Curiousity: What's the point of the wagon?
08-04-2004, 03:51 PM
#26
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2000 W210 E55->2003 R230 SL500->2004 W211 E55->2007 997TT+2007 E63->2010 GLK350->2012 E550 4matic
Originally Posted by anthem
Really depends on your own ability here. Also, is this psychological or actual difficulty ? I agree with you against a sedan, but the wagon is about the same as most SUV's. Actually the MB wagon is LONGER than an ML. Granted that most SUV's are shorter heightwise, but that usually doesn't factor into difficulty to park...
... You have to use both sides of the equation here. There are SOME SUV's that are not safe due to a tendency to flip over. Most SUV's in the MB class and up are more than safe enough. Will they tip over more so than a sedan, no doubt about it. But you should offset that by my SUV's generally tend to be safer than sedans when in an accident with other cars. Many people quote that SUV's have a tendency to be in more fatal accidents than others - but they fail to point out that in that biased survey, that it frequently is the passengers in the other car, not the heavy suv. Not the best scenario to be in, but if you're going to play the safety car, look at all angles.
Also, if you hit a curb at enough speeds to turn over an SUV, your sedan won't be far off the mark hitting the same curb. ..
You should also include a few other items - its generally safer to be higher up in the road to see ahead of other cars. If the world was ideal, then there might not be any higher cars that you would need to see over, but that obviously isn't the case.
... You have to use both sides of the equation here. There are SOME SUV's that are not safe due to a tendency to flip over. Most SUV's in the MB class and up are more than safe enough. Will they tip over more so than a sedan, no doubt about it. But you should offset that by my SUV's generally tend to be safer than sedans when in an accident with other cars. Many people quote that SUV's have a tendency to be in more fatal accidents than others - but they fail to point out that in that biased survey, that it frequently is the passengers in the other car, not the heavy suv. Not the best scenario to be in, but if you're going to play the safety car, look at all angles.
Also, if you hit a curb at enough speeds to turn over an SUV, your sedan won't be far off the mark hitting the same curb. ..
You should also include a few other items - its generally safer to be higher up in the road to see ahead of other cars. If the world was ideal, then there might not be any higher cars that you would need to see over, but that obviously isn't the case.
For loading and unloading, this is where a mini-van truly excels with the sliding doors, beating both SUVs and wagons by a wide margin.
As far as safety is concerned, while I agree it's nice to see the cars ahead, with the SUV due to their generally inferior performance, I find myself having to stay more alert as I have to start braking and accelerating sooner with a smaller window of opportunity to avoid accidents in the first place.
Besides the inferior active safety, I worry that when an SUV flips, which will be more often than a wagon, the change of my passengers getting seriously hurt is much greater.
Agree with you about the ML being safer than most SUVs.
08-05-2004, 10:07 AM
#27
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Somehow this thread disappeared yesterday, but I was able to find it again today.
Anthem, I'm glad you read Keith Bradsher's book (well, at least it sounded like you did). Too bad more SUV owners/lessee haven't, or they'd switch to wagons.
Regarding safety, you seem to dismiss rollover risk entirely, "SUV's are 6-8% more deadly than cars. Strictly related to rollover, not impact related." I guess if you or your family members get killed from a rollover, that's better than if they get killed in an accident with a car in which the other occupants may have had suffered higher fatalities. If you're more likely to die in a SUV because you're more likely to roll over, you're more likely to die. Does it really matter how?
I realize that what you're saying is that an ML is less likely to rollover than, say an Explorer, so when you take rollovers out of the equation, the ML will be safer than a high-end wagon. I'm don't think that's true, because the ML is still more likely to roll over than the high-end wagon. If you want to compare likes to likes, then you need to compare your ML to an E-class wagon, not to a Taurus wagon. If an ML got into an accident with an E-class wagon, the ML probably would fare better, but that's not the only thing that matters. The real question is which is safer overall, which would include rollover accidents and single-vehicle accidents like hitting a tree. And before you dismiss single-vehicle accidents as statistically insignificant, let me point out that according to the NYS DMV, 50% of all vehicle fatalities result from single-vehicle accidents.
As far as trendiness is concerned, if I had to choose between a Taurus wagon and an Explorer, even I would choose the Explorer. I guess I'd install a roll cage, get some decent speed-rated tires, and wear my Snell-rated racing helmet whlile driving it!
Anthem, I'm glad you read Keith Bradsher's book (well, at least it sounded like you did). Too bad more SUV owners/lessee haven't, or they'd switch to wagons.
