BudC

This is because they didn't recommend synthetic oil. Toyota had the same kind of problem with their V6's. In Toyota's situation, they recommended more frequent changes. Mercedes now recommends ONLY synthetic oil (generally 0W-40 Mobil 1 in the U.S.).

Mercedes also recommends oil filters with fleece as the media. This will handle being in a hot engine for a long time whereas the typical paper filter will break down.

I went a year to my first oil change (paid for by MBUSA because I have a 2004). From now on, I plan to change it myself between the yearly free changes.

Mirage

Well , finally got some more info on Amsoil, been a while.I am not surprised by the results,just what they have been touting since day one...it is the superior engine oil, bar none. I have not had an oil change from MB as of yet and it has been almost a year since I got the car.The FSS has not warned me of an upcoming change because I haven't really put a lot of mlles (5000 aprox.)but I am becoming concerned about it and will call the service dept. and ask to bring it in.
May take your advice and change it on my own in between service trips.Problem is they are still doing it for free,just a question of Mobil1 or AMSOIL
hmmm
( big AMSOIL user )

BudC

What Info did you get and what results did you get that prove that Amsoil is a superior engine oil? I'm not doubting that it is but I've yet to see any proof.

guanabara

Hi Mirage, it took a while to get the months gone by for the next test, but at last I got it.

First and foremost though, since you have a 04 year car, the free oil change occurs at the FSS interval (10000) or 1 year, I believe, so check with your dealer as it may be about time for the free change. Many dealers in my area recommend that the oil be changed at the owners expense at a period of 6 months.

One of the parameters that one can see from the link that you posted earlier is the clearly lowest NOACK volatility and Four-ball wear tests for Amsoil oil when compared with all other synthetic oils out there.
As far as volatility I have seen that clearly when lifting the dipstick and observing the oil thickness after going for 6 or more months. The Amsoil oil still forms drops quite quickly , almost as when it was new. The other brand commonly used, did take a while to form any drop , if it did. Given that Amsoil has half the volatility of the brand most beleive to be the gold standard, then it confirmed to me that their lab test results were duplicatable in real car engines. The same goes for the four-ball wear tests, an indicator of friction protection. In the test results below you can see the wear metal indications for the same car which was driven 20% longer in terms of miles and months using the Amsoil oil. The wear metal indications are not much different except for Molyb, which is an additive in the M1 oil and as such does not allow a clear cut comparison between the 2 brands as far as this potential wear metal, which is used in valves and piston rings and other high friction surfaces. So in the interest of being able to observe the wearing of those parts and also given the demonstrated better performance in my view for the other metals, I have made my mind on using Amsoil from now on. Again though, if you can get a free oil change from the dealer then it is a wise idea to take advantage of that.
Just make sure that they use the fleece filter (I would pay the extra $10 or less difference if they say the standard paper element is their normal filter type used.). At the 6 month intervals check the oil level, if you don't do it more often, and make sure that it is near the level when you first changed it. Do the drip test (how long does it take for a drop to form from the dip stick when lifted off the warm engine. Compare that to when it was new) and finally open the oil fill cover on the top of the engine and check to see if it is full of sludge looking like a pudding of light cream color.


Please see the posting dated Dec 9, 2005 on the link below, for a full list of all wear metal and additives counts for the 2 lab oil tests done on my 99 C230, for my own benefit, but freely shared here for whoever finds it useful for their education on the subject.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=91611&page=2&pp=50

CE750

I'm sorry but the 13000 interval is not ideal... it came about as a compromise in cost/benefit when MB first decided to give away free service.

Every reputable mechanic, and a mechanical engineer I've spoken to insist that fluids are the KEY to keeping your vehicle running like new.

Upon buying my car, with 7 miles on it... I drove it gently for the first 1000, then had the oil and filter changed.. I also too this time to switch to Mobil 1 Delvac 5W-40.

I then changed it again at 3000 with filter, and again at 6500... which will now be my new interval (or 1/2 the 13K).

I also will change the transmission fluid out at 26Km and 52K etc..
I will change coolant at 36K,etc..
I will change brake fluid at 26K

If I own the car long enough..

I will change the differential fluid at 72K, and the power steering fluid at 72K

Screw paying the dealer $300 for a service where he just changes the oil, and spend the rest of the time twirling his thumbs looking under the hood.. I've got a mechanic that will actually do work for that money..

