2007 E class has Sensotronic brakes removed
03-07-2006, 06:04 PM
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2004 E500 / 2001 C240
Originally Posted by glojo
You might not have any taste in vehicles or know how to drive, but I like your sense of humour. Well said 
Oh and you got half your description right about BMW's... They are so ugly Regards,
John
03-07-2006, 07:12 PM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by shoes
I really liked the SBC brakes on my 2003 SL500, 2004 SL55, 2004 SL500, 2005 SL600, 2003 E55, 2005 E55 wagon and 2005 E320CDI and my 2005 CLS500. Everywhere I went, people could enjoy the sounds of my brake noises. My favorite was the little "squoink" noise it made as you begin to apply pressure to the brake pedal. Also, my passengers always enjoyed bobbing their heads in response to my inability to brake any of these cars smoothly.
I don't own an SL, E or CLS Mercedes because of these brakes. Instead I have to drive ugly BMW's that stop, steer and handle like well engineered cars should.
I don't own an SL, E or CLS Mercedes because of these brakes. Instead I have to drive ugly BMW's that stop, steer and handle like well engineered cars should.
I have one word.. TROLL.
Last edited by CE750; 03-07-2006 at 07:14 PM.
03-07-2006, 08:33 PM
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Build date 2-04 E500
I told myself I wasn't going to chime in on this one as I seem to be always seem to be debating with the NON owners and some owners too about this system.... But I'm going to stop in and say it again for the record.... I love my braking system, the brake feel, the power and firmness I feel with them, especially in a panic stop... I think most here know where I stand on this issue, so with this being said,
Goodbye, Good night and so long.....
Goodbye, Good night and so long.....
03-07-2006, 08:36 PM
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
Not a troll but a former owner. I had an '02 build MY 03 W211. The brake feel was awful. They stopped the car just fine - but the feel was terrible. The 4 or 5 times the SBS "VISIT WORKSHOP!" warning in the MFD was very annoying as well.
Put me in the camp identified as those who did not suffer a catastrophic failure but hated the "feel".
I am not an SCCA "deriver" but I am a two time WWSCC auto-x class champion so I think I do know a little bit about brakes that feel good.
A few cars with brakes that feel good:
Porsche 911 / 911 GT3 / Boxster etc... Honda S2000, Mazda Miata
Numb and difficult to modulate brakes = my former E class.
Put me in the camp identified as those who did not suffer a catastrophic failure but hated the "feel".
I am not an SCCA "deriver"
but I am a two time WWSCC auto-x class champion so I think I do know a little bit about brakes that feel good.A few cars with brakes that feel good:
Porsche 911 / 911 GT3 / Boxster etc... Honda S2000, Mazda Miata
Numb and difficult to modulate brakes = my former E class.
Last edited by lig; 03-07-2006 at 08:40 PM.
03-07-2006, 09:13 PM
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2011 E550, 2013 GLK
Originally Posted by lig
Not a troll but a former owner. I had an '02 build MY 03 W211. The brake feel was awful. They stopped the car just fine - but the feel was terrible. The 4 or 5 times the SBS "VISIT WORKSHOP!" warning in the MFD was very annoying as well.
Put me in the camp identified as those who did not suffer a catastrophic failure but hated the "feel".
Put me in the camp identified as those who did not suffer a catastrophic failure but hated the "feel".
I've been buying cars for a long time and I learned early on that you never want to buy the first model year nor maybe not even the second. I think by 2005, Mercedes had ironed out most of the early problems with the system.
Actually, you don't want to buy into brand new technology no matter how it's applied until it's had a chance to go through end-user testing.
We used to call it leading edge wind burn at IBM.
03-07-2006, 11:41 PM
#31
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'Chicken Little' .02...
