jim256

EDJoe: No offense taken, but the cars you listed don't have the degree of complexity created by all the "stuff" MB now puts in their cars. I kind of lamented the days that the turn signals were just wired into a harness. Now, however, for safety, they operate on a LAN, and when a bulb fails I get a "nearby bulb" operating in its place until the failed bulb is replaced. I get head cushion airbags that deploy if I roll over. I get brakes that keep themselves dry when it's raining. On and on....and I get systems that monitor the systems. I'll put up with a little bit of trouble for what I am getting, and I understand that computers have glitches, too. I've had other defective car batteries, other main seal leaks--both on Japanese cars. The washer bottle on a company Olds leaked.

I read that the new BMW 745i even has trouble remembering what language to use in displays, and some folks are resetting their computer settings daily. Thank goodness nobody with the E has those kinds of issues, but it does show the direction auto development is headed in the premium market. We had a '95 Cirrus for 5 years--nothing but oil changes. My wife's PT Cruiser has not had any issues in a full year of ownership. I still want the MB, however!

500AMG

Note I do own a Mercedes

Just to play devil's advocate, what good is all the complexity if all it causes are problems/doesn't work right? Maybe it's better to wait a couple of years until all cars have those features? (high-end manufacturers pioneer, but all will copy sooner or later)

Just food for thought

nelsonr

Well, we did get a MB rep to take a look at the car on Jan 2nd. They keep the car the 2nd and the 3rd. They replaced the gateway module and software a third time. Things worked great over the weekend. My wife got in the car this morning and had a failure message for the Tele-aid system. I spoke to MB again after that. I am demanding the car be replaced. I know some will think this is excessive, but after 7 trips to the dealership for repairs, I think the car is a lemon. I simply expect more from any car. Technological advances mean nothing if the car is always broken. I asked the rep if I needed to submit the completed paperwork for the lemon law or if MB was willing to stand behind their cars. He has promised me a reply by tomorrow.

He did ask that I bring the car in and let them attach the computer and read the failure code. I suggested they could come to my house if they would like to do any diags. on the car. I am simply tired of spending time in the dealership waiting on repairs or diagnostics to be completed.

Dema

Can you get just full refund for your car? It looks like most of new E owners report different type of problems and there is no guarantee that a replacement will be better. I saw some post here, that a guy changed 3! cars, gave up and bought Lexus. Actually I think you need just wait until 2004 model. Meantime, you could try another European car like Audi, Jaguar or BMW.

500AMG

From what I understand, Tele-Aid is not a brand new thing for Mercedes...you would think they would have the bugs worked out by now

drb

So what is it you understand, and what is your source?

no DVD?

works just like the 02 model?

what bugs?

please articulate.

jdhoang

Picked up my E320 in November. Love the car and only experienced one problem with the radio not working. Restarted car half hour later seemed to fix the problem.

Yesterday, my remote key did not seem to work properly -- took a couple of presses to open door and I can't lock my car with it. Saw a Display Malfunction light on computer, and now my turn signals and hazard lights do not work. My fuel gauge display does not work as well, and I can't unlock my trunk or fuel filler cap. Found this out at gas station, so I contacted TeleAid but they couldn't help me and told me to take it for service soon.

Called my dealer (HBL at Vienna, VA) to schedule an appointment, and they say the earliest they can schedule me is Jan 20 (over a week). I asked since fuel cap and turn signals do not work, could this be considered an emergency so I can come in earlier. The service rep told me everyone and his brother has an emergency, but I could come in today to get the fuel cap unlocked. Naturally, I wasn't too thrilled to hear this response as I certainly did not want to drive around w/my signal lights not working. Plus, who knows what else may fail in the meantime.

So, I decided to call other dealerships who can look at my car sooner. I called MB of Alexandria,VA and they told me to take the car in today! Has anyone had experience with the service department at this dealership? I believe it's a new dealership that's part of American Service Center. Thanks for any help/advice.

drb

I have used ASC in Arlington for many years. They tend to fix my car the first time, but on a couple occasions they forgot to return the dipstick and the cup holder. The recent expansion of ASC to Alexandria could mean a service deterioration, but that remains to be seen.

jim256

On the '01 C and the '98 E, simply inserting the key into the dashboard port without turning the key re-synchs the key to the car and cured some early problems with opener/locker recognition for me on both cars. I'd recommend that first. Later in the C evolution they improved the key module in the dash and gave me a new one which had no further problems. Trying the second key also helps localize it to the fob versus the car. Given all that's out, it could also simply be a fuse but I don't have the chart handy. I believe there is a chart in each fuse box which shows what's on each fuse.

