Adobe

I think this is a known problem. It might be TSB P-B-42.46/27A.
Install pulsation damper for SBC - Noisy brake pump.

or;

P-B-42.10/33 - Replace brake disks - Front wheel brake shudder during braking.

I got this Info from this forum.

nyca

but these two features alone are not SBC.

for the US, SBC defines an electrohydraulic braking system. from the brochure, it offers soft stop, brake drying, predictive brake priming. plus more precise control of braking pressure at each wheel based on vehicle dynamics.

basically, for the US, either the car has this electrohydraulic braking system, or it has just a normal hydraulic braking system with ABS.

vtec26

I recall nothing in the manual about hold or stop. We have a steep driveway and when I am stopped on the driveway in drive, the car rolls backward if I do not apply gas or brakes. So I would guess there is no SBC Hold in US cars.

All I know is that SBC irritates me because if I'm driving down the street at 45mph, and the light turns yellow, I tend to move my foot off the gas quickly and begin to apply the brakes smoothly. in normal cars, this will be a very linear slowing process. With the e320 we have, the car thinks it's an emergency situation because of the speed and the speed with wich my foot came off the acclerator so the instant I touch the brakes, it applies them pretty firmly (i don't need a machine to do this for me). So then, this braking exercise becomes a grab, release, and grab again cycle because when it grabs, i release the brakes a little, but then the car seems to think everything is ok and all of a sudden the brake force is less than what i anticipated and i'm heading quicker towards the red light. I would guess all of this is caused by the BAS that was mentioned? Whatever it is, the computer way too sensitive in activating it.

glojo

Oslo has given an excellent definition of both braking systems that are fitted on European\British E-class Mercedes-Benz. Namely SBC and BAS.

Reading all the replies coming in from the US it appears that he is right in saying that US vehicles have a very cut down version of SBC. (No SBC Hold or SBC Stop)

I know that there are US Police Officers that frequent this forum, and I wonder if there is any law enforcement reason why the full SBC is not fitted?

Or is it MBUSA making decisions on what they want fitted to imported vehicles??

John

Double Eagle

My first, pre Nav E-500 had "touchy", overly sensitive brakes with a poor throttle/brake interconnect. You couldn't left foot brake, even at slow speeds without cutting off the power. I complained about this immediately after delivery and others on this board also complained. My Nav-Replacement delivered in August 2003 with SBC does not have these problems. I believe there is a software mod to improve throttle brake interaction at low speed so you might ask your dealer about that. We are now very happy with the brakes in our SBC equipped E. They are not overly sensitive and have much better pedal feel at all speeds. In panic stops, they still react fast but not for normal driving around town or on freeways.

Barry45RPM

I didn't know the difference between the two. Maybe MB is making SBC a atand alone option?

HELL ONA HARLEY

This whole thread has gotten out of hand because of a "mis" worded thread.... Perhaps if the above quote was originaly posted, more than half of this thread would'nt be wasting band width.... Obviously Euro and U.S cars are different in many ways and one must take that in to account before making "general" statements in thread titles and for U.S members not to jump to conclusions....

Oslo

As a thread starter, I did not know that there was any difference between the US and European SBC. Do you feel that we European should ask for a forum of our own? And when it comes to band width, I thought that was something that belonged to the past. Band width is hardly an issue anymore. The pictures in your signature probably take more band width then the whole thread… (This message is 1.85kb, and you pics are 64Kb....)

Otto

US W211 does not have SBC-stop and SBC-hold, at least my car does not have them which becomes the major complain from my wife because car will roll back when she stops the car on a steep slope. (forget about the "w" mode which is not convenient.)

I don't know how much cost MBUSA can save on them but I may not be able to buy another mb due to this issue. (She prefers buying another bmw becasue there is no roll back worry.)

If SBC-stop and SBC-hold are expensive (I doubt), MBUSA can provide them as options, at least, give US customers a chance to have full set of SBC.

HELL ONA HARLEY

The reference to "band width" was only a figure of speech... I'm only trying to point out that the original title of the thread was misleading and obviously confussed many American "E" owners...

No disrespect intended.

glojo

Hi Harley,
Brilliant pictures of your car. I am going to have to try and put a picture onto my signature. (I miss seeing Oslo's nice S211 picture)

Regards,
John

Oslo

It's back

nyca

what are the specs on the "new" braking system going into the new S Class, assuming its not SBC (in american or euro flavor)?

glojo

I see your vehicle faces to the left (lhd) and mine obviously faces to the right (rhd)

I am definitely going to buy some Meguiar's car polish. (I bet Jim is looking forward to our trip to Texas )

Bye for now
John

Oslo

According to my aources, the new S-Class (W221) and the new M-Class (W164) will have brake system developed by Conti-Teves. MB claims that the new system will be equal to, or better then, the SBC and will also have the Hold-feature. The SBC system that we see on the E-class is developed and produced by Bosch.

10000_lakes

By Oslo:

Perhaps that is the real issue here. Lessoning a dependence on Bosch after all of the quality problems they had on earlier mb systems.

LUCKY

My advisor said this is from SBC, he said there are some TSBs for 2003 to fix this problem but not 2004. He adivsed me to wait


====================================

E320 04, Navigation system, HK sound

Kar don

not really in my dreams
http://www.members.tripod.com/stevejen0/smartbrakes.htm

Petmerctech

Who didn't see the end of SBC coming? I sure did, what with all it's quirks and complexity. It's an answer to questions nobody asked. I'm even surprised that MB introduced SBC in lawsuit happy USA. I, for one, am happy to see it go. It's neat technology, yes, but it causes more problems than it solves. Maybe if MB did more R&D on the system, it would be more popular. The system was rushed to the market, which pretty much sums up the W211. They didn't do enough testing and R&D, so now countless DTBs and flash updates of the car's computers have to be performed by dealers.