Interesting that SBC detractors usually cite verifiable reports from users and readily available information when questioning SBC and the supporters cite personal feelings when defending it. No doubt there are happy SBC users and it's too bad it will be remembered as a failure more for the lack of a viable back up system when it fails than for it's performance when working. Other braking systems at the individual wheel level are in testing now that show more complete thought in the areas of reliability and backup so the concept is obviously valid and being pursued.
03-08-2006, 12:01 AM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Interesting that SBC detractors usually cite verifiable reports from users and readily available information
when questioning SBC and the supporters cite personal feelings when defending it.
No doubt there are happy SBC users and it's too bad it will be remembered as a failure more for the lack of a viable back up system when it fails than for it's performance when working. Other braking systems at the individual wheel level are in testing now that show more complete thought in the areas of reliability and backup so the concept is obviously valid and being pursued.
03-08-2006, 12:59 AM
#33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Interesting that SBC detractors usually cite verifiable reports from users and readily available information
"oh yeah? Such as.."
Verifiable reports = posts by people on this and other forums about failures and the consequences. No....you don't have to believe everything you read on the internet but why would they lie? Some of those posts are by people you share with on this specific forum. Readily available information = stopping distances that are no better, sometimes worse, than "standard brake" equipped cars. Have you seen any statistics that shows SBC is better or even equal? Please share. I once suggested someone do the math on failure percentages.....even one SBC failure after recalls were done far surpasses the percentage of failures of all the other cars combined....simple math, and maybe not fair (but true) because the ratio of failures is more than all 'other (conventional braked) cars combined' and it's only downhill from here.
Quote:
when questioning SBC and the supporters cite personal feelings when defending it.
"so those engineering studies and diagrams I posted upstairs are my "feelings" then? "
"Studies" is a good word. I admit that the theory should fly but there are no results to verify. Again, please share if you have information otherwise. "I know a conventional braking system would never have saved my butt like SBC did" is speculation...and you know it. If there were any real proof MB would advertise it. My butt has been saved multiple times with the "standard" MB brake system as well and I applaud it but that doesn't prove it performed better than another system.
Quote:
No doubt there are happy SBC users and it's too bad it will be remembered as a failure more for the lack of a viable back up system when it fails than for it's performance when working. Other braking systems at the individual wheel level are in testing now that show more complete thought in the areas of reliability and backup so the concept is obviously valid and being pursued.
"Now you are making "some" sense... it's not about what the small handful of members on this forum "think".. the fact remains that overf 1.2 million SBC cars are on the road, and I've yet to see a 20/20 segment on how dangerous SBC is... and don't kid yourself, if they were as bad as we're hearing here, their would be a major media frenzy about it."
I've already admitted I'm paranoid about SBC so we've been there. If you need blood and gore to prove a point then you're in denial that the people that have had failures were lucky not to be, or cause a statistic you obviously need for 'proof'.
Also, I've never said that SBC performs worse than conventional brakes when it works. My gripe is when it doesn't work and statistically I can prove it fails more than conventional systems.....disagree?
Originally Posted by mleskovar
Interesting that SBC detractors usually cite verifiable reports from users and readily available information
"oh yeah? Such as.."
Verifiable reports = posts by people on this and other forums about failures and the consequences. No....you don't have to believe everything you read on the internet but why would they lie? Some of those posts are by people you share with on this specific forum. Readily available information = stopping distances that are no better, sometimes worse, than "standard brake" equipped cars. Have you seen any statistics that shows SBC is better or even equal? Please share. I once suggested someone do the math on failure percentages.....even one SBC failure after recalls were done far surpasses the percentage of failures of all the other cars combined....simple math, and maybe not fair (but true) because the ratio of failures is more than all 'other (conventional braked) cars combined' and it's only downhill from here.
Quote:
when questioning SBC and the supporters cite personal feelings when defending it.
"so those engineering studies and diagrams I posted upstairs are my "feelings" then? "
"Studies" is a good word. I admit that the theory should fly but there are no results to verify. Again, please share if you have information otherwise. "I know a conventional braking system would never have saved my butt like SBC did" is speculation...and you know it. If there were any real proof MB would advertise it. My butt has been saved multiple times with the "standard" MB brake system as well and I applaud it but that doesn't prove it performed better than another system.