Mellow

When i was discussing final options with the 'head of operations' @ our dealership, basically the guy who takes in all the special orders, he advised against all the gadgetry and hes been @ the job a loooong time to say the least,weve orderd two other cars from him so hes pretty honest with us and gives us the 'lowdown' on almost anything from class to engines to individual options.This guy was trying to convey to me that all these options in a two or three years would be a 'headache' to put it in his words he specifically tried to stop me ordering airmatic, dynamic drive seats and keyless go, but i was too much of a gadget to budge , he did manage to convince me not to order the tire air pressure monitor, which he said has had problems in the dealership. After reading some of the posts on this forum im scared sh#tless about keyless go , and i hope it works fine, unfortunatley those of us who crave the latest gadgetry have to deal with all the glitches and bugs that come with it
Incidentally our old w210 had a problem with the SRS light and the sensor had tobe replaced, the ac controls were replaced under warranty coz they were faulty (the guys at the service center realised this i thought they were fine), and two months later they were replaced again, all covered by the warranty so i didnt care much
Nelsonr we await your update with great anticipation!

Rock72

i keep seeing the same point brought up when there are complaints about the quality of a MB versus a car like a honda or toyota.

i think that's oversimplying the argument. it's not that easy to make a virtually trouble free car like a honda or toyota. if it were that easy ford, GM, hyundai, etc...would be making dependent cars also.

the MB C240 isn't much more complex than the current toyota camry or nissan altima but it has a ton of problems.

if a company cannot handle making quality cars at a certain level of complexity, they should simply lower the complexity. i would much rather have a simple car that works than a very complex car that doesn't work.

of course, there's middle ground. i would rather have a complex car with a bunch of bells and whistles that work 95% of the time over a car without any bells and whistles that works 98% of the time.

the point that pisses me off when i read this thread is how mercedes treats its customers. one of the reasons why i shop at a nice place (mercedes, gucci store, etc.) is for great service. this means that if the car is a lemon and i fulfill the requirements for a lemon, mercedes should be willing to take the car back without any hassle whatsoever. that's the level of service they need to strive for.

even at land rover, my friend's discovery was a lemon. they replaced it for him and gave him a new one. it wasn't that much hassle (but they did make him pay for the difference in value since his land rover was a few months old and had X miles on it).

Rock.

ctouhey

Once they replaced the amplifer module, mine has worked perfectly.

Mellow

ctouhey ,
thanks for the insight hopes it works fine when it gets here

nelsonr

Rock,
Very good points. As someone else said, no level of complexity is an excuse for poor quality. I would expect a complex quality assurance process to go along with a complex car.

The Mercedes dealer did send the tech out last night to pull the diagnostics codes with their computer. Interesting but the Tele-Aid did not register, Does that mean the tele-aid system is working or are the diag's bad. At this point I have no idea. The diags did show a failure on the drivers side dynamic seats. Which the tech said not to worry about.

No response from MB yet on the requested replacement.

Jim Banville

Umm... I think any car dealer would be happy to "buy back" your car and sell you a new one once you pay the depreciation!

Who is this "mercedes" you speak of? The privately owned dealer or Daimler-Benz the corporation?

PEOPLE, complex machine break down more than simple machines. Buy an expensive (several thousand $$$$) hi-end surround sound processor for your home theater and you'll probably have bugs that you'd never have in a typical $199 Jap. receiver. Nature of the beast!

500AMG

Funny thing is...many of the problems are not IN the new, complex systems. Also, Mercedes prides itself on innovation and design. No one here would argue that. I as a consumer purchase Mercedes cars for the innovation and design. Now, if Mercedes introduces a totally new system, like SBC for example, and it has a few glitches...I can live with that. But if my damn sunroof won't close 2 days after buying the car or if my car isn't aligned properly from the factory, that is unacceptable; unless the model year of the car was the 1st to have a sunroof or possibly a steering wheel

Rock72

>Umm... I think any car dealer would be happy to "buy back" your car and sell you a new one once you pay the depreciation!

are you familiar with the lemon laws in your state? for pretty much all states, there's a depreciation formula that goes into the equation.

did you really think that a year later after you put 10,000 miles on the car you can go back and get a brand new one for free under the lemon law? not under any normal circumstance...(the only ways i can think of are if your car broke down the same day that you took delivery and you kept taking it to the dealer thousands of times every few miles until it reached 10,000 miles...or if you took your car to the dealer when you put almost no miles on it and the technician drove it 10,000 miles to test it out...heh).

