mleskovar

I bet you cannot even find a complete hydraulic failure for a state-of-the-art 'conventional' hydraulic system under normal use with normal maintenance....but that doesn't mean they don't exist. They have two braking systems, sensors for impending failures (like fluid level), the boosters retain enough vacuum for several stops after engine failure (usually :-)) but even then you have brakes to all four wheels, all of the 'features'...BA, ABS, ESP, can fail and the primary system loses no functionality, and it's evolved over some 70 years and used by the cheapest to most expensive cars.

I'm no Luddite and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that 'improving' a braking system functionality but reducing it's fail safe ability is a step backwards. You're statement about worrying about what 'might' happen is prevalent here and shows lack of concept. Of course you plan for failure when a human is traveling at speed in a box because failures are inevitable. Why do you think they put a backup system in SBC to begin with? Duh.

mleskovar

It's obvious engineering is not your discipline Proportional braking has been used in cars for at least 45 years but not to the exact degree as SBC... my wife's '60 Triumph Spitfire had it going to the rear wheels. 'How' it's done is not important if safety is reduced, isn't safety the primary function of brakes? It will be interesting to see how MB added the SBC features to the 'conventional' system. My guess is they use the ABS pump for maintaining pressure and the backup would revert to the primary, fully functional system without proportional braking. ABS and ESP failures are very common on the C class but since stopping power is not diminished it is more of a nuisance than a perceived problem. SBC backup still needs to be fixed on 1.4M (?) cars....my solution would be to have a pressurized reservoir good for X number of cycles activated when the primary system fails. Armchair engineering is as easy as quarterbacking.

mleskovar

I'm curious about your references to 'anecdotal' as being untrustworthy or less than believable. History begins from the anecdotal.

glojo

I can honestly say without fear of contradiction...

I understand completely where your coming from.

The noisest objections definitely come from the non owners. On European sites where we have the full system there is lots of praise and very very few critics. (I am not aware of any, but obviously you will always have some that will moan)

I have joined you and put my fingers in my ears

John

CE750

But I also learned in "Debate 101" that you can't use anecdote to debate a point. Which is what you are doing when you use the few members of this forum with gripes about SBC to make a point that it's "unwanted" and what I am doing if I use my personal experience to say SBC is superior.

Bottom line, it's an expensive system, Bosch I'm sure will continue to develop it, and MB has moved on from it.. to they're detriment IMHO.

mleskovar

Never said it was unwanted, you said that. I said it is a reduction in safety which is not anecdotal. Failing to stop in a timely manner is not subjective.
My other gripes about SBC...weight, limited increase in functionality, cost, complexity are debateable but with the limited information made available to us it would be the unknowledgeable talking to the unknowledgeable. Quite the contrary, I would say that out of the vocal people on this subject more want it with all it's warts than don't want it. "Superior" in backup?

mleskovar

Better yet, why don't you make up private email lists with all the people that only agree with you? You'll never be disappointed! Forums are about dissent as well as agreement.

Germancar1

I think you're reading far too much into one roadtest of the two cars. I know you're saying they didn't get the suspension right (or perfect) on the W211, but what I'm saying is that numbers aside the W211 drives much, much better than the W210 and as far as braking is concerned lets see what happens when they get rid of SBC. I think you're going by one Road and Track roadtest of the two cars, but what about what others have gotten for the two cars? A slight gain in numbers, but they've made a huge gain in feel and control in my experience. Those small gains in braking/conering by the numbers matched with a much better ride especially with the E500 vs the old E430 makes the W211 a winner in my book.

The Quattroporte is an outright sports sedan so it should stop better than the E500. They aren't in the same class. The Quattroporte competes with cars like the CLS55/E55 and BMW M5, not the E500. The E500 is much softer than the Quattroporte with much less agressive rubber. I think you have to look at all the factors when it comes to braking distances, not just weight/size. The Maser is a Ferrari with 2 extra doors.

Yes I was let down in many ways by the W210 compared to the W124 (loved that car!) and compared to the new E.

M

vinceC

Germancar1 - Yes, it is one test. But, in my experince, Road and Track has the most consistent, repeatable results. The W211 is a better car in some ways, but replacing my E430 would mean spending $10K more than I laid out for the W210, and I just don't see the value. The Maser is way more expensive, but I came away convinced it is worth every penny.

