Try riding in a lexus going 80 over bunny hills,now that was scary.

Did that in a new LS430 with the sport suspension and I was ready to **** in my pants. Needless to say I would have taken any other car in my stable over that POS lexus.

I just have a hatred for Lexus, its becuase they have subpar products when compared to the competition. just my opinion though.

There is so much to be said for a car engineered by people, and for people, who REGULARLY drive at speeds of 120-150mph.. these cars are not only intended for this type of driving, but are designed from their most basic parts for operations at those speeds day-in and day-out.. There is a LOT to say for this fact.

Honda has always made a better driver's car than Toyota. Toyota is always a Toyota, even though the badge might say otherwise. It will get you from point A to point B safely, but nothing more.

I agree with most of the comentary above. Tested both. Benz a better driving/riding car for high speed cruising. GS 430 seemed to have better electronics. Small point--GS has small gas tank, limited range.

That can be a big point depending on how far you regularly drive and where you live.....

Well, I did not imagine so many replies to my post but my sincere thanks for taking the time to post.

After reading all of your comments and also some on other forums I decided to wait until the facelift of the E-Class (hoping they put the new S screen on it) and the new GS460 (with larger engine) are available , I am not in the US and we usually get the models as they come out in Europe or Japan. They say February-March they might have details for the E and available by June-July. GS460 also for mid year.

I have been a Mercedes owner for many years, I honestly prefer the E or any other MB over anything, and I appreciate the feeling that I am secure on the road. I already have a W202, W203, W164 and W221.

My concern is only for service and trusting the service centers, of which Lexus has a great reputation and customer reviews. Current owners for 8-10 years tell me it is only oil and filters. Not one complaint and it is definitively something to take into account.


Will keep you posted with the developments. Thanks again.

"My concern is only for service and trusting the service centers, of which Lexus has a great reputation and customer reviews. Current owners for 8-10 years tell me it is only oil and filters. Not one complaint and it is definitively something to take into account."


No question this is important, and from what I've heard from lexus owners mostly true. The question is if this is the MOST important thing, and if so then you're choice is an easy one. I still say if Mercedes can make a car 80% as reliable as a lexus they'd never lose a customer, but let's see what these new Lexus's drive like.

As a Lexus owner for the past 14 years I will say that the car has been rock-solid reliable and the treatment I get from the dealer has been first rate.

As far as maintainance goes - it's pretty much been just fluids and belts. I changed the spark plugs @ 120K after paying too much at the 60K mark I just picked up a set of wobbly extensions and did the DIY thing.

I know this isn't the kind of stuff some of you care about but my dealer ( has the big TV, free lattes, pastries, bottled water - a loaner Lexus or a ride to your place of work as part of the normal routine.

To be fair - Phil Smart Mercedes took very good care of me while I had my W211 - not quite the same pampering as the Lexus dealer and most of the time I got a non-Mercedes loaner (Enterprise rental) but overall they were excellent. It was mainly the #$%^& electronics in the car that drove me nuts (as well as the infamous early SBC issues since mine was an early W211 made in '02)

The three pointed star cars carry more cachet and look far better IMO but if a low maintenance car + a good dealership experience are your paramount concerns then give the Lexus a look.

I for one love the look of the next LS - it finally has a style of it's own rather than being an S Class clone. I don't need or want a car that big but it looks sweet to me

I am absolutely spoiled by the cruising range of my CDI. My Carlsson tuning box has given me E500 acceleration (although for all intents and purposes, during NORMAL DRIVING my Carlsson CDI feels and is FASTER than the E500).

Back in my poor days I drove a 1986 Grand Marquis (college era). Nice car, awesome car for $1900. Ice cold air conditioning and the car was just bulletproof, no problems, nothing ever went wrong with it. Fuel injected 5.0. But it had like a 15-gallon tank and only about 12 or so useful before fuel lamp illuminated. What a hassle.

Anything less than a 600 mile range is not acceptable. I would like to see a CDI with a 50 gallon tank and the city pairs of a Citation Jet.