Regarding safety, you seem to dismiss rollover risk entirely, "SUV's are 6-8% more deadly than cars. Strictly related to rollover, not impact related." I guess if you or your family members get killed from a rollover, that's better than if they get killed in an accident with a car in which the other occupants may have had suffered higher fatalities. If you're more likely to die in a SUV because you're more likely to roll over, you're more likely to die. Does it really matter how?
I realize that what you're saying is that an ML is less likely to rollover than, say an Explorer, so when you take rollovers out of the equation, the ML will be safer than a high-end wagon. I'm don't think that's true, because the ML is still more likely to roll over than the high-end wagon. If you want to compare likes to likes, then you need to compare your ML to an E-class wagon, not to a Taurus wagon. If an ML got into an accident with an E-class wagon, the ML probably would fare better, but that's not the only thing that matters. The real question is which is safer overall, which would include rollover accidents and single-vehicle accidents like hitting a tree. And before you dismiss single-vehicle accidents as statistically insignificant, let me point out that according to the NYS DMV, 50% of all vehicle fatalities result from single-vehicle accidents.
As far as trendiness is concerned, if I had to choose between a Taurus wagon and an Explorer, even I would choose the Explorer. I guess I'd install a roll cage, get some decent speed-rated tires, and wear my Snell-rated racing helmet whlile driving it!
08-05-2004, 09:31 PM
#28
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Oggie. Its not that I'm dismissing rollover risk completely. Its that it's very complex and the data we want isn't really there. The main issue is that rollover issues are prevalent in the SUV world and a lot of them are big risks. There are safe SUV's and there are dangerous ones. The safer ones don't really rollover risks associated with them. Now what we want to do is compare the safer SUV's since that is what we're talking about. Now, yes the E wagon is safer than a taurus, but my guess is that the E wagon doesn't gain as much on the taurus wagon as the ML gains on the rollover risk against a Ford Explorer. . The higher impact area of the SUV is still a big plus for SUV's (especially heavier ones that are pretty stable). So, I believe since the the rollver issue is very large for such a large amount of poorly made SUV's, that the 6-8% is easily overcome (remember we're talking about the much maligned Ford Explorer) here. Let me put it this way - take the safest SUV you can, and take the safest wagon you got (or sedan). My point is that with those two - I'm willing to bet that statistically the SUV will be 'safer' overall than the sedan for the passengers in their respective cars (but not both cars).
Bradsher brings up a lot of points, but a lot of his fatality issue is that SUV's 'cause' a larger number of deaths in the other cars. He has a very valid point and one to consider, but since SUV's aren't going away anytime soon, its difficult to say you're going to put yourself on the other side of that equation. .
Not just the taurus wagon vs the explorer for trendiness, but most people would take a Range Rover or G wagon over an MB or BMW wagon as well in the trendiness category..
Bradsher brings up a lot of points, but a lot of his fatality issue is that SUV's 'cause' a larger number of deaths in the other cars. He has a very valid point and one to consider, but since SUV's aren't going away anytime soon, its difficult to say you're going to put yourself on the other side of that equation. .
Not just the taurus wagon vs the explorer for trendiness, but most people would take a Range Rover or G wagon over an MB or BMW wagon as well in the trendiness category..
08-05-2004, 10:29 PM
#29
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500E -92 and 560SEL -90
In Sweden there are talks of adding taxes to the SUV's because they are becoming to comon... although they are not anywhere near as comon here as in the US.
The reason is that they are a higher danger to other people (both inside and outside cars) in traffic..
They also consume more fuel (=more carbondioxide and pollution).
To me it's pretty understandable because in the big perspective they are completely unnessesary cars.
Why buy a SUV when there are stationwagons??
If everybody was driving around in SUVs there would be NO advantage at all driving a SUV. So it's not the right direction for evolvement.
The only reason I see to drive a SUV is if you often are going off-road. Else they are pointless in the long run and in a bigger perspective.
There are actually alot of stationwagons driven over here by teenagers and people in their 20's. Not just family men.
Mostly mediumsized cars like Audi A4's and Volvo 850's /V70. They are more common as stationwagons than sedans here. They are not considered to be lower status than a sedan. Rather the opposite. Personally I think fx the old Volvo 850 looks better as a stationwagon. Also the Audi A4 looks better in that trim.
The reason is that they are a higher danger to other people (both inside and outside cars) in traffic..
