problem with a GL350 BT. Again, no help from the manufacturer!

MBUSA's attitude is really odd considering the info presented.
If they actually looked at the bigger picture and realised this is a growing issue they would offer to replace the engine and then charge it back to the dealer (as they caused the failure by incorrect servicing). This would make the owner happy, absolve head office from paying for the engine an send a unforgettable message through the dealer network as to the expected result if they continue to incorrectly service these vehicles.
Any half intelligent dealer would then be calling any Bluetec customers they have for a "free" oil change to get the vehicle in to check for sludging and put to correct oil to prevent any further charge backs.

Our response to MBUSA’s ludicrous “cease and desist” letter dated 9/21/2015 (and as posted prior in this thread) is going out this week to MBUSA’s Counsel, Mr. B. Benson, with copies going to Mr. S. Cannon (MBUSA’s CEO) and to the owner of the Montana dealership from where my new car was purchased and where all vehicle services were performed. Meanwhile, we’re forging ahead with our legal options. A redacted version of our response to MBUSA’s “cease and desist” is as follows:

October 5, 2015
Mr. B. Benson
Counsel
MERCEDES-BENZ USA, LLC
303 Perimeter Center North, Suite 202
Atlanta, GA 30346
SENT VIA U.S. MAIL
CERTIFIED, RETURN RECEIPT
Re: Mr. D’s 2010 ML 350 BLUETEC engine failure

Dear Mr. Benson:
Mr. D has received your letter requesting he cease and desist from contacting anyone at MBUSA.
Please note that Mr. D intends to honor your request. However, your letter contains numerous
inconsistencies which necessitate this response to rectify the internal record that MBUSA no doubt is
compiling on Mr. D
Initially, you inaccurately state Mr. D’s vehicle, please note he in fact owns a 2010 ML350
BLUETEC. Further, Mr. D is a very well-respected businessman and community member here in
Montana and the insinuation that he has been harassing individuals at MBUSA is simply inaccurate. At
no time was Mr. D ever informed to stop contacting MBUSA employees until he received your
letter – had he been so instructed, he of course would have honored such request. Mr. D’s actions in
occasionally contacting MBUSA employees was an attempt to get MBUSA to do the right thing as
MBUSA’s authorized center (dealership name here) utilized the wrong oil in Mr. D’s car. This presumably is
what led, in part, to the catastrophic failure, yet MBUSA takes no responsibility for this mishap despite
its statement in the official Mercedes-Benz Maintenance Booklet that: “Your authorized Mercedes-
Benz Center can ensure that your vehicle is professionally and thoroughly serviced and repaired.”

What is most astounding is that a company like MBUSA decides to ignore a legitimate request from a
customer and respected community member and rather to rely on a patently false, or at least careless,
recitation of maintenance records to conclude Mr. D’s vehicle was improperly maintained. A very
cursory review of Mr. D’s service records clearly demonstrates that he serviced his 2010 ML350
BLUETEC in accordance with Mercedes requirements. In fact, Mr. D serviced his vehicle at 10,211
miles, 19,603 miles; 30,070 miles; 40,264 miles; 50,875 miles; 59,081 miles; 67,418 miles; and 76,094
miles, after which the vehicle critically failed at approximately 82,000 miles. MBUSA maintains that Mr. D’s vehicle was improperly maintained purportedly because of reference that the vehicle was “7000 miles past due” on a service when it critically failed. However, Mr. D took his vehicle to (dealership name here) – an authorized
Mercedes-Benz Center – where (dealership name here) replaced leaking seals and changed the oil. See Exh. A showing this service detail.
As such, it is clear that (dealership name here) simply forgot to reset the sensor and MBUSA is unjustified in relying on this error in its rejection of Mr. D’s legitimate requests. MBUSA’s position regarding Mr. D’s repairs is misplaced as it is clear now that (dealership name here) – an
authorized Mercedes-Benz Center – used Mobile 1 5W-40 ESP oil which is not an approved oil for Mr.
D’s vehicle. However, rather than investigating or attempting to do the right thing, MBUSA accuses
Mr. D of being “less than respectful and demanding.”
Regarding your assertion that MBUSA has “been very patient” and “made every possible effort to
address [Mr. D’s] claims” is simply unsupportable. The record is replete with attempts by Mr. D to get any response whatsoever from MBUSA; however, MBUSA and its “dedicated employees” failed
to respond whatsoever.
I once again reiterate that Mr. D fully intends to comply with your heavy-handed and unjustified
request to cease and desist; however, I must note that a simple request would have sufficed.
Threatening criminal action on an esteemed community member, successful business owner, volunteer,
father, and husband truly demonstrates the character and values of MBUSA.
While the gesture that MBUSA will honor Mr. D’s warranty is facially appealing, it is inconsistent
with MBUSA’s actions. Unfortunately MBUSA’s actions of denying, failing to investigate, accusing
Mr. D of harassment and failing to maintain his 2010 ML350 BLUETEC have left him with no
option but to warn other would-be MBUSA customers. It is simply incomprehensible how a luxury
automobile manufacturer can be satisfied with a reputation that its vehicles will fail in less than 80,000
miles despite diligent maintenance.
It is unfortunate this matter was not settled amicably and that a customer was not respected. It is equally
unfortunate that MBUSA will not stand behind the actions of its authorized service centers when clear
errors were made.

Please place this letter in your file as a counter to your letter’s baseless and inaccurate statements.
Thank you.
Very truly yours,

(Mr. D’s law firm)

Too conciliatory in my humble opinion.

Good luck with it all .

John.

+1

I would have liked a larger hammer with firmer statements.

Whats next krd2023?

What's next for me will be 1) short term, now shifting legal focus onto the dealer from where I bought the car new and had all routine services and repairs performed. This is unfortunate because I live in a small town and have much respect for the owner of the dealership, yet MBUSA and the dealer have given me no choice during this now 6 month ordeal but to pursue recourse legally. I had expected MBUSA to take initiative and work with the MB dealer to arrive at a reasonable resolution for me rather than ignore me; and 2) long term, continue to gather interesting and compelling data for a probable class action suit against MBUSA given the systemic issues with the Year 2010+ OM642 MB engines.

Additionally, thanks to recent input from Carsy, GLKpaul and others, our attorneys have inserted our Demand portion into our response to MBUSA's Cease and Desist. In our response draft as found in thread above, we amended the date to 10/13/15 and inserted this portion towards the end of our response to MBUSA:
If MBUSA is at all concerned about doing the right thing for a loyal customer and correcting the
mistakes upon which it has wrongfully based its refusal to assist Mr. D, then we request a new 2016
ML350 (either Bluetec or gas injected) to fairly compensate Mr. D for his lost time, loss of vehicle,
several months of inconvenience and communication attempts, cumulative maintenance/repair costs,
and Mr. D’s overall investment in a vehicle with no current value.
Again, our full response to MBUSA's Cease and Desist is being sent via certified mail this week to B. Benson, MBUSA's Counsel, with copies going to S. Cannon (CEO of MBUSA) and to the owner of the local MB dealership.

This is the most scandalous story I've came across in years of reading automotive forums!
I found this searching for timing chain stretch, for which my local dealer wants to rip me off on a OM642 W164 2005 with 200kkm on clock.

Any news meanwhile ?

Re: My 2010 ML350 BLUETEC with engine failure in April 2015 with 82,000 miles after routine dealer services at same MB dealer since car was new.

The MB dealership owner promptly returned my call yesterday. I contacted him this week to determine what options remain given recent correspondences. I asked him if he received copies of MBUSA's Cease and Desist and my attorneys' reply to it (also as attached prior in this thread). He acknowledged he had. I asked if his position had changed at all given our recent determination that his dealership used the wrong oil type at each and every oil change. He said his techs believe the Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP used would not lead to engine damage, nor would it compound the myriad of issues I had with the car leading to its engine failure. He stated he's not clear why MBUSA doesn't list this oil as an approved oil for this OM642 Bluetec engine. He reiterated my options with him: I can trade-in my car as-is for an approximate $7,000 value, or he can repair / replace the engine for around $12,000 parts and $3,000 labor (my car's value with a good engine and in overall good condition would trade-in for around $20,000+). Again, neither his dealership nor MBUSA will provide any financial assistance towards these repairs or other remedies related to the engine failure. All expenses would be out of my pocket since, according to MBUSA, the engine failure was outside of my car's 50,000-mile warranty.

Well, i'd like to know what your lawyers opinion is speaking of the likelyhood of success or strength of your case (from the lawyers chair) and id launch suit against the dealer for improper servicing (it makes no difference what his techs say if MB does not list it) and name MBUSA as a material witness to state in court they don't support that oil in that engine. You could do it in small claims court go for the max allowed (its 25k here) and ask for costs, if you walk out with 15k and costs your close without the drama of big (expensive) court.

My 2 pennies

+1 .Sounds to be a sensible, logical & practical suggestion.

Considering the engineers who designed the engine state clearly otherwise and have done so from the moment the engine was released and have reiterated it many times since in light of problems that have arisen from not following their recommendation, I think I know who I'd be trusting. They didn't change their recommendation after problems started emerging, it has remained completely unchanged. The only change to any bulletins is that more oils have met their specifications.

Going after MBUSA is going to be difficult. I'd be going after the Dealership and let them chase MBUSA if they want to. If they came back with something like "we didn't realise we were using the wrong oil, we now use the right oil on all Bluetecs" I'd be more sympathetic, with that answer I wouldn't feel bad going after them.

As a long time Mercedes-Benz owner (currently own 3) I found this thread to be fascinating. None of it surprises me.

A doctor friend of mine owns a 2013 Mercedes-Benz GL350 BlueTEC 4MATIC which has experienced numerous oil leaks after its warranty expired. Although the car only has 62,000 miles (12K out of warranty) he's dealer acknowledged that these leaks were well documented by owners and MBUSA. That said, they stated that repairs could only be performed solely at his cost. They offered him absolutely no terms or compensation of any type, not even a discount to perform the repairs needed. It was like, oh well you're out of warranty so you're out of luck.

He is a first time MB owner and swears he will never own another one. He also makes it a point to tell everybody he comes in contact with the same.

Pretty unbelievable the MB seemingly doesn't care about its owners and their experiences with them and their vehicles. A handful of bad experiences can affect the perception of hundreds if not thousands of people. Certainly not the brand attribute that I'd want associated with my products or brand.

Curious what your ultimate outcome will be.

Best of luck.

My motor hasn't blown up (yet), but I'm unfortunately very familiar with MB's awful customer service. I'm certainly done with MB once I sell my GL. I hope the next manufacturer is better but that will be a real crap shoot.

It's like cell phone companies. Over the years, I've tried them all in a largely unsuccessful search for a good one who offers decent cell signal and customer service. On the other hand, I'm now with Verizon and their signal (at least in the places I go) and customer service are better than anything I experienced with with any other company, although that is a very low bar. ATT was probably the worst. What's their advertising tag line...No Bars in More Places? Man, I got really tired of having no service when the person standing next to me is chatting away without issue. That's off the topic a bit, but I guess what I'm getting at is that I hope the next marque will be better than MB.

Hi there! I'm currently thinking on buying a w204 but still unsure on what engine I should be looking at. I have been driving petrol engines for the past 10 years having around 230 bhp. On the other hand it's my first modern Benz. I'm now ready to experiment and looking for a 2013 or a later but sticking to w204. What can you suggest? I need the car as an alternative transport to my motorbike and don't do track days.
Help much appreciated !

I can't speak for the longevity of the 2013 and above Mercedes-Benz C-Class (W204) only that I own a 2013 with the 1.8 gas turbo and I love the car. It's my daily commuter and the thing is very zippy (quick) for a small 4-banger. Everyone who's driven it or ridden in it comments on that. The gas milage is great as well — about 27-28 average. I really don't miss a V6 at all. In fact, for most driving situations, I like it better than my other two (2013 E350 and 2007 CLK350 convertible). I'm just hoping it holds up as well as my past MBs — I got 18 years and 250,000 miles out of my '98 E320. :y

Rather than hi-jacking this thread :slap: you'd be well advised to withdraw and post your own thread so you can get assistance....

Today I'm ending this 6-month old experiment with Mercedes Benz USA. After having been a loyal MB customer for 5 years, I now don't see myself ever owning a Mercedes again. I've given MBUSA every opportunity to accept some accountability and to help make things right. I'll accept the sizable loss on my 2010 ML350 BLUETEC with a seized engine at 82K miles (in April) after routine dealer maintenance and thousands of dollars in repairs already. The first luxury car I purchased new and worked hard to payoff early. A renowned brand and company that let me down. A $55,000 car I purchased new in 2010 with a current trade-in value of $8,000 with a seized engine. I'm ready to hand over the keys and move onward. I'm trading-in my immobilized MB for a new car at a different dealership, and my new car is not a Mercedes Benz.

So what's the status of the legal action?

I have had our dealer call me back 5 times to discuss the status of my car and they will not entertain any compromise whatsoever. The car has sat in their lot now for 6 weeks and no headway in negotiating a new trade-in and of course no cash offer as this would be too embarrasing on their part. How can they justify a 25k "remanufactured" engine for a car that is 5 years old and only offer 8k on a trade. They know there is an issue with this engine and oil cooler as well as the oil that was recomended but refuse any accountability which is totally wrong.Even if they would meet somewhere in the middle I would be satisfied as I have really enjoyed this vehicle. They should have known there would be an issue somewhere along the line with these diesel engines because the oil cooler leaks seemed to be a precurser to the ultimate demise of the engine soon after as once the oil cooler leaked and the oil overheated then the warning lights did not function to warn of sludging or engines overheating. this is absolutly a mechanical fault.

Good luck with your new dealer KRD2023

Dog hauler, you were right earlier in this thread about the challenges of legal action. Companies like MBUSA have armies of lawyers to fend off disruptors like me. I just couldn't rationalize other legal pursuits or justify legal actions financially. That said, I've had several attorneys point out to me that I have just cause and a strong case individually against MBUSA/ the MBUSA Dealer, along with a likelihood that a class action may materialize from the systemic oil leak issues related to (at least) the OM642 diesel Bluetec engines. At this juncture, it's most sensible for me to lick my wounds, trade in my immobilized MB, and not buy another MB again. I really appreciate all the input in this thread over the last several months. If nothing else, it will help others with similar experiences as mine. It's also good for MBUSA to see what customers / former customers are saying about our service experiences.

Speaking of legal, here's my legal closeout letter drafted today by my attorney with a planned delivery to MBUSA Corporate next week. This will officially closeout my dealings with MBUSA in this lifetime:


“Dear Mr. B (MBUSA’s Counsel):

This letter is a follow up to my October 14, 2015 letter to which no response was received. Mr. D, having heard nothing from nor received any help whatsoever from MB USA, has decided to put this matter behind him and purchase a (different Make auto). I wanted to inform you that this matter is closed and will no longer be pursued. MB USA has lost a very good customer and will likely suffer the loss of additional customers close to Mr. D.

I am personally astonished that MB USA would prefer to create distrust in and destroy what would have been a life-long relationship. As was previously stated, Mr. D is a very well-respected member of the business community here in Montana, as well as the community at large. Mr. D has many connections not only here in Montana, but around the country. Further, Mr. D is an honest individual and MB USA certainly must understand that his integrity requires he inform individuals seeking his advice on whether they should purchase a Mercedes-Benz of his less than satisfactory experience with MB USA and MB USA’s authorized dealer.

This event will no doubt affect the decisions of future MB customers. For example, when asked why Mr. D was switching from Mercedez-Benz to (other Make auto), the owner of the local (______) dealership was absolutely flabbergasted to learn of the treatment Mr. D received from MB USA and the local MB USA authorized dealership. This individual informed Mr. D that on occasion motors fail, but that if the same circumstances presented with a (other Make auto), it would have been taken care of–whether or not the vehicle was within warranty. For a modern motor to fail at 80,000 is simply unacceptable and truly reflects the quality and character of the entire Mercedez-Benz organization. This is especially true when a MB USA authorized dealership uses oil that is not certified by Mercedes-Benz and, additionally, when the motor fails within 10,000 miles of MB USA’s authorized dealership having performed a major (oil seal leak) repair.