The E55 only stops 2 feet better that the E430 according to R & T, still much worse than the Maserati.

As for the 124, and this is way OT, I spent well over $50K for my 1988 300TE, only to have it be the second worst car I have ever owned (#1 was a '66 VW Squareback many years ago). I hated that POS. My W210 has beat it in every area. Ironically, I was talking with a freind this weekend who is just dumping his '87 300TD and we both agree the W124 was highly over-rated (we both kept the cars because our wives loved them - they just didn't have to fix them). At 100K those cars just plain fall apart. For many of us, the W124 memory is not a fond one.

Germancar1

I still don't get why you're comparing a E500 with a Quattroporte. They're two very different cars in two different segments. For the E55 to not brake that much better than the previous E430 is troubling, but that must have been some E430 they tested!

Well I've never owned a W124 so I can't argue with your experiences with it. Me personally, I loved that car especially the 300CE/E320 Coupe and the 500E/E500. I drove both several time, but the E500 was like the best Benz I'd driven until many years later when I finally got a chance to drive the R129 SL500.

Though I must say that your experience with the W124 isn't what I've normally seen with that car. I see them all the time and they appear to be a great shape for what is basically a 20 year old design.

M

vinceC

Germancar1 - That's why I brought in the E55. But, since the E55 doesn't have any real differences in suspension design, it doesn't seem to be able to get much from it's larger tires, brakes and wheels (compared to the E500). It ends up being somewhat like the old American cars - big motor with lots of power. Ironic, since when I started messing with M-B they criticized that sort of thing. My how times have changed.

I think you need to drive the Maserati before dismissing it as too sporting to be compared to "luxury" cars. I have always found that Ferraris and Maseratis had an amazing compliant ride considering their purpose. My 1967 330 GTC rode better than my 1971 250/8 sedan! Yes the Maser is a sporting car, but it rides extremely well and is as comfortable as an S-Class. It just doesn't overwhelm with techo-wizardry, so folks into that sort of thing may not like it. Personally, I think the extra cornering and braking performance is a safety feature.

If you want to get more perspective on the 124, follow the various boards. Lots of folks think all the problems are because the car was neglected, but there really wasn't any service routine that would have prevented the problems.

Anyway, I think we've hammered this issue into oblivion. Best regards.

Germancar1

Well I think its all in the SBC braking not being as effective as it should be. We'll see how the E63 fares.

I guess I would have to drive the Maser because everything I've seen about it talked about how it had a jittery ride and for a car that handles as good as they say it does I don't think it would even come close to the ride of an S-Class, IMO.

M

Nevada Jack

Easy Sam...LOL

schnell

Hi guys,

I realize this is my 1st post and a bit late to join in the discussion. I hope to put paid to your claim that it's just non-owners griping. I'm a really disenchanted W211 ex-owner. I bought a 2002 E200 Kompressor Avantgarde-spec and ditched the car in 9 months because it was a disaster. I so wanted to love the car. In many ways, it was perfect. Really hit the MB tagline "everything we know in a car".

Only problem was, it couldn't brake smoothly, and I tried everything. This is not a boast for the sake of it, but I do have experience in racing single seaters and currently race in endurance races. I also instruct new racers, so I've both seen and tried every form of braking imaginable. I tried to brake smoothly, brake like a learner driver and everything in between, but the results were just the same. I felt like I was squeezing a sponge and the only results I got were headbanging passengers. Despite the lack of pedal pulsing on ABS activation, the pedal would regularly vibrate every few stops like an unbalanced compressor / pump. To top it all off, mine was one of the 1st few cars that suffered actual brake failure in Singapore. Progress? No. Anecdotal evidence? Hardly.

I put my money where my mouth is and I sold the car within 9 months of purchasing it at a significant loss. So please don't tell me that it's all anecdotal evidence from non-owners. Otherwise,

However, I am willing to accept that the system has improved in the years between 2002 and 2005. As fas I've noticed in this thread, most of the owners who've like the system have been owners of newer-build cars. There is a distinct possibility that MB dug into their considerable engineering talent to rectify the problems on my car.

My question thusly, is this. I am considering getting back into a facelifted W211. Do any of you know if SBC or no, the car doesn't have a braking system that results in headbanging.