Quote:
No doubt there are happy SBC users and it's too bad it will be remembered as a failure more for the lack of a viable back up system when it fails than for it's performance when working. Other braking systems at the individual wheel level are in testing now that show more complete thought in the areas of reliability and backup so the concept is obviously valid and being pursued.
"Now you are making "some" sense... it's not about what the small handful of members on this forum "think".. the fact remains that overf 1.2 million SBC cars are on the road, and I've yet to see a 20/20 segment on how dangerous SBC is... and don't kid yourself, if they were as bad as we're hearing here, their would be a major media frenzy about it."
I've already admitted I'm paranoid about SBC so we've been there. If you need blood and gore to prove a point then you're in denial that the people that have had failures were lucky not to be, or cause a statistic you obviously need for 'proof'.
Also, I've never said that SBC performs worse than conventional brakes when it works. My gripe is when it doesn't work and statistically I can prove it fails more than conventional systems.....disagree?
Last edited by mleskovar; 03-08-2006 at 01:03 AM.
03-08-2006, 01:06 AM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by mleskovar
My gripe is when it doesn't work and statistically I can prove it fails more than conventional systems.....disagree?
03-08-2006, 01:19 AM
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
Originally Posted by BudC
I also hated the feel of the brakes on my 4/2004 E320 until I had them bled. Then they changed quite a bit for the better.
We used to call it leading edge wind burn at IBM.
We used to call it leading edge wind burn at IBM.
life on the bleeding edge!
03-08-2006, 01:29 AM
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Originally Posted by CE750
By all means, please show me this data? I'd like to see an audited source like DOT, or NHSTA.. Cause, everything I've heard from the 3 MB dealers I've had discussions with about SBC and brake failure said that it's not more common in SBC.. and that conventional brakes fail more often. I don't have hard data on it, just their words. But you claim hard data, so please share...
03-08-2006, 01:36 AM
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Very interesting discussion about SBC here. The truth of the matter is that this was a great innovation from Mercedes/Bosch, and very few real-world owners had an failures or problems with it. However with Mercedes repuation for quality taking a beating every since the first ML, they had no choice but to drop SBC. There are several reasons why.
Once people get it in their head that a system is trouble prone they'll harp about it forever and ever, even when they themselves have never experienced a problem with it.
A lot of people didn't like the on/off switch pedal feel of the SBC brakes. Ok that is a valid complaint for those who notice such things, but again people who don't normally even care or are able to "feel" what brakes feel like probably started to complain after they heard about others complaining about the brake pedal feel. Its human nature.
The only way to stifle all of this was to remove the system and go back to a conventional braking system.
In an earlier post someone said that the brake fluid resivour was removed. Wrong. SBC eliminated the mechanical connection between the brake pedal and the rest of the system. The rest of the system was conventional but instead of the driver deciding on the brake pressure, the computer did it for you based on how hard you pressed the pedal. Mercedes has tweaked this system profoundly since its inception and now you really can't tell the brakes are operated by electronics in cars like the CLS, or at least it isn't as noticeable as it was on early build cars. I hate to see it go too, but it must until Mercedes restores their quality rep.
People are so ignorant though sometimes. I've seen complaints about "SBC" brakes on the W220 S-Class and that car doesn't have the SBC!!!!!! This is why Mercedes is getting rid of, to put a permanent shuttup on those who live to complain about any and everything. Truth is only a handful of German taxicab drivers had any real problems with the SBC system to the point of having longer stopping distances. In the U.S. the complaints were about "feel" more than anything else.
M
Once people get it in their head that a system is trouble prone they'll harp about it forever and ever, even when they themselves have never experienced a problem with it.