Please place this letter in Mr. D’s file so that, in the event a future MB CEO cares to know what issues the brand is facing, he or she can know the clearly unacceptable treatment MB USA bestows upon some of its customers.

Thank you,

(Mr. D’s Attorney) “

I hope the legal fees didn't add too much insult to injury. This situation reminds me of the scene in the Jim Carey movie Liar Liar where Carey's car gets towed and he has to bend over to retrieve it. If you never saw the movie, you really must. I'm not a Jim Carey rubber face brand of humor fan, but that movie had me rolling on the floor with laughter. And the tow yard scene is one of the best comedy scenes ever. On the other hand, you may not find it so funny after the way MB bent you over.

And I don't see the point to the closing letter you posted. Why on earth tell MB, in effect, "Yes, you win in a complete rout. I'm a powerless peon and you have all the money and lawyers in the world but I'm really pissed and I plan to tell all my friends." To the very small degree they care about this matter, I think that letter added to their satisfaction in steamrolling you, not to mention that it added to your legal bill.

All that said, you could go after the dealer in small claims court. The limit of recovery in small claims may well not cover your entire loss, but even if the limit is as low as $7500 or even $5000 it's probably worth your time. You don't need a lawyer and the rules of evidence don't apply. You pretty much just file the suit with a handwritten complaint, serve the dealer with a summons and two or three court appearances later, you get a decision.

There usually is no discovery in small claims court and hearsay rules don't apply. Based on what I read in this thread, you can present your evidence that the wrong oil was used and you can argue that caused the failure. If you have a mechanic testify for you that's the case, it will help. But, that's not mandatory especially if some of the documents you found on the wrong oil being used also say that can cause engine failure. Essentially you argue that modern engines don't fail at 82k miles for no reason and the only thing unusual here is that the wrong oil was used so it's reasonable to conclude that the incorrect oil caused the failure. You'll also be able to tell the judge how you were poorly treated by MB and the dealer to garner some sympathy. The whole trial will take about an hour because small claims trials get moved along very quickly.

If you win, you'll get a noticeable amount of money out of it. If you lose, it won't have cost you much money or time. And at least you'll have the satisfaction of doing something besides pounding nails in your head.

I agree with the above. JC

Well i can certainly understand your decision, this stuff can eat your life (and wallet) up pretty fast, so whats left to say is "Bonne Chance" my friend (good luck) and PLEASE take a moment to post here a pic of your replacement ride, we all would like to see it and know you are smiling again. Happy :zoom:

Cheers..

Thanks for the above, Dog hauler and GLKpaul. I've put the matter behind me and I won't ever buy another Mercedes. I weighed the pros and cons of pursuing legal action after 6+ months of dealing with the engine failure in my 2010 ML350 Bluetec @ 82K miles. I have too many positive things to focus my energy on (like family, friends, and my business). Given how MBUSA has failed to assist me, and how I've been treated by MBUSA, I now believe this public thread is more beneficial to us all than any legal settlement or court proceedings could be. Good luck to everyone, and hopefully your Mercedes experience is much better than mine was.

I have been following your issue with interest & I am disappointed that you did not chase the dealer. You have not explained why you did not use the small claims tribunal ?.

In your lawyer letters to MB you seem more interested in preserving your home town reputation than theirs. Absolutely no offence meant , just my observation.

In my humble opinion, a little more aggression & stick it up them attitude may have won the day. But thankfully we all have different perspectives..

Enjoy you next purchase ,I hope you have long & trouble free motoring. You deserve it.

John.

I don't think krd owes anyone an explanation as to why he's throwing in the towel, although he gave one: he's tired of it and has better things to do.

Re: more aggression may have changed the outcome: are you kidding? It was obvious from day 1 that MB's position was "FU, a**hole. Just go away and leave us alone because you're not getting anything from us. Not now. Not ever." And it was just as obvious that as time went on, MB did nothing but dig its heels in farther.

That said, I, too, can't figure out why krd was so timid about using the names of the miserable people at MB.

Here's something else that's interesting, at least to me, so I thought I'd post it. Not two days after I cut ties with my first and only Mercedes last week, I get the following LinkedIn message from a friend and colleague from whom I haven't heard in about four years. I suppose this is the first of many who may ask me about my Mercedes experience, and I really wish I could say it was much better than it was. But I can't, and I won't (names are again protected in parentheses out of respect for privacy) :

Dear (krd2023), Strangely enough, I was looking at a Mercedes Bluetec diesel at (dealership name) and when I googled the VIN, your name came up. I was like wait a second, that's too weird . . . Anyway, I was wondering if you got rid of it for any particular reason? I've been chasing one of these down intermittently over the last year or so. Hope all is well! Best, (JS)

I'll respond to JS this week.

This has really been my point with MBUSA all along, ever since my ML350's engine failure in April 2015. Treat a customer respectfully, acknowledge mistakes or shortcomings, and make valid attempts at reaching a resolution when there's a product / service issue. When accomplished, you'll keep more lifelong customers who then will encourage others to be your customers.

Where is your ML for sale? Do you have link?

Laughable offer
 

Today, after my car has been sitting in the MB dealer's lot for two months and the staff there giving me the run around regarding a trade-in for my 2011 E350 Bluetec they finally called me back with an offer for my car. It was truely laughable! The car is in beautiful condition except that it has a seized diesel engine that in my opinion and that of a number of others, including automotive professionals is due to a mechanical fault which originates with a leaking oil cooler; a common fault with that particular engine. This fault causes the warning lights to fail due to overheating and therefore no warning that the engine is later under stress due to the oil gumming up causing the engine to seize. Also, there is evidence that Mercedes was using the wrong oil in these engines for some time before announcing a change to the dealerships a year or two ago. Mercedes accepts no accountablity whatsoever with this issue and will not entertain any sort of negotiation with respect to a new or remanufactured engine. They offered me $2500.00 for my car and $3000.00 off another similar model. Great customer loyalty incentive! My fourth Benz and most likely my last. I'm having the car picked up in the morning and I would rather donate it to a high school automotive program than let the dealership have it for $2500.
Like our friend from Montana, just moving on with more important things in life.

For that price I'll pick it up and your helping out a fellow forum member!

Just to clarify, the non-Mercedes dealership to where I traded in the vehicle is quietly marketing the car while it's in the engine-replacement stage. This dealership has an engine replacement en route, and the dealership owner is a friend of mine. I called him to let him know about our friend's inquiry above to me, and we are on the same page with disclosing to interested parties about the premature engine seizure and current engine replacement project. I don't believe I'll be disclosing more details in this public forum about my Mercedes (VIN, current sales price, dealership location, etc.) for certain privacy reasons.

Privacy reasons? I'm curious on that one. I can see (maybe) not putting the VIN on the forum, but the vehicle is for sale. Isn't getting the word out about where and how much doing the dealer a favor? Keeping an item that is for sale secret is an odd sales technique.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::beatdeadh

Since folks have expressed interest in the oil condition when my engine seized, I’ve attached a photo from yesterday. My non-Mercedes dealer owner friend, who has assumed my "German patient" project, walked me through his shop and we spoke with his head mechanic who’s replacing the engine. The photo shows that the oil completely gelled to the point a screwdriver could be inserted into the sludged oil and stand upright by itself. This is after the drain plug was removed with no oil emptying. The image shows the engine upside down with the oil pan removed. The mechanic stated it resembles oil that was NEVER changed in a vehicle despite my dealer records showing that an oil/filter change service was recorded at almost every 10K-mile recommended interval. We were all scratching our heads over this image and someone else’s grave mistake(s), along with my mistake for counting on my MB dealer to ensure proper servicings as documented were performed.

looks like an oil problem not a engine problem...yikes

Wow now thats sludge never seen anything like it :eek:

i think your dealer told you they changed the oil but never did.

i can sleep better knowing my 09 diesel will not blow up because of a defect, your motor clearly blew up because of oil change problems with your dealer

thanks for sharing all this, i appreciate it

Steve

That is an incredible photo. Almost unbelievable. Snopes would say' FALSE'.

There is still time to do a oil test. Take a sample anyway. Maybe the results could prove something.

This photo should go viral to make the culprits own up.

Holy mother what a mess. As an oil industry man I can assure you that something is horribly wrong here. Wrong oil, never changed, over fueling & producing excessive soot, poor fuel, overheating etc. or a combination of all.

Any messing with aftermarket additives? Keep a sample of that sludge for analysis.

What oil was used by the dealer for your oil changes?

Yeah! I'm almost sure it was not a 229.51 unless something else is terribly wrong.

It looks to me like it is the oil Mercedes put in at the factory. You obviously can't believe the dealer. This sort of thing is why I have never let anyone change oil in my cars, but me. Oil changes are too important. My first car was a '57 Chevy, so I've been doing it awhile.

Hello krd2023,

For everyone's interest from a consumers to an engineering viewpoint, the reason for this sludging should be investigated.

This thread has been a long running , interesting story with a very disappointing & expensive end for you.

What do you intend to do?

John.

That's a common problem that engines with adblue (bluetec) are having. they need oil that meets 229.52 yet many are still using older MB spec oils The emissions system is causing much higher oil stress (higher temps, higher moisture content, fuel dilution, etc) than other models with the same base engine.

Other brands have been sensitive to what oils they require to prevent sludging but for MB owners this is something new.

Thanks, everyone, for your responses and insight in this thread this week. I'm glad my updates are helpful to several of you. I'll obtain and post the results from the forensic oil analysis of our gelled oil (as pictured earlier this week) when available within a week or two. The oil that was supposedly used at each oil change by my MB dealer is documented as Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP, which is NO LONGER an approved MB oil (for the OM642 diesel engine in my 2010 ML350 Bluetec) as was determined prior in this thread. Here's a recent and insightful blog post which well-summarizes the inherent issues with the modern Bluetec engines and oil mishaps: http://www.stephensservice.com/bluet...ssuesproblems/

Meanwhile, while I'm awaiting the oil analysis from our sludge project, I received the following email response from the owner of the local MB dealer from where I purchased my 2010 ML350 Bluetec new and had all regular services / oil changes and repairs performed (again, names are masked to respect privacy- and an important note: this is the same individual who stated that the Mobil 1 5W-40 ESP used as indicated on each of my oil change invoices would not contribute to sludging or engine failure, even though it's no longer an approved MB oil for the OM642 Bluetec engine):


From: R (MB Dealership owner) [mailto:r__@_______.com]
Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015
To: k___________
Subject: Re: 2010 ML350 Bluetec - Resolution


K___,
It is very unfortunate that the engine failed in your ML. The condition of the oil is what I would expect since the engine seized up. I can assure you that if we changed the oil in your ML, it was changed. It is my understanding you exceeded your last oil change interval by approximately 7000 miles which would explain the condition of the oil at this time. Again I am sorry the engine failed, but I see no justification for any consideration from us.
R___ (MB Dealer owner)

From: K_____
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015
To: R _____ (MB Dealer owner)
Cc:
Subject: RE: 2010 ML350 Bluetec - Resolution

Hi R______,
I hope the holiday season is going well for you and your family. We are staying busy this season and things are going well.

I wanted to pass along the attached photo as I thought you’d be interested. S’s mechanics recently disassembled our ML350 Bluetec’s engine during the engine replacement job. The photo was taken yesterday and shows the engine upside down with the oil pan removed. You can see that the oil is completely gelled to the point a screwdriver could be inserted into the sludged oil and stand upright by itself. This is after the drain plug was removed with no oil emptying. The mechanics stated it resembles oil that was NEVER changed in an engine despite my D___ dealer records showing that an oil/filter change service was recorded at almost every 10K-mile recommended interval.

I’d appreciate your consideration of this determination among your dealer staff and Mercedes colleagues, and I’d appreciate a reply with an offer of assistance given our substantial financial loss stemming from this oil mishap.

Thank you,

K___

More Facts Please
 

I'm new to the forum but have been following this thread since I own a 2012 E350 Bluetec. I've followed a lot of oil forums and Porsche tech sites because I own a Porsche with the known IMS issues.

I have some questions on the recent posts here however:
1. I have a 2012 that BEVO lists as a 229.51 oil spec. MB has not made 229.52 mandatory on that spec or earlier so I assume those oils are still perfectly acceptable to them. If not, they would have made 229.52 mandatory. I choose to run a 5w40 ESP approved oil due to the hot summers here.
2. I read the link provided and don't know if I agree with the conclusion. All clean diesels in the US run PDF filters and have an oil bypass system. If that was the problem, engine failures would be common with other manufactures in the US. I don't see that with Ford, GM, Dodge, etc.
3. I do an oil analysis on my oil. No duel dilution has ever been noted on the report. All tests have been normal. I believe the added fuel is injected directly into the catalytic converter to heat up the converter to reduce the HC levels. It does not go back into the engine to cause overfueling or dilution.
4. The dealer in question here suggests the oil was 7000 miles overdue. Is that correct or was it changed by someone else? If not, that could mean 17000 or more miles on the oil.

If someone has engineering knowledge of these engines please correct me.

Let me clarify/correct point #2 in my above post. Some diesels used to inject fuel into the exhaust cycle of a diesel engine. Perhaps some still do. MB obviously uses DEF fluid injected into the exhaust stream to control pollutants. I don't know how MB forces a regen cycle. Some manufacturers use time, some use mileage, some use differential PDF pressures, etc. Because of fuel dilution I doubt MB injects fuel into the cylinders.

By the way, Mobil 1 has an engine warranty that you should check into. Look at the Mobile 1 official site. If their correct oil truly was the cause of the failure they would want to investigate, analyze, and perhaps even warranty your engine. It's worth checking out. Save another oil sample for them to analyze.

I cant make this clear enough. Mobil 1 5w40 ESP HAS NEVER been an approved oil for bluetec engines. It's a perfectly good high quality oil and is an approved oil for non bluetec 642's but its the emission package and not the engine that necessitates that a 229.52 oil is used in bluetec 642 engines. Without using the correct spec oil you're relying on short oil change intervals, favorable operating conditions and luck to prevent oil sludging like pictured.

Between fuel dilution, higher than normal temps and increased soot content, using an oil that doesn't have the increased resistance to oxidisation you're taking the risk of an oil related failure at some point.

While I advise using 229.52 oils. 229.51 products will not cause this issue. Yes some of the urea injection engines run severe. I'm told this engine has been dropped from the US market. Might be due to fuel quality there as it's not up to European standards & at US pricing no one wants to upgrade refineries.

Formula M
 

Yes, I should have written the whole thing more clearly. Mobil 1 ESP Formula M 5w40 was an approved oil for the OM642 oil under spec 229.51 and still is listed in Bevo. Mobil has since dropped that oil for whatever reason.

We may never know the official reason but we can't assume that it was because the oil failed in the OM642 engine.

In fact, Mobil 1 does not make an MB approved 5w40 for diesels anymore under spec 229.52 but they make Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 that is approved.

Perhaps Mobil corporation would test your oil sample to determine if the oil was even correct.

This conversation begs the question , what is the difference in formulation between 229.51 & 229.52 & why was the change necessary ?

We'll probably never know why the change. My guess is that MB wanted to improve fleet mileage targets. There are few 229.52 oils as of right now and they are all Xw30 oils.

My biggest questions remain. What oil was used in the OP's vehicle by the dealer and more importantly, how many miles were on the oil when last changed. The servicing dealer is suggesting it was 7000 miles overdue. Hard to get any concessions if that's true.

To answer your question re overdue please see KRD's #28 post.