Thanks for your input.

glojo

Hi schnell,
I will very tactfully say that perhaps you had a defective car!!! I have driven empty heavy goods vehicles where applying too much pressure on the footbrake would put you through tghe windscreen, I have driven cars with cable brakes where it took four days to come to a halt!! It is all about adapting.

I subscribe mainly to a European forum where 99% of 211 owners rave about this excellent system and we have cars right through the range. I am very surprised that someone with your expertise could not adapt, but I accept what your saying.

Regards,
John

Barry45RPM

In the USA the 211 started with the 2003 model year. I ordered 2004 during the 1st week the dealers had accurate info in their ordering computer systems in Sept 2003. It was built in November 2003 and delivered 12/23/03 Did Singapore get the 211s a year earlier, in 2002?

BudC

It's gone in the 2007 W211's. At least the pump has been replaced by the old vacuum assist.

Quite frankly, I don't believe that the SBC system had many flaws. In fact, some of the very early problems were the result of dealers not knowing how to bleed the brakes.

The major problem so far as I'm concerned is the same one you had, ergonomics.

It's difficult to brake smoothly in traffic. I did find that after they correctly bled the brakes on my 03/04 E320, braking was much improved.

We've been fortunate on this Forum because one of our posters (Konigstiger) has kept us abreast of changes well ahead of any information from the Importer (MBUSA). Because of Konigstiger, some of us had changes/improvements/recalls performed months in advance of any public announcements about them.

Oh BTW, take some advice from a guy that's older than dirt...never, ever buy the first model year. The 2007's should be fairly reliable. The only thing new of any significance is the brakes and it's supposed to have a system similar to the new S-Class.

lig

schnell -

I am in complete agreement with you. I don't have nearly the racing resume that you have compiled but I have won two regional auto-x championships so I know a little bit about driving.

I absolutely hated the non-linear feel of the brakes. Never really came to terms with them. And yes - it was a very early '03. ('02 build)

schnell

I can't remember the exact date of registration if that's what you are asking. But the registration # starts with an SDZ. Now if you're familiar with Singapore plates, then this corresponds to the 1st half of 2003, maybe Feb, but I don't really remember. And the car was present in the dealer's lot for some time prior to registration, maybe 1-2 months, maybe more, I have no way of finding out. Now, I don't have an inkling as to when it was built nor can I remember the registration date from a few years ago, but working backwards from that you end up with sometime late in 2002. If I remember correctly, Singapore was one of the markets singled out for early delivery from the rest of the world to reduce grey import activity. Either that or you were spared from an early build because we were the guinea pigs. If that was the case, be thankful for that, but that's purely speculation, and I'm not here to quibble about dates nor what could/may have been, but to share a nasty experience I had and to find out whether it will be repeated if I buy another one.

All I remember from the whole experience was a perfect car ruined by the brakes. Now, I accept that its entirely possible that I got a lemon, but after speaking to the service advisors, so did a few other people. Does this make a majority? I have no idea. It may have been 5% of the W211 owners or 95%. All I know is I was really . Even after the recall was performed, nothing perceptible changed, so I go rid of it. I didn't want every stop I performed to look like this : Ok, so the wall's an exagerration, but it was still irritating.

Glojo, you're British right? There was a column in The Autocar around that time from their German correspondent (Wolfgang Konig I think it was) concerning German taxi drivers being up in arms over the SBC brake system. Does that constitute a majority as well? I have no idea and as far as I'm concerned, that's his opinion, but it's not what I'm looking for.

Anyway, I'm pretty certain that I got a very early build of the car and it may well have been a lemon, but I would be grateful if the owner's of newer W211's please let me know if they have been happy with their SBC's and whether they are being thrown around whenever they make a stop. I loved every other aspect of the car and am deciding whether I may have been too hasty in judging it and whether I should consider another. Owners please?

schnell

My car was difficult to brake in traffic as well, and nothing they did changed that. Maybe I need to find better technicians or move off an island crammed with traffic...

Thanks for the advice BudC. I've learnt my lesson. From now on, it's gonna be at least the 3rd model year for me. I implicitly trust MB's engineering dept., not the marketing dept. who I blame for my car. I think it was rushed and they took time to get it right, AFTER the car was launched.

schnell

Non-linear describes it pretty well lig.

