E-Klasse

I would rather get a 300c instead of any Lexus...

vraa

rjm: Is that the Modern Package?

Dad has the LS right now, otherwise I'd show you guys the Ultra Lux package.
Reason he is driving it? The Benz is in the shop.

vraa

Actually that's a whole different car. People buy Lexus' not because they want to be seen, it's because they want an automobile that is subtle and works. The LS430 does what it wants and needs to do absolutley beautifully.

Plus, the 300C is just a rehased W210.

zam2000

I think the 300C SRT is the best car for the money out there: awesome look, quality, and performance.

Saying the SRT is just a rebased W210 is like saying an E55 is a rebased E320, or BMW M5 copy of BMW 530, way understatement.

Btw, I don't see why going harsh on the LS, if I was him, I would dump the brand and look for a better one. I'm fortunate enough that none of my car require pocket rob often, but I've met quite a few other who spent so much time & money to to fix their damn Benzs. And since we don't like people on the Bimmer crow consider Benz as an old lady car, why are we making the same trash to Lexus LS owner ? It's a good car, outrun most Benz sedan, and in firm suspension setting, can outhandle most Benz too. Granted, I wouldn't buy it, but I don't see any problem w/ those who proudly owning it.

And look & feel is subjective. What consider as "soul" to one owner could be seen as "crap & harsh ride" to others.

CE750

rjm... don't put too much weight into JD Power.. They rate stuff like "cup holders" and "brake dust" as well as standard features vs options in those surveys. Looking at an MB strictly from a workmanship (materials, fit and finish) and safety standpoint, it's the superior car... looking at it from a mechanical reliability standpoint, it may in fact lag where it should be. But like I said before, and the pictures and links I provided prove.. there is nothing safer on the road than an MB (W210/211 especially) and for me safety is the SINGLE biggest decider on what I drive and what my wife and kids ride in.

rjm

Quoted directly from the 2005 J.D. Power Vehicle Dependibility Study:
"J.D. Power and Associates have released their 2005 Vehicle Dependibility Study (VDS) and Lexus tops the list for the 11th straight year. Overall the entire automotive industry improved by 12%. The highest ranked vehicle was the Lexus LS430 which suffered from only 90 problems per 100 vehicles sold. The first vehicle in the history of the test to have less than one problem per unit sold."
Mercedes-Benz rated 28 out of 38 manufacturers with 283 problems per 100 vehicles.

I would invite you to go and examine the new Mercedes-Benz models in terms of "...workmanship (material, fit and finish)...", as I did, then go look at the Lexus. Compare the quality of the leather and the quality of the wood...look at the instrument cluster, and examine the funky armrest on the right side of the driver's seat, then sit in them and tell me which one is more comfortable and instinctive to operate. I drove the new E-350, E-350 ADI, and the E-500. Then I drove the Lexus. The choice was easy for me. If you read any of the major automotive journals (Car and Driver, Automotive, etc.) you will see I'm not alone in my opinion. I just won't drink the MB Kool-Aid anymore.
If Mercedes can regain the pinnacle of quality, reliability and workmanship that they were once famous for, I will be the first one in line to buy another one.

stemags

I have a buddy with a 2005 Lexus LS 430,parks it outside near his housing developement,and it was keyed from stem to stern.He brought it to a buddy of his and he buffed and buffed,,,,,too deep.He was absolutely sick and my other pal(03 E500) and me felt really bad for him.Then it hit me,,,,and I asked him,"just think how you would feel if it was a Benz".

vraa

Oh now! I don't mean that it's a rebadged W210. I said rehased.
It's one of those cars where it's like, been there done that. The SRT is another level though, that car I love!

CE750

I have and the MB felt more sold to me.. and I consider myself very, very picky. Also, look at the crash tests from progressive.com that I posted and see the way the MB responds to the 40mph frontal crash vs the Lexus.. it's clear from the visuals that the MB (even though the Lexus scored the same) showed a much more rigid pax cage. Remember, the MB is designed from the beginning to run at 140mph and get into survivable accidents at those speeds.. the Lexus, is designed for American and Japanese roads where 75 is fast.

JD's quality survey would rate a Bentley Azure below a Honda Civic.. does this mean the Bentley isn't well made? no.. it's too subjective, this is the problem. Is MB not building them like they used to? yes.. are they still building them better than their rice burning former Axis brethren.. I say yes, and so did my personal test/drive.

Lastly remember the LS430 is more of a comparison to the S430.. where as the ES300 is more of a E350 competitor.