They also consume more fuel (=more carbondioxide and pollution).
To me it's pretty understandable because in the big perspective they are completely unnessesary cars.
Why buy a SUV when there are stationwagons??
If everybody was driving around in SUVs there would be NO advantage at all driving a SUV. So it's not the right direction for evolvement.
The only reason I see to drive a SUV is if you often are going off-road. Else they are pointless in the long run and in a bigger perspective.
There are actually alot of stationwagons driven over here by teenagers and people in their 20's. Not just family men.
Mostly mediumsized cars like Audi A4's and Volvo 850's /V70. They are more common as stationwagons than sedans here. They are not considered to be lower status than a sedan. Rather the opposite. Personally I think fx the old Volvo 850 looks better as a stationwagon. Also the Audi A4 looks better in that trim.
08-06-2004, 09:06 AM
#30
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Henrik, I agree with you as to looks.
I think BMW, MB, Saab and Audi wagons look great, and in some cases, better than their sedan counterparts.
In the US, as Anthem points out, many people would rather drive a SUV than a station wagon. Whether it's the percieved trendiness, false sense of security, higher seating position, or the macho-rugged image, SUVs far outsell the wagon counterparts of the same brand where there is a SUV counterpart.
In the US, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the largest car-buying group is comprised of baby-boomers, whose parents mostly had big, sloppy, bulbous station wagons when they were little kids, and they don't want to be like their parents. My parents never had a station wagon, so I don't have that issue. My wife is one of six kids, so naturally they had one station wagon after the other when she was a child, but she has no problem buying a station wagon. I guess she's in the minority on this issue.
I think BMW, MB, Saab and Audi wagons look great, and in some cases, better than their sedan counterparts.
In the US, as Anthem points out, many people would rather drive a SUV than a station wagon. Whether it's the percieved trendiness, false sense of security, higher seating position, or the macho-rugged image, SUVs far outsell the wagon counterparts of the same brand where there is a SUV counterpart.
In the US, I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that the largest car-buying group is comprised of baby-boomers, whose parents mostly had big, sloppy, bulbous station wagons when they were little kids, and they don't want to be like their parents. My parents never had a station wagon, so I don't have that issue. My wife is one of six kids, so naturally they had one station wagon after the other when she was a child, but she has no problem buying a station wagon. I guess she's in the minority on this issue.
08-06-2004, 08:31 PM
#31
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2008 c350 SG - 2004 c240 Wagon BS
The SUV is dead. -- R.I.P SUV 1984-2004 -- Died at the tender age of 20 years.
In California "no one" buys an SUV anymore.
Wagons are a mad trend right now in the U.S. and will be growing hugely in market share over the next few years.
The Dodge Magnum Hemi Wagon makes wagons cool again. Like Surf Woodies.
The New Volvo V50 wagon and the Mazda 6 are hitting the streets.
Freaking Wagons are bustin' out.
In California "no one" buys an SUV anymore.
Wagons are a mad trend right now in the U.S. and will be growing hugely in market share over the next few years.
The Dodge Magnum Hemi Wagon makes wagons cool again. Like Surf Woodies.
The New Volvo V50 wagon and the Mazda 6 are hitting the streets.
Freaking Wagons are bustin' out.
08-09-2004, 08:52 PM
#32
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ML 500 Sport
I am one of those statistics...I have ordred a Magnum RT and will be trading in my ML500...couldn't be happier...I agree that you are going to see the trend reverse over the next few years, people will be moving more and more out of SUVs into the new cross over sport wagons...I grew up driving station wagons had a ball with them...party cars!...90 % of the peope driving SUVs don't need them...most of them a trash to drive on the road..compared to a wagon...
the Magnum RT is a sweet car...S class size...E class transmission, suspension and electronics, Detroit Hemi iron 340Hp 390 ft/ibs..a great driver... a no frills, well built car. The DC marriage is starting to pay off finally with the new LX platform.
If MB imported the E55 Estate I would probably go with it....but since they don't the Magnum will hold me until they come out with the R class AMG.
the Magnum RT is a sweet car...S class size...E class transmission, suspension and electronics, Detroit Hemi iron 340Hp 390 ft/ibs..a great driver... a no frills, well built car. The DC marriage is starting to pay off finally with the new LX platform.
If MB imported the E55 Estate I would probably go with it....but since they don't the Magnum will hold me until they come out with the R class AMG.
Last edited by jco-amg; 08-09-2004 at 08:56 PM.
