The end of SBC
#26
Originally posted by DaCeptak0n
I haven't been able to conduct the SBC hold and stop feature and seem pretty lost on this discussion. I just know that there is a big vibration for aboout 3-5 seconds and then goes away and comes on sporadically. I told my salesman about ti and he said they'll fix it come time for my service..
I haven't been able to conduct the SBC hold and stop feature and seem pretty lost on this discussion. I just know that there is a big vibration for aboout 3-5 seconds and then goes away and comes on sporadically. I told my salesman about ti and he said they'll fix it come time for my service..
Install pulsation damper for SBC - Noisy brake pump.
or;
P-B-42.10/33 - Replace brake disks - Front wheel brake shudder during braking.
I got this Info from this forum.
#27
Originally posted by Oslo
Fastbuck
I still think we are talking about two different systems. The European SBC with Hold and Stop is not delivered on US cars as far as I know. And its the European SBC system they will drop. Can someone with a US car confirm that they have SBC Stop and Hold?
Fastbuck
I still think we are talking about two different systems. The European SBC with Hold and Stop is not delivered on US cars as far as I know. And its the European SBC system they will drop. Can someone with a US car confirm that they have SBC Stop and Hold?
for the US, SBC defines an electrohydraulic braking system. from the brochure, it offers soft stop, brake drying, predictive brake priming. plus more precise control of braking pressure at each wheel based on vehicle dynamics.
basically, for the US, either the car has this electrohydraulic braking system, or it has just a normal hydraulic braking system with ABS.
#28
Originally posted by glojo
Can our US members just leave their vehicle in drive, on a slope without it rolling backwards? (without either applying either the footbrake, or handbrake). SBC H will prevent this movement.
Thanks for the information.
John
Can our US members just leave their vehicle in drive, on a slope without it rolling backwards? (without either applying either the footbrake, or handbrake). SBC H will prevent this movement.
Thanks for the information.
John
All I know is that SBC irritates me because if I'm driving down the street at 45mph, and the light turns yellow, I tend to move my foot off the gas quickly and begin to apply the brakes smoothly. in normal cars, this will be a very linear slowing process. With the e320 we have, the car thinks it's an emergency situation because of the speed and the speed with wich my foot came off the acclerator so the instant I touch the brakes, it applies them pretty firmly (i don't need a machine to do this for me). So then, this braking exercise becomes a grab, release, and grab again cycle because when it grabs, i release the brakes a little, but then the car seems to think everything is ok and all of a sudden the brake force is less than what i anticipated and i'm heading quicker towards the red light. I would guess all of this is caused by the BAS that was mentioned? Whatever it is, the computer way too sensitive in activating it.
#29
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally posted by nyca
but these two features alone are not SBC.
but these two features alone are not SBC.
Reading all the replies coming in from the US it appears that he is right in saying that US vehicles have a very cut down version of SBC. (No SBC Hold or SBC Stop)
I know that there are US Police Officers that frequent this forum, and I wonder if there is any law enforcement reason why the full SBC is not fitted?
Or is it MBUSA making decisions on what they want fitted to imported vehicles??
John
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: San Clemente, CA
Posts: 304
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2003 E-500
My first, pre Nav E-500 had "touchy", overly sensitive brakes with a poor throttle/brake interconnect. You couldn't left foot brake, even at slow speeds without cutting off the power. I complained about this immediately after delivery and others on this board also complained. My Nav-Replacement delivered in August 2003 with SBC does not have these problems. I believe there is a software mod to improve throttle brake interaction at low speed so you might ask your dealer about that. We are now very happy with the brakes in our SBC equipped E. They are not overly sensitive and have much better pedal feel at all speeds. In panic stops, they still react fast but not for normal driving around town or on freeways.
#32
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Posts: 1,439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally posted by Oslo
Fastbuck
The European SBC with Hold and Stop is not delivered on US cars as far as I know. And its the European SBC system they will drop.
Fastbuck
The European SBC with Hold and Stop is not delivered on US cars as far as I know. And its the European SBC system they will drop.
This whole thread has gotten out of hand because of a "mis" worded thread.... Perhaps if the above quote was originaly posted, more than half of this thread would'nt be wasting band width.... Obviously Euro and U.S cars are different in many ways and one must take that in to account before making "general" statements in thread titles and for U.S members not to jump to conclusions....