Dema

Although LS has comparable price to E, it's generally different car. It's in class of S, so it should be compared to it. I think everyone will agree that S style very distinctive, and much more appealing than LS. If you do quality of materials comparision of both cars then you will find it equal with slight prefection toward to Benz. Finally you can buy 12 cylinders S, so Lexus simple doesn't offer any competition. Anyway, I'm highly interested in LS if it's reliable car and costs like E.

slk55lvr

While it seems we'd all agree that the Mercedes has more soul, if they don't do something <and soon!> about the reliability problem they've had over the past 5 years there will be a lot more posts like this. When I was shopping for a car, the sportier nature of the e430/500 vs the lexus won me over. One year later, and after 10 trips for various sensor and other failures, the argument over which was better becomes much harder to make.
If Lexus (and acura) ever find a way to make their cars fun to drive, there would be a stampede of former Mercedes and Audi owners. I'm betting that they (Mercedes) will, but I refuse to be an apologist for them until they do....

lexstra

Eclass - 33
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safe...?id1=4&id2=130
GS - 35
http://www.euroncap.com/content/safe...?id1=4&id2=216

To say Toyota doesn't build a safe car just isn't true

CE750

3 years (model year difference in your comparison) is an eternaty in technological developments for safety today. For example look at the new BMW 3 series score or even this little MB A class..

http://www.euroncap.com/content/safe...?id1=6&id2=223

The GS is a 2005 and the E is a 2003.. I imagine the up coming W221 will be even more impressive, with the pre-safe items factored in.

and it's not that a toyota isn't safe, it's just no as safe.. there are a lot of items that aren't tested in these safety tests that play into safety. For example no one does a 80mph test.. that would have a totally different outcome.

rjm

I've had my Lexus LS430 for a week now and find it every bit as fun to drive as the Mercedes E-430 was. It does 0-60 MPH in 5.9 seconds, has 3 modes of transmission settings (Normal, Sport, and Snow)...the Sport Mode really rocks! You can also shift manually if you choose, as you could on the Mercedes. The car has all the "soul" the Mercedes ever had and handles every bit as well. As far as comfort and drivability, the Lexus wins hands down. The seats are MUCH more comfortable, have much more versatile settings and you can adjust them to your preference much easier and efficently. The stereo is far superior, the air-conditioner is much better (I live in Texas and it has been HOT), and the instrument cluster and panel controls are far more instinctive. I was a commercial airline pilot for the past 30 years, and this car is as comfortable as any ****pit I have sat in. As any preference is very subjective, yours may be different than mine. I just could not get used to the rock hard leather seats in the Mercedes, particularly on long trips. I am not trying to convert anyone...you just owe it to yourself to go for a test drive....then decide which car you like the best. By the way, so far I have ZERO defects or problems with this car.

vraa

Where in Texas do you live?
I'm in Sugar Land!

rjm

Colleyville....near DFW airport. Between Dallas and Fort Worth.

vraa

Oh nevermind too far!

CE750

I am furloughed from American (fly contract now).. and make more money in real estate to probably go back .. those days of 30 long years at a major airline are long gone I'm afraid, you are lucky... anyway.. Jimbo1mcm is also a 30 yr guy here on the forums and he love his E320 CDI, so much so, that he got two!.. we pilots aren't all in agreement on this one... I would liken your switch to Lexus, like leaving a B-777 and going to an A330.. sure it's "makes sense on paper" but what do the pilots want to fly?

One place where the Lexus beats the MB hands down is "Bang for the buck" and this is where MB needs to wake up. I can't be spending $56K on a car with Vinyl seats in the back again (once bitten, twice shy) ... my next MB (by then - 5 years or so, and probably priced in the mid 60's) better have standard full leather, and other basics.. like NAV and CD changer, heated seats, .. etc.. This stuff doesn't cost much (to the manufacturer) and should be built into the base price of a lux car.. even if they need to add a couple of grand to cover their costs. It's disgraceful what a Toyota, Honda or Nissan for $50K comes with vs a MB.

rjm

You couldn't get me into an Airbus...the tails on those things are made out of cardboard, aren't they? I retired off of the B-757/B-767. I flew them for 10 years...when the B-767-400's came out they had these wonderful plush leather seats in them that were the most comfortable seats I have ever sat in. The E430 leather seats remind me of those. Your point about getting much more bang for the buck with the Lexus is well taken. I spent a lot of time driving and comparing the new models before I made my decision. I think about the only thing MB has going for it anymore is the "aura," and that, like the 3-pointed star, has become rather tarnished in the past 4-5 years.