JC

A New CEO at MBUSA
 

News outlets today (12/21/15 in USA) announced that Stephen Cannon, CEO of MBUSA since 2012, is leaving MBUSA to become chief executive officer of AMB Group, LLC also in Atlanta, GA. From my own disappointing experience with MBUSA this year, and from what I've gathered from many others with shared poor MB experiences, I'm not surprised that yet another MBUSA executive is leaving the company. As you see prior in this thread, I wrote Mr. Cannon earlier this year requesting assistance and detailing facts surrounding my case, which had fallen on deaf ears previously at MBUSA. The company responded with a demand that I cease communications with MBUSA via a "cease-and-desist" order. Weeks ago, I walked away from MB as a customer forever. Hopefully the company turns itself around relative to its customer care and customer retention perspectives (yes, I see that MBUSA earned high rankings in American Customer Satisfaction Index, but I don't understand how). I'm sure there are many good reasons for Mr. Cannon's successful professional career, but based on my experience with MBUSA, I see irony in Mr. Cannon's preaching of "culture reigns supreme" in his assertions here:


"You have to basically rearchitect your organization because the exceptional customer experience requires equally exceptional people, culture, and leadership. I am a strong believer in Peter Drucker’s statement that “culture eats strategy for breakfast.” You have to behave like the experience you want to deliver.
At our roots, we began as an engineering company. Today we are a marketing company that delivers customers their dreams. Don’t get me wrong, we still build the best cars in the world! But the expectation goes well beyond the sheet metal. Today the customer is at the center of everything. We have a laser focus on the customer’s perspective as it relates to our products, marketing, technology, and processes. Our goal is nothing less than to delight every customer, every time, everywhere . . No exceptions!" --June 2014, Mr. Stephen Cannon, CEO of MBUSA, with full article referenced here -- http://blogs.forrester.com/harley_ma...cedes_benz_usa

An excellent example of absolutely empty & misleading corporate rhetoric spoken by a bull **** artist.

I hope 2016 is off to a great start for you all. For your reading this year, I'd like to recommend the newly-released Driven to Delight as found here: http://driventodelight.com/index

Joseph A. Michelli does an insightful job of revealing the culture changes and organizational process flows within MBUSA, which for MBUSA "sets a new gold standard in customer service, employee engagement, and peak performance." Let's see if MBUSA maintains the principles espoused in the book. Hopefully my 2015 experience with MBUSA was an exception.

With the timing of the book's release, I was compelled to start my second MBWorld.org thread to follow related Driven to Delight feedback, as found here: https://mbworld.org/forums/collectib...rated-yet.html
I look forward to seeing your input and feedback there.

Here's to good reading, good living, and safe driving in 2016! :zoom:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...77daae0c6c.jpg
Here is a photo of the sludge being removed from my 2011 E350 Bluetech. We have sent this oil for analysis to Finning Labs and awaiting the results.

Like KRD, we had a friend of ours who has a non Mercedes Dealership haul our car back to his shop. He has been in the business for 40 years and Never Seen Anything Like This!
How Mercedes can deny there is an issue with this engine and or oil is beyond comprehension. The fact that Mercedes won't even discuss this issue with the owners of these vehicles is just wrong.

On New Years Eve, I turned in my '12 ML350 BTC and 2 days later picked up a new gas engine GLE350. The BTC was my favorite engine in a vehicle thus far and we initially wanted another MB 6 cylinder diesel. However, these well known oil issues are frightening. We had an oil leak and adblue heater prev repaired under warranty. I've always changed the oil on my own w/ 229.51 spec oil so I know what was being put into it and also that all of it was coming out. A few days before turning it in, I have a feeling the issues are arising again. So though not being in the exact vehicle I originally wanted, I'm glad to be out of the former one. I feel for those on here who trusted in the dealer performing to proper services with the proper materials.

Status of oil analysis
 

Thanks mbdiesel12, coiner, and others who have posted or privately guided me regarding oil analysis. Several of us with congealed oil from engines are realizing that only a few sources (outside of standard oil testers) can accommodate the condition of our oil. In my case, the regional oil tester couldn't read my oil because it's not in liquid form anymore. Therefore, I'm working with Mobil headquarters now to arrange for them to analyze my oil sample and we're now a couple of more weeks away from results. I'll post results in this thread when I obtain them. It will be helpful if others with similar oil experiences post your analyses in this thread too, and include your frequency of oil changes and type of oil (mine was MOBIL 1 ESP 5W-40 throughout the life of my 2010 ML350 Bluetec at regular MB dealer services and at 10K-mile change intervals ending with a lapse by the dealer, with the engine seizing at 82K miles).

Being sceptical ,I would have preferred to have an independent tester rather than Mobil testing their failed oil.

What other testers are capable ?

Interested to see the results.

KRD2023- I suggested using Mobil Corp to test your oil because they might offer you an engine warranty based on their oil guarantee. Doesn't hurt to try. I would also use another independent lab such as Blackstone, ALS Tribology. or another, as a check and balance. I'm sure we'd all like to know if this was an oil failure, the wrong oil, a design failure, or a mechanical failure.


If you're going to challenge MB, having multiple independent analyses will be important.


I'm very interested in knowing the results since my decision to keep my 2012 E350 BT after the extended warranty period may hinge on the outcome.

As a thought, too late for OM642's which are out of commission and no longer in owner hands or still together.

I wonder if a small inspection camera/scope could be dropped via the dipstick tube and a visual inspection of the lower engine block or pan be successful? Not sure how long the cable length is on some of the less expensive model to reach all the way down to the bottom of the motor and if the end can be rotated to see what needs to be seen. Can always go through the drain plug for a bottom up view during an old change. Probably a better method with a better view.

Checked my OM651 and the opening of the dipstick tube is at least 9mm with play room and a HF digital inspection camera is label for a size of 8.5MM, might be a tight fit? Better inspection camera's might be smaller and with longer cable length.

I wonder if a dealer would be willing to check one's motor out, just to be on the safe side. I got a 50K due next week and will be asking my SA on this. Odds are a MB service department has a inspection camera on site.

I just stumbled upon this thread as I've been considering an MB diesel as well.

Sludging like what is seen on these two engines is typically from excessive heat, insufficient oil quality, low oil levels, and/or an insufficient oil capacity. . It is no wonder there are engine failures.

How Merc can allow this issue to continue for so long is unconscionable. It almost seems negligent. An idea that might help would be to contact the law firm that handled the V6 balance shaft class action suit referred to earlier in this thread. If anyone would, they should be very interested in this diesel issue.

As an aside, most firms are not geared up to handle the complexities of class actions, much less deal with a single plaintiff going after a multi-national corporation.

I recall reading the OP spoke to several attorneys about the situation. That said, it is possible he may have been quoted high retainer fees that would allow a smaller firm to involve themselves with a case they were not structured to handle. Or, a high retainer was proposed as a nice way of saying "we don't want this case, but if your crazy enough to pay what we're asking we'll take it."

Nothing against the majority of those in the legal profession. But having been in the field, I've also lived it.

One thing for sure, letter writing and sabre rattling rarely does anything when your dealing with larger corporations. They only begin to pay attention to your claim when they get served.

Having personally dealt with a multi national company to resolve a product's design flaw, I can tell you they only took notice of me and dealt with my claim because I filed an action against them with the circuit courts. At that point they had no other choice but to get their counsel involved. Before that it was crickets.

I had to set a foundation for my claim by hiring an expert witness, paid for testing, and the like. The circumstance was fairly cut and dry, so I only did enough groundwork to get the claim started. Because of the dollar amounts involved (low to mid five figures), I gambled they would offer a settlement before discovery and ultimately they did. It cost them less to make me go away and pay my costs than it would have to deal with the public exposure, pay the costs of defending, and ultimately deal with a trial.

This circumstance with the diesel engine failures, out of the ordinary engine repairs, and the excessive oil sludging may be a bit different depending on how strong a case you can make for yourselves. Nevertheless, I do believe the firm that did the prior class action suit against Merc would be very interested in this. If not them, there are a handful of firm's that handle this automotive class action and based on merits just need to name a plaintiff or two to bring the claim for the class. Costs are not crazy.

Stonewalling is just a companies way of saying if we don't have to cure this, we won't. The way they see it, with any luck the problem customers will eventually go away. In the mean time they improve the design. It is unfortunately typical for big business to think like this. And ultimately, legal actions are a budget line cost of doing business.


My personal feeling is that it is just plain wrong for a company to refuse to workout a customer's legitimate claim about a sub-standard design, especially when that same company bangs the customer relations drum at the same time. Hopefully, what I contributed helps out.

I think before we encourage anyone to enter into a protracted class action lawsuit we need to gather a lot more facts. Generally, the only people who make out in a class action suit are the attorneys.

My '12 BT engine has a capacity of 8L. Hard to prove insufficient capacity. Low oil level? Maybe if dealer was at fault or oil level not checked on a regular basis. Excessive heat? Again, maybe if a mechanical fault of some type occurred.

My bottom line is let's wait for the oil analysis. My guess would be wrong oil used or mechanical failure (such as oil pump, etc). Could be a lot of mechanical reasons. What did the tear down of the engine reveal?

I'll admit to not reading the dozens and dozens of posts on this but I've only seen the pics of the two sludged engines. Hardly the basis for a class action unless a lot more cases are discovered. As someone recently posted, there are a lot of these OM642 engines in use. Privately and commercially.

Can't wait to see the oil analysis. Hopefully more than one.

I think the OP's best chance is to prove the dealers failure to service properly.

Gents. I have taken an in-depth look at the changes in Benz oil specification & formulation from 229.51 to 229.52. The only changes are viscometrics for improved fuel economy & a tighter control on Chlorine to encourage recycling. Any comment that the use of 229.51 approved product instead of 229.52 could contribute to this problem is false. Both products will do the job fine & play no part in sludging. It is possible that a more highly detergent product could cure the problem but Benz would have to raise ash limits which would place emissions control gear at higher risk. The most likely causes are over-fueling & soot production or poor fuel. These engines were designed to run on the latest Euro fuels, OR dealers using lower spec products but not reducing oil drain interval concomitantly.

I agree with you 100%. As I stated earlier in this post, if 229.51 spec oil was causing problems MB would have mandated 229.52 oil. Let's not overlook the fact that oil changes are often based on meeting government fleet mileage requirements. It's not necessarily an improvement in other areas of oil performance.


One other point on oil heat related issues. Many turbo diesel owners are not aware of the importance of letting their engines idle for a minute or two after a high speed run (such as pulling off the highway after a long trip; especially on a hot day). MB doesn't even mention this but truckers know very well the importance of this.


Turbos can spin up to 100K RPM. If you shut them down before a short cool off cycle, you heat soak the oil with very high temps. Over time this can lead to "coked" turbo bearings, high oil stresses, premature turbo failure, and who knows, maybe sludge formation.


If you do any of your own work check the underside of the oil filler cap, the oil filter itself, and the interior of the filter housing for signs of sludge. I also routinely send my oil for analysis to watch for fuel dilution. Mine runs a normal 2%. I also change my oil (via extraction) at 5-6K miles just to be conservative. I watch to make sure I extract very close to the 8L, minus any consumption, that was put in prior.


Just food for thought...

But they did.....from the moment the Bluetec spec 642 engines were released.......

I don't know how any of you expect to win against MB when most here seem to continue using 229.51 oils. If MB say to use 229.52 and you use 229.51 and experience an oil related engine failure then MB say you didn't use an approved service product and that the end of it. Has anyone had a sludging failure using the correct oil?

I'm not seeing any evidence of that. If you call up the BEVO oil spec for 229.51 you'll see many different acceptable oils. Is there a site to go to to prove that MB has mandated the use of 229.52 oils? My local MB dealer knows I use Motul X-Clean 5w40 229.51 oil and has never told me that 229.52 is mandatory.

As Glyn M Ruck has researched, there is very little difference in the two oil specs. Spec 229.52 mandates a 1% improvement in mileage I believe.

If you have some research or links about the mandated 229.52 oil spec please let me know and I'll change.

I think I know where the confusion is coming from. I have seen a document titled "Oil Sludging in OM 642 Engines" dated 8/29/2014 that does say to use only 229.52 oil.


However, it lists only certain model designations that are affected. I'm wondering if we're debating Euro spec models vs US spec models.


Based on my VIN, my model number is 212.024. According to the document that model is not affected by the requirement to use 229.52. So I think 229.51 still applies. I may call MB Customer Service to verify.

2009 143k miles bluetec engine developed a knock.

I attempted to swap the engine myself as there were metal shavings in the pan indicating failed bearings.

I pull the oil pan from the motor to check the bearings and heres what I saw.

The black coating on the oil pan was flaking away like paint.

The oil pump pickup was completely covered in this material, therefore explains my failure, oil starvation leading to failed bearings. If i continued to drive it would have lead to a seized engine. Im trying to attach photos of evidence to show you all.

Please see Post #140

Sorry to hear of your plight.

Interested to know your oil change interval & brand & grade of oil used ?.

I've yet to hear of a 642 seizing using 229.52 oil.

As I'm in Australia this may sound like an odd question, outside of California are different grades of diesel available for passenger vehicles? (high, low or ultra low sulfur?).

Based on what I just researched it appears that ULSD diesel was required by the EPA in all states around Sept/Oct of 2006. The requirement is <15ppm but states are allowed to have tighter controls not looser.

ULSD has been mandated since the bluetec was released. We have different grades of cetane, but all commercial diesel sold since 07 has to be ULSD

OK, I don't want to beat a dead horse but I called MB Customer Assistance on this (800 367-6372). I'm sure this won't end the debate but they said for my 2012 E350 BT that 229.51 5w40 was the recommended oil. They researched a while and came back to say that 229.52 is OPTIONAL in my engine and is backward compatible. (Of course we knew that).

Oil spec 229.52 is NOT mandatory for my engine.

All I can say is call the above number for your specific vehicle/year to find out. My guess is the latest BT's use 229.52 since it's the newest spec.

Whether you want to put your faith in the MB Customer Service rep is up to you.

I'm a tribologist working for one of the worlds largest supermajor oilco's. This issue has absolutely nothing to do with the very minor differences in 229.51 & 229.52 chemistry & viscometrics. In fact many 229.51 products will pass 229.52 with Zero formulation change. From a viscometrics perspective the new formulation will allow blending of an SAE 0W-20 for fuel economy.

Your shut down advice has my full support on all turbo engines not fitted with a turbo heat back surge pump or device.

The issue is likely a soot agglomeration problem for reasons I have covered in my post above. If I owned a vehicle with this engine I would halve the oil drain interval until a definitive answer to the issue is provided. I'm watching a friend's ML in Rockwall, Dallas TX that only does 6000 miles per annum & oil is thus being changed annually. There is zero oil thickening taking place. :y

Nowhere in the owners manual supplied with US sold ML's as an example do they recommend 229.52. This is a red herring! This engine has been deleted from the latest ML replacement but Tuscaloosa has never even initial filled with 229.52. I should point out that US diesel is not up to the latest Euro specs.

I'd just like to chime in and say that I think 10K intervals, even with high quality 229.51 synthetic, are simply too long. I think any car manufacturer recommending these intervals has ulterior motives of wanting the decrease the longevity of the engine or save on included maintenance (like BMW). Before you crucify me for not acknowledging mercedes' brilliance in setting those intervals, I'll point you to the MB 5-Speed auto with its "lifetime fill" transmission that guaranteed its failure around 100K unless you ignored their advice and replaced the fluid at typical intervals.

For my car (OM642 W211), I never really exceed 5-6K between changes.

I also believe you need to actually drive these cars and avoid a lot of low-speed idling type behavior which is more common in the mommy-soccer-grocery-getting roles that the SUVs typically fulfill in the US.

Edit: I suppose that I'm further benefited by having most of my daily shutdowns involving a slow speed parking garage, which means I'm basically idling for 60-90 seconds before final shutdown.

Thanks Glyn. Let's heed the advice of an expert in the field of oil lubrication technology. Modern diesels stress oil and engines in ways old diesels didn't because of our EGR systems. Soot is one of a modern diesels biggest enemies.


Long oil change intervals exacerbate soot buildup. My take away from all this is use the correct oil, change it more frequently, and adjust your driving habits where you can (such as at shutdown).


Here's an interesting article on why soot causes us problems.


http://www.machinerylubrication.com/...oot-oil-engine

With proper filtration as fitted to all Benz engines 10K miles on modern HDEO's is a walk in the park. New PC11 oils will go even further. In many markets Benz diesel engines have a 30,000Km drain interval with no ill effects. The oil industry is capable of supplying oils that will give even greater protection but only at higher ash limits (due to greater additive treat) Low SAPS oils are mandated to protect Cats & particulate regen units. So you are sacrificing a little engine life to protect emissions gear fitted. A balancing act.

Excessive stop/go & idling is not an ideal environment for these engines.

The 722.6 "filled for life" transmission nonsense was an MBUSA misjudgement. There is no such thing as filled for life & Stuttgart never endorsed this. ROW was always 60,000KM or 39K miles fluid & filter change as mandated by Germany. The 722.6 transmission will do 1 million Km's properly serviced. Proven in taxi service in Europe & Asia.