A lot of people didn't like the on/off switch pedal feel of the SBC brakes. Ok that is a valid complaint for those who notice such things, but again people who don't normally even care or are able to "feel" what brakes feel like probably started to complain after they heard about others complaining about the brake pedal feel. Its human nature.
The only way to stifle all of this was to remove the system and go back to a conventional braking system.
In an earlier post someone said that the brake fluid resivour was removed. Wrong. SBC eliminated the mechanical connection between the brake pedal and the rest of the system. The rest of the system was conventional but instead of the driver deciding on the brake pressure, the computer did it for you based on how hard you pressed the pedal. Mercedes has tweaked this system profoundly since its inception and now you really can't tell the brakes are operated by electronics in cars like the CLS, or at least it isn't as noticeable as it was on early build cars. I hate to see it go too, but it must until Mercedes restores their quality rep.
People are so ignorant though sometimes. I've seen complaints about "SBC" brakes on the W220 S-Class and that car doesn't have the SBC!!!!!! This is why Mercedes is getting rid of, to put a permanent shuttup on those who live to complain about any and everything. Truth is only a handful of German taxicab drivers had any real problems with the SBC system to the point of having longer stopping distances. In the U.S. the complaints were about "feel" more than anything else.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 03-08-2006 at 01:40 AM.
03-08-2006, 01:49 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by Germancar1
, and very few real-world owners had an failures or problems with it. M
03-08-2006, 05:37 AM
#40
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Originally Posted by Germancar1
Very interesting discussion about SBC here. The truth of the matter is that this was a great innovation from Mercedes/Bosch, and very few real-world owners had an failures or problems with it. However with Mercedes repuation for quality taking a beating every since the first ML, they had no choice but to drop SBC. There are several reasons why.
You have wrote an excellent piece that I totally agree with. Unfortunately you are wasting your time as you can see those that knock it... talk and indeed write absolute drival.
In fairness though I must say that 'lig' is the exception.
His post is fair and if you do not like the 'feel' then get rid of the car. we all have different likes and dislikes, the one fit all premise will never work. American cars are not in general liked by Europeans... We don't buy them. Simple. I do not criticise them, slag them off say they are rubbish. I respect the right of the owner to drive in something they like.
To 'lig' I would merely say that Mercedes-Benz made a BIG mistake with the different warning messages that appear on the drivers display.
""The SBS "VISIT WORKSHOP!" warning in the MFD was very annoying as well.""
Totally agree. This message frit me!!!
Our car was stationary in our garage, refusing to start (flat battery) and it displayed this message. The technician simply replaced the battery and played with his Star Diagnostic equipment. The fault was subject to another of the many 'Upgrades' and was all about volt leakage from the battery. NOTHING whatsoever to do with SBC. So why have a big red flashing SBC warning. Talk about commercial suicide.
'mleskovar' Will not be interested in that though. The truth is never as dramatic as a good rumour still I suppose this is clearly ALL the fault of the 'dangerous' SBC.
Have you noticed how they ignore the question of what happens if you have a hydraulic failure on a conventional car? (I can think of quite a few what if scenario's) Or indeed all the other failures that have been listed. We will always go round in circles, the folks that think the World is flat will not change their opinions, we will simply waste our time, breath etc on folks that simply think they are being clever. SBC in the E-class is being replaced, full stop, end of story.
This brilliant system remains on our top model and that speaks far louder than any post made by either side. If it was in anyway flawed does anyone seriously believe it wouldbe allowed on our highways?? No doubt the 'knockers' are wracking their silly little minds trying to think of a good story to tell on this example???????
No offence to you personally 'mleskovar' just your opinion is at odds to my own.
