russdog

This is crazy!

My new 2006 CDI will be at the dealership on Wednesday this week.... problem is, the dealership doesn't have a price yet! I can't pick it up! I'm hoping they will have a price by July 1st.

Can't wait to see it. Wonder if it will be any different than the 2005. Anyone know??

Thanks!

Russ

akbro93704

The '06 CDI has the new V6 turbodiesel as opposed to the '05's inline-6.

glojo

Where did you get that information from?

I am not doubting your knowledge, but this would be the first one I have heard of.

No doubt they might well be on our roads in 2006.

Regards,
John

BudC

http://germancarfans.zeroforum.com/zerothread?id=15630

CE750

I was told the V6 was due in '07, but if it is in '06, it wouldn't surprise me.

That said, the reason I finally went with an 05, rather than wait for the '06 a two or three weeks, was the price increase.. it was a sure bet.

Eitherway, enjoy it... it's a great ride!

CE750

Also, I read the Germancarfans thread, and I read in there a member stating the V6 is smoother than the I-6... while I agree the V6 is newer tech (not always a selling point for me).. it physically cannot be smoother... straight-six is inherently two things... more smooth and more torque for a given rpm/torque rating than a V6... the V6 came about to save space and money in car design... not because it's any better a concept. Sure the V6 has 20 more hp, but the torque is barely more.. the advantage of this new V6 will be higher compression and 30000PSI injection, which is where the additional power is coming from. But I for one (call me conservative) prefer the ideal of a tried and tested (millions of miles) I-6 to a V6... (yes, I know the V6 did 100,000 miles in 1 month)... not saying it's not reliable, just saying that I KNOW the I-6 is proven over a long period of time.

Be happy with you're '06 with I-6... Also, please share the build date with us when you get it.. I have a 03/05 which I imagine is among the last of the '05 models, and probably identical to the '06...

also let me know if you're in a 5-spd or 7?

Thanks

BudC

The V6 will have the 7G transmission and staged turbos which should eliminate or reduce turbo lag.

Using a balance shaft can smooth out the V6 although I still detest the course sound of the V6 in my E320.

BMW are sticking with the straight six but it's going to be an expensive decision. It only barely fits in the E90 3-Series so they can't increase the bore. They've had to do some amazing engineering with the new engine to keep the weight down and are going to have to add turbos next year to get more horsepower.

I don't think the advantage of a straight six in a diesel is as apparent as in a gasoline engine. Diesels don't rev very high so you don't get that thrill you get when you run a BMW six to the red line.

One thing I'm not excited about with the new V6 diesels is those particulate filters. It's just more complexity. Of course the current CDi is far more complex than the good old diesels of the past with their mechanical injection pumps.

glojo

We already have these on the in-line engine, but I think the reason they are not appearing in the US has more to do with your 'fuel'. I agree with all those that state it is more to do with space saving rather than anything else. The new 320CDI V6 will only be a 3ltr engine, but it will fit into the new M-class and also the C.

I have seen advertising for the C-class 320CDI, but nothing yet for the E-class. Plenty of magazine articles, but no release dates by Mercedes-Benz.

Has anyone been more fortunate? No RHD E-class 420CDI either (yet)

John

CE750

Staged turbos is good, my Volvo T-6 has this, and it works.. that said, the variable geometry turbo the current CDI also does a fine job with lag, though not as much, and probably costs more to produce.

When we got my mom her E350 with in a week of my CDI, I drove it probably solid for a week and couldn't for the life of me tell the difference in the 7 speeds performance. Frankly it was quite amazing in that you didn't detect the shifting points, but otherwise the zippy(ness) of the car wasn't all that great... for being 268hp, I didn't feel like it was a rocket, exceot that 1st gear starts were a bit abrupt and took some getting used to. However it certainly didn't have the passing power of the CDI on the freeway.

I predict the V6 7spd combo will be impressive, but again, I can't quite give one solid good reason, but I prefer I-6. This is also why I bought my XC90 with the staged turbos I-6 over the V8.. there is a certain smoothness and audible difference in an inline that you just don't seem to get in a V.