Spending a little more on lessening oil /filter change intervals has served me well in a lifetime of motoring. I keep my cars for 15+ years.

The last piston I saw from a car of mine was from a Leyland P76 V8 ( Buick design) in 1975 & that was a piston skirt failure from poor design.

Serviced well & driven respectfully an automobile engine will not fail over a long period of time.

Given that the 722.6 wasn't even fitted with a drain plug, I'd say that it was endorsed by Stuttgart. Remember, this was all the rage in the late 90s, with the fake idea behind it that by not opening it up, you wouldn't introduce contaminants. ZF Did it as well, with similar results

Also, that's not to say it isn't a robust transmission. Everyone knows that with regular service intervals and fluid changes that they're likely a longer lasting transmission than the 722.9 that replaced it.

Yet another gl350 engine seize!!!! I also have a 2010 gl 350 with just over 80,000 Kim's and it stalled yesterday morning while going to work two blocks from my house, hadn't even warmed up yet let alone over heated. No lights no warnings no smoke or sounds of any kind. I had it towed to my mechanic who has said it is seized. He disconnected all belts to ensure no drag or anything else could be stopping it from hand turning the motor over by socket and bar on the crank. He could not budge it at all!! He said same thing as all other posts about oil being sludgy as well. I had just bought the car, think 5 months ago, from a "super car" dealership ( I will protect their name for now as still awaiting a response from them) so don't know service records but I was booked to take in for the service b today!
I am in Canada and unsure what to do. I have been in touch with the non MB car dealer I bought it from and still waiting.
The mechanic I use is not at MB dealership, but very competent and specializes in MB, and VW's.
Did the OP have any luck with MBusa?
Is there a chance that the engine is not seized but something else? Seized timing chain or ? I am not a mechanic but have some limited experience in rebuilding small block Chevys decades ago in high school. Before some crazy responses get posted I know these motors are entirely different!
Anyways any help is greatly appreciated or if nothing else maybe MB will realize they have a problem and do the right thing!
Kind regards,
Tom

Hello Tom,

Best to investigate further the true cause of the seizure.

Can you do some sleuthing & find the service records. They will be important in any claim.

How many Km have you done since buying it?

Hello Tom, sorry to hear that, recommend you read the thread through for an understanding of the entire issue. OP did not get anything from anyone, and he let it go.. Again read the thread with give you clarity on this and alot of helpful info.., best of luck post your progress please...

Paul...

Tom,
I'm sorry about your conundrum and I share your MB pain. Welcome to the (unfortunately) growing numbers of us dealing with sludge (among other mishaps i.e. premature oil leaks) with MB bluetec engines. Hopefully the informative posts from others in this thread will help you since I started this thread from the April 2015 engine seizure in my 2010 ML350 bluetec at 82K miles. As folks encouraged me prior, it may benefit you and others to obtain a forensic oil analysis. I'm still awaiting mine and will post my results when available. To hopefully save you some research, it seems that Signum Laboratory* is the best option for a proper analysis. Signum is somehow tied directly to ExxonMobil as indicated in the attached photo showing shipping label information from my kit. You may obtain full instructions on how to proceed with an oil analysis by contacting ExxonMobil Lubricants by phone @ 1 (866) 328-8036. Good luck with determining the cause of your bluetec failure! *This is assuming your car used Mobil oil (my MB dealer claimed to use the following oil at each 10K-mile recommended oil change interval: Mercedes Part # Q1090143 , which represents MOBIL 1 ESP FORMULA MB 5W-40)

On Post 155, (Page 7) I thought it might be prudent to ask my MB dealer during a50k service if they had a camera/bore scope to take a look at the bottom end ofmy OM651 (I4), not the V6 OM642, being discussed. While I did not get a photo,but SA did stated the bottom end was very clean.

Now I wonder if more PPL who have the means available to use camera/bore scope while during an oil change to take a looksee at their bottom end via the drain plug,or a valve cover where oil is added to the motor?

While at this time I do not have a bore scope, I am sure thinking about getting one, if nothing else, to keep a look out for sludge in both the valve cover and oil pan when I do start to do my own oil changes, if not before that happens. I do happen to have a MB ELW to125K, just to cover possible issues like this.

Now other thoughts I have had. I wonder if these motors which got sludged, what is their normal run history. Were they ran as a diesel should be, over the road miles, with at least 30-60 minutes of full warm up, or short in town miles, never really getting totally warmed up and oil up to temps to possibly prevent sludge buildup. Just wondering since I got one of these so call oil burners myself. Now on my motor, I do tend to run 60 miles each way on a commute, 120miles daily, so I personally feel my circumstance, my OM651 motor is somewhat running as a diesel is really designed to run.

In my opinion it is too late if the oil has begun to sludge but the borescope idea should give piece of mind .

I agree that long runs are best for any engines lube system but the trick is to know that the oil will require changing more often under more challenging circumstances.

If I had one of the engines in question I would change the oil every 6,000 - 10,000 miles or 6 monthly & be very confident no sludging would occur. Oil is cheap .

I've been doing regular oil analysis on my CDI and the reports come back with better than average numbers. Doing a test at about 10,000kms (6,000miles) is a good indication of how much longer you should wait until your next change. In the end it's a little overkill, but it will give you a lot of good information on how well your engine is running.

Over kill or not I change my oil at 5k on all my cars. I am more worried on the timing chain issue than the sludging on my GL350. I don't understand the little more spent on an oil change can save a big headache, but people still tend to risk it. 10k is way too much on a oil change. I was living in NJ and 10k in NJ is way different than the 10k in Florida where I live now, but people don't differentiate between city and highway miles. This engine does have its issues (oil cooler seals and timing chains), but I believe manufactures have to change into 5k synthetic oil changes.

I'll be doing my next oil change at 18,000kms (11,180miles). I think with synthetic oil and large oil pans, changing at 5,000 miles is a little unnecessary, but there's certainly no harm done, and if it gives you a little peace of mind, why not?

B Marques, have you ever sent your used oil off for analysis?

This is a basic materials science issue. It is a shame on MB no to recognize this oil leak. When they use rubber gaskets in the hear of the engine, it will fail sooner or later and the records show that. Nothing short of a metal gasket should have been used there. It is a tue shame for MB who has over 80 years of experience with Diesel. Their old diesel engines never leaked and ran for over 700000 miles with no issue. We should work for a court order to pull all the record of diesel engines with the cheap gaskets. No one should have ever paid a penny for this fault. I am totally for a law suit against MB. let us join forces and get this taken care of.
https://mbworld.org/forums/images/st...ser_online.gif https://mbworld.org/forums/images/cu...ons/report.gif https://mbworld.org/forums/images/cu...ttons/edit.gif

Bluetec
 

I asked the question on the GL website a couple days ago "Bluetec or Gas". After three responses I decided to do a search and came up with this incredible thread! i certainly will not buy a diesel and I am hesitant to even buy a MB. I am sorry to hear about the issues you have experienced.

I have a diesel MB and I've had no problems with it. It's a CDI, so it should technically be more problematic than the Bluetec because of the higher rate of EGR. In fact, in general you will find them quite reliable, much more than Audis or BMWs. This thread is the exception to the rule - and quite frankly, such occurrences are very rare. There was clearly some sort of issue with the engines that failed, but we'll probably never know exactly. The OP seems to have had the misfortune of having a bad or uncooperative dealer.

It's unfortunate that MB wouldn't help out, but the warranty is what it is. If the OP can demonstrate that the dealer damaged his vehicle, then he's got a case.

My sister had an Audi A4 and the engine blew up at about 100,000kms (62,000miles). It was out of warranty and Audi wouldn't do anything about it. Because of that one occurrence, should all people stop buying gasoline model Audis?

Every car company has problems. Period. Buy what you like and drive it.

Marc: I have a A8L TDI and a GMC 2500 HD duramax in the fleet currently. I have had virtually no issues with either one in 200k miles. Where I live,Biodiesel is the norm. Levels are from 5-20% and MB will not cover a warranty over 5%. I spoke to three MB service techs last week and two of them said that they would go gas if they were buying new. That is what prompted me to start the thread on the GL site.

I think the biodiesel clause has been lifted. But I'm certain on that. North American diesel is notorious for poor quality and inconsistency. I've always used additives, even when allowable sulphur levels were higher.

Anyway, my experience with MB diesels has been positive.

Oil testing results are slow !!

My oil analysis results
 

Attached (3 pages from Signum) are the results of the oil analysis from my seized OM642 Bluetec engine, which some of you have been awaiting. I hope the data is useful, and interpretations from some of you tech experts may be helpful to several following this thread. I'm merely a former MB customer who counted on my MB dealer and MBUSA to conduct and advise me on all proper services / repairs throughout the life of my 2010 ML350 BLUETEC before it failed me @ 82K miles in 2015.

Note in the attached report, the oil sample quantity was very limited and my MB dealer missed at least one opportunity to change the oil while servicing before the engine seized.

KRD, Hope this results in some resolution. I hope Glyn can report.

Is there more to the attached report? It has nowhere near the detail of my oil analyses by ALS Tribology or Blackstone Lab. What about metals, contaminants, additives, etc.? Viscosity@100 looks very low to me. Mine runs around 11-12. VOA for that oil is 13.4. TBN on it is 5.5.


I'm not an expert but soot level is close to what is expected or acceptable. Also looks like coolant is not a problem.


The report says the oil has 12K miles on it. That's over the recommendation. If the dealer missed an oil change you might have an argument.

Sample size was too small to do elemental analysis etc. so the results are as much use as tits on a bull. Was this sample very thick or semi solid? I'm worried it was polymerised in which case a go/no go lab won't be able to assess. i.e. there will be a liquid phase & a heavy agglomerated solids phase. Oxidation is through the roof while soot shows low. I'm inclined not to believe this. High rate of oxidation is likely reason for low TBN as the product becomes more acidic with rising oxidation. I can do nothing worthwhile with these results. Also remember that the sample has to be representative of what the engine is seeing. Sampling technique is critical in this regard. Sorry! Where are the results of product sent to ExxonMobil?

I find it hard to believe that a modern premium oil (group III+ or 4) will polymerize/gel with proper flow under 10,000 mile OCI's. There needs to be a major failure or very short interval at very cold temp.

I would look at oil flow blockage, pump failure, and that the oil changes were not preformed or partially preformed. I know one FL resident who won in court that the rental car's oil was not changed and engine seized. Other suspects exhaust pipe against the oil pan or oil line. Coolant would have high water and propylene glycol in the oil (easy to analyze).

Draining by the pan detects sludge better than draining by the dipstick.
I even do 5-9k oil change intervals on my toyota gas minivan with Group 2 oil (187,000 miles) and no problem. Mostly city driving. I don't do much 2-D paper chromatography analysis on the oil anymore. Just by eyes (color and particulates on the oil on dipstick).

Drop the oil pan and start taking pictures and samples. If the oil polymerized there should be gelled oil stuck to the screen, shaft, cover, filter, etc. Even it you went an extra few thousand miles between oil change, there usually a safety factor built into the oil change intervals. Did the engine ever overheat or blow a coolant line? I think the metal can be 400 F or more. Oil is used to lubricate and cool the metal part. Hot oil is cooled by the oil cooler and the regular cooling system.
I never thought Mobil ESP oils were that durable compared to premium HD DELO's. Metals needed to be reduced for the DPF and cat. To do the proper low SA test (metals), phosphate also had to be reduced. Low metals and low phosphate made a less durable oil and oil starvation failure.

We have visible proof that something very wrong is occurring here:


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...d94e73fc75.jpg

The trouble is that as one goes up the Group scale of base oil quality so additive miscibility becomes steadily more of an issue in the base fluid. To make matters worse 229.51/52 have an ash clamping limit of less than 0.8 while the gas version of the product is greater than 0,8 typically 1.2 to 1.6 allowing a considerably higher additive treat than the diesel oil. This was done by Benz to ensure that no one product could meet both gas & diesel specs as was previously possible & to protect the emissions & regen units on diesels. i.e. effectively sacrificing a little engine life for the sake of the emissions gear. Also the Diesel version of the oil does not have to meet the severe HTHS (high temperature high shear) requirements of the gas version due to low rev limit & far less aggressive cams, allowing for the use of less expensive base oil. There is definitely a high temperature element to these failures or we would not see oxidation where it is but this might only occur in the terminal stages. I also believe that there is a soot agglomeration issue likely in what we see. With a relaxation of spec I'm sure we as an oil industry could cure the symptom. Benz needs to establish the root cause. These engines were designed to run on Euro 6 diesel & poor fuel quality could well be a contributing factor combined with less than ideal operating conditions to create the "perfect storm". There is no doubt in my mind that a 229.5 product would improve the situation but it would violate Benz recommendations.

Glyn,
That's nasty. Regular oil drain plug oil changes look warranted than sucking up through the dipstick. It looks as if the oil pan should be removed and inners inspected every 2 to 3 oil changes. Could the ERG be stuck? Soot progressively clogging the filter and lines, low oil flow, then overheating of the oil and gelling?

Is engine seizing problem only when group III oils are used or also with group IV oils? The

"There is definitely a high temperature element to these failures or we would not see oxidation where it is but this might only occur in the terminal stages." Even if the engine didn't seize, that much sludge is part of the walking dead. Glyn, in line with the engine being at the terminal state, polymerization rates increase exponentially.

ESP 229.51 oil in the USA sells for much more than 229.5 oils.

Yes I know that. Regarding pricing that is the way of marketing. 229.5 uses superior base oil, has twice the additive treat rate & in 0W-40 configuration is more expensive to formulate than a 5W-30 or 5W-40 from a viscometrics perspective. Removing the sump is not practical in situ on these units. Have not experienced a unit with the EGR valve stuck. The sample size is too small to see any pattern that would suggest a base oil commonality. What I have not seen yet is a failure using Euro 6 diesel. If anyone knows of one I'm interested. As I commented earlier in the thread I'm watching an oil industry friend's ML in Rockwall, Dallas TX that is at present being serviced annually due to approx 6000 miles/year & it shows zero sludging. He has a decent Olympus borescope. I recommend halving the oil drain interval until Benz resolves the issue. Oxidation catalises further oxidation.

Once heat induced polymerization occurs less oil, less cooling and high temperatures and then more polymerization in that area and then other areas. A vicious cycle.

Toyota V6 Sienna had some sludge problems that we solved by increasing water cooling (larger radiator, increase fan cycles and lower engine temp). Then enlarging the engine's oil return ducts to increase oil flow and to prevent sludge from clogging those ducts.

Glyn, BTW does the 7G transmission have an ATF level sensor? It think the last ATF change level (20000 miles ago) was too low for my new cold winter

Glyn- Can you expand on the HTHS comment? I use Motul oilsin one of my Porsches and my MB. For my late model Porsche (gas) I use Motul5w40 X-cess. It has an HTHS of 3.7, ash of 1.1, and TBN of 10.1. It also meets229.5 spec and Porsche A40.

For my '12 MB Bluetec I use Motul X-clean. It has an HTHS of 3.64, ash of.8, and TBN of 7.5. It meets MB spec 229.51.

I have read that Motul is a Grp 4 base. I assume for both oils. Since thedifference in HTHS between the two oils is just a rounding error away from eachother, should I be concerned about both being too low per your HTHS comment ordid I get lucky and find a good oil for each.

The significant difference between the oils seems to be in TBN. Could it bethat the skimpy additive pack, reflected in the TBN of the 229.51 oils iscausing the problems?

2010 ml bluetec

had the leaky seals issue fixed. had the intake and egr cleaned.

the mobil1 esp 5w30 was causing sludge. ran a liqui moly engine flush before the last oil change and switched to Top Tec 4605 5W-30 @ mb 229.52. no sludge issues. using the stock mann filter from benz.

http://www.liqui-moly.com/liquimoly/...cument&land=GB

Indeed ~ That is Polymerisation/Oxidation 101. The real question is why are so many of these engines trouble free at huge mileage with no apparent connection to more failures in what Benz calls torrid zones of the world e.g Dubai, Saudi, Africa? I more & more think the issue is fuel or fueling related possibly linked to certain lubricants where formulators have gone cheap to just meet specs & no more.

