jeffjensen121

FD-

I did that, it works just as you described. Did not have a chance to get any further on checking hoses, but I'm guessing with no pump running with the switch pushed back for down, a microswitch issue?

When I finally get this fixed, I'll need to get your address so I can send you a nice bottle of wine for all your help.

Jeff

Floobydust

Jeff -

Always glad to help a fellow Cabrio owner.

What you found was good. I'm thinking microswitch also - in fact, I'm thinking that the rear bow latch is the culprit.

Try the following: get a buddy in position so that he can push down right in the center bottom of the rear bow, below the rear window and just above when the latch is. Start the car and try to close the roof as you just did while your friend is pushing down hard on the rear bow as described above while you have the top swtich pulled back. I the idea here is that the latch is not quite closed and is stuck part way open/closed. You will be trying to force it all the way closed. After doing this, try to open the top per the regular procedure.

The reason I am suggesting this is that I had the equivalent problem on my SL500 after I replaced the top (the W124 Cabrio uses almost the same top system as the R129 - many of the parts are interchangeable). On the SL there are two rear bow latches and I had the top canvas stretched so tight that they could not pull on the way closed. When that happened, the latch(es) were mechanically locked, but the microswitch told the controller they were open. The controller would then try to raise the rear bow without passing hydraulic pressure to the latches which caused a "bow took too long" flash error. I had two friends (one fore each side) do roughly the same and I was able to open the top and re-adjust the canvas tension.

I think you have the W124 equivalent. Let me know what happens.

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD-

I tried that with no results. had an emp do the switch while I pushed down, first inside, then out. I'm a big guy(300 lbs) and nothing budged. I also tried pushing down and using the latch tool to lock and unlock, again no results. Do I need to pull the seats to get at this switch?

Jeff-

Floobydust

Jeff -

I was afraid things might get here. I do not know of a way to open or access the rear bow latch and/or microswitch without the top being open first (anyone out there who knows - please chime in). They are enclosed inside a metal cover which is bolted with 16 10mm nuts to the underside of the hard tonneau. It may be possible (and this is just a theory) to remove the rear seat back and then remove the entire roll bar assembly to provide enough access to under the 16 nuts and access the latch/microswitch. But I would never want to try that as it would take hours to do, if it is even possible.

If you are game, I am going to look into a method to "jumper" a few things at the controller to force the latch to open. It would involve a few small electrical jumps leads (available at Radio Shack for about $5), and, if the solenoid is still properly connected, would have your top open in about 10 minutes. Let me know and I will test it on my Cabrio and post the procedure here.

And again, if anyone knows a mechanical method to open the rear latch, please chime in.

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD,

I'm game, but a little leery, not of your advice, but I have horrible luck working with electricity. I am prone to blowing things up, shorting them out, etc... I will probably have a bunch of questions on this. I think and work visually and sometimes have a hard time transferring a diagram to what is in front of me.
That said, let's get this top open.

Jeff.

P.S. I will get those gas lifters on first before we proceed.

Floobydust

Jeff -

I tried my top "procedure" today and it worked perfectly - the rear bow popped right open. Ten minutes, start to finish (not including the trip to Radio Shack). And the good news is that given the way the connectors are wired, the worst thing you could do is blow a fuse if you connect something in error. I will post a detailed step-by-step PDF with photos soon - no need to read schematics.

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD-

Sweet! Now if the Pac NW weather Gods will stop the rain I'll soon be traveling with the wind in my hair! lol, actually more like the wind on my scalp.

Floobydust

Here you go - I put it all in the PDF. PM/post if you have any questions and let us know how it goes.

Have a good weekend!

- FD

jeffjensen121

Thank you FD!

I will let you know what happens..

Jeff

jeffjensen121

FD-

I do have a few quick questions: Can I lower the top all the way with this procedure? If not, can I put everything back together and then lower the top the rest of the way? When I check the bow latch/switch, what in particular should I pay attention to? I assume look for fluid, which I doubt I find. Look for bent switch? You mentioned that your fabric was too tight, how do I determine if that is an issue?
That's all that comes to mind for now, I will be sure to ask if unsure on anything else.

As always, thank you for all your help in this project.