Look around the W211. The whole car is all about gadgets, and it's the failing of these gadgets and computer software glitches that has caused MB's reliability rating to be so low. What is it with MB's fascination of gadgets, anyway? They take a simple concept and make it complicated. I pity the person who wants to maintain a W211 ten years from now, when it's out of warranty. Just imagine the cost of parts and diagnosing problems. Even worse, imagine someone trying to maintain an R230, what with all the proprietary software and equipment that only an MB dealer will have.

On a related topic, it's the same with FSS+. When I first saw it, all I could say was why. Why make things so complicated? It's just totally unnecessary? And to think that was the future of FSS? Whose bright idea was that? It's no surprise that they are doing away with FSS completely now. And now that they have, what was the point of FSS+ anyway? MB needs to tone down on the gadgets and start focusing on the basics.

glojo

I respect your opinion, but having read the complaints it seems they are mainly US based. There have been numerous posts complementing this excellent system.

From what Oslo has wrote it appears that it is only the excellent European version that is being withdrawn. Hopefully Mercedes-Benz will have a replacement system that might be even better than what we have at present. If not then I think they are wrong to remove the SBC Hold option.

It is excellent when parked on a steep, down sloping hill and then being able to reverse up it without any fuss worry, or rolling forward.

Regards,
John

Barry45RPM

The gadgets are why people in the USA buy a luxury car. Cutting edge (that works) is where its at. If all you want is to get back to basics a Mercury Grand Marquis is all you need. They are comfortable, last forever in fleet use and as Cop cars, Taxis, etc. Thats what they are...rock solid dependable American Iron. A perfect example of a Japanese version of this would be the Toyota Avalon. (Simple, comfortable DEPENDABLE as the sun, and...boring.)

But, This is not what Americans want in a Luxury car. I do agree that the 211 might have been rushed a little, but thats probably because the previous generation was not as good looking as ITS predecessor or its successor (the W211). .. and not as well equipped as the competition. And yes the Germans do seem to over-engineer things a bit (a cup-holder made of 1,000 articulated parts in a console which houses electronics under it?)

But cutting edge is where the market is looking for right now..Wood trimmed wheel, great Nav/Stereos, Satellite Radio (or TV in Europe), and beautiful, exciting looks and performance... Its not all about longevity anymore. Although having a car that rides as good as the day you bought it, years later is the benefit that NO OTHER Luxury car can give to its owners. Hence, the cost of the car.

Yes, M-B does need to be sure all the gizmos & gadgets work all the time, everytime. .. but this is a market trend that they are not used to. Their buisness mentality has always been that they know best what a car should be. The truth of the matter is "The final inspector is the customer". When they accept this, they will then return to number 1. I think they are waking up.

BudC

Cutting edge to me has a different meaning. Alusil cylinder liners, spin forged crankshafts, rail injection, real safety features, seats designed to be comfortable for hours on end, MB-Tex, etc, etc, etc.

Yeah, I know that Americans are more concerned about cup holders than real automotive advancement.

BTW, that Mercury Marquis has the same fuel tank as the Ford Crown Vic which has been burning civilians and cops alive for years. I suppose if the doors didn't jam in accidents, more people would survive accidents in Ford products.

Barry45RPM

How many of them (Grand Marquis) on the road last 10 years VS how many injuries? While if you lost someone you loved in one, its tragic, the fact is those numbers are statiscally insignificant to big buisness, even losing an occaisional lawsuit. Look at the cr@p Firestone has put on the road in the last 15 years, not only are they still in business, but running warm & fuzzy commercials on TV too!
What you say is true for the technically savvy. Most drivers want good lookers that do tricks. Its a dollar volume game & volume determines who survives & who departs.

HELL ONA HARLEY

MB and other auto makers alike have to develop these technologies "gadgets" to stay alive in such a tight market. These are what make your car stand out from the rest. Granted, it would be a beautiful world if everything worked perfectly first time around but unfortunatly we know this just doesn't happen... As time goes on these will be worked out and technology will continue to move forward and push the auto makers to adapt it... I could just hear folks ( if they thought like you) way back when as they developed the first electric starter motor... "its so much more reliable to crank the handle to start my car"..... Or how about the introduction of fuel injection, anti-lock brakes, Air conditioners, electric windows, electric seats, sun roofs, automatic trunk openers... This list can go for ever and all of these systems are unnecessary to operate a car but I bet you could'nt sell one car without most installed... Brake by wire, steer by wire, automotive computer systems, fiber optics, etc are here to stay. Granted, they may change as they improve but their going no place. I remember when ABS was the big thing and only "high end" cars were equipted with it. Now its very common and nearly every car has it...

My point is these are advancements (gadgets when first introduced) and yes some will work better than others, but all will eventually make the driving experience better. Keeping these cars simple will never fly with the buying public... Most folks love their gadgets and so do I...

B.T.W... My 2004 e500 has been absolutly flawless and the best driving experience hands down....The brakes are awesome and I'm extreamly happy with them and their performance as the whole car has exceded my expectations.... As it stands today I will choose to be a Mercedes customer for life...So please don't pity me...

Petmerctech

Granted everything is nice and easy during the time you car is under warranty. It's just a inconvenience at most right now when something breaks or doesn't work on your car, but you'll feel differently when your car is out of warranty and you'll have to pay with your own money for repairs. Of course, most luxury car owners would probably trade in for the lastest models, but for the few that get attached to their car, the costs of repairs will be painful when it's out of warranty. Also, the reliability track record so far for the 211 isn't the best, and I wonder how it will fare when the car is closing in on 100,000 miles, especially the electronics on the car.