It must be more aggressive than my Renntech... do you have dyno numbers? I am getting probably just below E500 performance.

Renntech numbers: Stock Numbers:
1/4 mile: 15.00 15.3
0-60 6.4 sec 6.6
top speed 153 (predicted). 150

I agree on this, it's odd to think that on my 9000 mile CDI, I've only had to fill the tank up 14 times so far, for some 294 gallons, and an average of 30mpg with relatively aggressive driving manners.

Only thing close to here is a 1/8 mile track and its super redneck. Got more oil on it than a truckstop. Would probably spin or trigger ESP most of the way.

That's why I figure faster than E500 in NORMAL driving, as in not accessing RPM's above 4000 or so.

When driving INTENTIONALLY FAST I would suspect an E500 to be faster, especially when speeds get into the triple digits and the 500 grows legs.

Here are my comments about my previous LS430. Different car, but same functionality.

I owned a 2004 LS430 for a year and I traded it in on a 2005 E55. The Lexus was boring, the Beast is not. Well, duh! That was a given.

The Lexus was a good quality car, quiet, and comfortable. But, there were so many things that irritated me, it quickly lost its appeal and I began to hate the car.

I did not like having to touch "I Agree" on the nav screen every time I started the car. MB lawyers evidently think the owner is mature enough to read the caution statement and behave accordingly.

The default screen on the nav system was the map. I don't know about you, but I rarely use the map. The audio display is the one that I use. On the Lexus, if the audio screen is selected and then the park assist is activated, or the back up camera comes on, the screen returns to the map. You then have to change it back to the audio screen.

Lexus offers XM satellite radio. I think Sirius is much better and I would not go back to XM. Also, the satellite radio antenna on the Lexus is a large black plastic box that is stuck on the trunk lid by an employee at the dealership with the connecting wire wrapped around the trunk support arm. It looks like it belongs on a KIA. The new MB antenna is color matched and looks permanently installed and is far superior.

The park assist display is in the speedometer and the nav display. It is not in a line-of-sight position like the MB and is practically worthless. The back up camera was about useless in the daytime because the sun washed out the screen.

There were several features/functions that would not work while the car was in motion - the seat memory buttons, most telephone functions (you cannot dial a number or access the main phonebook), most of the nav functions (forget about locating a Bar BQ restaurant in the next town unless you pull over and park), the FM RDS info, and several driver selectable settings, such as the sensitivity of the smog sensor to automatically change the AC to recirculation.

The headlights were of no comparison to MB headlights. The low beams were zenons, but the high beams were halogen. What a difference with the MB bi-zenons. The Lexus low beams were white in color and the high beams were yellow. The high beams were nowhere near as bright as MB's. Also, the adaptive function did just about nothing. They did move left and right, and it was easy to see them move. The light pattern was not up to MB's standards. There were light and dark spots/lines that I could see on the road moving left and right as I turned the wheel. They did not light up anything that I could not see otherwise, but they did move so Lexus could advertise them as adaptive.

The adaptive cruise would not change speed settings in one mile increments like MB. Only 5 MPH changes were possible. Lexus gives you a choice among 3 preset distances for the distance to the car ahead. In MB, the distance is set with a thumb wheel and is infinite. The visual indicator in the MB is a bar graph that shows the distance with a measurable grid line with reference in feet. Lexus has no such capability. also, the distronic display in the MB will indicate the distance to the vehicle ahead even when the cruise control is turned off.

The buttons on the steering wheel were placed in a position that was in the way when I turned corners. I would hit the radio button and the channel would change about 10 times a day.

The rear window sun shade would lower itself when the transmission was place in reverse, as if I could not see out through it. I suppose some lawyer made that decision, rather than some engineer. Forget about side door shades, Lexus does not offer them.

I did not like the loud beep and light flashing when I opened the doors when they were locked. I also did not like turning an ignition switch to start the engine (even though it had keyless ignition). The MB button on the shift knob is soooo much better,

The outside mirrors tilted down in reverse. This was OK, but the position was not programmable, like the MB.