BudC

The oil Amsoil calls a 5W-40 European Motor Oil is a PAO synthetic with data similar to Mobil 1 0W-40. It's an MB Sheet 229.5 approved oil.

I believe this is a fairly new formulation for Amsoil and would certainly be a good alternative to Mobil 1 0W-40. It will cost more but now that Mobil has had to change additive packages, it might be easier to find then Mobil 1.

The question arises that if you use this oil when you do an interim oil change between free dealer changes, what are the consequences. You get one oil for six months and a different oil for six months. Using 0W-40 Mobil 1 for your interim changes will not only save you money but resolve the problem of brand changes every six months.

You could always take Amsoil oil with you when you take your car in for service. It would cost you around $60 once a year but might be worth it if the state of 0W-40 Mobil 1 is still up in the air.

If you do not get free maintenance, then this (new?) formulation looks good if you are willing to pay the premium for it.

As I've said before, I have been turned off by Amsoil's failure to provide any comparisons with other true synthetics. They always talked about Amsoil vs. conventional motor oils. Here is an Amsoil comparison test using 10W-30 oils.
http://www.syntheticoildealer.com/th...comparison.htm

It's unfortunate that they didn't test 40 weight oils.

Just an afterthought. I think I'll go get 8 quarts of 0W-40 Mobil 1 now before it changes and use it for my interim change. When the time for a free change rolls around, I'll see what kind of oil the dealer is using and possibly switch to Amsoil.

guanabara

The 2 links below do show an apples to apples comparison:

http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d...l_vs_mobil1.htm

http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d...oil_testing.htm

In as far as the APO formulation goes, they were the first to use it for automobiles several decades ago, before anyone else did. The fact that many others manufacturers still don't use it today does not prevent them from using the competing "top of the line formulations" for comparison purposes.

Reading the introduction for the tests they performed you can see their up front stating the types of oils used for the comparison. That's great to have a manufacturer who will come up front and show what gets used by different owners and how well they all perform . The few graphs presented speak 1000 words in showing the differences. Here it follows:

API Motor Oil Testing:

AMSOIL Synthetic 10W-30 Motor Oil (ATM) and 10 competing conventional and synthetic 10W-30 motor oils were subjected to a series of API motor oil tests. The competing oils included petroleum-based Castrol GTX Drive Hard, Mobil Drive Clean, Pennzoil with Purebase, Quaker State Peak Performance and Valvoline, as well as synthetic-based Valvoline Synpower, Quaker State, Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil and Mobil 1 SuperSyn Multi-Vehicle.

This is footnote statement in their comparison links above that clarifies your comment on the APO formulation:

AMSOIL INC. has been the leader in synthetic motor oil formulation since its introduction of the world’s first API rated synthetic motor oil in 1972. By specializing exclusively in synthetic lubricant technology, AMSOIL is able to optimize the most advanced chemistries available. The “Genuine Synthetic PAO Formulated” designation displayed on AMSOIL packaging indicates that the oils are formulated with Polyalphaolefin (PAO) synthetic base stocks. This chemistry is the industry’s premier base stock technology. Unlike conventional mineral-based chemistries, AMSOIL PAO base stocks contain fully saturated, hydrogenated molecules and are free of wax and other impurities. Combined with an exact balance of premium additives, it delivers superior hot and cold temperature performance, resists oxidation and acid formation and provides long-term wear protection. AMSOIL “Genuine Synthetic PAO Formulated” oils have shattered the parameters of the most rigorous industry testing and set the standard for all other motor oils.

BudC

Just to repeat myself, those tests were conducted with Mobil 1's 30 weight oils which we know are not PAO oils. In other words, they were essentially testing against a Mobil petroleum based oil.

Mercedes recommends using 0W-40 Mobil 1 which is a PAO oil and which is the oil we should be concerned with when comparing to Amsoil's oils.

It's possible that Amsoil might still look better but not by much.

Oil debates are pretty much academic since there are probably very few that have their cars for more than 4-5 years and certainly not well into the second decade like some of us.

guanabara

I believe both are PAO based with differnt formulations.
The link below may clarify this further.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/...Do_For_Me.aspx
Their test seemed to have been focused for the US consumer market and therefore used to 30W oil.

Interestingly my test comparison in the same car does show a better performance so far at the 4300 miles point using the european formulation for both oil blends.