Finally as we've all said, the V6 will allow them to shoehorn it into a M class or C class and sell a lot more diesels in the US, which is a part of their big plan.

BTW... my dealer told me that the current CDI has a type of particulate filter now... anyone know anything about it? After all the car is smokeless, so clearly they are doing something with the excess carbon.

BudC

The current CDi's have a particulate filter as an option in Europe. With our dirty diesel fuel in the U.S. it would be contaminated/clogged/screwed up.

Our fuel has 500ppm of sulfur. I think it's about 5ppm in northern Europe.

The goal is to get 15ppm in the U.S. in late 2006.

CE750

So the filter will grab what exactly, if the fuel is already going to be rid of sulfur?
The emissions from the current CDI seem to be free of any visible particles, lower in CO than gas cars, so what are they hoping to catch with these filters?

BudC

It's not the sulfur, it's the particulates that the filters trap. The particulates from the current CDi w/o the filters exceed the standards for five states. The sulfur contaminates these filters. In fact, there are even low sulfur engine oils that should be used in concert with the filters.

If low sulfur fuel was available when the CDi was first imported, it would have had particulate filters which would have made it legal in all 50 states.

If Detroit had any interest in diesels then Washington would have had some interest and mandated better fuels a long time ago.

If the U.S. had the same percentage of diesels for cars and light commmercial vehicles as northern Europe then there would be a huge reduction in the consumption of oil in the U.S. I've forgotten the numbers but they were staggering.

CE750

I read in a paper that GW Bush is trying to get breaks for Diesel and other alternative cars on a federal level, siting that if 10% of the US market went to diesel we would save something like 350,000 (from memory) barrels of oil a day... Just think.

BudC

"Historically, agencies concerned about the environment have not been big fans of diesel, but the new technology that's emerged in the last few years has actually made us big supporters," said Jeffrey R. Holmstead, Environmental Protection Agency assistant administrator in charge of programs to control air pollution. EPA projections show that if diesels accounted for a third of all vehicle-miles traveled in the country by 2020, the nation could save a million barrels of fuel a day and consumers could save more than $20 billion per year.

"The big problem is going to be consumer acceptance," said George Peterson, president of AutoPacific, an auto industry consulting firm in California. "The experience most Americans have had with diesel passenger cars is negative."

That experience was shaped during the energy crisis of the late 1970s, he said, when General Motors Corp. slapped diesel engines into some of its cars and did not engineer them well. Today, surveys show that about 2 percent of consumers are interested in diesel products, Peterson said.

"Americans aren't going to go with diesel," said Art Spinella, who tracks auto consumer attitudes for CNW Market Research in Oregon. "Every time we do a survey of alternatives to gas engines, diesels come up at the bottom. It's got a bad reputation and GM is to blame. . . . Americans are very cautious about anything that burned them once before."

http://www.dieselforum.org/dtfinthen...st_022204.html

DavidNJ

Smoothness: an I6 doesn't have vibrations that a V6 has, gas or diesel. It is smoother. The E320CDI is on a par or better than our last 530i.

Torque: I can't imagine why an I6 would have more torque than a V6. Additionally, I would imagine that improvements in the head, intake, turbo, IC, electronics, injection, and tuning more than compensate in terms of power and torque.

Technology: Lots of updates, including a significantly new VNG turbo and the injection. I would expect the head and electronics also represent a signfiicant upgrade.

Transmission: Say you are crusing at 1700rpm or whatever at 80. And you nail it. The first response is in the engine, the second is the transmission. It downshift to raise the revs to the peak of the power band. More gears allow you to stay closer to the peak. While it has more impact on highly tuned gas engines where power curve climbs right to the redline, it also has an impact on the diesels. Even on an E320CDI, the difference is probably equivalent to 3-7hp. On an E320 gas it may be closer to 10-15hp.

For me, the diesel is the ideal luxury passenger sedan engine. I still can't believe how good it is.

glojo

Good morning David,
I understand what you are saying and from my lay person's position, certainly agree with it, but!!!

