4.7 Bi-Turbo: Laughingly under rated...
#51
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You're welcome.
I think the 12 E550 coupe was tested a while back in one of the euro car mags and I can't remember which one as I get them all; the car ran about .4 quicker 0-62 vs the '11 if I remember correctly. I don't know why the US mags haven't published any info yet?
I think the 12 E550 coupe was tested a while back in one of the euro car mags and I can't remember which one as I get them all; the car ran about .4 quicker 0-62 vs the '11 if I remember correctly. I don't know why the US mags haven't published any info yet?
#52
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2012 E550 Coupe
Here's some for you, the 4 matic sedan is heavier but gets the power to the pavement better. These are the best acceleration numbers I've seen published for any E550, coupe/cab/sedan; I think the extra grip really pays off with the new found extra torque. The runflats (standard on the new SL) are a dissapointment but the best runflats I've tested so far.
2012 E550 (4 matic with better grip) 0-60 4.3, qm 12.8 @ 112 mph
(these times for this car are already being contested on the W212 forum as too good) https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...ar-driver.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review
2013 SL550 0-60 3.9, qm 12.3 no traps
http://www.zeroto60times.com/Mercede...mph-Times.html
2013 SL 550 0-60 4.0, qm 12.5 @ 114 mph
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...50_first_test/
With the new SL's much improved lighter weight, extra hp and giant torque the E is simply outgunned.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
The new single turbo V8 should really be someting for '14 as it's supposed to have even more power and better mpg than the TT.
Sadly if history is to be any guide when power gets this good in regular productions cars, the end is less than a decade away
2012 E550 (4 matic with better grip) 0-60 4.3, qm 12.8 @ 112 mph
(these times for this car are already being contested on the W212 forum as too good) https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...ar-driver.html
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...an-test-review
2013 SL550 0-60 3.9, qm 12.3 no traps
http://www.zeroto60times.com/Mercede...mph-Times.html
2013 SL 550 0-60 4.0, qm 12.5 @ 114 mph
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...50_first_test/
With the new SL's much improved lighter weight, extra hp and giant torque the E is simply outgunned.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...t-drive-review
The new single turbo V8 should really be someting for '14 as it's supposed to have even more power and better mpg than the TT.
Sadly if history is to be any guide when power gets this good in regular productions cars, the end is less than a decade away
I'm still somewhat skeptical that these numbers will apply. The base sedan is heavier than the coupe, and the 4matic has even more girth. And while all-wheel drive gives a better 60' time, the unsprung mass will reduce acceleration beyond that point. I've raced plenty of AWD cars that jump faster but I'm flying past them the mid-point.
As to the weight difference, the rule of thumb is .1 second per 100 pounds; the 4matic weighs 4034lbs, the coupe 3773lbs (from MBUSA.com). That's roughly a quarter second just from the weight differential. That narrows the gap to less than .25 seconds between the SL and the E, and none of the tests were conducted on the same track under the same conditions. And remember, again, that the SL has more rubber on the ground (285 vs. 255).
I think it's too close to call. RJC, if you end up buying the SL, let's meet midway and put it to the test. I'll have my wheels and tires by then.
#53
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2012 E550 Coupe
I just received a response from my the product design team at RennTech:
Yes, we also feel that the E550s really have a hard time with traction. We are currently working on a Limited Slip for the 550s. Unfortunately the 550 differential is nothing like the 63s, so we have to have it tooled from scratch. Please check back with us as we’re not certain of a timeline at this moment. As you can imagine, these things take a bit of time.
Thank you very much for your interest in our products and we look forward to working with you.
Kind Regards,
Dian Esterhuyse
Thank you very much for your interest in our products and we look forward to working with you.
Kind Regards,
Dian Esterhuyse
#54
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Make of the numbers what you wish. MB caught a lot of flack putting the same powered engine in the E as the S which they've now appropriately rectified.
According to the new Automobile mag the 14 S sedans base V8 will be 510hp and they all get a 20hp increase from hybrid tech.
Lol...I'm way beyond the drag racing days but thanks anyways.
According to the new Automobile mag the 14 S sedans base V8 will be 510hp and they all get a 20hp increase from hybrid tech.
Lol...I'm way beyond the drag racing days but thanks anyways.
Last edited by RJC; 06-05-2012 at 09:21 PM.