08-10-2004, 09:06 PM
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'05 E500 4-Matic Wagon
So here's my two cents. I had a 2002 ML500. Now I've got the 500 wagon. About the only thing I liked about the ML were the cup holders. Bumpy ride (i.e. truck), very skimpy on convenience and creature comforts. Really not Benz-like at all. And those of you who say 90% of SUV owners don't need it are right as far as I'm concered. I was in the 90%.
Nothing I've driven compares to this wagon. Nothing! You've got to drive it to understand. Good luck.
Nothing I've driven compares to this wagon. Nothing! You've got to drive it to understand. Good luck.
08-19-2004, 01:43 AM
#34
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The point of the E class wagon is that it has much more cargo room which allows you to put stuff in it that won't fit in an ML. Plus, just about every E class estate has better build quality than the ML.
A wagon has more stealth. This comes in handy when you don't want to be noticed. MB E class sedans are very common. Perhaps that is why the CLS is coming out.
An E class Estate has better handling than the ML and most cross-over suvs.
Some cars look better as wagons than sedans, imo.
I think the Audi RS6 Avant looks a lot better than the rounded sedan. The aluminum-finish roof rails add a nice touch. I hope Audi doesn't sell out like the other Germans and make a cross over suv.
The Dodge Magnum RT also looks better than the Chrysler 300C. (The Chrysler 300 will be sold in Europe as a sedan and a wagon along with the Chrysler Viper). The Chrysler 300 seems to be the new hip car and is attracting some tasteless mods. Check out cardomain.com
Back in January, I had a feeling that this was the return of the station wagon in the USA. The new Dodge Magnum has done to wagons what the Mini Cooper has done to hatchbacks here. The Magnum looks like a HOT ROD!
Chrysler just came out with the 300C SRT-8 with 425 hp and so a Dodge version might come soon.
An MB ML will roll over before an E class estate rolls over. Wagons have a lower center of gravity, usually weigh less, and have better aerodynamics.
I really coud go on...
A wagon has more stealth. This comes in handy when you don't want to be noticed. MB E class sedans are very common. Perhaps that is why the CLS is coming out.
An E class Estate has better handling than the ML and most cross-over suvs.
Some cars look better as wagons than sedans, imo.
I think the Audi RS6 Avant looks a lot better than the rounded sedan. The aluminum-finish roof rails add a nice touch. I hope Audi doesn't sell out like the other Germans and make a cross over suv.
The Dodge Magnum RT also looks better than the Chrysler 300C. (The Chrysler 300 will be sold in Europe as a sedan and a wagon along with the Chrysler Viper). The Chrysler 300 seems to be the new hip car and is attracting some tasteless mods. Check out cardomain.com
Back in January, I had a feeling that this was the return of the station wagon in the USA. The new Dodge Magnum has done to wagons what the Mini Cooper has done to hatchbacks here. The Magnum looks like a HOT ROD!
Chrysler just came out with the 300C SRT-8 with 425 hp and so a Dodge version might come soon.
An MB ML will roll over before an E class estate rolls over. Wagons have a lower center of gravity, usually weigh less, and have better aerodynamics.
I really coud go on...
08-19-2004, 02:40 AM
#36
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wagons usually have less mass than suvs which is safer for pedestrians.
New European pedestrian regulations will greatly affect the styling of European cars from October, 2005.
The ML is arguably the cheapest MB ever made.
New European pedestrian regulations will greatly affect the styling of European cars from October, 2005.
The ML is arguably the cheapest MB ever made.
08-19-2004, 02:42 AM
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2014 C250 sport
Originally Posted by westsidewagon
Hopefully, MB will put the 3.5l 272 hp V-6 from the 05 SLK 350 into the 06 E class.
08-19-2004, 02:44 AM
#38
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I know many young and old people who would rather drive a wagon than an suv.
When was the last time you saw an suv at a track event?
In Europe, wagons are very popular.
2004 is the year of the wagon in America.
When was the last time you saw an suv at a track event?
In Europe, wagons are very popular.
2004 is the year of the wagon in America.
08-19-2004, 02:54 AM
#39
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MB has a huge market share (big wagons) with the E class estate in the USA.
It really bites when someone pulls up in an e class sedan just like yours. W211s sedans will become a dime a dozen just like the W210. The CLS is coming but it doesn't have as much interior room or cargo room as an E class sedan.
It really bites when someone pulls up in an e class sedan just like yours.