#33
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Oslo - Norway
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
This whole thread has gotten out of hand because of a "mis" worded thread.... Perhaps if the above quote was originaly posted, more than half of this thread would'nt be wasting band width.... Obviously Euro and U.S cars are different in many ways and one must take that in to account before making "general" statements in thread titles and for U.S members not to jump to conclusions....
This whole thread has gotten out of hand because of a "mis" worded thread.... Perhaps if the above quote was originaly posted, more than half of this thread would'nt be wasting band width.... Obviously Euro and U.S cars are different in many ways and one must take that in to account before making "general" statements in thread titles and for U.S members not to jump to conclusions....
![Wink](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Last edited by Oslo; 04-25-2004 at 12:40 PM.
#34
Super Member
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: New Jersey, USA
Posts: 636
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
W211 & Q7
US W211 does not have SBC-stop and SBC-hold, at least my car does not have them which becomes the major complain from my wife because car will roll back when she stops the car on a steep slope. (forget about the "w" mode which is not convenient.)
I don't know how much cost MBUSA can save on them but I may not be able to buy another mb due to this issue. (She prefers buying another bmw becasue there is no roll back worry.)
If SBC-stop and SBC-hold are expensive (I doubt), MBUSA can provide them as options, at least, give US customers a chance to have full set of SBC.
I don't know how much cost MBUSA can save on them but I may not be able to buy another mb due to this issue. (She prefers buying another bmw becasue there is no roll back worry.)
If SBC-stop and SBC-hold are expensive (I doubt), MBUSA can provide them as options, at least, give US customers a chance to have full set of SBC.
#35
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Posts: 1,439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally posted by Oslo
As a thread starter, I did not know that there was any difference between the US and European SBC. Do you feel that we European should ask for a forum of our own? And when it comes to band width, I thought that was something that belonged to the past. Band width is hardly an issue anymore. The pictures in your signature probably take more band width then the whole thread…
(This message is 1.85kb, and you pics are 64Kb....)
As a thread starter, I did not know that there was any difference between the US and European SBC. Do you feel that we European should ask for a forum of our own? And when it comes to band width, I thought that was something that belonged to the past. Band width is hardly an issue anymore. The pictures in your signature probably take more band width then the whole thread…
![Wink](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
No disrespect intended.
#36
MBWorld Fanatic!
Hi Harley,
Brilliant pictures of your car. I am going to have to try and put a picture onto my signature. (I miss seeing Oslo's nice S211 picture)
Regards,
John
Brilliant pictures of your car. I am going to have to try and put a picture onto my signature. (I miss seeing Oslo's nice S211 picture)
Regards,
John
#39
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally posted by Oslo
It's back
It's back
![Wink](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
I am definitely going to buy some Meguiar's car polish. (I bet Jim is looking forward to our trip to Texas
![Wink](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
Bye for now
John
#40
Super Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Oslo - Norway
Posts: 698
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by nyca
what are the specs on the "new" braking system going into the new S Class, assuming its not SBC (in american or euro flavor)?
what are the specs on the "new" braking system going into the new S Class, assuming its not SBC (in american or euro flavor)?
#41
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2016 E400 4-Matic Coupe, 2002 Chev 2500 HD Crew, 1983 Porsche 911SC,
bosch vs. other vendors...
By Oslo:
Perhaps that is the real issue here. Lessoning a dependence on Bosch after all of the quality problems they had on earlier mb systems.
According to my aources, the new S-Class (W221) and the new M-Class (W164) will have brake system developed by Conti-Teves. MB claims that the new system will be equal to, or better then, the SBC and will also have the Hold-feature. The SBC system that we see on the E-class is developed and produced by Bosch.
#42
Originally posted by DaCeptak0n
I haven't been able to conduct the SBC hold and stop feature and seem pretty lost on this discussion. I just know that there is a big vibration for aboout 3-5 seconds and then goes away and comes on sporadically. I told my salesman about ti and he said they'll fix it come time for my service..
I haven't been able to conduct the SBC hold and stop feature and seem pretty lost on this discussion. I just know that there is a big vibration for aboout 3-5 seconds and then goes away and comes on sporadically. I told my salesman about ti and he said they'll fix it come time for my service..
