It' official, SBC is crap!!!!
12-03-2005, 12:45 PM
#26
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06 320E CDI, Porsche 911 C2, Pontiac Montana
Originally Posted by GearHead
Just a level set here ...
The SBC system works great and it does a great job braking a 2 ton piece of metal (our beloved W211) .... BUT when it fails, the 'so call' backup system DOES NOT work.
Mine failed 1 month after I had bought my car. The big guy upstairs was looking after my family and myself when the brakes failed. On that fateful day, I had actually visited FletcherJones in Newport Beach for warranty work and I normally would have taken the freeway to go home. But on that particular day, I decided to take a sight seeing drive since I had the family with me. Just left the dealership on Jamboree going towards the harbor area when suddenly my dash lit up like Christmas tree lights. Failure warnings everywhere and no matter how much stomping, the car will NOT slow down. I relied completely on my engine to slow down. Can't believe I still had the sense of mind to engage my gears during that harrowing experience.
To this day, my wife refused to drive my car alone because of this experience.
I hope you guys out there never have to experience what I went thru.
The SBC system works great and it does a great job braking a 2 ton piece of metal (our beloved W211) .... BUT when it fails, the 'so call' backup system DOES NOT work.
Mine failed 1 month after I had bought my car. The big guy upstairs was looking after my family and myself when the brakes failed. On that fateful day, I had actually visited FletcherJones in Newport Beach for warranty work and I normally would have taken the freeway to go home. But on that particular day, I decided to take a sight seeing drive since I had the family with me. Just left the dealership on Jamboree going towards the harbor area when suddenly my dash lit up like Christmas tree lights. Failure warnings everywhere and no matter how much stomping, the car will NOT slow down. I relied completely on my engine to slow down. Can't believe I still had the sense of mind to engage my gears during that harrowing experience.
To this day, my wife refused to drive my car alone because of this experience.
I hope you guys out there never have to experience what I went thru.
Well, actually I have.......and that's why they gave me another car. It's impossible to drive the same car AFTER you experience something like that.
Actually, I chose to replace it with EXACTLY the same car (even though they were giving me back my money) but if it happens again....f@ck Mercedes and their products.
12-03-2005, 12:56 PM
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06 320E CDI, Porsche 911 C2, Pontiac Montana
Originally Posted by CE750
Look folks.. it's REAL SIMPLE
SBC is a superior braking system, that costs a lot more than a old fashioned vacuum assist found on most other cars.. BUT The backup system sucks, and THAT should be what we/you all complain about.. SBC itself is IMHO nothing shore of a major selling point for the W211.
SBC is a superior braking system, that costs a lot more than a old fashioned vacuum assist found on most other cars.. BUT The backup system sucks, and THAT should be what we/you all complain about.. SBC itself is IMHO nothing shore of a major selling point for the W211.
Why, with all their technical know how, why didn't they think of a better back up system? What's so hard about designing a four wheel emergency brake system with independent electrical/hydraulic assist? A hundred dollar cost in a car that costs $50,000? How about a "no feature" double redundant sytem? Do you know the odds of a total failure particularly in a redundant system? Almost none.
12-03-2005, 12:57 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Here is a "neutral" artical about the sysytem and how it works and the various kinds of systems being developed...
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf110412.htm
http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/bf110412.htm
MARKET TRENDS
Despite the recent Mercedes-Benz brake recall, many experts still predict brake-by-wire systems will eventually become commonplace once the vehicle manufacturers work out the teething pains of the new technology. As experience and confidence grows, so will the application of brake-by-wire - at least that's what the brake-by-wire OEM suppliers hope.
According to a market forecast published by Tier One in 2001, brake-by-wire installations were predicted to jump from zero in 2002 to over 19% by 2010. The most likely applications were assumed to be luxury vehicles, performance cars and hybrid vehicles (combined with regenerative braking systems). Most experts now say it probably won't take off quite so fast, and the growth curve will depend on further cost reduction
Despite the recent Mercedes-Benz brake recall, many experts still predict brake-by-wire systems will eventually become commonplace once the vehicle manufacturers work out the teething pains of the new technology. As experience and confidence grows, so will the application of brake-by-wire - at least that's what the brake-by-wire OEM suppliers hope.
According to a market forecast published by Tier One in 2001, brake-by-wire installations were predicted to jump from zero in 2002 to over 19% by 2010. The most likely applications were assumed to be luxury vehicles, performance cars and hybrid vehicles (combined with regenerative braking systems). Most experts now say it probably won't take off quite so fast, and the growth curve will depend on further cost reduction
12-03-2005, 01:15 PM
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Some MBs & Bimmers
Originally Posted by CE750
Look folks.. it's REAL SIMPLE
SBC is a superior braking system, that costs a lot more than a old fashioned vacuum assist found on most other cars.. BUT The backup system sucks, and THAT should be what we/you all complain about.. SBC itself is IMHO nothing shore of a major selling point for the W211.
SBC is a superior braking system, that costs a lot more than a old fashioned vacuum assist found on most other cars.. BUT The backup system sucks, and THAT should be what we/you all complain about.. SBC itself is IMHO nothing shore of a major selling point for the W211.