John
03-08-2006, 08:58 AM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Originally Posted by mleskovar
No problem....it's right in front of you. How many people that have posted just on this 211 forum have had brake failure? How many people (giving you the edge...whether they admit to failure or not or even own an SBC equipped car) post on the 211 forum? What's the percentage? Guess. Now search the entire internet for brake failures on cars with under 50K miles (new, or close to new) for all "conventional, <old thinking>" brake systems and what do you find? A couple from Nissan trucks that lost the brake booster but didn't go into panic mode because of it. Of course it's not news....yet, and hopefully never now that MB has discontinued it. I have to admit though, I've spotted 379 SBC equipped cars in the last couple of months and none has put me in harms way though
naa.... sorry that's anecdotal data... this is but one forum, and for all we know (As with the who Notkts fiasco) every one of us could be a liar.. I'd sooner place faith in what all three dealers in Phoenix said than members of this forum.
I can only say this... After spending about 10 minutes looking thru Google on SBC Brake Failure, all I could come across is discussions about the recall and not ANY failures... we all know there have been a "few" failures, and none have lead to any fatalities as there IS A BACK UP system (albeit not a perfect one (which is where the real flaw of SBC is, and where MB should have spent the extra R&D money to perfect it).
03-08-2006, 12:22 PM
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Mercedes C400, BMW X3
I still cannot figure this out
I am still confused- is Mercedes really eliminating the SBC brakes from the 2007 models E, CLS and SL class cars or just changing the name to electrohydraulic to trick me into buying one again?
03-08-2006, 12:34 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by CE750
naa.... sorry that's anecdotal data... this is but one forum, and for all we know (As with the who Notkts fiasco) every one of us could be a liar.."
More denial. If it has to be published by the NTSB for you to be believe then let's hope it doesn't get that far because they become involved after the fact. Why would all the owners that reported 'panic' brake failure situations lie? Do you have an answer or is that your only defense? And yes, this is only a sampling but representative of a specific group of people.
"I'd sooner place faith in what all three dealers in Phoenix said than members of this forum"
LOL The MB 'dealers' are notorious for being close lipped about recurring failures....when you only believe what you want to hear the conclusion is forgone. I've been on the manufacturer's end of product failures and been threatened with my job if I let the truth out. Their job depends on you buying more cars and service from them. I had eight keys replaced over a period of two years and they never, never admitted there was a generic problem with them. The only way I found out how to tell a 'good' key was from this forum.
"there IS A BACK UP system (albeit not a perfect one (which is where the real flaw of SBC is, and where MB should have spent the extra R&D money to perfect it"
I agree, there would be no discussion if that were the case.
.
More denial. If it has to be published by the NTSB for you to be believe then let's hope it doesn't get that far because they become involved after the fact. Why would all the owners that reported 'panic' brake failure situations lie? Do you have an answer or is that your only defense? And yes, this is only a sampling but representative of a specific group of people.
"I'd sooner place faith in what all three dealers in Phoenix said than members of this forum"
LOL The MB 'dealers' are notorious for being close lipped about recurring failures....when you only believe what you want to hear the conclusion is forgone. I've been on the manufacturer's end of product failures and been threatened with my job if I let the truth out. Their job depends on you buying more cars and service from them. I had eight keys replaced over a period of two years and they never, never admitted there was a generic problem with them. The only way I found out how to tell a 'good' key was from this forum.
"there IS A BACK UP system (albeit not a perfect one (which is where the real flaw of SBC is, and where MB should have spent the extra R&D money to perfect it"
I agree, there would be no discussion if that were the case.
.
Last edited by mleskovar; 03-08-2006 at 12:40 PM.
03-08-2006, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by shoes
I am still confused- is Mercedes really eliminating the SBC brakes from the 2007 models E, CLS and SL class cars or just changing the name to electrohydraulic to trick me into buying one again?
All SBC did was replace vacuum boost with an electric pump and add control over individual wheels in concert with the anti-skid system in the car.
SBC as we know it is gone. They are eliminating the electric pump and reverting back to vacuum assisted braking.
The simpler system should have many of the advantages of the SBC system w/o it's complexity and the lack of a vacuum assisted backup. In other words, it's a win-win situation for potential buyers.