The turn signals did not flash 3 times like the MB when the lever is moved and released. (I am getting a bit picky here, but it was a difference that I missed every time I changed lanes.)

The voice control function was just about unusable. It would take 5 to 10 tries to get it right. However, this did not bother me too much, as it didn’t do anything very important. It was a lot easier to change the climate control a degree or 2, than to try to get the voice control to do it. It did not control the telephone’s phone book. That was a problem. The MB voice command works correctly every time and I don’t have to do anything, but move one lever, one time, to make a phone call.

There was not an available power trunk option like the on on my E55. It is very nice to be able to close it as well as open it with the touch of a button.

The performance of an S430 that I drove was superior to the LS430. I am sure the S500, and especially the new V8 will run circles around the Lexus.

That is all that I can think of off the top of my head. If you are considering a Lexus, think it through and try to spend some time in one before you decide. They are marketed well and seem nice at first, but the Japanese engineering quirks get old, and get old quick.

can drive 55 - Nice review and nice car. I too have now owned both of these vehicles. A few items I want to comment on.

The default Nav/audio/climate choice - easy to do with the options/info buttons - you can have it set to map or audio or climate all the time if you want. Default is to transition back to the map after like 15 seconds.

I agree on the satellite radio - there are many other LS owners that have rewired it to hide it in the center stop lamp housing - but a poor factory implementation.

The in-motion changes are a pain - again, there is a workaround but the lawyers won that one.

I miss the E-500's high beams but I think the LS's lows have much better coverage from the factory - I had monkey with my E500 lights to get any type of throw.

I must hold the steering wheel different from you - have not had that problem with the buttons.

My car has side window shades as standard - even a second one to cover the little quarter window on the door. Did you just have the base Premium package?

As for the beeping - maybe annoying but nothing like the damn Keyless Go beeping incessantly!! I think the Lexus locking/unlocking beeping is subdued and can be turned off if you like.

Outside mirrors tilting down? First thing I shut off before leaving the dealer. Never have seen a use for that. Easy to program.

I too miss the one-touch lane change function - that's gotta be easy to do.

Voice control I never use - I can press buttons about 10 times faster. Didn't have that on the E500 - MB had that COMMAND debacle on the early '03s.

Power trunk open/close - Agreed - Audi and MB got this one done right.

Performance?? If you just go by car mags the LS beats both the 430 and 500 in current forms. My LS seems to rev a bit "freer" now that it's got 15K on the clock. It scoots but you gotta nail that pedal. And turn off the Trac control. No comparison to what you drive now!! I love the E55.

And of course not to be missed - 16K on the LS and only an oil change - at 16K on the E500 3 unscheduled trips and one non-start that required a tow. I truly hope your '05 is better - it looks like a sweet ride!!

I'm already looking at the CLS - if the reliability is back I may jump.

Bruce

c_d_55:

Thanks for the detailed account of how small things, good or bad, can add up to a lot of owner (dis)satisfaction. It's also interesting to me because I've joined in the general opinion that Japanese cars have it all over Mercedes when it comes to user interface and electronic toys. Your comparison shows that it 'tain't necessarily so.

jdr - i'm not sure if you are really going to get objective information. It's like asking pros and cons of left wingers in a right wing convention.

With that said, drive both and decide for yourself. Contrary to popular belief however, most people often made up their minds before test driving the cars at this price range.

you should post the same question over at the lexus forums

Maybe he has/is. But that's a good suggestion.

I will state upfront that I am biased towards Mercedes-Benz; to me, there is nothing else like looking over the hood and seeing that Star. Of course, that Star isn't for everyone...

I love the history of Mercedes-Benz automobiles, which of course Lexus (Toyota) doesn't have. How many people covet older Mercedes and how many people covet older Lexus / Toyota's?

My pick is the E500.