The 722.9 has 2 level sensors for fluid control. Fluid level going too low will ultimately induce limp mode. These have nothing to do with setting correct fluid level which is temperature critical & height of spill tube dependent. See diagrams. Signs of a slightly low level can usually be induced by reversing up a steep hill with apparent slippage or loss of drive occurring.


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...62c7c04962.jpg




https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...a9bcb4e195.jpg


https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...1554980e26.jpg


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...50b6df66ff.jpg


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...bbf2be2bcd.jpg

There is an excellent write up on DIY servicing of these units by John Anderson in the W203/W209 Wikis that he & I built. There are some minor differences in the 722.9 Plus transmission fitted from approx August 2010 production including the new energy saving light fluid which is blue in colour 236.15 & not reverse compatible with older transmissions like the 236.14 material was.

Motul is a responsible company & is obviously using the same base oil for both products as we do even though we are a supermajor oilco. All I am saying is that the lower HTHS spec for diesels would allow formulators to use cheaper base stock. That does not mean that they will unless they are penny pinching or that horribly misleading term "optimising" a formulation. The difference between meeting specs & exceeding them. We go as far as using a number of ashless components in our 229.51/52 products to ensure that they are robust in service. I doubt that the issue is TBN related as even in terribly degraded samples there remains some Alkalinity Reserve.

EDIT: Another issue we have not considered here is NOACK values of the base fluid. (ie. evapourative thickening ~ loss of light ends of the fluid at high temperature). The reason I have not considered this is that all the base fluids used in these products should display good performance in NOACK Volatility & there is evidence of such high rates of oxidation.

I'm starting to hear Mobil 1 ESP too often in this saga. It might not mean anything but it raises suspicions. I would be very interested in their response to this issue. Hopefully they will reply soon. There are other failures that have not been on M1 ESP in other countries.

Do you think that MB is starting to have the same suspicions? Could that be the reason why the dealers, at least in my area in CA, are using the MB branded 229.52 oils?


It could be pure profit motive on the part of MB but I doubt it. We also don't know who makes the MB 229.52 product. Could still be M1 but I'm skeptical about that. I wonder if M1 is still factory fill now.

I just put M1 0w30 ESP in my R320 CDI, and will do some oil analysis after a few thousand kms. My previous interval used the MB 229.52 and I did 3 oil analyses on that, at 4,000kms, 10,000kms, and 18,000kms.

I'll report back my results.

Interesting: the ESP 5w30 does not meet the 229.52 spec and isn't distributed through MB. It does meet the 229.51 spec though.
The ESP 0w40 meets the 229.51 but not the 229.52; but IS distributed through MB
The ESP 0w30 is the only one that meets the 229.52 and is also distributed through MB

Also interesting: my local MB dealer sells the Mobil 1 0w40 for gassers but not the Mobil 1 ESP 0w30 for diesels.

And one last thing:

According to this MB doc, the only spec suitable for my vehicle 251.125 is the 229.52
same for 164.125, 164.824, and 164.825 or basically all diesel w164 and x164 sold in North America whether Bluetec or CDI

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/d/d/en/Spec_223_2.pdf

Cold weather without extensive driving (hot engine) gives more fuel contamination, water and soot into the oil. Maybe it's the opposing theme on car batteries. Hot weather kills them and the dead battery is found in the winter. Oil is killed in the winter and body (sludge filled seized engine) is formed in the summer.

I couldn't find the W203/W209 Wiki, but did find lots of DIY on the 7G.

My 7G tranny is slipping (R and D) for the first quarter mile when the temp is < 30F or < -1C during the first start of the day. Any advise?

the dealers here in canada no longer use it because the "contact ended"; they switched to penzoil 229.52. most likely because the esp forumla had major issues. i have also started to change the oil every 10k km, not 15k km as was suggested in the manual.

fluid is low. get the whole system changed - pan,etc as go to somewhere where they know what they are doing.

Folks,
let us collect the data on the Bluetec. I have search ~40 cars on cars.com and found 20 cars with leaks and torn seats (from CarFax report on the site). Please add your car or any you know to the list. There is no such record of engine failure for any other car in the industry. M-B should recall the bluetecs and offer full repair and warranty.
As a Material Scientist, I was stunned by the choice of material in that gasket. I never suspected anyone in Germany (one of the top countries in materials engineering) would do such a mistake rather than by Mercedes-Benz who has over 80 years of experience with diesel engines and have actually produced the best diesel engines in the world. Worse, the gasket is located deep in the engine that it would take a skilled technician between 25 to 35 hours to repair it, according to experts!M-B should have not used anything but metal gasket in that location.
Here is the list, please add yours and submit your case to the Attorney General
1
Year
Model
VIN
Mileage when leaked
Date reported

2
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB0BA296857
44,926
08/30/2013

3
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB0BA296857
65,926
01/16/2015

4
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB0BA395372
76,768
09/09/2015

5
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB1BA364020
58,635
11/28/2014

6
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB3BA358574
44,290
08/01/2013

7
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB4BA387193
38,602
06/03/2015

8
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB9BA311775
28,082
08/29/2013

9
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB9BA311775
49,800
01/29/2016

10
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB9BA496684
42,724
11/20/2014

11
2011
E350
WDDHF2EBXBA438888
36,988
04/11/2013

12
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB1CA592259
41,635
11/17/2014

13
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB3CA556069
41,505
04/16/2014

14
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB6CA524796
31,873
07/18/2014

15
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB7CA607833
40,457
12/10/2014
Lemon reported/reacquired
16
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB8CA521303
44,797
05/23/2014

17
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB8CA521303
52,176
04/16/2015

18
2012
E350
WDDHF2EB9CA595216
48,712
03/03/2015

19
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB7BA493038
34,385
12/03/2014

20
2011
E350
WDDHF2EB7BA470116
29,652
03/14/2014























https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...bf25ac4243.jpg

Thanks for this data. Will you please direct us to the "list" to which you're referring and how to best submit our info? Is it in fact best to file with the Attorney General of New Jersey? If a valid case against MB is materializing for those of us affected by Bluetec / oil shortcomings, I'm willing to assist and participate. Also, I received the following notification today and will be checking on its merit this week and will report my findings in this thread:

"Thank you for contacting my office regarding your potential Mercedes Benz BlueTEC recall claim. Based on the information you have provided us, it appears as though you should have a claim for your diesel engine vehicle and the recent emissions scandals.
In order to start the claim process, all you need to do is submit some basic information. You can complete the paperwork online, without the need to print, by following this link: click here to fill out your paperwork.
Please fill out the questionnaire as completely as possible, sign the Contract of Employment, and click to submit the paperwork. If there is a question you do not know the answer to, just fill it in to the best of your ability and we will take it from there.
If you have any questions, please call my office at 1-800-223-3784. We look forward to hearing from you soon.
Adam Pulaski
Partner
The Pulaski Law Firm, P.L.L.C.
4615 Southwest Freeway, Suite 850 | Houston, TX 77027
(713) 664-4555 | (713) 664-7543 (fax) | (800) 223-3784 (toll free)"

Hello Krd2023,
Thank you. Let me summarize my thoughts:
1. From the number of engine leakage from the same location (oil cooler gaskets) at such a low mileage, it is obvious that there is a design and material fault originating from the manufacturer. The data in the table I have collected demonstrate this fact. When you add your car’s VIN and the mileage/date of leakage, we can strengthen our case. I collected the data from Carfax reports available online for cars that are for sale on cars.com. So, if you put your VIN number on the site or send it to my email (mhasan3@yahoo.com), I will add it to the table and publish it again for anyone to use it. Please ask others who had the same experience to publish their VIN.
2. Everyone of us can write a letter to the Attorney general of the state where the headquarter of MB is located. They are responsible to enforce the state’s consumer protection laws. If we all submit claims and support our claim with data like the one in the table, it will becomes obvious to the Attorney General that this is not normal wear and tear issue. It is a fundamental fault caused by the design of the engine and the choice of materials made for the gasket. They will force MB to compensate consumers for the fault or correct it.
3. The letter you got from the lawyer Pulaski is about emission standard. It is not about the oil leak. It may not apply to our cars. Most of the time, the lawyers make most of the money and the consumer like us get next to nothing. That case will not help us much.
4. I believe that you can also send the same letter to the Attorney General in your state. They are there to protect consumers in your state.
5. We need help to draft a good letter to the attorney General. I am not good in writing such letters. Any help? Any lawyer here with a faulty bluetec?
6. If you bought the car new from a dealer in your state, you can submit a complain to the small claim court (up to $10k) against the dealer using the same data to show it is an inherent fault and not wear and tear issue.
7. To file a complaint with NJ Attorney General go to: http://www.njconsumeraffairs.gov/Pag...Complaint.aspx
Scroll down to see how to file online or download a complaint form. There is a Lemon complaint too. Attached with this post is the general complaint form

Thanks, mhasan4. I'll look into your seven points above. Yes, the Pulaski pursuit seems separate and is focused on emissions. In fact, I received a followup phone call from a Pulaski representative today who encouraged me to return my signed Contract of Employment as soon as possible. The contract shows a 33 1/3% fee (based on gross recovery before deduction of any expenses) to the attorneys if a judgment is in favor, or no fee otherwise. I asked if this will be a class-action suit and was told these will be individual cases for now. The representative stated that I'll likely be reimbursed for the costs I incurred for emissions-related repairs/labor and related diminished value on my 2010 ML350 Bluetec. I was told the case is in early stages, and that Pulaski is also involved in the Volkswagen emissions claims. I was also informed that I can still be reimbursed even if I no longer have possession of the car. I'll wait and see how this develops before I sign a Pulaski contract and engage.

Did MZ ever respond???

The Wiki is under Tools in the top toolbar of the forum pages. Your fuel contamination point is taken but more prevalent with gasoline engines ~ diesels heat up more quickly & run hotter. How do you know your transmission is slipping cold. Remember the car goes into high idle when cold & holds ratios for longer to warm the Cats. First thing to do is check fluid level at the correct temperature

I don't understand this comment "Oil is killed in the winter and body (sludge filled seized engine) is formed in the summer." Explain what you mean?? Sounds like an old wives tail unless I misconstrue what you are trying to say. Suffice to say that Gasoline engines generally form low temperature sludge while diesels produce high temperature sludge ~ period! Once operating temperature is reached, ambient conditions make little difference.

The Pennzoil material is the same as Shell. Shell today makes quite a lot of MB's OE lubricants along with Fuchs.

Lots of short winter commutes allow fuel and water to accumulate in the oil on both diesel and gas engines. The start of the oil degradation is in the winter. The oil is now bad. The oil with all the contaminates gels in the summer with full engine temperature or hotter.

The engine rpm goes up then the accelerator is pressed but the car will hardly more when the ambient is below 30 and car is not warmed up.

Nah! exactly the same thing happens in summer. Water is a by-product of combustion. On short trips from a cold start water can build up in the crankcase oil to 7 or 8% either winter or summer. All that will evapourate it off is running at operating temperature for extended periods. There is a direct relationship between water produced by combustion & the amount of fuel burned.

5 miles in the winter the engine has not reached warm, while the oil will be warm in the summer time driving off the water.

No it wont. You are wrong. When we were developing energy conserving oils I ran a fleet of 10 vehicles on the dyno at 6am, 2pm & 10pm daily for a year through both summer & winter over 10 & 20 Km's from a cold start. In that service the water level from combustion in the oil just continues to rise. We have some of the most sophisticated research labs in the world & I assure you that you are wrong.

Are you saying that the water is not evaporated off at all with a 10 Km drive in the summer time? How hot does the enginee need to be to evaporate off the water? It seems counter intuitive that the a warmer engine would have the same amount of combustion water as a cold engine.

We need to let our resident engineer and scientist Gln chime in here but I suspect the answer has to do with temp differentials. For instance, a gas engine might generate an internal combustion temp of 1500F. Perhaps more in some parts of the engine. So when you look at the external ambient temp difference on a cold vs warm day (IE- 0F vs 80F), it is a pretty insignificant difference relative to the internal combustion temps which determines the water content. Diesel engines run even hotter internally.


Just my guess however.

Here is my seat of the pants view!! . Glyn's tests are only over 10 & 20 Km. from cold start-up in a time frame of say 10 to 20 minutes in town & half that on the highway.

In these circumstances either summer or winter I can imagine the water level of the sump oil will keep increasing because the oil only may just achieve its operating temp say 80'C for a short time, if at all. During this "cold running period " more condensate is added to the oil.

If however the vehicle is run over an say 8 to 12 hour period non stop ( summer or winter)with the oil temp at say 80' C the water in the oil must evaporate out .

Any light faction fuel contamination will also evaporate out .

This can be experienced first hand when an engine has been doing a lot of short trips then after a long trip the sump oil level has fallen noticeably .

We may be commenting about two different phenomena. My comment is directed at why outside summer and winter temps might not affect the amount of water present in the combustion process at start up. Dave2001auto was wondering why outside temp differences don't have a significant effect on water content summer vs winter.


Your comment I think pertains to the length of time it takes for that moister to burn off after startup. I'm sure Glyn can shed some light on that.

There will obviously be a longer warm up period in winter because of the ambient temperature of the engine block ,head, oil & coolant. But how much difference this makes is up to those who have done the testing .Once the system is at running temp (including oil) there should be little difference in pollutants summer /winter.I think the answer is in the engine thermostat maintaining the optimum temperatures. The longer the oil is at operating temps the more pollutants are evaporated off. ie long runs.

An engine requires to run for 100's of miles/many hours at full operating temperature to drive off water from combustion, aggravated by closed circuit breather systems. Also remember in this process that the engines are continuing to produce water from combustion. Modern Benz engines with the 4 way ECU controlled thermostat warm up so quickly that ambient conditions are of little consequence in the equation. Diesels particularly heat up quickly due to high auto ignition temperature of fuel, higher temperatures of combustion & greater energy value of the fuel. Engine operating temperature takes over from ambient so quickly that ambient conditions have a negligible effect. Gasoline is driven off quickly due to low latent heat of vaporization. Diesel takes forever to drive off & chronic diesel contamination of crankcase oil will usually lead to bearing failure due to reduction in oil viscosity to a point that hyrodynamic lubrication cannot be maintained. Water takes longer to drive/evapourate off than many realise. Gasoline engine oils are formulated to combat low temperature sludge while diesel engine oils are formulated to combat high temperature sludge. Benz' 4 way ECU controlled thermostat has done much to speed the warm up of gasoline engines. Fitted from M272/273 engines onward.

Thanks Glyn.

I would also appreciate an explanation on the workings of the Benz 4 way ECU controlled thermostat .

I would surmise that it had a jacket water recirc feature before opening to the radiator?

Here we go JC,
It also improves engine efficiency!

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...d1bfdf3702.png


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...1b8dfc886e.jpg

Thanks Glyn, that is so simple & neat. Why did I not think of it !!.

What happens when the engine is at operating temp & the supply voltage fails ( which is holding the thermostat in radiator mode) ?. Is there a safety feature?

Sure. It fails open like all Benz thermostats.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...e464a7fb1c.png

Thanks Glyn. I noticed the engine temp gauge reaching 80C very quickly, < 1 mile) while my 84 took many at least 5+ miles to reach 80 C.

Since moving, my wife drives less than 10 miles on the bluetec per trip. Maybe more frequent oil changes are need now.

Does Pentosin high performance II 5w40, a HC oil, show the sludgling problems? Is it a good oil? What about the oci for this oil?
Any relation to oil draining by vacuuming v. Drain plug methods? It seems like the bottle drain would remove larger particles and some sludge.

I've just sent off my first sample of Mobil 1 ESP 5W30 (meets MB 229.52) for analysis. We'll see how it compares to the MB branded 229.52. After 4,200kms, visually, it still looked good; still very transparent and nice viscosity.

I suspect, that as long as the oil meets the required spec, then it's not an oil issue.

At my next fill. I'm going to use Amsoil Euro Car Formula 5W40 I-ESP.

There are differing opinions as to where is best to drain the oil from. On many vehicles, through the dipstick tube actually reaches to a lower point in the oil pan.