#56
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Did you guys realize the new SL weighs less than the 550 cab by 113 lbs? 4048 E550 and 3935 for the SL; thats quite a feat considering the SL has more standard equiment which adds hundreds of lbs plus the SL has 20 more hp and about 70 more lb ft if of torque so its power to weight ratio is significant and it darn well should be for $117,000.00!!!! Lol. The SL's extra power and torque should easily overcome the extra 160 lbs of weight vs the coupe; an extra 70 lb ft of trq is a ton let alone the 20 more HP. I do think the E550's offer a tremendous bang for the buck!
Last edited by RJC; 06-06-2012 at 12:06 AM.
#57
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2012 E550 Coupe
Back on topic:
The real question is whether MB numbers are accurate. It wouldn't be the first time that a manufacturer has given their top-line products an edge on paper. When I had my audio retail store in the 90s, product literature for mid-range products often omitted the advanced capabilities, or "suppressed" real performance specifications, that were prominently featured in their halo devices.
I haven't heard any rebuttal of RennTech's dyno numbers and those are much higher than advertised. But it wouldn't shock me to learn that the difference in OEM specs was created by the marketing department.
I have no doubt that a proud new SL550 owner will take their car to a dyno shop ASAP. When that happens, we'll have some WHP numbers for comparison.
In the meantime, I was already planning to take my car to a dyno shop and get a baseline before mods. At least we'll have a comparison to the RennTech numbers.
BTW, I was serious about wanting to drive your car.
#58
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[quote=nawlinstornado;5227783]I just received a response from my the product design team at RennTech:
[/FONT][/COLOR
Good to see they're working on it. Please keep us posted. Thanks
Great!
[/FONT][/COLOR
Good to see they're working on it. Please keep us posted. Thanks
Great!
Last edited by Dueclaws; 06-06-2012 at 08:48 AM.
#59
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2012 E550 Coupe
I found a review of the 2013 SL550 in Motortrend.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...50_first_test/
It weighs 4104lbs with a 52/48 distribution (f/r). If I remember their testing methodology, they actually weigh the vehicle. MB's "estimated" curb weight is 3935.
FYI
#60
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2012 E550 Coupe
This is getting painful:
What the hell?!?!?!
Me to KleemannUSA
I was unable to determine from online research if Kleemann offers an LSD to fit the 2012 MB E550 BiTurbo (C207 with M278 motor). Do you/they have one? If so, can you provide specifications and pricing?
I was unable to determine from online research if Kleemann offers an LSD to fit the 2012 MB E550 BiTurbo (C207 with M278 motor). Do you/they have one? If so, can you provide specifications and pricing?
Reponse from KleemannUSA
That's an excellent question- amazingly, I've not had anyone inquire about one yet.
Let me check with the boys at KLEEMANN World Headquarters, and I'll see if we can do anything for you....
Cory Umemoto
Technical Manager
That's an excellent question- amazingly, I've not had anyone inquire about one yet.
Let me check with the boys at KLEEMANN World Headquarters, and I'll see if we can do anything for you....
Cory Umemoto
Technical Manager
What the hell?!?!?!
#61
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Nawlins-
That '13 SL is pretty quick at 4 secs 0-60. See if you can beat it after you add the wide tires.
You might want to check reliability on Kleeman's LSD. I've read that the "blocks" wear.
When are you going to dyno your E?
Due
That '13 SL is pretty quick at 4 secs 0-60. See if you can beat it after you add the wide tires.
You might want to check reliability on Kleeman's LSD. I've read that the "blocks" wear.
When are you going to dyno your E?
Due
#62
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2012 E550 Coupe
I've seen the same numbers you posted on the SL, but no commentary on the conditions or measurement process. A lot of those magazine reviewers are lazy and use a stupid gtech on the street. In my experience, they give numbers that are much better than reality.
I'm planning to do my stock testing this fall. Maryland International Raceway has lots of Test & Tune nights, and I found a dyno tester nearby that is relatively inexpensive. I would do it earlier but we're in the process of moving. I've already made tentative plans with some local friends for the October 12th weekend at MIR. I'll probably do the dyno runs a week or two prior.
Just in case you're wondering, my rough test plan is:
Bone stock: Dyno + drag (1/4 mile, not that wimpy 1/8 mile!)
Plus wheels/tires: drag
Plus LSD: dyno + drag
Plus ECU: dyno + drag
Plus transmission: dyno + drag
I'm not sure about the transmission or ECU just yet. If my dyno numbers are anything like RennTech's, then I may hold off for a bit. Then again, knowing me, I'll get used to the LSD and extra rubber and find myself with a hankering for more power.