Good point Richard.. I mean they could plant that star on the hood of a Chevy and I'd get a kick out of seeing it in front of my while driving

but to bonus is the engineering that comes with that Star... the safety, handling, and solid, yet comfortable ride! that is what make the MB super.. it's a fine combination of all of these.

Go for the M45 it will knock the socks off the E500 and the GS430 and its ergonomics/nav system is the best on the market. Infiniti makes very reliable cars save the US Made QX56 and are real drivers cars. The M35x is basically a skyline drivetrain in a family sedan. I would go the infiniti route.

Haha, dream on..................I don't blame you ...........

Personally I would go for a Mercedes but instead of the E500 will go for the E350 because of the following:

A): Lexus style (other than the IS line) seems to me to be better suited for old people.
B): Typically Lexus cars might be very quiet, very reliable but they don't have the Mercedes Benz feeling (stiffness, heaviness, sense of safety etc) at least the ES300 that I had a chance to drive.
C): In many countries in Europe taxis are Mercedes Diesels. Where I'm coming from in particular they tried Lexus's, Volvo's, Toyota's and none is as robust as Mercedes. After some heavy use mileage etc the doors start squeaking, the interior leather etc starts deteriorating they feel like crab. Some Mercedes models might have some minor faulty parts that annnoy people and compromise the reliability ratings but in General the build quality is superior to the Japanese ones.

Regarding Infiniti's, my first car in the US was an Infiniti M30 with 10-12 years old with ~160k miles and it was a piece of crab! I had to take it to the shop almost every single month, they might be good as new but as they get old they deteriorate a lot more than MB's. I've driven Mercedes cars with such miles and they still drive like a Mercedes, you feel them as being a heavy stiff car that sticks on the road and stops very well.

Regarding the E350 I mentioned, I had a chance to drive with my cousin the E500, the E350 and other MB models in an event in Ft. Lauderdale. They had a miniature autocross type of track where we drove the cars. Unless the E500 was abused (very normal for those events) the power of the E350 felt very close to the E500, handling on cornering, engine, brakes etc felt better on the E350.

The E350 does indeed drive quite close to the E500, but the E500 adds airmatic DC, standard leather (full), 17" wheels with 4-piston brakes, and other niceties... The price of the E500 (for what ever reason) is much easier to bend.. I came very close to getting myself one, but decided on the CDI for other reasons.. I also got my mom an E350 instead of the E500 as she is not interested in the niceties, and wanted the better fuel milage.

The thing you say about interior build quality is SO true.. look at a 10 year old Lexus vs a 10 year old MB and study the wear and tare of the interior materials,... do the same with Infiniti, etc.. the Germans are far more into workmanship than the Japanese (auto makers).. and this is clear in the build quality of these specific cars. Sadly, MB is a shadow if it's past in terms of this type of quality.. there was a time when MB interiors were head and shoulders above the rest (production cars), and today it's more accurate to say, that MB leads, but ever so slightly over Audi, and some other very high end cars.. but nevertheless, it's a leader still.

I agree that wear and tear is a big deal and that Japanese cars "wear" quicker than Mercedes'. Most people on this board would not keep their car past the warranty/lease period anyway so by the time it has wear that might become an annoyance, it will be long gone.


The fact of the matter is that many diesel owners would not have purchased the gas E-class counterpart. Personally speaking the Diesel E-Class is in a class by itself no car has ever existed (in the US market) with such qualites gas mileage, power, (duarability?). Most diesel owners keep their cars much longer than gas owners, hence the higher resale value.

I have driven the M45 and must say if I was in the market for a gas car it is much better in terms of driving dynamics, quality, and lack of potential problems (i.e sensotronic, electrical gremlins, shortcuts in engineering).

Mercedes does have the panache, but most people that go for the panache really dont care about current engineering, build quality etc.....
This was amplified by the C-Class I saw today that had CLK320 badges on it..


Wasnt the M30 one of the first products released by Infiniti along with the Q45? Did you have motor problems.. because if I remember correctly that motor was rated at the time as one of the 10 best engines (it was shared with the 300zx which is rock solid).....