Jeff

Floobydust

Once you have it open, I would reconnect the controller and try to lower the top normally. The ability to do that will be a function of just what the underlying fault is. At the very least, you will be able to manually push the top back into the stop storage compartment and push the tonneau down. You should also see if it will raise normally (of course, don't let the rear bow latch lock again).

After you have removed the cover panel for the bow latch (and all those nuts), check for fluid leakage from the cylinder. Then carefully remove the latch/cylinder as a unit by disconnecting the two hydraulic lines, disconnecting the microswitch, and removing the securing nuts. Once it is out you should be able to move the latch back and forth manually. Borrow an ohm meter and verify that the microswitch electrically opens and closes as the latch is opened and closed.

You should also inspect the top open/up microswitches located on the left side of the top frame near the major pivot hinge.

Good luck.

jeffjensen121

FD-The top is OPEN!!!

Thank you so much for that tutorial. That was 10 minutes tops. I now have the top open with everything locked down. I tried in steps putting it down. With the controller reattached after popping bow, I got noting but a chime and a flashing switch. Same results after popping tonneau. I'm going to take it for a drive first just to enjoy before trying to put top up. I will post a bit later, but in the mean time, I bow to your wisdom.... Thank you sooo much.

Floobydust

Jeff -

Excellent - I'm glad it worked! I'll tell you, there's absolutely nothing like that first top-down ride in a Cabriolet. Savor it like a good wine!

Going forward, given the success with this procedure, and from everything you have observed and posted, I am virtually certain that the issue is a microswitch(s) and/or the connection to the microswitch(es). Check them out carefully as I still think one might have been damaged or misaligned with the top replacement.

BTW, white w/ tan is my favorite color combination - tied with black/tan.

Welcome to the Cabriolet Club,

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD-

I took the car for a spin. What a joy! Too bad a glass of Bordeaux lasts longer than the trip I had yesterday(The weather went south on me). I tried raising the top with no luck. Chime and flashing switch and the bow latch wouldn't unlock, but the deck moved. I repeated step #8 to open everything up and close the top. So first check will be inspection of bow latch/cylinder, and on from there, weather permitting, lol.
So happy I can use this procedure to at least open the top when I have a sunny day!
Thanks for the compliment on the color.

Keep you posted

Jeff

Floobydust

Jeff -

The Bordeaux goes down pretty quickly around our house. I have attached a picture of the top fold switch that is located on the left side of the top frame down near the main pivot hinge. After the "bow locked" switch, I would bet you a bottle of Bordeaux that this is the root of your problem. It is in a location where it is easy for a top gorilla to damage while trying to stretch that new canvas onto the frame. Failure/damage to this switch can cause the top motion to stop in its tracks. Test it electrically/mechanically first because it is a wicked expensive part.

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD-

Funny you mentioned this switch. I fiddled with it when I had the top down. Mechanically it seems to work just fine. The reason I fiddled with it was I was wondering what it was for. It didn't seem to have contact with anything nearby. I assume from your picture that the curved white portion should touch that pivot hinge? Once it stops raining, I'll drop the top and take a pic myself to show you.
We are getting closer.....
Jeff

I should add I thought the problem might be in this area as it gave me the opportunity to adjust the seat belt retractor which was put back improperly

jeffjensen121

FD-

Just thought I'd send you a bit of an update. We finally have some sunny weather here so I played with the top again. I haven't disassembled anything, but thought this provides a good clue.. with the bow unlatched, and pulling back on the switch, the bow raises. The tonneau tries to raise, but I think without the gas lift supports, it doesn't have enough power. Should I focus on the bow latch?
Also, thanks for the guidance on the radio. I found one like yours on ebay and installed it in minutes.
One question: Is it possible to rewire parts of the harness to allow the door speakers and cd changer to work?

Thanks,

Jeff

Floobydust

Jeff -

Thanks for the update. Convertible weather finally arrived here too!

When you refer to the gas struts, where are these located? The only gas lifting struts that I know of are the two that hold the trunk lid open. As far as I know the hard tonneau is raised/lowed only by two hydraulic cylinders.

When you say that the hard tonneau tries to lift - how far does it move? Does it lift high enough to see that the center latch has opened and let go of the locking tab? The hard tonneau latch is located in the front center of the top storage compartment, just behind the rear seats. If the tonneau only moves a bit after the rear bow lifts, the center latch is probably not releasing. This could be a microswitch issue or an issue with the cylinder/latch itself. If the tonneau goes up all the way using the "manual" method I gave you or if it opens far enough to see the latch is clearly open, but not all they way, using the top switch, this points to a microswitch issue. If it opens far enough to see the latch is clearly open, but not all they way using the manual method, there is insufficient hydraulic pressure, a bad cylinder(s), or the tonneau is binding somehow.