BudC

Please read what Mobil said again. This is what they said...
They are made from a combination of advanced, high-performance fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAOs), That doesn't say that all of their oils have a PAO base (and they don't). As I've said before, that's why the Mobil 1 30 weights are specifically not approved by Mercedes.

I used to use Mobil 1 10W-30 but stopped when they changed from a Base-4 (PAO) to a Base-3 (petroleum).

IMHO those tests comparing the 5W-30 and 10W-30 Mobil 1 oils to the Amsoil oils having a PAO base aren't valid.

SAguirre

I have to respectfully say that your statement above is totally untrue. The FSS came out in 1998 in the USA. This was 2 years before Mercedes Benz started to give free service on their vehicles. This 13,000 mile interval is actually extended even longer in Germany where Mercedes Benz has NEVER had free service.

The 13,000 mile interval was lowered in the US so that US drivers, who had 3,000 miles or 3 months engraved into their subconscious, would not feel to freaked out if MB said that their service interval could be 20,000 miles. In Europe E200 CDI Taxies are driving 20,000 miles between oil changes and getting well over 500,000 miles out of their engines. Mercedes Benz 220 Sprinter trucks are also going this long with no issues.

This is not only done by MB. BMW has had a 15,000 mile oil change interval since the mid 1990. Porsche also has an extended oil change interval.

US consumers need to understand that we are throwing away perfectly good oil. I myself am guilty of doing this, but I have started to get my oil tested and now I am letting myself believe in this. It is hard to believe, but if the engine is properly broken in and the oil filter is good (fleece) then 13,000 miles in normal driving conditions is absolutely OK for true synthetic oil.

Remember; in Germany MBs only have a 2 year (unlimited mileage, I think) warranty. If all these Germans had engine rebuild problems after about 150,000 miles there would be a huge uprising in Germany. This has not happened and we still have a hard time believing this in the US. I am sure that some of our UK members can attest to this.

Steve

CE750

Or friend Steve (MBenzNL) has some very high milage cars that didn't get the 13K-15K oil changes.. he changes his transmission fluid, etc.. furthermore Europeans are overly obsessed with the environmental impact of oil changes, and this shadows science when it comes to car care.

Every competent mechanic or engineer I've spoken to says the 13k oil change is a farce.. especially on a diesel... Had it been a semi truch with 95% highway miles, maybe.. but the way the typical car is driven is totally different. These cars are being designed by the manufacturer as disposable cares... if you have no intention of keeping it for the long run, then follow the FSS.. if you want to keep it, then double the oil change interval, and add transmission and other areas to the service.

Here is an example of real world vs Marketing BS:

from: http://www.pfmmag.com/summer03/summe...eintervals.htm

MB didn't re-invent their engines to run on synthetic.. they basically just started to run them on it..
Why take the risk to save a lousy $50?

BudC

I've just read a test where someone ran a comparison between Mobil 1 5W-30 and Amsoil 5W-30. The idea was to see how each oil would handle long term oil changes. The oil was tested at fixed intervals. The oils were tested in the same car, first one and then the other. The car was used in normal driving that had a mix of urban and highway driving. When they switched from Mobil 1 to Amsoil, they changed to Amsoil, they ran it for a bit and then changed oil again.

The test wasn't all that controlled except that they used well known test labs for the oil tests and tried to be consistant with the test periods. They relied on the labs to tell them when to change oil but also pushed the envelope to see what would happen.

These oils used entirely different additive packages. The package used in Amsoil appears to be designed for a greater reduction in wear (lots of zinc for example) but as you will see, this resulted in a significant change in viscosity as time went on.

Long story short they had to change the oil at 13K with Amsoil and 18K with Mobil 1 based on the condition of the oil. If they accounted for the oil that was added during the test because of the oil lost due to oil filter changes, normal engine oil usage and the oil taken for the tests, the Amsoil would have had to be changed at 10K and Mobil 1 at some longer period (forgot what it was).

One thing they found was that even if you keep the oil in for an extended period, you must change the filters when the tests show the filters stop working. It wasn't because the filter deteriorated, it was because the filter could no longer accommodate more debris.

Another thing they found is that both oils increased in viscosity during the test with the Amsoil going from a mid-range 5W-30 to the equivalent of 15W-40. This increase in viscosity (especially with the Amsoil) resulted in poorer gas mileage and a rough running engine. It took Mobil 1 much longer before it increased in viscosity to the point where it affected engine performance.