Why can't this modern 'fly by wire' technology recognize that when you floor the throttle, the computer says 'right lets change down and THEN accelerate!' Our SBC recognizes an emergency application of the footbrake and the brake system activates more rigorously, so surely it must not be too difficult to work the throttle gear linkage.

On my Sprinter I have the latest Mercedes-Benz 'Sprint Shift' gearbox. This is advertised as a clutchless manual, but by crikey it is far, far more than that. To all intents and purposes it is an automatic, but with a manual six speed gearbox. If you listen very, very hard you can 'hear' the vehicle going from first into nuetral and then into second gear. The engine revs automatically adjust to keep the ride smooth and likewise when you brake, the engine will change down, matching the engine revs to the right gear it selects all within a split second, far smoother than any driver could ever consistantly manage. Incidentally this technology is now available on most big trucks. It is 'fly by wire' and is 'silky smooth'.

Just a thought,

Finally I am so impressed with how opinion is slowly changing on this forum with regard to low sulphur diesel. Hopefully, one day we will see only low sulphur fuel sold World-wide. 5ppm is readily available, ours is scented to remove the diesel type odour and it is sold at ALL garage forecourts.

One day!!!!

John

A beautiful cool, sunny morning in Torquay

CE750

An engine's torque (power) is ultimately a function of many factors, not the least of which is displacement, bore & stroke, compression, etc.. but my point (which I didn't make so clearly) is the efficiency of an I-6 is such that with all else being equal it's more powerful.. that said, they are using technology to get more power out of less displacement with the new V6, sure, but does that make it a better engine? I for one was never a believer V6, and have never purchased a V6 for myself. We did just buy a E350 for my mother, but she's not an aggressive driver and not very picky about the engineering of what's in her car. That said, I would sooner buy a Gas powered BMW I6 than a MB V6.. Just prefer them. For 8's, I can accept that V is the only was since there simply isn't room in todays cars for an I8.

Sam

Spartan

There are pro's and cons to the V-6, however the BIGGEST thing against it is that it's not a proven long term design.

I am SERIOUSLY concerned with what happens with starting up and cooling down of the engine. Cast iron and aluminum have substantially different expansion and contraction rates and it's very likely that the stresses where these two materials meet can become very high. This will be compounded by the ENORMOUS stress that the diesel cycle creates relative to the gas engine. It may not show up in a year or two but it CAN show up in SEVERAL years. By which time Mercedes just shrugs it's shoulders and says "oops, buy another one".

How concerned am I about this? On Saturday I phoned my sales agent and he told me he thinks my new car IS the V-6. If that is the case, then I will change it and buy a 2005. I no longer trust that Mercedes is run, or at least influenced by engineers but rather by salesman.

Inherently, the I-6 is balanced where the V-6 needs counterbalancing to achieve this. The only advantage is that the V-6 can have a shorter and stiffer crank and that becomes an issue with the higher and higher torque they are getting out of the turbo's. Now, if they made the V-6 block out of cast iron AND properly balanced it then would have no problem, that is of course that the rest components followed in the footsteps of the old I-6.

Remember one thing, the ONLY reason for the V-6 existence is that can fit the smaller models and it can be manufactured along with the V-8 diesel. The ONLY reason they made the engine block out of aluminum is so that it will not weigh as much and can be fitted into smaller cars. It is not a good enough reason for those of us who buy the larger AND more expensive models.

At one time, one bought Mercedes and paid a premium for it's longevity and the expectation of uncompromised engineering. I am afraid that the new generation of managers are trying to make it the GM/Ford of the 21st century and taking it away from it's roots. In a world of increasing competition, relying and sullying the Mercedes name. Glitz, gee-whiz engineering and building compromised products will only serve to destroy Mercedes.

BudC

http://www.caranddriver.com/idealbb/...6&pageNo=1&num

DavidNJ

Unless I am mistaken, the only efficency advantage would be the elimination of the balance shaft, which requires torque to overcome its inertia.

Where the V-6, especially the odd angle V-6 loses is vibration. As a remember (vaguely) from dynamics is that mass distributed over 3 equally spaced vectors perpendicular to the axis of rotation (such as a three bladed propeller) are balanced at all positions. This works for 6s and 12s.