I'm doing an extra dyno run after the LSD to see if the rebuild reduces some of the drivetrain losses from the stock setup. Same for post-transmission rebuild, if I actually do it.
Last edited by nawlinstornado; 06-06-2012 at 04:39 PM.
#63
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2012 E550 Coupe
See here: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-c...-1-4-mile.html
'nuff said.
#64
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2012 E550 Coupe
Screw Motortrend. My 2012 E550C is faster than their 2013 SL550.
See here: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-c...-1-4-mile.html
'nuff said.
See here: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-c...-1-4-mile.html
'nuff said.
Btw your best time is about exactly what you should run based on 402 hp, 3930 weight and the atmospheric conditions yesterday. I based this off some data from a 7.50 run on a former race car at the same track with no head or tail wind.
You can scale your results on subsequent days by multiplying the results by the cube root of ((new temp/old temp)*old barometer reading/new barometer reading). You also have to correct for wind conditions.
#65
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Don't get carried away. Unless you know the absolute temperature, the absolute atmospheric pressure and the wind direction it is impossible to make any meaningful comparison.
Btw your best time is about exactly what you should run based on 402 hp, 3930 weight and the atmospheric conditions yesterday. I based this off some data from a 7.50 run on a former race car at the same track with no head or tail wind.
You can scale your results on subsequent days by multiplying the results by the cube root of ((new temp/old temp)*old barometer reading/new barometer reading). You also have to correct for wind conditions.
Btw your best time is about exactly what you should run based on 402 hp, 3930 weight and the atmospheric conditions yesterday. I based this off some data from a 7.50 run on a former race car at the same track with no head or tail wind.
You can scale your results on subsequent days by multiplying the results by the cube root of ((new temp/old temp)*old barometer reading/new barometer reading). You also have to correct for wind conditions.
2. Your weight is wrong.
3. Comparison to a 7.5 sec race car is ridiculous. You don't have the same drivetrain losses, traction, etc. Let's not forget about fuel. Temps? What, exactly, are the coefficients of friction for my model/size of tire?
Oh, and do a search for CTS-V 1/4 mile times. They are running 12.5 by owners and have 550 HP.
That other car that I ran with on the timeslip was a heavily modded Camaro SS that dyno'd at 442 at the wheels. Same day, same track, same time.
I recommend taking more factors into account than just barometric pressure.
#66
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2012 E550 Coupe
1. Does no one have a sense of humor?
2. Your weight is wrong.
3. Comparison to a 7.5 sec race car is ridiculous. You don't have the same drivetrain losses, traction, etc. Let's not forget about fuel. Temps? What, exactly, are the coefficients of friction for my model/size of tire?
Oh, and do a search for CTS-V 1/4 mile times. They are running 12.5 by owners and have 550 HP.
That other car that I ran with on the timeslip was a heavily modded Camaro SS that dyno'd at 442 at the wheels. Same day, same track, same time.
I recommend taking more factors into account than just barometric pressure.
2. Your weight is wrong.
3. Comparison to a 7.5 sec race car is ridiculous. You don't have the same drivetrain losses, traction, etc. Let's not forget about fuel. Temps? What, exactly, are the coefficients of friction for my model/size of tire?
Oh, and do a search for CTS-V 1/4 mile times. They are running 12.5 by owners and have 550 HP.
That other car that I ran with on the timeslip was a heavily modded Camaro SS that dyno'd at 442 at the wheels. Same day, same track, same time.
I recommend taking more factors into account than just barometric pressure.
You can delude yourself all you want about your car having a lot more then the factory rated Hp if it makes you feel better but facts are facts and physics is physics.
BTW a "heavily modded' Camero that can't get into the low-mid 11's is not running very well. People with Z06 corvettes go into the 10's all the time bone stock.
#67
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2012 E550 Coupe
Is no one capable of reading? The calculation used both atmospheric pressure and temperature. For your information the type of car makes no appreciable difference unless you can't hook up. It's simply horsepower and weight assuming the car is not a barn door. The listed curb weight for a e550 coupe is 3773. To this you have to add the driver weight and any crap you are carrying in the car. 3930 is a guess at the additional weight.
You can delude yourself all you want about your car having a lot more then the factory rated Hp if it makes you feel better but facts are facts and physics is physics.