CE750

fair enough.. I think it would do us all good, and you.. if you took the time to email MB on their website what you did, and why you did it, focusing especially on the value aspect, as clearly the LS430 and E500 are not far apart in many other areas, and this would validate your email more. Enjoy the saki!

Brian McL

I have driven NOTHING but MB since my first NEW 300D in '82. Since then I have owned 7...yup...7 of them...so I think I am in a position to comment on the "changes". I, too, am a commercial pilot and I felt the same about my Mercedes as I did the A/C I flew....something I could trust...built to a standard of reliability envied around the world. My present car is a W210 E320 and it is by far the worst MB I have owned...BY FAR !!...and I would say it doesn't even compare well to Buick or Cadillac. The problems are not just in one area..like a bad engine..the whole car from body panels that rust for no good reason to mechanical failures that simply shouldn't happen over and over again and again. I have seen the decline in quality, reliability and service starting in the mid 90's with the W124 and that vehicle started out in '86 to be their best car ever, in my opinion. That is when I should have made the change! Wiring harnesses on the 104 engine that literally fall apart in your hands and a MB service policy of accepting no responsibility and in fact ignoring the problem. This company has changed so much for the worst....that clearly there was a boardroom decision made to increase profits by reducing quality. Say what you like in defence of the MB but it is not the same car or the same company it used to be. And that comes from an owner who doesn't rely on MB for an income. Wake up and smell the coffee folks.....the car has become an overpriced import that no longer deserves the reputation associated with the 3 pointed star. It makes me sick when I hear horror stories from people who finally went all out and a bought a Benz for their retirement thinking it would be a reliable and enjoyable experience, worth the cost, only to have become a nightmare. The marketing VP's at MB know these people are out there, the retiring baby boomers, and they see them as a rich source of revenue, knowing that they will only ever purchase one car, so who cares if the quality isn't there. There was a time when 2 MB owners would get together and discuss, with pride, the pleasures of owning a Mercedes....now it seems we compare "issues"....and oddly enough they are generally the same issues.....so I didn't get a lemon...I got one of the NEW breed of Mercedes...a Chrysler.
Oh...my next car...a Lexus. I presently have 2 MB's in the driveway and both will be replaced in the fall....thank God.

CE750

again, I think a well worded letter to MBUSA, DC and anyone else you can send one to over there would be of great service.

it's quite obvious that this type of discussion wasn't happening in the mid 80's when MB was selling 240D's for $30K and the Toyota Cressida was a $12K clunker made of plastic.. Fast forward 20 years... one company came up 100% and the other down..

Let's not throw the baby out with the bath water... my CDI (engine) is untouchable in the rice world... and Mercedes safety is still beyond reproach (lawyers wouldn't allow it to be otherwise). But simple stuff like the quality of the carpet the car comes with now are obvious sighs of quality cutting.. Ever compare that nice tight weave (combination synth and wool) that they used to use in their 450SEL to the carp they're putting into cars today? Sure, they're still made better than 90% of the cars out there, but there was a time when only Rolls could claim a nicer interior.. those days are gone now.. but they can still regain that quality, as they still have a good will and a good name.

rjm

I was browsing the W211 Forum a few minutes ago. This is a quote from a post from a guy who is experiencing transmission problems with his 2 year-old E-500 with 39,000 mi. on it. It is fairly indicative of the quality of the current product and the attitude of MB toward fixing a known problem. This is NOT an isolated post...if you browse the W211 Forums you will see scores of similar problems with the new series of MB's. I only hope the new CEO will address these problems and attack the quality problems head-on...otherwise, Mercedes-Benz will just become another Studebaker...if it hasn't already.

"Hello All - I got a call from the dealer for an update. Bad news, unfortunately they were aware of a design flaw in the radiator that will leak the radiator fluid into a perfectly good transmission and kill the thing. If MB was aware of this defect, why did they not do a recall? The are currently replacing my radiator, transmission, and torque converter that will cost them over $10,000 to complete the repairs. This is complete BS on a brand new car with $39k miles. After countless trips to the dealer for repairs, this one takes the cake. If anyone else encounters this problem, sorry, it won't be pretty."

lexstra

True, true

IMO, buy what you like. Lexus builds a more isolated car than many of their peers, but a few if not most like it that way.
If MB gets their reliability act together they might reclaim being #1 worldwide, but I don't see this happening due to poor managment.

btw I used to live in Sugar Land, parents still live in First Colony
Howdy

PHXATC

rjm - congrats on the new ride! I'm glad you like it. Cushy drive, I don't care what label is on the back.

By the way, all the planes look like little green blips, you mean they have seats?

PHX tower is the place is take up residence for most of the week.