My advisor said this is from SBC, he said there are some TSBs for 2003 to fix this problem but not 2004. He adivsed me to wait
====================================
E320 04, Navigation system, HK sound
#43
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: GMT -8 hours
Posts: 5,640
Likes: 0
Received 11 Likes
on
9 Posts
Mercedes-Benz
Originally posted by Fastbuck
The brakes on my 2004 E320CDI are perfect. I for one would miss SBC Hold and SBC Stop. I think they're great features.
As for costing $150 per car... in your dreams. Have alook under your hood at the braking system control components.
The brakes on my 2004 E320CDI are perfect. I for one would miss SBC Hold and SBC Stop. I think they're great features.
As for costing $150 per car... in your dreams. Have alook under your hood at the braking system control components.
http://www.members.tripod.com/stevejen0/smartbrakes.htm
#44
Who didn't see the end of SBC coming? I sure did, what with all it's quirks and complexity. It's an answer to questions nobody asked. I'm even surprised that MB introduced SBC in lawsuit happy USA. I, for one, am happy to see it go. It's neat technology, yes, but it causes more problems than it solves. Maybe if MB did more R&D on the system, it would be more popular. The system was rushed to the market, which pretty much sums up the W211. They didn't do enough testing and R&D, so now countless DTBs and flash updates of the car's computers have to be performed by dealers.
Look around the W211. The whole car is all about gadgets, and it's the failing of these gadgets and computer software glitches that has caused MB's reliability rating to be so low. What is it with MB's fascination of gadgets, anyway? They take a simple concept and make it complicated. I pity the person who wants to maintain a W211 ten years from now, when it's out of warranty. Just imagine the cost of parts and diagnosing problems. Even worse, imagine someone trying to maintain an R230, what with all the proprietary software and equipment that only an MB dealer will have.
On a related topic, it's the same with FSS+. When I first saw it, all I could say was why. Why make things so complicated? It's just totally unnecessary? And to think that was the future of FSS? Whose bright idea was that? It's no surprise that they are doing away with FSS completely now. And now that they have, what was the point of FSS+ anyway? MB needs to tone down on the gadgets and start focusing on the basics.
Look around the W211. The whole car is all about gadgets, and it's the failing of these gadgets and computer software glitches that has caused MB's reliability rating to be so low. What is it with MB's fascination of gadgets, anyway? They take a simple concept and make it complicated. I pity the person who wants to maintain a W211 ten years from now, when it's out of warranty. Just imagine the cost of parts and diagnosing problems. Even worse, imagine someone trying to maintain an R230, what with all the proprietary software and equipment that only an MB dealer will have.
On a related topic, it's the same with FSS+. When I first saw it, all I could say was why. Why make things so complicated? It's just totally unnecessary? And to think that was the future of FSS? Whose bright idea was that? It's no surprise that they are doing away with FSS completely now. And now that they have, what was the point of FSS+ anyway? MB needs to tone down on the gadgets and start focusing on the basics.
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
Originally posted by Petmerctech
Who didn't see the end of SBC coming? I sure did, what with all it's quirks and complexity. It's an answer to questions nobody asked. I'm even surprised that MB introduced SBC in lawsuit happy USA. I, for one, am happy to see it go.
Who didn't see the end of SBC coming? I sure did, what with all it's quirks and complexity. It's an answer to questions nobody asked. I'm even surprised that MB introduced SBC in lawsuit happy USA. I, for one, am happy to see it go.
From what Oslo has wrote it appears that it is only the excellent European version that is being withdrawn. Hopefully Mercedes-Benz will have a replacement system that might be even better than what we have at present. If not then I think they are wrong to remove the SBC Hold option.
It is excellent when parked on a steep, down sloping hill and then being able to reverse up it without any fuss worry, or rolling forward.
Regards,
John
#46
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale Area, USA
Posts: 5,017
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes
on
15 Posts
2015 ML 350
With All Due Respect
The gadgets are why people in the USA buy a luxury car. Cutting edge (that works) is where its at. If all you want is to get back to basics a Mercury Grand Marquis is all you need. They are comfortable, last forever in fleet use and as Cop cars, Taxis, etc. Thats what they are...rock solid dependable American Iron. A perfect example of a Japanese version of this would be the Toyota Avalon. (Simple, comfortable DEPENDABLE as the sun, and...boring.)