On the OM642 engine, you can see that the drain plug is side-mounted, but it is at a very low spot on the pan. The worst case is that about a half once of oil might left in there. The dipstick tube goes to the same spot, so I doubt there's a benefit either way.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...f681a58be6.png

My though of particulates is removing particulates and sludge would be harder by sucking particulates up 1 meter than to drop it down or side ways. The sludge would remain in the pan with the evacuation method, while some of the sludge would come out of the larger drain hole.

My friend's 2009 e350 (gas) the dipstick tube does not go all the way down. He removed most of the oil by vacuum on the dipstick tube but had to get the remaining oil out using a thin tube down the dipstick tube.

ESP oil prices have sky rocketed. Most "full synthetic" oils in the USA are hydro cracked (HC) base stocks. But with a great additive package, it can protect better than a group IV or V with poor additive package. There's a FCP sale on oil change kit ($92): $82 for 10L Pentosin HP II 5W40 with $10 for Mahle filter and filter wrench and includes shipping.

for what its worth i always use the drain plug, my thinking is as the oil rapidly flows out it carries any particles with it, or at least most particles anyway
i have a lift though so bottom oil changes are a breeze
i am using amsoil euro 5/30 229.51spec this time around but used mid saps amsoil 5w40 last time.
the amsoil euro 5w30 is low saps
i do not go 10,000 miles, i go 6-7,000 miles or once a year on my vehicles
09 bluetec

Steve

Im a drain plug user myself too, btw, changed oil in OM648 at 175k miles the other night after putting 14 k miles on previous oil change, total oil consumption in 14k miles was less than .5 liter. I have a vacuum oil pump and have done both ways, easier yes, but I prefer putting car up on my lift and inspecting lots of other stuff while all the realistic oil possible drains out which takes a bit. My OM642 Sprinter gets same treatment. These sludge/seizures are not caused by the oil type IMHO, they are caused by very excessive internal heating of the oil from the pictures.

.
His is 2009 e350 4 matic that I expected the dip tube to reach the bottom.

If evacuation method assumes all is removed without verification, the sludgest oil is left behind to contaminate the new oil.

I would expect the oil at 4K to look diesel dirty if the oil is suspending the soot.

With the high price of the oil and diesel fuel, is a diesel still more ecomical to drive than a gasser? And sludge, go module, dpf service, etc.

I noticed that on some Benz's there's a catch point about two inches from the bottom of the dip stick tube. Seem where the tube meets the casting, maybe? I just have to give it a little jiggle, and it goes the rest of the way.

The 3 approved Pentosin products are:

Pento High Performance II 5W-40 x Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH, Wedel/Deutschland
Pento Super Performance III 5W-30 x Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH, Wedel/Deutschland
Pentosynth HC 5W-40 x Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH, Wedel/Deutschland

Pentosin is a highly credible organisation & their products are fine. OCI as recomended by Benz.

Theory tells one that you might remove more particulates by drain plug but that is offset by most of them ending up in the oil filter & magnetic particles trapped by the sump/pan magnet. Oxidation catalyses further oxidation so getting as much old oil out as possible is important. You don't want crap in your ice cream!

In reality with Benz I have noticed zero difference in representative sampling of used oil that one method is any better than the other. Benz dealerships all suck out used oil with no adverse experience!

I think the sludge problems are most likely due to too long of drain intervals or incorrect oil spec.

You can't use non-Euro spec oils in any MB even if it does have the correct weight. They have different additives and properties. I've tried non Euro Car formula Mobil 1 before in M112 engines, and you get foaming shortly thereafter.

Yes ~ Only use Benz approved service products. You have a large enough choice!

Again, list of approved oils:

http://bevo.mercedes-benz.com/bevolisten/229.52_en.html

I noticed that the MB oil filters are much smaller. They were huge in the 80's, large in the early 2000's and in my 2009 tiny. Could lack for filtration, i.e., clogged filter be leading to sludge and gelling of the oil? No oil, excess heat and polymerization?

Filter technology, media and debris carrying capability without pump through has improved vastly over the years. This is not a filter issue & there is zero evidence of filters going into bypass.

The extremely long interval is at fault. Its pushed to the very limit in order to reduce the annual maintenance costs they can quote on the window sticker and ad material.

15,000k miles is an absurd interval no matter the oil quality. 8-10k is maximum for engine longevity even with synthetic. 5-8k in vehicles with an active-regen DPF.
Everyone's driving style is different. Use an oil analysis service to determine what your maximum safe interval is.

On another related issue, what do you think of 70,000 mile interval on the latest MB ATM ?. It was 39,000 miles.

Transmissions are different; they have no source of contamination as an engine does (oxygen, soot, fuel, water, etc).

As long as the ATF is not overheated, the vent is not directly exposed to water, the cooler doesn't leak in coolant, and the filter works to catch wear particles, synthetic could last that long.
ATF life is exponentially shortened by excessive temperature.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...3aead9afd3.png


I know a local 300TD that my friend services for the owner, he changed it over to M1 ATF 12 years ago and it still looks fresh today.

I have 30k miles on my M1 ATF and it still looks, smells like new. I was going to change it but the OA test came back very good so I will retest at 45k miles.

Note ATF
Date 2015/10/04
Chrome (CR) 0
Copper (CU) 21
Iron (FE) 21
Lead (PB) 1
Tin (SN) 2
Aluminum (AL) 11
Silicon (SI) 9
Antimony (SB) 0
Barium (BA) 1
Potassium (K) 0
Boron (B) 231
Cadmium (CD) 0
Calcium (CA) 197
Magnesium (MG) 1
Moly (MO) 0
Nickel (NI) 0
Manganese (MN) 4
Phosphorus (P ) 527
Silver (AG) 0
Sodium (NA) 8
Titanium (TI) 0
Vanadium (V) 0
Zinc (ZN) 33
Viscosity 100*c 7.9
Water Neg
Fuel Neg
Coolant Neg

Thanks for that.

My MB 5 speed transmission oil is noticeably discoloured after each 50,000 km service but it is old technology & I am using the transmission oil of the day, not the new stuff. I will continue the 50,000km. services

JC ~ The 722.6 MUST be changed every 60K Kms for longevity & it will do a million Kms. Unfortunately the Torque converter drain plug was deleted in 1999 to save cost & reintroduced on 722.9 & dying days of the 722.6. If you purchase a new converter now for a 722.6 it will have a drain plug. WIS change & flush procedure is in the W203 & W209 Wiki's. I think I have previously given them to you but I put them in the Wiki a long while back.

The newer Blue non backward compatible Benz fluid ~ 236.15 & up is somewhat unproven at 120,000Km drain ~ It bench tests well. Shell & Benz spent a fortune developing that fluid but we are only just starting to see samples of fluid at that mileage. Some good & some not so good dependent on service & towing. If I had a 722.9 Plus transmission I would continue the 60,000 Km changes until we have a lot more data at double that!

It is easy to tell if a Benz transmission is getting too hot. The vehicle will change down and hold higher engine revs to increase fluid flow through the cooler until temperatures have normalised. Transmission pump runs at input shaft speed = crankshaft speed!

Transmission fluid contamination is generally internally generated wear debris plus possible coolant contamination if the radiator cooler springs a leak!

Sorry if this has been covered before but I have a question re: quantity of ATF in the 722.9. I just had the dealer service my 722.9 transmission for the required 4 year service. The work ticket listed 6 qts of ATF were used.


That doesn't sound like a lot of ATF to me. What is the ATF capacity of the 722.9? Do you think they didn't drain the torque converter but only the pan?

I agree regarding sample analysis but reality is that most won't do that so 10K miles is sensible drain apart from these troublesome engines where I would halve it until solved. 15K miles is more than feasible with Euro 6 fuels but with the rubbish the rest of us get I would not do it!

They did not drain the converter. Many of them do not read the WIS.


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...e9e6aabdf9.jpg

Hello Glyn,

I have never flushed but did drop it twice at the 100,000 km service & it looked OK (clear & pink). I will continue to drop it every 12 months when I do the engine oil .The internals of the filter were perfectly clean so will do that every 4 years. There was a fair bit on the magnet ( 1/16 ") & a light deposit on the bottom of the pan.

I thought this plan would see me out!

Thanks,

JC

Thanks, that's what I thought. I assume your reference to WIS #S127.00.P.0002B is what the factory recommends they do when servicing the 722.9 transmission. Correct?


I don't know if I should challenge the dealer that they did not follow factory recommendations or not. I could have chosen an independent MB shop for a lot less but decided to go with the MB dealer thinking they were required to follow factory procedures to the letter. Having said that, I've been around long enough to know better.....


Does anyone know if I have a valid complaint with them or MB here? The vehicle is still under warranty.

That's fine JC!

Correct ~ If you search the W204 or W209 forums you will find we have got a number of US dealers to change their bad practice! I would make them do another change. The TC holds 4 litres!

Here is some detail:

https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...ce-thread.html

https://mbworld.org/forums/clk-class...ight=Glyn+Ruck

https://mbworld.org/forums/clk-class...ght=California

There are many other threads but these give the gist!

Glyn- Before I confront the dealer I's like to be sure of my facts. My car is a 2012 E350 BT. I know it has the 722.9 transmission. Is it a certainty that the transmission has a drain plug to allow a TC fluid change for that model year and model (W212)? Also, since I don't have access to the manual, does WIS S127.00.P.0002B pertain to my model and specifically call for a TC drain/refill at transmission service time?


This is the same dealer that overfilled my oil by 1 1/2 L when replacing my rear main seal. They seem to be careless on procedure. Just want to be on the right side of this argument.

Update to my prior post. I asked the dealer to check on whether or not my 722.9 transmission (E350 BT, 2012) has a TC drain plug. Guess what.... the answer was no.


I guess I should have expected that answer. It's possible they're correct depending on my specific VIN and transmission series. Without crawling under the car looking for the transmission stamping and inspecting for myself, I'm now in a position of paying an independent shop to inspect it for me.


Don't know if all this trouble is worth it. In three years the car will be gone when the warranty runs out. However, my patients may run out before that. I read some previous posts where the same scenario played out with the service dept. saying "no TC plug" but the parts department confirming "yes" by VIN code.


I guess that's why everybody likes dealers so much....

I think it's time to find another dealer or a good independent.

The WIS is endlessly updated with every connection to the internet so as I don't have a live Star at my disposal I can't answer your question regarding latest instruction. Your car should certainly have a TC drain plug.

US Dealers BS about this endlessly whereas here in SA where Benz owns my dealership they do a proper change including TC, no questions asked and under Mobilodrive Plan. You can't buy a Benz here without a motorplan.

Since early 2007 I have not seen a single 722.9 or 722.9 Plus without a TC drain. We only know of one car on the W204 forum without one & I seriously wonder how hard they looked. Many dealers have said no drain but when checked there was one.

The only answer is to pull the plastic plug out of the bell housing & crank over the motor to check.

Here are a couple of different bell housings on different models showing TC drain plug.

Leaving 4 litres of degraded fluid in the system to pollute the new fluid is very bad practice unless you are doing very short changes like Carsy does/intends.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...754e286fe1.jpg




https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...c2b2e73414.jpg


https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...438926a52b.jpg


https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...42acd1750a.jpg

Brilliant...I've a late production 722.6, next tranny oil change will be dropping way more than the four liters or so last time, thanks!

Victory is sweet.... I went to an independent shop, had them verify that I indeed have a TC drain plug, they documented their findings, and I took a picture with my camera.


I then went back to the dealer with the "evidence". Like they say "A picture is worth 1000 words". The silence was deafening.... I discovered a new shade of red also.

Excellent sleuthing.

I'm delighted for you. Dealers lie to customers without batting an eyelid! They should be embarrassed :o: :smash::beat:

Great work!

I have to be careful about declaring victory I guess. How will I ever know if they really change the TC and Trans fluid the second time around? They could take the car in the back, keep it for an hour, and tell me all is well!


Now I'm beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist, aren't I?

Be there & leave when they have taken the plug out .I have done so on warranty issues.

Most of the MBZ shops won't allow customers into the garage floor. The shops also don't have viewing windows. How do you have them produce the evidence?

Shell ATF 134 was plentiful in California $60 case of 12 Qt. I have been having a tough time finding ATF 134 in Newark, NJ area. Lots of transmission shops trying to pass an full synthetic ATF as an approved replacement. All the ATF's were all for older higher viscosity ATF and not 134, 4134 nor mercedes .14 approved.

Any place in NJ Newark area that sells Shell ATF 134 at a reasonable price?

BTW: In So. Cal most of the dealer would not change the TC under normal transmission $350 ATF service. They wanted extra $ to do the TC.

In NJ one dealer wanted $190 plus tax and an extra fee to reset the service indicator on an motor oil change. Another dealer $550 for an ATF fluid change with TC drain here.

Hello Dave,

I thought we were the customers . Under the circumstances of the complete lack of trust between dealer & customer ,I would have thought they would make an exception to the rule & escort you in to see the drain plug out.

If all else fails there is the camera & this days newspaper in the background or a stat dec.

PS. Illegitimi non carborundum

Doesn't matter. OSHA safety regulations and insurance policy rules will prohibit customers in shop-areas.

That is the standard sign that can be just bs. I visited a nuclear reactor to see the blue glowing water. Much more restricted or secure area than taking a look at your own car.

I signed an indemnity with my MB owned dealership years ago & 4 cars back. I witness all servicing of my car. I know more about it than any MB trained tech with his silver star studded certificate on the dealership wall and ensure things are conducted to the WIS or my preference.

My local dealer in Georgetown Texas allows me in the back when my my Sprinter is on the lift, they are actually very gracious about shop visits. This may be because they know I also own a Motorsports business or it may be normal policy. All their diesel work is done in the back separate service area mainly used for Sprinters. Hell, last time I was stuck there for five hours of warranty work they let me test drive a used Audi A8L and a used SL65 too. I also got to nail a diagnosis on a customers OM648 e320 CDI giving their techs a fit, they seemed genuinely shocked that I was right but, after 110,000 miles in last 6-7 years with OM648 I'm getting to understand them pretty well.

Yup, I've helped techs with transmission diagnosis, Auto Bix level learning, How to align Benz models that pull with the camber of the road. Borescoping M272/273 chain sprockets & the list goes on & on. We have a nice friendly relationship.

Not to derail too badly, but I'm looking for a new bore scope, any suggestions? I work on everything from small cc motors to turbines, got an interesting option, digital and record able? I'm using a dental scope right now...which works but, there have to be far superior not insanely priced options?

My personal favourites are from Olympus. They cover everything.

http://www.olympus-ims.com/en/rvi-products/

I'm still using this old banger for my private purposes.


https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...9f3b8d6a80.jpg

I have a rather pricey Olympus metallurgy microscope...will look into this!

Got my 2009 e320 blue tec back from a local indy.

Said that oil filter needed is not ox380D (too narrow of center hole) but needed a ox345/7D and asked if anybody changed oil filter housing. My EPC has oil filter as 642 18 0009 that is the ox380D. Has anybody else come across a such a change from the EPC and what actually fits?

He did the transmission service and noted the oil tranny filter was disconnected (was in the pan), AFT quite clean (only 30,000 miles from 58k to 85k miles), and very little metal on the magnets (no copper seen). Hopefully no damage to the tranny from filter disconnected and low ATF (noticed at

My trans filter was also in the pan when I serviced my own 09 gl 320 bluetec...not much difference after service so I guess the filter was in enough
Steve

Dave find a new Indy they don't know what they are talking about the 7d filter is for one of the gas engines M112 or maybe M272. They obviously don't realize that you have a diesel and I would worry they would put the wrong oil in. Also I would recommend the Mann filter

I supplied the 229.51 oil and filter (ox380d) and all the other parts. I am concerned about the oil and ATF. That's why I supply them. The indy said the ox380D inner hole was too small to fit and used the other filter. The ox380D appears to be paper without any metal.

Is there a Mercedes part number on the filter housing? From there I can check for the proper filter.

From Internet

in mm ox345 HU821x ox380d
height 115 95 95
OD 64 72 72
id 1 31.4 31 24.4
id 2 31.4 31 24.4

May be picked up the wrong used box. The HU821x differs from the ox380d on the ID.

Dave

Update: The ox380d's 24.4 mm i.d. felt opening is to stretch to the 31mm on the motor oil filter. I will replace the oil filter myself to test this theory at mid-OCI.