The V6 apparently has some secondary harmonics even in a 60 or 120 deg configuration.

In addition to strength advantages, the packaging advantage is bigger than just fitting in smaller cars. It allows better weight distribution, front AWD differentials (so now there is a 4Matic diesel), and more options for cooling and accessories.

An example of the opposite is the new M5, Fitting the engine in was so difficult that the underbody shape was focused on cooling. If you change anything you can cook the engine. Wouldn't they have been better with a V8? I wonder if a conversion to a Chevy LS7 would be an improvement (lighter, more powerful, broader power curve, better packaging and cooling).

glojo

Hi Spartan,
I very rarely go out on a limb, but this is it. Kep a note of this message so you can throw it back in my face I think your sales agent is talking from the wrong orifice!!! I think he is telling you a load of horse's whats it.

Don't you think Europeans would be taking delivery of the new V6 CDI IF it has actually been produced? I could be wrong, the US could be taking delivery of this model way before anyone else, but because of the problems with your diesel, I very much doubt it.

Regarding the reliability issue of this new engine. It is easy to be a pessimist, I know folks that breath a sigh of relief whenever they manage to safely cross the road. In Europe all Mercedes-Benz are sold with a 30 year warranty against breakdown. This is solely a breakdown\recovery service which covers us no matter where the car breaks down. Do you seriously believe this engine will go bang after two or three years.

Now my advice is CHILL OUT!!! Sit down, have a nice cool drink and dream about your nice new E-class. Deep breath......... In....... Out.......

Just think, if it is the new V6, you can really take the mickey out of me, now deep breath..... In........... Out........... (Only applies for the remainder of this year, whatever that is)

Please take this message with the humour that it is intended to contain.

Kind regards,
John
Sunny, hot Torquay

CE750

glojo is right, It will me an I6, they can't sell the V6 here till the new diesel is available. I didn't think about that.

Also, like I've said before, and I've confirmed this.. the difference in an '06 and and '05 many times is literally more a function of build date, than any kind of mechanical changes. My car was made in 03/05 and is designated an '05... I'll bet your '06 will be made with in a two months of mine, and the only difference will be price and resale.. both of which compensate for each other.

So enjoy the car.. it's awesome!

But you're right, MB isn't the MB of past... they're more Americanized in the way they build and sell cars these days, and that's not likely to change soon.. oh well.

Spartan

DavidJ,

As far as I know, the V-6 is based on 75 degree angle for ease of manufacturing. That compounds the secondary vibrations even MORE!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

John,

I have good cause to be concerned about what Mercedes is doing with "technology". My 2005 CDI was replaced and if you want to know why, look at the current massive brake recall and figure it out. Regardless of what happened, I am still a loyal Benz customer but I am no longer blind nor accept their answers as gospel. As an engineer, common sense tells me more then sales brochures, sales or service people.

As for my pending 2006, I have been given a bit of the run around as to exactly WHEN my car will arrive. On Monday, I will no longer accept any obtuse answers and I am going to demand a date. Amazingly, they knew when my 2005 would arrive within a day but it seems the 2006 is going through an information fog.

Further..........

I read the article from the link provided below my last post and it seems that the tester found that the engine had "reduced power" when the engine was cold. This confirms EXACTLY what I am concerned about, and that is that Mercedes is reducing the power availability on start-up to reduce the stresses and compensate for the thermal expansion rates of dissimilar material. Aluminum and steel bonded to each other do not make for good neighbors, particularly when they are subjected to fast thermal raises and drops.

I hope you are RIGHT and let's hope my salesperson is wrong and I am getting the I-6. If not, then I will take a remaining 2005. As for the future, they have 5 years to change their evil ways of "sell schnell, sell mehr, sell schneller".

Regards

glojo

Reading between the lines you have clearly had a problem. It is surprising that it has manifested itself on the very, very restricted cut down US version of SBC!!

Has this second recall actually happened?

We have had one member who allegedly had their 320CDI car bought back because of turbo lag problems??? That wasn't you was it?

Take care,
John

marcos

So now your allowed to call 'the stretched limo' a Sprinter eh