Unfortunately, there is a BIG BUT. A braking system is a complete system which includes both primary and secondary (if there is one). I don't think anyone of us who have a SBC equipped W211s should be used as test objects for the reliability factor of this "new and improve" braking system.
Like I said before, I sincerely hope none of you have to go through what I went through especially the MB faithfuls. It really changes your perspective towards alot of things. (not to spawn another discussion point, sometimes I feel that this brake issue is very similar to the tire or the fuel tank issues that some of the detroit based mfg went through --- i.e. knowing there was a problem but ......)
12-03-2005, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Spartan
THAT I agree with. I'm a pretty big guy and probably in the 1% category of people with enough stregnth to slam the brakes. BUT I did not pay a pile of money to be an Mercedes test pilot with MY life on the line.
Why, with all their technical know how, why didn't they think of a better back up system? What's so hard about designing a four wheel emergency brake system with independent electrical/hydraulic assist? A hundred dollar cost in a car that costs $50,000? How about a "no feature" double redundant sytem? Do you know the odds of a total failure particularly in a redundant system? Almost none.
Why, with all their technical know how, why didn't they think of a better back up system? What's so hard about designing a four wheel emergency brake system with independent electrical/hydraulic assist? A hundred dollar cost in a car that costs $50,000? How about a "no feature" double redundant sytem? Do you know the odds of a total failure particularly in a redundant system? Almost none.
I'm sorry this brake system failure happened to you too. I'm glad you got out fine.
You hit the mark with your points on fail safe designs. I'm one of the 'pain in the a$$' engineers and I design systems for a living. If there is a requirement for redundancy, guess what, the system is designed to cover all foreseeable failure scenarios. It can be done but whether it is done has alot to do with the commitment.
In any case, I am still happy with my E500 but like a certain government law enforcement's motto --- trust but verify.
12-03-2005, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ruykava
...to me, perhaps it's a good idea to have it gone if only for the small proportion of defects which admittedly have occurred - and a brake failure is much more serious than accelerator failure, unless the backup is equally strong. btw gearhad: you think FJ might have had something to do with it? several failures have been due to botched service jobs.
...
...
The system exhibited it's famous groaning and high pitch whining. Mine was alot higher and in addition, the braking was erratic. Sometimes I had to stomp harder and while others, it was feather light and therefore a dealer visit (mind you, this is within the first month of ownership).
In the end, they had to replace the controller, hoses and some other items. FJ's technician made it worst by not installing and following complete procedures (according to the SA --- he was so apologetic)
The part that killed me was the arrogance with MBUSA and FJ service management. I called and wrote a letter to Montvale. Letter was ignored and my phone call was met with crappy customer service rep. One rep even said to me ..." sir, this is Mercedes Benz, USA headquarters. If you have a service issue, see your dealership "
As for FJ service management, gave me lip service on " our technicians are trained to the highest level and I am surprised this happened"
I have not gone back to FJ ever since.
Last edited by GearHead; 12-03-2005 at 02:06 PM.
12-03-2005, 03:03 PM
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06 320E CDI, Porsche 911 C2, Pontiac Montana
Originally Posted by GearHead
Hi Spartan
I'm sorry this brake system failure happened to you too. I'm glad you got out fine.
You hit the mark with your points on fail safe designs. I'm one of the 'pain in the a$$' engineers and I design systems for a living. If there is a requirement for redundancy, guess what, the system is designed to cover all foreseeable failure scenarios. It can be done but whether it is done has alot to do with the commitment.
In any case, I am still happy with my E500 but like a certain government law enforcement's motto --- trust but verify.
I'm sorry this brake system failure happened to you too. I'm glad you got out fine.
You hit the mark with your points on fail safe designs. I'm one of the 'pain in the a$$' engineers and I design systems for a living. If there is a requirement for redundancy, guess what, the system is designed to cover all foreseeable failure scenarios. It can be done but whether it is done has alot to do with the commitment.
In any case, I am still happy with my E500 but like a certain government law enforcement's motto --- trust but verify.
If it cost Mercedes $100 more for a million cars that'a definate $100 milion off the bottom line. Was it worth the saving? Is YOUR life worth an extra insurance?
Sadly, that was the question Mercedes faced and we know what the answer is. On the other hand, IF I had gone through the intersection with no brakes and killed three people, could you imagine the world wide headlines?
MERCEDES BRAKE FAILURE: CAR RAMS THROUGH INTERSECTION KILLING THREE PEOPLE.
Of course, Mercedes would spend millions trying to prove that I was a boozed up, drugged up homicidal maniac. THAT was one of the reason I was so angry but give Mercedes credit, they handled the situation VERY professionally.
On the other hand...it should of have NEVER happened.
12-03-2005, 03:04 PM
#33
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06 320E CDI, Porsche 911 C2, Pontiac Montana
Originally Posted by GearHead
My SBC failure was due to both the SBC system and FJ's technicians.