Steve, if the ATF filter is disconnected, will air be suck up the tube or is the ATF level well above the filter's connector? Maybe that's why my tranny was having problems

I'm pleased to see how this thread has grown since I started it in early 2015. Since that time, I traded in my 2010 ML350 Bluetec after the engine seized at 80K miles after routine MB dealer services. Also since that time, because of the way I was mistreated by MBUSA, I've pledged to never again own a Mercedes. Recently, several sources reveal mounting lawsuits against Mercedes / MBUSA. I'd like to bring this thread back to focus, please, to assist anyone seeking legal recourse against Mercedes from occurrences similar to mine. Please feel free to add any advice and direction here for those of us interested in participating in valid legal remedies from MBUSA mishaps.

Dave
I noticed no difference after the service so I assume the filter was in enough
I wouldn't expect much if any difference
Steve

Would you mind to summarize technical aspect of your misfortune?
I read it all first time yesterday and got lost in side topics at the end.
From what I got - it was unclear if the engine seized due to design flaw, or due to the dealer neglecting proper oil change.
I drive cars long enough to know that motor oil will not gel without extreme reasons. Just bought Bluetec with 160k miles and the few records I have, it was filled with older 229.51 category oils.
This way, or the other, thanks for taking your time to let us know. :bow:

Hi kajtek1,
Thanks for your note and question. My MB debacle was, I suppose, a perfect storm of factors including defective MB materials (engine components with flawed designs), bad and/or incorrect oil used by the MB dealer, missed opportunity(ies) for oil changes by the dealer, and inability to reach any resolution via MBUSA. I submitted prior in this thread almost all supporting claims, documents, and images. MBUSA never accepted any accountability but instead fired off a "cease-and-desist" to me demanding I not contact them again, to which I obliged. I'm sorry the thread has become so voluminous with my prior submissions and those of others, but I know it's been helpful to many and I'm pleased for that. I've moved on from any dealings with MBUSA on the matter, and have pledged never to drive a Mercedes again. The only way I would ever reconsider this stance is if MBUSA apologizes to me publicly and gives me a new Mercedes to win me back as a life-long customer. I'm not holding my breath, however.
Meanwhile, please keep following this thread in the hopes that we see input from others seeking resolutions from similar experiences as mine. I just recently received notice of yet another lawsuit against MB as found here (even though this suit appears to be in limbo):
http://www.courthousenews.com/CNSNEWS/Story/Index/90117

Also, I'm still curious of others' feedback to the 2015 public relations effort of MBUSA, in a "book review" thread I started here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/collectib...rated-yet.html

Finally, I see yet another engine issue similar to mine has been posted this week in another thread found here:
https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...c-motor-2.html

I hope this additional information helps.
Thanks again, and good luck with your auto experience!

What I could not understand is that UBUSA refused to talk about the case on base you exceeding the oil interval by 7,000 miles.
You are saying the dealer did the oil change during a repair, but forgot to reset the counter.
That would mean that for 7000 miles at each engine start you had warning about service due.
Am I correct?

I agree with you on the peculiar silencing treatment from MBUSA I experienced. As for the last oil change mishaps of my doomed engine, that debacle was part of the rapid unraveling of my dealings with MBUSA and my local MB dealer starting in 2014. Here is key data from the last dealer service invoices I'm looking at (outside of my prior regular dealer services occurring at least at 10K-mile recommended intervals), which may answer your question:

Service date: 4/22/2014
Mileage: 67,418 (beyond 50K mile MB warranty, naturally)
Complaint: CUSTOMER STATES OIL LEAK ADVISE
Correction: OIL LEAKING AT REAR OF ENGINE FROM DRAIN PIPES IN VALLEY. ENGINE OIL COOLER SEALS LEAKING. RESEAL OIL COOLER. REPLACE ASSOCIATED SEALS. PERFORM LOF. SEE ESTIMATE. RESEALED ENGINE OIL COOLER. REPLACED ALL SEALS. CHANGED ENGINE OIL/ COOLANT. LEAK CORRECTED. CLEANED OIL FROM ENGINE.
Several hundred dollars in repairs.

Service date: 11/10/2014
Mileage: 76,094
Complaint: C-CS CHECK ENGINE LIGHT IS ON
Correction: PERFORM QUICK TEST. FAULTS FOR ADBLUE TANK HEATING ELEMENT. CHECK RESISTANCE, HIGH RESISTANCE. 12.2 OHMS. SPEC 1-2 OHMS. REPLACED ADBLUE TANK HEATING ELEMENT. CLEARED CODES. NOTE: SERVICE 7000 MILES PAST DUE
($1,579.80 bill for this repair, which I was getting used to. It's erroneous of the dealer here also to note that my service was 7000 miles past due, as the prior 4/22/2014 service clearly covered the oil change. In fact, if the dealer had done their job correctly, they would have changed my oil again at the 11/10/2014 service. Instead, my Check Engine light illuminated again sometime after that 11/10/2014 service, and the dealer technician simply met me at my car in the service lane and triggered the light to turn off without reading the codes- yet another missed opportunity for an oil change (and that technician soon stopped working at the dealership after my ML's engine seized). The engine soon after seized in April 2015 at 82,000 miles. It's also important to note, as we pointed out to the dealer and MBUSA, that the dealer shows they used Mobile 1 5W-40 ESP at every oil change, which ceased being an approved oil for that 2010 ML350 Bluetec. Thank you.

Thanks for additional explanation.
I made my mind well over 20 years ago that even I make much more than grease monkeys do, I perform my oil changes because you are not the first one who had a problem with "professional" service.
Even I have record that oil on my newly acquired Bluetec was changed 3000 miles ago, I just send its sample to Blackstone Lab.
Better be safe than sorry.

Some of you may appreciate this recent update... my non-Mercedes dealer friend who accepted my "immobilized 2010 ML350 Bluetec with a seized engine @ 82K miles" on trade when I replaced my car just reported this to me: the engine replacement ALSO seized after just a few hundred miles after professional install. The engine was also an OM642 and had approximately 80K miles. This was his prognosis on that engine:

"OM642; Cause of failure: oil pump failure, thrown rod, broken block. It had not been remanufactured. Prior to shipping the engine to us, they pulled the oil pan to inspect and then did a compression and leak-down test."

I wonder why the oil pressure warning light didn't come on in either of these two instances. Their purpose is to prevent catastrophic failure as described above.There must be more to this puzzle...

There is always more to the story as I don't believe motor oil that suppose to be changed regularly just turn into jello, but MB made couple of engines with no oil sensors and even when there is one - from what I know, the warning comes with some delay. Add that not too many drivers pay much attention to dashboard warning and you have pretty clear scenario.
Than why oil pump would broke? I had oil pump chain broke on 603 engine due PO leaving bearing balls in the pan, but other that that, another scenario hard to imagine.
Than s**T just happens.
My 2008 Bluetec just crossed 170k. So far, so good.

i often wonder about top side oil changes on these

maybe leaving sludge in the motor?

i always drain from the bottom, hot

the speed at which the oil flows out seems to me would carry anything in the pan out

with topside suction the flow is kinda slow maybe leaving sludge

my brother has a diesel boat and they do topside oil changes but once a season does not have many hours on it

10,000 miles and topside oil changes seem risky to me

just my opinion

Steve

I had 603 engine pan removed and did some testing with water in it.
Dipstick with right car lever will remove more oil than side-mounted plug.
Than we are talking less than 1 oz left in the pan this way or the other, when you have couple cups of oil trap in cooler and engine cavities.

This is sludge. This, to me, is clear indication of incorrect oil being used. Sludge occurs when an oil is heated past what it is designed for. When insufficient oil enters the turbocharger it gets overheated and essentially burned. There is enough oil pressure at the turbo to push this burned oil out, and it drains to the oil pan and settles, collects at the bottom.

Sludge blocked the oil pickup tube, resulting in a loss of oil pressure, resulting in seizing of the crank. Engine should be rebuildable if the cylinders didn't score too badly. New main bearings, rod bearings, rings and a hone job might do it. However, the entire motor should be cleaned because there is certainly sludge hidden throughout the oil passages in the head, block etc.

Nothing do with how the oil was change (top side v drain) or the shape of anything. Just wrong oil.

I have never seen any sludging in an OM642 where the owner had done their own oil changes from day 1 with correct 229.51 oil. When inspecting these engines they are completely clean inside.

Sludge can occur when the correct oil is used. Just have the oil pass over a very hot area (e.g. turbo) or flow was restricted. His has occurred when exhaust pipes are too close to the oil pan or oil pathway. The oil thickens and/or cokes in a channels.
Solutions have been to re-route pipes, install larger radiator and turn off fan sooner (e.g., Toyota Sienna), having a larger oil cooler, enlarge and/or straighten oil return lines. A failed oil pump will cause sludge. You likely won't be able to tell what failed first the pump or oil.

I doubt that the suction method will remove much sludge or coke. Once the sludge starts, it grows in size.

Not saying this is occurring the the OM642, just that these problem and fixes have occurred in other cars.

I can't speak for the Toyota Sienna specifically, but I know of multiple instances of "sludging" that resulted in revised (read: upgraded) oil recommendations. Usually this involved upgrading the recommendation from a traditional or blend oil to a Group 3/4 synthetic.

My point is that a proper 229.51 will not sludge in this motor.

Some brands of oil may not safely achieve the normal oil change interval either, compared to the MB branded oil. If you take a look at my Oil analysis thread, you will see that the M1 ESP, which meets both the 229.51 and 229.52 spec, shows trending signs of break down at 10,000kms compared to the MB 229.52, which still shows good at 18,000kms.

Key observations:
1. straight line increase in viscosity (normally would expect a drop before thickening starts to occur)
2. Drop in flashpoint below recommended spec
3. Signs of oxidation

Excess oil in intercooler and exhuast due to turbo failure
 

After a turbo rebuilt using an XATurbo rebuilding kit, oil has flooded these two area. What are the best way to clean out the oil before the oil smudges?
seems to me a steady leak of oil from turbo can start an oil smudging cascade

I never hesitated to spray water under good pressure from garden hose on any of my engines.
On gasoline engine I am not directing water on coils, but they get wet.
On older engines water would foul a plug wire, so sometimes I drove for 1/4 mile with missing cylinder, but it would dry out with heat.

I think that becomes a little more problematic with newer engines because of the amount of electronics and what not. First time I encountered it was with an early '90's Dodge. Washed the engine and the car never worked properly again after that. Had to replace some sort of computer module.

Electronics suppose to be extremely well protected. Even when the lid seal fails, whole boards are covered with epoxy or other stuff.
On my Blutec I had Glow Plug Module dying what happen next day after 3rd engine wash (dealer kept the engine very dirty).
I was wondering if my washing might participate in the failure, so took the module apart.
Perfectly dry and clean inside, yet something gave a ghost.
I've been flooding my electronic Powerstrokes with water for years and never had a failure.
Sure when you deal with set of injectors that cost 6 grands to replace -you worry.

I prefer using engine degreaser and using lower pressure water, however, now I usually just end up wiping down what I can buy hand.

You have long Q-tips for that?
The bottom of the valley on those engines do have like 1/4" wide access in several places.

No. Those hard to reach places generally get left uncleaned. Which is not a big deal because they don't get all that dirty unless there's a leak or spill of some sort, which I haven't had.

When I changed an injector, I got in there with a toothbrush to get the black death off.

As I said, my engine was kept very filthy by the servicing dealer, when the rest of the car was pristine.
Suspecting oil cooler leak I wanted to pinpoint the leak and for that you need the engine perfectly clean. Took me 3 washing before I could see bottom of the valley.
Turned out my cooler was replaced but I had unsealed turbo intake, where breather was spitting oil residue and later discovered broken oring on turbo outlet pipe.
The few seconds I take twice a year to wash the engine, always pay back in time when you have to troubleshoot something.
Sure having 150 psi city water pressure and commercial water nozzles helps a lot.

was told that the new oils are conductive and creep along wires. It causes shorts such as at the swirl motor.
What is a great way to clean out att the oil that got in the DPF for burning will leave high amount of SAPS?

also great deal on Liq moly 299.52 oil at idparts 5L for $40

The cheapest way to clean out the dpf is to go for a long high speed drive to get the engine good and hot and to invoke a regen cycle.

[QUOTE=marc hanna;6870160]Some brands of oil may not safely achieve the normal oil change interval either, compared to the MB branded oil. If you take a look at my Oil analysis thread, you will see that the M1 ESP, which meets both the 229.51 and 229.52 spec, shows trending signs of break down at 10,000kms compared to the MB 229.52, which still shows good at 18,000kms.

Which M1 and viscosity did you use? MB 229.52 is made by Exxon Mobil. But what EM product best match the MB product? Is it the non-M1 line on the bevo list?

MB oil is made by Petronas. My test was with the M1 0W30 ESP 229.52.


https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...3e710dad0.jpeg

MB 229.52 is made by Exxon Mobil. But what EM product best match the MB product? Is it the non-M1 line on the bevo list?[/QUOTE]
That was from mods on the USA product

Got some 229.52 lie moly 4605 that has a very high mileage rating. But do not know if that rating is for gas or diesel.
I am concerned about all the ASPS that will be left in the dpf or dpf overheating with a burnout after being flood with oil

BTW: I noticed the the SAPS are now at Liq Moly Top Tec 5W-30 4605 229.52 is NMt 0.8% instead of NMT 0.6% on 229.51 oil. As with the 229.5x oil, the 30 is on the very high viscosity side of 30 oil. HTST is NLT 3.5 mPas Possible the dpf was not a sensitive as originally thought to be.

Too bad HD Diesel engine oil (5W-40), it both too thick and too high in SAPS. The 229.52 are getting more reasonable in price these days. How long before the prices goes up again?

I don't think the viscosity is so much the issue as it is the low-SAPS. I think the BlueTec is a long term emissions solution, so there shouldn't be any technology related cost increases, prices would be dependent on cost of producing additives and base-stocks.

Mercedes 299.5x oil have a very high viscosity for the 30 weight oil and very low for the 40 weight oil. The hd-delo 40 weight is quite high in viscosity and extreme high base and sheer strength. Great engine protection and durable oil but the mercedes car dpf can't take the higher SAPS. Why can mercedes make or use a dpf that can take the high SAPS like the trucks?

Nonsense!:smash:

That was from mods on the USA product

Got some 229.52 lie moly 4605 that has a very high mileage rating. But do not know if that rating is for gas or diesel.
I am concerned about all the ASPS that will be left in the dpf or dpf overheating with a burnout after being flood with oil[/QUOTE]

The simple answer to the dpf is space!

There is no viscosity issue here. Blending to the higher end of a specific viscosity range just increases the price of the formulation. Today the heavier base stocks are more expensive than the lighter ones.

Benz OE 229,52 is not made by ExxonMobil.

+1^:y

Originally Posted by marc hanna https://mbworld.org/forums/images/cu...s/viewpost.gif
The cheapest way to clean out the dpf is to go for a long high speed drive to get the engine good and hot and to invoke a regen cycle.




How to get the regen started in 2008 Bluetec?

:confused:

Making an oil electrolytic while preserving functional properties is actually a rather complex process. It also adds a lot of cost to the product. It certainly would not be an unintended side affect. With machine coolants, electrolytic oils (used for spark erosion processes) are triple the price of other oil coolants. If you thought your low-SAPS oil was expensive now, make it conduct electricity :)

The simple answer to the dpf is space!

There is no viscosity issue here. Blending to the higher end of a specific viscosity range just increases the price of the formulation. Today the heavier base stocks are more expensive than the lighter ones.

Benz OE 229,52 is not made by ExxonMobil.[/QUOTE]

I got that info from US MSDS on the mercedes 229.52 oil
The mechanic said the oil shorted out the swirl motor due to the oil's conductivity and ability to creep up wire. So this explanation is incorrect?

What do you mean that the dpf is space? Going to fail soon? The upstream oxygen sensor threw a code after 100 miles of highway driving.

This car's maintenance is getting expensive. Especially if the dpf needs replacing. :mad::nix::nix:

Will liq moly 4605 a HC based 229.52 product out preform 229.51 oil in a 2009 e320 bluetec?

If there is a lot of iron and other suspended solids in the oil, that could potentially cause enough conductivity, but I still doubt this is the cause.

Don't emissions components come with a min. 10 year warranty?