03-08-2006, 05:15 PM
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2007 E550 and 2007 335i
Where did you find a 2007 brochure???
I have both a newer and older 2006 E class brochure the older one mentions SBC a number of times. The newer 2006 brochure seems to leave out SBC ( I saw no mention of it) although it does talk about all the great safety features. Even though it is still installed on the 2006 E-class, the new brochure skips talk of it.
Did you really see a 2007 brochure?? I would love to find a 2007 brochure myself so I can begin the euro-delivery process.
thanks
stevec32
Did you really see a 2007 brochure?? I would love to find a 2007 brochure myself so I can begin the euro-delivery process.
thanks
stevec32
03-08-2006, 05:47 PM
#46
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Originally Posted by benzmodz
Tell me what it does that will be missed ? Sensotronic brake hold ?
It hardly serves a purpose if it causes problems.
It hardly serves a purpose if it causes problems.
As of today, I am still receiving recall notices on SBC. How many times does DCX needs to fix this is really beyond my comprehension.
03-09-2006, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by mleskovar
BS....more catastrophic failures than any other MB model you can find on the internet...Most "brake warning" lights on conventional systems are only warnings and the backup systems and layers of redundancy do a good job of stopping the car and don't cause the panic that an SBC failure does.
Please show the proof. I haven't seen anyone have an outright failure in which they couldn't stop their E, CLS, SL or even SLR because of an outright failure. SBC has a conventional backup system in case SBC totally fails. Now if you have an instance in which someone had a total failure I'd love to read about it. Like I originally stated, I haven't seen anyone that had outright failures and couldn't stop.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 03-09-2006 at 02:40 AM.
03-09-2006, 02:39 AM
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Originally Posted by glojo
Good morning Germancar1,
You have wrote an excellent piece that I totally agree with. Unfortunately you are wasting your time as you can see those that knock it... talk and indeed write absolute drival.
In fairness though I must say that 'lig' is the exception.
His post is fair and if you do not like the 'feel' then get rid of the car. we all have different likes and dislikes, the one fit all premise will never work. American cars are not in general liked by Europeans... We don't buy them. Simple. I do not criticise them, slag them off say they are rubbish. I respect the right of the owner to drive in something they like.
To 'lig' I would merely say that Mercedes-Benz made a BIG mistake with the different warning messages that appear on the drivers display.
""The SBS "VISIT WORKSHOP!" warning in the MFD was very annoying as well.""
Totally agree. This message frit me!!!
Our car was stationary in our garage, refusing to start (flat battery) and it displayed this message. The technician simply replaced the battery and played with his Star Diagnostic equipment. The fault was subject to another of the many 'Upgrades' and was all about volt leakage from the battery. NOTHING whatsoever to do with SBC. So why have a big red flashing SBC warning. Talk about commercial suicide.
'mleskovar' Will not be interested in that though. The truth is never as dramatic as a good rumour still I suppose this is clearly ALL the fault of the 'dangerous' SBC.
Have you noticed how they ignore the question of what happens if you have a hydraulic failure on a conventional car? (I can think of quite a few what if scenario's) Or indeed all the other failures that have been listed. We will always go round in circles, the folks that think the World is flat will not change their opinions, we will simply waste our time, breath etc on folks that simply think they are being clever. SBC in the E-class is being replaced, full stop, end of story.
This brilliant system remains on our top model and that speaks far louder than any post made by either side. If it was in anyway flawed does anyone seriously believe it wouldbe allowed on our highways?? No doubt the 'knockers' are wracking their silly little minds trying to think of a good story to tell on this example???????
No offence to you personally 'mleskovar' just your opinion is at odds to my own.
John
You have wrote an excellent piece that I totally agree with. Unfortunately you are wasting your time as you can see those that knock it... talk and indeed write absolute drival.
In fairness though I must say that 'lig' is the exception.