There is one thing that I think should be clear. No matter which oil company you listen to (Mobil, Amsoil, Redline, etc.), they will all tout long oil change intervals but they all say to change in one year no matter the mileage. That's what I would do even if I came down on the side of long change intervals.

Incidentally, the people who ran this test recommend a compromise of 8K oil change intervals.

BTW, I've cleared my browser's history so I can't provide a link to that test. Sorry

HELL ONA HARLEY

I totally agree with you Steve... As I've said before .... Its the oil companies and mechanics are the ones pushing shorter oil change intervals not the auto manufactures... I'm sure MB and other auto makers know there is a lot of potential $$$ out there to be had by simply requiring more oil changes, but by running synthetics, it just not nessecary. Sure, changing more often isn't going to hurt anything but your pocketbook and of course the enviorment, so knock yourself out.

Bottom line is I feel there will be other deciding factors that will be the demise of our cars other than the oil... especialy when your running syn's. I for one follow the manufactures recommended oil change scedule and I'm positive my engine will be around just as long as the folks that change their oil more often.... Its the rest of the car I worry about.

cdiken

In Europe, the 20,000 mile interval is specified for CDI engines.

As Steve said, likely has to do with the psychology of 3,000 miles pounded into Americans.

My question is, do lower sulfur fuels contribute to the longer recommended interval? Other than slightly taller gearing and higher speed limits (both of which lead to fewer engine HOURS, all other things held constant, per mile).

Additionally, when lower sulfur appears in the US, could we stretch our oil change intervals out?

BTW, planes, equipment, etc are maintained on hour clocks, not miles. Engine hours are available in the service menu, anyone care to chime in on how many hours should be used as a change interval? Most diesels in equipment (Caterpillar and Deere) are calling for 200-300 hour intervals with conventional oils and filters. I'm thinking 450 hours tops, with synthetics and a mix of city/highway driving.

HELL ONA HARLEY

The diesel power welding / generator machine (MQ) on my work truck has a 1000 hrs interval. They also recommend dyno oil...

CE750

The "duty" of an engine will determine it's interval.. On a jet engine, it's assumed (and typically the case) that the engine is running at some max power (nominal rating based on temp/alt/speed) for most of it's life and therefore the typical Jet engine has less dynamic internal friction than a car engine which could spend a lot of time at idle, then at high rpm, then at low, etc.. which is VERY dynamic..

A diesel semi truck that runs on the highway most of it's life, can go 300+ hours without an oil change, because most of that time is spent at a steady state rpm range so the 18000 miles is easily doable, and the oil doesn't contaminate as much as with an engine in a diesel car.

The equipment that Vince mentioned at his work is likely a constant RPM or maybe two speed engine.. much like you'll find on a Diesel Electric Locomotive.

Many variables play into the interval, but I can tell you FSS is supposed to calculate those variables and reduce the oil change to below 13K ... but I for one don't trust the simplicity of FSS's methods.. had it actually tested the oil for viscosity (which as Bud mentioned in his post increases over time), or contamination, and detergent level.. I would go the full 13K, but my 6500 mile interval is much closer to the 8K that most experts on Synth oil call the ideal interval.. and for the lousy $50 it costs me to change, it I'll be damned if I'm going to "trip over a dime to pick up a nickel".

CE750

both valid and probably directly related to the difference.

SAguirre

I am sorry to once again tell you that what Steve at MBNL does has no influence on what the greater German population does and gets away with with no negative consequence. Furthermore, what old US technology V8s do with synthetic oil is quite inconsequential to Mercedes cars. Remember, what you are saying about the opinions of engineers is also simply opinions from people who grew up in our 3k 3 month culture.

Why are German taxies running just fine at 500,000 thousand miles? Mercedes has no incentive to lengthen their oil change intervals in Europe. Mercedes cars are so common in Germany that every shop has the tools to service them (oil changes). So if they increased their service intervals their customers would not be going to the dealer for service anyway. So have just started your long trip to recovery from oil over changing.

Like a stated before, I will get my oil tested once again and if the numbers are OK, then I will not waste my money. I do plan to keep my Mercedes for about 10 years, but I am not worried about my engine. If the E320 gasoline engine could still keep running with regular oil while using the FSS and the only problem was oil consumption, then I think that good clean synthetic will run fine.