Edit: 8 years or 80,000 miles for Specified Major Emission Components
-the DPF is oddly absent from the law

No. The differences in 51 to 52 make no difference to performance. They introduce another viscosity grade & reduce Chlorine's for recycling purposes!

Most linear chlorinated compounds especially fully chlorinated are very stable.
The tech sheet is implying a longer oci with the new 4605 oil. I can see a 40 weight going above the mercedes viscosity spec while the 30 weight will take long to get that thick. I thought that the antioxidant were increased with the 229.52 oil and can be used in both 229.5 and 229.51 if the viscosity of 30 was okay.
So the extra $1 per liter would be just for recycling?

The reduction in chlorines in 229.52 is purely so they don't pollute other oils when mixed for recycling. No increase in antiox!

The starting viscosity is not necessarily an indication of how soon it will thicken out of spec. It's the performance properties of the oil and the operating conditions. Most oils should see a drop in viscosity first, and then an increase as they get contaminated with soot and fuel. Therefore it's quite possible that one formulation at 40w may straight-line drop in viscosity while another 30w may straight-line increase (or vice versa).

Main causes of oil thinning:
1) Shear of the VI improver or viscosity modifiers in Multigrade oils
2) Fuel dilution
3) High temperature thermal cracking
4) HTHS of the base stock

Main Causes of oil thickening:
1) Soot & other contaminants in oil
2) Oxidation
3) Evapourative thickening due to loss of light ends. Poor (high) Noack values of the base oil

An interesting discussion. Thankyou.

I don't think there has been any mention of how well each oil actually cleans the working areas of the engine i.e. keeping the rings/bore free & clean .

I would think that more contaminants in an oil is a good thing because the detergents are doing their job. I suppose it is how well the oil handles these contaminants is the main thing?.

More contaminants in the oil is never a good thing. But I see what you're getting at.

The ability to strip contaminants from an existing bad situation and hold them in suspension may be a good attribute. On the other hand, you actually want them to settle out in the oil pan so that they don't get circulated throughout the engine for subsequent extraction during an oil change. In such cases though, i think you would want to have short oil change intervals, until the contamination levels start to wane, or when the appropriate repair is made. This might be what you would expect in a remedial situation.

At any rate, you don't want to see high contaminants on an ongoing basis, because that means your oil isn't doing its job, or something else more severe is going on. Consider the detergents in oil as a preventative cleaning - not remedial - that's what other products are made for; like Seafoam.

You should not have contaminats in the oil to start with. That what the filter is for.
Glyn seems to be oil expert here, but I heard story that with advanced oil filtration and chem pack replenish, you can run motor oil indefinitely.
That suppose what they do on ship engines that run high hr very fast and tons of oil make expensive filtration worth while.
Than my old 2-cycle Detrot diesel was allowing 100,000 miles oil intervals. It had remote filter in good size, that was easy to replace, although the manual did not call for new filter between changes.

+1

If you have a back flushing micron filter, you should be able to run indefinitely (relatively speaking - even micron filter elements need to be replaced eventually, but they should last for several years)

That being said, with the amount of EGR these days, there's a lot more crap getting past the rings into the oil.

GL350 Catastrophic Engine Failure
 

Reading this thread is like reliving the last three weeks! GL350 complete engine failure while traveling on interstate. Lucky no one was injured. No warning lights. Car is 2011 with 118K miles so out of warranty. Spent more than 8K on repairs in the last 14 months, including timing chain and oil leaks. Was never warned about possibility of a complete engine failure, otherwise would never have risked my family's safety (as well as safety of drivers around us at the time of failure). Only serviced at MB dealerships and always on time. MB knows but pretends they don't. MBUSA also pretends to care - offering $2 to $3k toward new MB - seriously? We will see what local MB dealer says this week re trade in value of dead car. Not optimistic after reading this and thank you for potentially saving me months of beating my head against MB's wall of indifference and, in some cases, deceit. My hope is that people considering buying bluetec from MB will run away from this car and this company. Paid premium price for what was billed as a premium product by a premium company. What I got was more than $10k in repairs over 5 years and a dead car. Again if you are reading this because you are considering buying this or similar vehicle, do your homework because these posts are just a tip of the Mercedes Benz nightmare iceberg.

Been driving it for over five years and a first post here eh!

Could you tell us little more details of what happened?

Sorry to hear of your plight.

Interested to know what engine oil MB used in their servicing. Did the engine seize?

Looking into the service records re type of oil - but looking at this thread it seems like it won't make much of a difference in getting MB to step up. They've demonstrated that they are not good with stairs.

$1,200 just for MB service guys to try and find out what was wrong with the car. They said crank shaft was stripped and didn't go any further because of expense to find out root cause. I asked MBUSA if they cared about what happened particularly given the potential safety nightmare when a car's engine just stops. Service rep said they did care but that doesn't seem to translate into figuring out what's happening with the vehicle or they already know - otherwise risky business to risk injury to customers.

We are going to see what type of salvage value we can get for the car - which is in fantastic shape - body, interior. Shame as the car was a beautiful beast!

Sad to hear you incident GL350ALOSER.
You are one more person that has problem with dealer-serviced car.
I think there must be something to it.
My 320 Bluetec was dealer-serviced by PO and even the car is pristine at >160k, I had to spend $600 to fix dealer-inflicted issues under the hood.
Clogged filters, bend clips. split hoses, rapture orings, broken grommets.
As long as car will not show light on the dashboard, the owner is unaware about lousy job. They wash top of the cover, while leaving several lb of gunk on the engine.

Please tell us what type of oil and how many miles since the change, or did it just run out of engine lube oil?


Worn out timing chain in 118,000 miles sounds little premature.

It appears as though these failures are dealer related, because it's certainly not an endemic problem. These motors have been manufactured for many years now and continue to be so, and you would expect these failures, if they were design related to be more prominent.

It would be a reasonable hypothesis that the dealers are cheaping-out on the oil they use. I do my own oil changes and perform routine oil analysis, and there are no signs of sludging or mechanical wear, and I have just over 120,000 kms on mine now.

It wouldn't surprise me if the dealers were just putting 229.5 oil in there, thinking it doesn't matter.

I would like to see whether the oil was still a fluid or had sludged. They may have taken the sump off to check the crankshaft.

Interesting thread. I've only got 13,500 miles on my 2014 ML350 Bluetec (my first Mercedes and I love it). I was thinking of upgrading to a GLS350d when they finally start selling them later this year, but this thread, particularly how MBUSA treated the OP, has given me pause. I certainly won't be keeping my ML350 beyond the warranty period!

That is not going to be cheap neither :bow:
Would I be in your shoes, I would keep every single receipt from services and make double sure the receipts are detailed.
Somehow I have a feeling that the above incidents are dealer-inflicted and not necessary have to be bad engine design.

You also have to remember, this thread shows a couple isolated incidents. There are a lot of these engines out there - millions - these were in the R-class, ML, GL, E, Sprinter, Grand Cherokee, and Chrysler 300.

I've only heard the testimony of half a dozen people having this problem. Mind you, their voices are loud, but if it were a design or manufacturing issue, you'd have hundreds of thousands of engines having the same problem.

Maybe a few ducks have to line up to create the conditions for failure.

Too bad we don't have more info on the exact nature of the failures. So far it appears to be oil related, presumably because of sludging. This would suggest wrong grade of oil or too long of oil change interval, regardless of whether or not it was the fault of the dealer.

Is the an inexpensive way to tell what oil was put into the engine? 229.5 is much less costly than 229.51 and 229.52 oils. is there and cheap and easy SAPS test? Preferably a home garage test.
Or to check for high detergent in deo.

Not that I know of.

Spooning black jelly out of a sump maybe one :D

That would be a very expensive way if the engine seized.
I was thinking that with paper chromatography or spot blotting, the detergent may be UV absorbing or florescent.
I don't have soot contaminated 229.5 oil and 229.51 oil for testing it out.

May just changing the filter at 5,000 miles might be good insurance.

The quickest & easiest check is an IR scan. Not DIY. BTW 229.5 costs more to formulate!

At WalMart in the USA, M1 for 229.5 can go as low as $13 for 5 qt jug with the rebate coupon. $23 typical full price.
229.51 oil goes for $40 to $55 at auto stores (not sold at WalMart nor coupons available).
How they set the price has always puzzled me.

At the MBZ dealer, the 229.5 oil & filter change is about $110 (sales readily available), while the 229.51 oil change is $160 to $180 (no sales). Urea is extra.

I may have access to in IR scanner. How is it done?

I thought it was the other way around on account of the expensive additives that are put blended in to compensate for the low SAPS.

I appreciate how this thread has developed since I started it in May of 2015, as information posted herein is evidently helping others in similar situations (or providing guidance on how to avoid similar occurrences). I obviously agree with many of you who have indicated that it's unfathomable that MBUSA has failed to acknowledge that a problem exists among, or at least with, MB's OM642 diesel engine and/or oil specification and/or the recommended (at the time) oil change interval of 10K miles. For me, all MBUSA had to do in 2015 was to make a reasonable effort to help make things right with me. Instead, MBUSA issued me a cease-and-desist order to stop communications with them, thus losing me as an MB customer for life.

2016 has fared much better for me with automobiles. I've never been happier with cars (costs, maintenance, and reliability) than I am now with my family's fleet of Mazdas, a Toyota, and a Chevrolet (and I no longer feel obligated to tip more than 20% at the coffee kiosk because of what I'm driving :) . When I'm ready to embrace a luxury car again, it will most likely be a Tesla or the like without a diesel engine.

All things considered, I really believe the book Driven to Delight (released in December 2015) serves more as a public relations ploy to redeem MBUSA's customer service and product image. For more details on this, see my other thread here (hopefully there are more readers of Driven to Delight than the following thread currently represents):
https://mbworld.org/forums/collectib...rated-yet.html

I'll continue to monitor this thread from time to time to see how things evolve for you MB drivers. May you have a better MBUSA experience than my learning experience was.

Are you now here to sell us a book?

neil
 

i to hd a c350 diesel engine seize after 25000 miles from new without warning mercedes told me it was one of the main bearing bolts had come out.was replaced under warranty but not impressed by mercedes at all

Could you be more specific please.

If they repaired it under warranty (at no cost?) - what is wrong with that?

1. Should not happen, poor quality control.
2. Large inconvenience.

c350 engine seized
 

all mercedes told me was a main bearing bolt had come out and had caused the engine to seize i was 400 miles from home on a bank holiday sunday.had to spend two days in a hotel untill a hire car was given to me.i also had a engine management light come on which caused us to cancell a trip prior to this.give mercedes credit for replacing everything under warranty but is this what you pay £40000 for.i will not buy another one.

Additionally, if you're still quick to defend MBUSA this year, do consider the several occurrences in this thread, and those surfacing in many other sources (via quick Google searches) like reliable ones as follows:

http://repairpal.com/mercedes-benz/ml350/car_reviews

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/auto...es.html?page=2

And here's a recent and very notable MB engine failure: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/126527
The MB fix? Yet another oil specification revision.

Many former Mercedes owners, like me, have had commonly poor experiences with product and service quality, and have abandoned the MB brand due to dissatisfaction.

It is clear to me that MBUSA still has much to improve upon in the client retention arena.

Question, does anyone have a copy of the historical spec sheets for Mobil 1 ESP Formula 5w40 I am curious if it was MB 229.51 or MB-Approval 229.51.

My engine in my 09 GL blew up at 88k after only dealer service and as I was going through my receipts I only noticed that the proper spec 229.52 0w30 MB oil started to be used late 2014 despite the mentioning of the new spec in the documents I was able to read on this site that that standard was promulgated in 2013 for my 164.825.

Yes much to be improved on CS and quality control.
Are the oxygen sensors covered under the warranty? Could not get an answer from the local dealer who referred to mbusa. Of course mbusa after 20 minutes on hold referred me back to the local dealer. Local dealer said being it in for a $150 diagnosis and then we can tell.

So far, glow plug module, swirl motor, turbo and two oxygen sensors replaced plus the normal maintainance at 50,000 to 100,000 miles. CD no longer worked at 60,000 miles.

Compared to Toyota with the idle control valve, evap canister at under 100,000 miles and horn coil spring replaced ( was streering column that needed cleaning instead). Still going strong at 180,000 miles. Side window motor also failed.

I've been hit by the sludge monster
 

My wife purchased a 2012 Mercedes GL350 Blue Tec 4MATIC Diesel in December 2015 from ----- in West Chester, Pa. She also purchased an extended warranty for the vehicle from a 3rd party.

In March 2016 I noticed an oil leak and she took the vehicle to a dealer in Mechanicsburg, Pa on March 23rd 2016 to have it looked at. The service invoice shows that the oil cooler needed to be replaced, but the warranty was declined. We contacted the purchasing dealer and the warranty company, and of course no one wanted to pay...they did offer to pay half the cost if we took the vehicle to a their suggested mechanic since the fix would be cheaper than the dealership. Because of the month long battle with the dealership and warranty company, the oil cooler replacement was done May 4th, 2016 by the suggested mechanic. Notes on this invoice include “Found that the job had been done prior. Missing bolts, threads were pulled in various places. Sludge in oil pan PTS.” “Lube, Oil & Filter ( Up to 5 Qts w/ Semi-Synthetic).” I have read a lot about the Blue Tec engines since this happened and they are very specific about oil and Semi-Synthetic doesn’t sound right, not to mention, the vehicle holds almost 10 qts. Apparently the garage is currently in litigation over the practices of the person that performed our repair…not sure if he was a sub or an employee.

After the repair the vehicle had been taken to the dealer for engine light indicators in May and November 2016. Multi point inspections were done, but there was never a mention that the vehicle needed an oil change.

Christmas morning 2016 while we were visiting family in Joliet IL the vehicle stopped running. It was towed to a dealer in Naperville IL. They determined that the oil was so bad that the sludge destroyed the engine. The customer care manager gave me a quote for a new engine at $30,000 ($25,000 for the engine, $5,000 for labor) over the phone. He sent me pictures and asked me to send him my service records. He was able to determine that the oil had been changed by the original owner at Benz dealers at the required 10,000, 20,0000, 30,000, 40,000 and 50,000 mile intervals. My wife purchased the vehicle at roughly 51,000 miles and at 60,000 it was changed by the suggested mechanic…or at least oil was added and sludge was noticed at that time. The vehicle broke down at 76,000…roughly 5-6,000 miles past the recommended 10,000 mile interval, which obviously voids the extended warranty. The next day the CSM told me that he contacted MBUSA and they offered to reduce the cost of the engine by a third, from $25,000 to $17,000. Although he said the total cost, including the diagnosis (which was quoted at $950) would be $17,000 with whatever other discounts they were offering. The CSM said the Naperville dealership (who really has nothing in this) is also offering a discount…so they’re not charging for labor??? Seems suspicious.

After some research on the internet I found that there are many people that have experienced the same issues we have…most prevalently, the oil cooler but also the oil sludge and ruined engines. The CSM also told me that they tested the fuel in our vehicle and the ethanol content was 30%...the vehicle recommends 5%, but there are almost no gas stations that offer diesel fuel at 5%. In essence, the vehicle is designed to run on fuel that you can’t purchase. My concern is that according to the suggested mechanic, there was sludge at 60,000 miles…even after the vehicle was serviced timely by Mercedes Benz dealers. I’m pretty sure sludge just doesn’t disappear…so it seems the engine was a ticking time bomb as it was.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...dad2b9548e.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...947c2483b3.jpg

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mbw...1c2359a2b3.jpg

My that is some nasty oil. It doesn't look like it has ever been changed, which is likely why no one will stand behind the warranty. Oil changes and oil quality are so important that some of us will not let anyone else change our oil. You have our sympathy. As you can see from this thread, finding someone to take the blame for your problem is going to be difficult.

If I were in your situation I would find a junk yard engine and have it installed, once you have exhausted your efforts to get assistance. If you do, use 229.52 oil and change every 5000 miles. If you have someone do it, provide the oil, so they have no incentive to leave the old oil in.

It is essential that owners of this engine make a large effort to take full control of their servicing to ensure the correct oil is added at the correct time. MB should put out a flyer to each owner advising that this engine is susceptible to sludging & catastrophic damage if the recommended or earlier service intervals is not carried out.