His post is fair and if you do not like the 'feel' then get rid of the car. we all have different likes and dislikes, the one fit all premise will never work. American cars are not in general liked by Europeans... We don't buy them. Simple. I do not criticise them, slag them off say they are rubbish. I respect the right of the owner to drive in something they like.
To 'lig' I would merely say that Mercedes-Benz made a BIG mistake with the different warning messages that appear on the drivers display.
""The SBS "VISIT WORKSHOP!" warning in the MFD was very annoying as well.""
Totally agree. This message frit me!!!
Our car was stationary in our garage, refusing to start (flat battery) and it displayed this message. The technician simply replaced the battery and played with his Star Diagnostic equipment. The fault was subject to another of the many 'Upgrades' and was all about volt leakage from the battery. NOTHING whatsoever to do with SBC. So why have a big red flashing SBC warning. Talk about commercial suicide.
'mleskovar' Will not be interested in that though. The truth is never as dramatic as a good rumour still I suppose this is clearly ALL the fault of the 'dangerous' SBC.
Have you noticed how they ignore the question of what happens if you have a hydraulic failure on a conventional car? (I can think of quite a few what if scenario's) Or indeed all the other failures that have been listed. We will always go round in circles, the folks that think the World is flat will not change their opinions, we will simply waste our time, breath etc on folks that simply think they are being clever. SBC in the E-class is being replaced, full stop, end of story.
This brilliant system remains on our top model and that speaks far louder than any post made by either side. If it was in anyway flawed does anyone seriously believe it wouldbe allowed on our highways?? No doubt the 'knockers' are wracking their silly little minds trying to think of a good story to tell on this example???????
No offence to you personally 'mleskovar' just your opinion is at odds to my own.
John
Seperately come to think of it, the whole SBC recall thing was nothing more than a software change and not a mechanical problem - I think not sure since it was a while ago. All I really remember is that handful of German taxicab drivers really had any problems with longish stopping distances. As lawsuit happy the U.S. consumer is I think Mercedes would be getting sued left and right if most of the 50K (per year) E-Class owners were having all these "catastropic" failures like say. If I'm wrong I'd like to see the proof from those who claim otherwise.
M
Last edited by Germancar1; 03-09-2006 at 02:45 AM.
03-09-2006, 09:45 AM
#49
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2014 ML350 4Matic
With all the hyperbole in this post and positions on both sides seemingly set in concrete, some basics are being ignored. The most important piece of the braking equation is the tire/road interface. Detail design that optimizes this interface should result in superior brake performance. More effort on suspension design that optimizes traction in all circumstances should have the side effect of improving braking. SBC cannot increase traction. It has the POTENTIAL to make maximum use of available traction. I think M-B didn't get the W211 suspension design perfect. This resulted in stopping distances 5-10 feet longer than the previous W210 in testing by Road & Track. Keep in mind that the W210 stopping distances measured the same as a Porsche Boxster S. So what was the real world benefit? Did SBC ever realize the POTENTIAL benefit? Maybe; maybe not. Plus it added weight and complexity, something an engineer like me will normally find abhorrent. I drive a lot of Porches and for me, I will take their braking system any day over the SBC equipped M-B. Nice, rock hard pedal, lots of feel (I can feel a tire run over a small stone), excellent modulation so I can use the brakes to balance the car - wonderful.
In the end, if M-B can improve the on road, real world grip, and thus improve cornering, transitional behavior AND braking of their cars without SBC, what is the problem?
In the end, if M-B can improve the on road, real world grip, and thus improve cornering, transitional behavior AND braking of their cars without SBC, what is the problem?
03-09-2006, 09:50 AM
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'05 E320 CDI, '08 BMW X5 4.8i, '11 Duramax 2500HD
Vince the W211 is a good bit heavier than the W210, which could easily account for the 10 feet... the fact is the 122 foot distance on the CDI (better I believe in the E350/E500) is DAMN GOOD.. and straight line distance isn't what SBC is about.... its about stopping during a turn, that is where it shines.