I don't plan to go any longer than one year (give or take one month) or 11,000 miles on my oil. I have an extended warranty for 7 years and 100k miles, if I develop a problem they can not void my warranty and it will show up before it is over. However, I will be willing to wager that my car will be fine.

Mercedes might have little issues but they along with Porsche, VW, Audi and BMW can not all be telling their customers to ruin their cars! Do all of these great engineers who build some of the finest cars in the world know nothing?

Steve

BudC

I recently bought a new filter for my E320. That sucker is small. If people come down on the side of long change intervals, they should change the filter somewhere in between. This is especially important for the first 20,000 miles or so where engine break-in is going to occur.

BTW, the ecological argument against more frequent oil changes doesn't seem to hold water if they choose power over fuel economy. If I changed oil every six months, I'm using 8 quarts of recyclable PAO based lubricant. That pales in comparison to the amount of fuel used in any of our cars.

The cost for me to change oil is about what a luncheon for two would cost with drinks and a dessert. In other words, it's a non-factor for me.

SAguirre

I also read this but I can not remember where it was. Like you stated, if you change it at least once a year and the filter element is good, you will not have a problem.

I also respect the fact that you know this and still choose to service your car a bit more than needed, which is totally your choice to make.

I am thinking about at least changing my oil filter element at about 5k miles and this way I will know that all will be fine while at the same time not wasting too much money.

In the end, oil lab tests don't lie and I will make sure my oil is OK and will not cause premature wear on my engine before I go a full 10k to 13k on my oil. So far I have only gone about 6,000 miles on one change and 5k on the other.

Steve

CE750

His dad does own one of the primer MB repair shops in Holland, so I would put some weight in what he does.

Do we KNOW for a fact all of those 500,000 taxi's are on FSS or long interval oil changes? Living in Germany 2 years, I found that most taxi owners/operators cared better for their cab than themselves.. so I doubt they are, but if you have a link, I'd be interested in reading about it.

OK isn't good enough for me.. so I will waste the $50..

Since you a) keep with in your interval, and b) have a 7 year warranty, you would indeed be wasting your money.. but since I don't have the (b) part, I'll take out my own insurance against a catastrophic engine/transmission failure for an additional $50/6months.

Auto makers are in business to do one thing... sell autos.. and if they last 6 years or 12 years will have little effect on the elasticity of demand for their product, but it will have tremendous effects on their turnover and bottom line.. you do what you want, and I'll stick to my double interval and added fluid changes..

CE750

This is in point of fact, critical to the long interval.. Amsoil hammers it, and so does Mobil for their Semi-truck users.

I worked for Swift Trucking for 5 years and spoke to many of their maintenance people on this subject.. they used hours, and changed filters 3 times before they would drain/re-fil oil.. which was ALWAYS synthetics like Amsoil series 2000 or Mobil 1 Extended Performace.

So if you want to do the 13K interval, at least get the filter done at 6500.

CE750

Good reading:

http://www.babcox.com/editorial/ic/ic90236.htm

http://www.filtercouncil.org/techdata/tsbs/94-1.html

SAguirre

I see and totally understand all your points. More frequent oil changes could be a very cheap form of insurance. If it also gives you peace of mind, then you should also do it.

By doing what you say you do you are definitely NOT damaging anything. I am also sure you can easily afford the cost and that is not an issue either. The issue is if the FSS will damage the engine and I am starting to think that it will not.

I am not blindly believing in it. I attended graduate school in Aachen Germany and Maastricht Netherlands. I lived in Europe for 3 years. RWTH Aachen is a top notch engineering school where a lot of new engine technology gets developed. I have very close friends who have finally started to convince me that the interval that the FSS tells you is not a problem. These are people who work at the FEV institute in Aachen where they test all kinds of engines and oils.

However, if I totally believed them I would not be testing my oil. So I still have about 20% of me that is totally skeptical and I want to really make sure that my engine is not being damaged. In the end, it would quite idiotic to ruin an engine by 100,000 miles when maybe $600 in preventive oil changes (done by me) would have prevented this.

I am still working on getting rid of my 20% skepticism of the FSS, but I think that I am making progress. If the FSS works fine, it is a hell of a system that is being a bit more environmentally friendly. However, I do agree with Bud's comment. I always recycle my oil, so that is better than rebuilding an engine or discarding a car.

Steve