But, This is not what Americans want in a Luxury car. I do agree that the 211 might have been rushed a little, but thats probably because the previous generation was not as good looking as ITS predecessor or its successor (the W211). .. and not as well equipped as the competition. And yes the Germans do seem to over-engineer things a bit (a cup-holder made of 1,000 articulated parts in a console which houses electronics under it?)
But cutting edge is where the market is looking for right now..Wood trimmed wheel, great Nav/Stereos, Satellite Radio (or TV in Europe), and beautiful, exciting looks and performance... Its not all about longevity anymore. Although having a car that rides as good as the day you bought it, years later is the benefit that NO OTHER Luxury car can give to its owners. Hence, the cost of the car.
Yes, M-B does need to be sure all the gizmos & gadgets work all the time, everytime. .. but this is a market trend that they are not used to. Their buisness mentality has always been that they know best what a car should be. The truth of the matter is "The final inspector is the customer". When they accept this, they will then return to number 1. I think they are waking up.
But, This is not what Americans want in a Luxury car. I do agree that the 211 might have been rushed a little, but thats probably because the previous generation was not as good looking as ITS predecessor or its successor (the W211). .. and not as well equipped as the competition. And yes the Germans do seem to over-engineer things a bit (a cup-holder made of 1,000 articulated parts in a console which houses electronics under it?)
But cutting edge is where the market is looking for right now..Wood trimmed wheel, great Nav/Stereos, Satellite Radio (or TV in Europe), and beautiful, exciting looks and performance... Its not all about longevity anymore. Although having a car that rides as good as the day you bought it, years later is the benefit that NO OTHER Luxury car can give to its owners. Hence, the cost of the car.
Yes, M-B does need to be sure all the gizmos & gadgets work all the time, everytime. .. but this is a market trend that they are not used to. Their buisness mentality has always been that they know best what a car should be. The truth of the matter is "The final inspector is the customer". When they accept this, they will then return to number 1. I think they are waking up.
Last edited by Barry45RPM; 04-29-2004 at 12:18 PM.
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
Posts: 1,794
Likes: 0
Received 3 Likes
on
2 Posts
2011 E550, 2013 GLK
Cutting edge to me has a different meaning. Alusil cylinder liners, spin forged crankshafts, rail injection, real safety features, seats designed to be comfortable for hours on end, MB-Tex, etc, etc, etc.
Yeah, I know that Americans are more concerned about cup holders than real automotive advancement.
BTW, that Mercury Marquis has the same fuel tank as the Ford Crown Vic which has been burning civilians and cops alive for years. I suppose if the doors didn't jam in accidents, more people would survive accidents in Ford products.
Yeah, I know that Americans are more concerned about cup holders than real automotive advancement.
BTW, that Mercury Marquis has the same fuel tank as the Ford Crown Vic which has been burning civilians and cops alive for years. I suppose if the doors didn't jam in accidents, more people would survive accidents in Ford products.
#48
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Ft. Lauderdale Area, USA
Posts: 5,017
Likes: 0
Received 15 Likes
on
15 Posts
2015 ML 350
How many of them (Grand Marquis) on the road last 10 years VS how many injuries? While if you lost someone you loved in one, its tragic, the fact is those numbers are statiscally insignificant to big buisness, even losing an occaisional lawsuit. Look at the cr@p Firestone has put on the road in the last 15 years, not only are they still in business, but running warm & fuzzy commercials on TV too!
What you say is true for the technically savvy. Most drivers want good lookers that do tricks. Its a dollar volume game & volume determines who survives & who departs.
What you say is true for the technically savvy. Most drivers want good lookers that do tricks. Its a dollar volume game & volume determines who survives & who departs.
#49
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Posts: 1,439
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally posted by Petmerctech
Who didn't see the end of SBC coming? I sure did, what with all it's quirks and complexity. It's an answer to questions nobody asked. I'm even surprised that MB introduced SBC in lawsuit happy USA. I, for one, am happy to see it go. It's neat technology, yes, but it causes more problems than it solves. Maybe if MB did more R&D on the system, it would be more popular. The system was rushed to the market, which pretty much sums up the W211. They didn't do enough testing and R&D, so now countless DTBs and flash updates of the car's computers have to be performed by dealers.