I would go further to say that mine had a mind of it's own. I remember freaking out every few traffic stops when it would suddenly reduce braking effort in the last few mph of it's own volition -- the much-vaunted softstop. Upon noticing that the car wasn't braking and seeing the rear bumper of the car in front closing, I would jump on it and it probably activated the brake assist, which resulted in a huge increase in braking effort and therefore the . my first thoughts were

With all respect to Glojo, maybe you do have to try to learn the system. But 9 months was long enough for me and I'm not sacrificing all the hard-wired instincts that serve me so well for a jumped-up system that costs so much (the tech reps told me the brake pump was around $10k!!) and contributes so little to the driving experience. All I hope for is that the newer cars will prove me wrong.

And for those who say that it's a safety issue, well MB had brake assist long before SBC and even other newer cars have almost all of the safety bonuses of SBC without the drawbacks including the light application in rain.

In a nutshell, I can't think of a reason for SBC other than technology for technology's sake.

Barry45RPM

Aparently, you guys got the W211 a year before us. Thanks for the info.

glojo

Good morning schnell
English sir, English (joke)
Yes there was at least one German taxi driver with a taxi pack very basic 211 that had driven in excess of 500,000km in the car and he complained about 'spongy' brakes!!!!!! When the engineers examined the system they noted the software that counted the amount of times the pedal had been operated had 'topped out' Hence the recall to modify the counter. I think this example really shoots your arguement in the foot (brake) If something like a taxi had sharp, 'on' 'off' type braking then the average driver would be slamming into the back of the quicker stopping taxi???? No one, but no one likes to have their driving criticised, it is usually less insulting to say your breath stinks, or you have body odour. Again, numerous European countries use the 211 as an emergency response vehicle. do you seriously believe they would use these very expensive vehicles if the brakes had 'issues'??? The only drivers allowed to drive these vehicles are advanced drivers that need to use the performance of the vehicle and loosing control is not good PR???

Just read this thread and see how many folks are happy with the car and its brakes. You can put yourself on a pedestal and say your driving abilities are superior to these folks, but I would tactfully say you have simply either failed to adapt, or the car you had was defective. You and anyone else that complains are sooooo in the minority.

To say that you can please some of the people some of the time, but not please all the people all of the time, here is another post about SBC:

My E220CDi has only done 38,000km (15% city & 85% hiway) and there is no brake warning light. However it doesn't bite like before. More foot effort is needed to stop. Any advice please?

Who is right, who is wrong??? One says too sharp, one says tooo soft, but my porridge is just right Sorry about that, I just had a flashback to the three bears story.

John
The happy SBC man
From a sunny, mild morning in Torquay

Barry45RPM

Remember that here in the USA, OUR SBC system contained fewer features than the European systems. I believe that the decision to remove SBC braking system was a cost vs benefit decision.

1. more difficult to service.
2. Too many recalls early in their lifespan - will the system "eat up" MB when the cars are 9-10 years old?
3. Too much time in the shop.
4. Just how much more benefit was there to justify the expense/time/effort/financial risk?
5. MB MUST improve upon its reputation for faulty/inept electronic systems to survive.

It was a noble attempt at a new safety feature whose time hasn't come yet. The rock solid, dependable technology for this kind of braking system is still a few years away. When it returns (and it will) it will be better feeling, and completely dependable... and for right now, there's NOTHING wrong or backward about the more conventional braking system being installed in the '07 onward cars.

glojo

I disagree with quite a lot of your post but agree with the above paragraph.

SBC was a leap forward in braking technology and if Mercedes-Benz can replicate all its benefits in a different cheaper way, then so be it, that is progress and I for one will not criticise them.

I believe and have not read anything that will convince me other wise that SBC was removed because of cost, pure and simple.

There have been countless threads praising this superb system with drivers saying how in their opinion this new braking saved them from possibly a fatal accident. On this forum there are a very, very small minority of drivers who cannot get on with it. That to me is their problem........ If there was a fault and I do not believe that for one minute, then we would all be screaming from the rafters. My wife is the main driver of our 211, and trust me...... If there was anything wrong with the car, then I would know it seconds before the workshop

I'm all for innovation and here's hoping the new system is as good as the old.

Regards,
John
A sunny afternoon in Torquay