BTW a "heavily modded' Camero that can't get into the low-mid 11's is not running very well. People with Z06 corvettes go into the 10's all the time bone stock.
You can delude yourself all you want about your car having a lot more then the factory rated Hp if it makes you feel better but facts are facts and physics is physics.
BTW a "heavily modded' Camero that can't get into the low-mid 11's is not running very well. People with Z06 corvettes go into the 10's all the time bone stock.
I'm not deluding myself about the horsepower in my car. But there are a lot of factors at play besides temps, barometric pressure, etc. How about the torque converter TM value and stall speed? Gear ratio? Unsprung vs. Sprung weight? Weight transfer? Tire type, size, and pressure? Your elementary atmospheric calculation only works with the same car and can't be used to compare cars.
By the way, just got the new Motor Trend mag today. They tested the new 2014 Aston Vanquish with 565 horsepower and ran a 12.3 @116.2. Hell, even Godzilla (GT-R) runs mid-11's.
Again, I'm not claiming I have 500 horsepower. Just that the car, as a system, is well designed and balanced AND can hang with cars having significantly more power.
#68
Let's not get carried away, you sound like the government, "oh the weather is to blame for these poor jobs numbers blah blah blah". Weather shmeather. He put up 12.5. Deal with it.
And re: CTS-V comment, those things are hardly designed to actually be good at anything, just typical americans throwing horsepower at a car. My old 328i could probably do better than a CTS-V LOL.
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http://www.dragtimes.com/horsepower-...power+Estimate
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I just found a measured curb weight for the car, added driver and other crap to the balance, and input it into the same too. Here's what you get:
http://www.dragtimes.com/horsepower-...power+Estimate (yields 466hp)
BTW, weight based on measured car weight plus driver (220) and all my normal gear (38 lbs to round up). I did not take into account fuel weight, by I tanked up 2 runs prior and the needle was still pegged on full.
I don't know exactly how much stock to put in those numbers, but it basically jives with RennTech's dyno numbers (392 horsepower and 441 ft.lbs. torque at wheels). Using those numbers with online tools reveals estimated crank horsepower to be:
http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php (yields 484hp). I can't find a tool, but a variety of formulas I found online yield 501 to 545 ft.lbs. of torque.
I definitely feel high numbers are over-estimates. But 450-460hp and 515ft.lbs. seems to be a reasonable estimate of the real power put out by the bi-turbo V8. The more I talk to MB people, the more willing I am to accept that 1) all the bi-turbo models are underrated, 2) that they all put down the same power BUT the marketing people wanted to make S/SL/CL/CLS buyers feel like they got more for their money, and 3) any measured performance above the E-class (which I still haven't seen timeslips for) is the result of wider (and sometimes better) tires. They all come with 285s while the E-class arrives with 255s.
http://www.dragtimes.com/horsepower-...power+Estimate (yields 466hp)
BTW, weight based on measured car weight plus driver (220) and all my normal gear (38 lbs to round up). I did not take into account fuel weight, by I tanked up 2 runs prior and the needle was still pegged on full.
I don't know exactly how much stock to put in those numbers, but it basically jives with RennTech's dyno numbers (392 horsepower and 441 ft.lbs. torque at wheels). Using those numbers with online tools reveals estimated crank horsepower to be:
http://www.mk5cortinaestate.co.uk/calculator4.php (yields 484hp). I can't find a tool, but a variety of formulas I found online yield 501 to 545 ft.lbs. of torque.
I definitely feel high numbers are over-estimates. But 450-460hp and 515ft.lbs. seems to be a reasonable estimate of the real power put out by the bi-turbo V8. The more I talk to MB people, the more willing I am to accept that 1) all the bi-turbo models are underrated, 2) that they all put down the same power BUT the marketing people wanted to make S/SL/CL/CLS buyers feel like they got more for their money, and 3) any measured performance above the E-class (which I still haven't seen timeslips for) is the result of wider (and sometimes better) tires. They all come with 285s while the E-class arrives with 255s.
Last edited by nawlinstornado; 03-11-2013 at 01:40 PM.
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'13 E550 Cabriolet
P.S. thanks for adding your time to dragtimes
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It was kind of fun, so happy to do it.
BTW, check out: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-c...rs-wanted.html. Now that Quaife is finally producing an LSD for the E550C, that's my next upgrade.