>Who is this "mercedes" you speak of? The privately owned dealer or Daimler-Benz the corporation?

both. if the dealer does not behave to your satisfaction you should escalate it to mbusa.

>PEOPLE, complex machine break down more than simple machines. Buy an expensive (several thousand $$$$) hi-end surround sound processor for your home theater and you'll probably have bugs that you'd never have in a typical $199 Jap. receiver. Nature of the beast!

The C class and M class are both cheaper than the E class. however, i'm pretty sure they both have more problems than the E or S class.

Rock

Jim Banville

Rock72, my point is that if I took my perfectly fine "02 C240 into the dealer and told him I wanted a new '03 C240, he'd say SURE! While in reality I'd be selling him my old car and buying a new one, we would in essence be trading cars, with me paying the huge difference (depreciation) between them. How is this different from what your friend did? Please post his lemon vehicle's new price, what the dealer gave him for it and the depreciation he had to pay. Perhaps he did get some good deal

nelsonr

In my state the lemon law is based on a deduction of a fee based on number of miles driven before the first problem was reported. This is much less than the normal depreciation a car is subject to. In fact, my dealer suggested I just trade the car in after my 4th visit to the shop when I really started to get mad. A trade is not to my best interest. Buy back under the lemon laws are much more attractive.

Rock72

you lose some money depending on the number of miles that was driven (some states, it's the num of miles before the first time you had a problem, other states, it's total num of miles, etc.).

but the small amount that you lose is much smaller than actually trading in the car for a new one.

i suppose to "dumb down this argument in a way that Jim can understand it" i'll agree that you're just trading in your car for a newer one and paying the difference....but with a wink i'll tell the rest of the smart people that it's not quite the same thing (Jim, ignore this last part...it will just confuse you).

Rock

britton

In the state of wisconsin I think the lemon law states that you get double back what you payed for the car. so if you payed 30,000 for it you would get back 60,000. I do not know if this is good or bad, but I know it depends on what state you live in all states are different concerning the law. If anyone knows for sure about the wisconsin lemon law let me know. Proud owner of 2003 clk 320 I have had for about a month and the only problem I have had is the windshield wiper blades had to be replaced. I am very pleased on the purchases of the 2003 clk 320 at this time. Good luck.

Rock72

no, that's not correct about WI.

in wisconsin, it's the same as most states...which basically is that if the motor vehicle you buy or lease turns out to be a
"lemon," the manufacturer has to replace it or refund the price (minus a reasonable amount for mileage).

the judge will decide if it's been too long, if its a reasonable amount, etc.

in most states, there is actually a formula for mileage driven.

the point of the lemon law (and probably most other laws) is to be fair and reasonable. if a lemon law said that you get back 2x what you paid for the car, then there is a very high incentive for buyers to keep taking their cars to the dealer for repairs to get it classified as a lemon.

the lemon law is not intended for people to trade in their old cars for new ones. the intent is to protect the consumer against lemon cars so that means to get the manufacturer to replace it but also be fair in that you'll get dinged if you have a lot of miles on it.

no judge is going to give you a free replacement if you say your car is a lemon because you took it to the dealer 10 times over the year but you also drove it 50,000 miles in that year, etc.

Rock.

britton

I thought I read about this and to double the purchase price if it was a lemon stuck in my mind for some reason in the state of wisconsin I am probably wrong. Thanks for the information would like to know if anyone else has any information for the state of wisconsin on the leman law.

nelsonr

I have heard something similar, but in the context of a lawsuit for deceptive trade practices. Someone I know took a company to court (a GM product) and the judgement was double the purchase price.

Before the screaming starts, that is not the path I am taking. I just want a fair replacement.

Jim Banville

Thanks seeing as how your post that I commented on (below) was as clear as mud!

Difference in value for age and milage. Yep, that explains it all Isn't it obvious that you are talking about some well-known lemon law equation? You win the award for the best explanation that fails to explain anything