One microswitch I haven't mentioned is the roll bar down switch. If that switch is not closed, top operation will just stop in it's tracks. You should be able to test this by raising the roll bar all the way before you try to lower the top. The roll bar should then lower when you pull the top switch back and before any further movement of the top occurs (the windows will go down at the same time as the roll bar, but ignore them). If the roll bar goes down, but the pump stops as soon as it hits bottom or if the top starts to raise the rear bow, the roll bar down microswitch is working. If the pump continues to run, but nothing else happens. the switch is not closing to tell the controller the roll bar is down.

Let me know how it goes,

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD-

Thanks for the info. I will try all and give you answers later today. The gas lift supports for the tonneau are located between the fender panel and lifts for the trunk. They are black, hard to see, and parallel to the ground when the tonneau is closed. One end attaches to the curved part of the tonneau hinge and the end close to where the trunk lift is attached.

More to come,

Jeff

Floobydust

Jeff -

I checked the rear tonneau hinges and it turns out my car does have a tonneau gas assist strut, but only on the driver's side! And there is no provision to mount one, either on the tonneau hinge or on the car, on the passenger side. The only tonneau cylinder I've ever looked at up close is the passenger side cylinder (I checked it out when I was replacing the rear shocks) so I never knew the gas strut was there on the driver's side. It is interesting that your car has two.

I'll have to file that one away . . . .

- FD

jeffjensen121

FD-

How are you with transmissions? I lost reverse today.

Jeff

Floobydust

Jeff -

Bummer! I wish I could be helpful on the transmission, but that is one area where I have (fortunately) not had to dig too deep. Loss of reverse, from what I have picked up from the threads along the way, usually means removal of the trans for rebuild/replacement. It seems to be a common problem around ~200K.

I assume you have checked the transmission fluid level, but if not, you should - MB transmissions are very picky about the fluid level. You mentioned in an early post that your car was stored for four years, so you may want to consider a trans fluid/filter change as the hydraulic actuating pistons may be sticking from the sitting.

Other than that, I'm afraid the only advice I can offer is to search the forums for additional info.

- FD

vexed

Great find, you should add this to the thread at BW.org since we have all struggled with helping people trying to open the rear latch.

raynman1

I have never posted, but most of my google searches on my E320 problems, seem to take me to this forum.
I have gotten some real good information and answers from MBWorld for many years now.
So I would like to contribute.
One conundrum that appears to have alluded most DYI's, is how to access the "main" and "bow" convertible top hydraulic cylinders if the soft top stops operating, because the fluid has completely leaked out or in most cases, blown out one of those 2 cylinders.
There appears to be a lot of "No Known Way" to manually put top down, posted all over the web.
The best answer also appeared to be, to fill up the pump with hydraulic fluid, and then with someones help or a long board ready, activate the top down with the power actuator button, and catch the rear of the top before it re-latches. Of course this method makes quite the mess and wastes expensive ZH-M fluid.
Soooooooo......cut to the chase...what I discovered, is that you can access and remove the rear top locking latch striker, in order to manually lift the rear of the top.
The procedure is as follows...
Unlatch both the windshield locking levers, and push up to release top tension. (Same as when you lower the top with power)
Remove the (6) screws, holding the plastic interior trim along the bottom of the rear glass, and remove trim.
You can now see the top of the rear soft top latch striker.
Remove the tiny 7/32 (5.5mm) locking plate bolt.
Remove the two 10mm striker nuts.
Voila...
Manually raise the rear top, and hold in place, in the upright position with an appropriate length bungee cord.
Use the special 10mm wrench provided in tool kit (or equivalent wrench) to manually release tanneau cover latch, and hold in upright position with another appropriate length bungee cord.
You can now proceed to remove the rear interior trim to access the appropriate hydraulic cylinders.
I hope this may help future DIY's, and I have truly appreciated everyone's previous contributions in the past years.
Thanks
Ray

Kestas

Excellent post! I've heard there was a procedure, but no one posted it until now. Good information.