Look around the W211. The whole car is all about gadgets, and it's the failing of these gadgets and computer software glitches that has caused MB's reliability rating to be so low. What is it with MB's fascination of gadgets, anyway? They take a simple concept and make it complicated. I pity the person who wants to maintain a W211 ten years from now, when it's out of warranty. Just imagine the cost of parts and diagnosing problems. Even worse, imagine someone trying to maintain an R230, what with all the proprietary software and equipment that only an MB dealer will have.
On a related topic, it's the same with FSS+. When I first saw it, all I could say was why. Why make things so complicated? It's just totally unnecessary? And to think that was the future of FSS? Whose bright idea was that? It's no surprise that they are doing away with FSS completely now. And now that they have, what was the point of FSS+ anyway? MB needs to tone down on the gadgets and start focusing on the basics.
Who didn't see the end of SBC coming? I sure did, what with all it's quirks and complexity. It's an answer to questions nobody asked. I'm even surprised that MB introduced SBC in lawsuit happy USA. I, for one, am happy to see it go. It's neat technology, yes, but it causes more problems than it solves. Maybe if MB did more R&D on the system, it would be more popular. The system was rushed to the market, which pretty much sums up the W211. They didn't do enough testing and R&D, so now countless DTBs and flash updates of the car's computers have to be performed by dealers.
Look around the W211. The whole car is all about gadgets, and it's the failing of these gadgets and computer software glitches that has caused MB's reliability rating to be so low. What is it with MB's fascination of gadgets, anyway? They take a simple concept and make it complicated. I pity the person who wants to maintain a W211 ten years from now, when it's out of warranty. Just imagine the cost of parts and diagnosing problems. Even worse, imagine someone trying to maintain an R230, what with all the proprietary software and equipment that only an MB dealer will have.
On a related topic, it's the same with FSS+. When I first saw it, all I could say was why. Why make things so complicated? It's just totally unnecessary? And to think that was the future of FSS? Whose bright idea was that? It's no surprise that they are doing away with FSS completely now. And now that they have, what was the point of FSS+ anyway? MB needs to tone down on the gadgets and start focusing on the basics.
MB and other auto makers alike have to develop these technologies "gadgets" to stay alive in such a tight market. These are what make your car stand out from the rest. Granted, it would be a beautiful world if everything worked perfectly first time around but unfortunatly we know this just doesn't happen... As time goes on these will be worked out and technology will continue to move forward and push the auto makers to adapt it... I could just hear folks ( if they thought like you) way back when as they developed the first electric starter motor... "its so much more reliable to crank the handle to start my car"..... Or how about the introduction of fuel injection, anti-lock brakes, Air conditioners, electric windows, electric seats, sun roofs, automatic trunk openers... This list can go for ever and all of these systems are unnecessary to operate a car but I bet you could'nt sell one car without most installed... Brake by wire, steer by wire, automotive computer systems, fiber optics, etc are here to stay. Granted, they may change as they improve but their going no place. I remember when ABS was the big thing and only "high end" cars were equipted with it. Now its very common and nearly every car has it...
My point is these are advancements (gadgets when first introduced) and yes some will work better than others, but all will eventually make the driving experience better. Keeping these cars simple will never fly with the buying public... Most folks love their gadgets and so do I...
B.T.W... My 2004 e500 has been absolutly flawless and the best driving experience hands down....The brakes are awesome and I'm extreamly happy with them and their performance as the whole car has exceded my expectations.... As it stands today I will choose to be a Mercedes customer for life...So please don't pity me...
#50
Granted everything is nice and easy during the time you car is under warranty. It's just a inconvenience at most right now when something breaks or doesn't work on your car, but you'll feel differently when your car is out of warranty and you'll have to pay with your own money for repairs. Of course, most luxury car owners would probably trade in for the lastest models, but for the few that get attached to their car, the costs of repairs will be painful when it's out of warranty. Also, the reliability track record so far for the 211 isn't the best, and I wonder how it will fare when the car is closing in on 100,000 miles, especially the electronics on the car.