The system exhibited it's famous groaning and high pitch whining. Mine was alot higher and in addition, the braking was erratic. Sometimes I had to stomp harder and while others, it was feather light and therefore a dealer visit (mind you, this is within the first month of ownership).
In the end, they had to replace the controller, hoses and some other items. FJ's technician made it worst by not installing and following complete procedures (according to the SA --- he was so apologetic)
The part that killed me was the arrogance with MBUSA and FJ service management. I called and wrote a letter to Montvale. Letter was ignored and my phone call was met with crappy customer service rep. One rep even said to me ..." sir, this is Mercedes Benz, USA headquarters. If you have a service issue, see your dealership "
As for FJ service management, gave me lip service on " our technicians are trained to the highest level and I am surprised this happened"
I have not gone back to FJ ever since.
The system exhibited it's famous groaning and high pitch whining. Mine was alot higher and in addition, the braking was erratic. Sometimes I had to stomp harder and while others, it was feather light and therefore a dealer visit (mind you, this is within the first month of ownership).
In the end, they had to replace the controller, hoses and some other items. FJ's technician made it worst by not installing and following complete procedures (according to the SA --- he was so apologetic)
The part that killed me was the arrogance with MBUSA and FJ service management. I called and wrote a letter to Montvale. Letter was ignored and my phone call was met with crappy customer service rep. One rep even said to me ..." sir, this is Mercedes Benz, USA headquarters. If you have a service issue, see your dealership "
As for FJ service management, gave me lip service on " our technicians are trained to the highest level and I am surprised this happened"
I have not gone back to FJ ever since.
12-03-2005, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Spartan
Why didn't you ask for a new car?
After numerous contacts with MBUSA, they pawned it off that I need to address with the service department and it was FJ's responsibility to address defective service practice. FJ's service department (kept on giving lip service). In addition to the arrogance from both FJ and MBUSA, they will not even put into my service log the outcome of this fiasco --- and you definitely know the reasoning
I live over 50 miles from this dealership and this going back and forth was getting tiring for me.
Fortunately for me, after this incident, the car has been almost faultless ... with the occasional electrical blips (aka failures)
Last edited by GearHead; 12-03-2005 at 04:59 PM.
12-03-2005, 05:22 PM
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ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
Originally Posted by nantucketsleigh
Drove an E55 in 2003 and found brakes difficult to modulate. SBC on my 2006 seems vastly improved.
12-03-2005, 07:00 PM
#37
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Just to add my experience.......love the brakes, have had several emergency stops and the brakes were very quick and responsive. I have no problem in daily driving and find the brake response to be very smooth and I have no problem modulating them to a smooth stop.
12-03-2005, 09:09 PM
#38
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The brakes work....so what?
Many of you are defending the SBC system because it stops your car....big deal. Brakes have been reliably stopping cars for years without the added cost, noise, complexity, and wear factor of SBC. What has it done for you that is noticeable that a non SBC MB brake system wouldn't have done? I'm glad it's being discontinued, I was worried it would be multiplied to all MB platforms and I would have to look elsewhere for my next car.
12-03-2005, 09:22 PM
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Build date 2-04 E500
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Many of you are defending the SBC system because it stops your car....big deal.
Defending???? Well don't look here... I'm simply stating my personal experiences with my car.... As far as stopping the car???? yes, it does it and quite well. In fact in emergency situations it far superior than any other system available from any automaker.
12-03-2005, 10:38 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by Spartan
How about a "no feature" double redundant sytem? Do you know the odds of a total failure particularly in a redundant system? Almost none.
This is the solution to SBC, not getting rid of it.. but it doesn't fit into the MB Cost equation as of late!
12-03-2005, 10:43 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Many of you are defending the SBC system because it stops your car....big deal. Brakes have been reliably stopping cars for years without the added cost, noise, complexity, and wear factor of SBC. What has it done for you that is noticeable that a non SBC MB brake system wouldn't have done? I'm glad it's being discontinued, I was worried it would be multiplied to all MB platforms and I would have to look elsewhere for my next car.
I was told by the MB Dealer in Scottsdale that their brake failure rate on the SBC cars.. E, SL, etc.. is no better or worse than their vacuum cars.
So until you can find me a car with fail-safe brakes.. I'll keep SBC with its VAST improvements in asymmetric brake distribution and ESP integration, etc..
12-04-2005, 08:04 AM
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ML 320 CDI
Originally Posted by CE750
I was told by the MB Dealer in Scottsdale that their brake failure rate on the SBC cars.. E, SL, etc.. is no better or worse than their vacuum cars.
So until you can find me a car with fail-safe brakes.. I'll keep SBC with its VAST improvements in asymmetric brake distribution and ESP integration, etc..
So until you can find me a car with fail-safe brakes.. I'll keep SBC with its VAST improvements in asymmetric brake distribution and ESP integration, etc..
12-04-2005, 11:21 AM
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Its big and Grey!
The other day a deer jumped in front of the Benz, The brakes handled wonderfully. I hit them HARD and I still felt like I had total control of the car.
A+ in my book.
A+ in my book.