This is less likely to happen with an e class wagon, even if it is silver.
It really bites when someone pulls up in an e class sedan just like yours. W211s sedans will become a dime a dozen just like the W210. The CLS is coming but it doesn't have as much interior room or cargo room as an E class sedan.
It really bites when someone pulls up in an e class sedan just like yours.
This is less likely to happen with an e class wagon, even if it is silver.
05-01-2008, 04:58 PM
#41
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2015 ML 350
Before you laugh yourself into a coma, there are people driving vehicles that get better milage than you, and they're wondering how we are gonna get out of our cars when the 212's come out... The 211's aren't gonna be the chick magnets they are now... & $4 a gallon is gonna seem cheap by this time next year!
Last edited by Barry45RPM; 05-01-2008 at 05:01 PM.
05-01-2008, 08:36 PM
#42
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05-01-2008, 08:38 PM
#43
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Before you laugh yourself into a coma, there are people driving vehicles that get better milage than you, and they're wondering how we are gonna get out of our cars when the 212's come out... The 211's aren't gonna be the chick magnets they are now... & $4 a gallon is gonna seem cheap by this time next year!
And, you'll not read this about wagons ...
source = Autoextremist
The SUV hangover gets U-G-L-Y.
Much has been written about the rapidly changing tastes of the American car-buying public over the last six months – as in the exodus away from big SUVs and pickups - but it was hard to anticipate just how dramatic it was going to be, until now. GM announced on Monday that it would cut production schedules at four plants - its full-size pickup truck assembly plants in Pontiac, Mich.; Flint, Mich.; and Oshawa, Ontario; and its full-size SUV assembly plant in Janesville, Wis. – to the tune of around 140,000 units, while costing 3,500 employees their jobs.
Gas prices aren’t helping, of course, but the painful reality is that a lot of American consumers who bought large SUVs at their faddish peak (and who never needed them to begin with) are now bailing out of that segment for good. GM and Ford in particular are struggling with the transition to make more cars and crossovers in order to keep these buyers from abandoning their companies completely, while their dealers are being inundated with used SUVs and big pickups that are piling up daily - and plummeting in value.
I'd expect the E-class wagon with a diesel (please, MBUSA) to get a lot closer to the E sedan than the GL.
05-01-2008, 11:05 PM
#46
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1995 e320 wagon
35 mpg?
I aaume the 35mpg you mention is a diesel??? I'm looking to get rid of our 1995 e320 wagon (bad a/c evaporator) that only gets 24+/- mpg highway (gasoline). Any thoughts about MPG with the newer gasoline wagons... say 2004-2006?
Thanks.
Thanks.
05-02-2008, 03:08 AM
#48
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Just to add my two cents.....
I'm 33, male, with no kids, and I drive the hell out of my E320 wagon. I already went through the SUV phase with the MDX and Ford Explorer, I had a beautiful C230 before the wagon, and I even had a 1995 S420 and now I have this wagon. At first I guess the "stigma" was there but now I just drive and haul whatever I want and could really care less. It took a while for my friends to come around but I think now they understand that I really am that "wagon guy".
I think wagons are trendy in their own, unique, intellectual way, but certainly not picked up on the radar by the mainstream.
I will admit that in an area full of full-size trucks it would be nice to sit higher, but you get over it.
Its a beautifully crafted wagon and it does everything that I demand of it. It may not have the most sport but it makes up for it with the utility!
I'm 33, male, with no kids, and I drive the hell out of my E320 wagon. I already went through the SUV phase with the MDX and Ford Explorer, I had a beautiful C230 before the wagon, and I even had a 1995 S420 and now I have this wagon. At first I guess the "stigma" was there but now I just drive and haul whatever I want and could really care less. It took a while for my friends to come around but I think now they understand that I really am that "wagon guy".
I think wagons are trendy in their own, unique, intellectual way, but certainly not picked up on the radar by the mainstream.
I will admit that in an area full of full-size trucks it would be nice to sit higher, but you get over it.
Its a beautifully crafted wagon and it does everything that I demand of it. It may not have the most sport but it makes up for it with the utility!
05-02-2008, 10:19 AM
#49
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2004 E500 Wagon 4Matic
Love my S211;
Well, I LOVE my wagon. Big step up for me from my previous cars, and I got an amazing deal on it. Given I have 2 kids, a 75lb dog, 4 cats, it is great to have the extra space when needed.
Now take a look at this:
http://www.cwwcardes********/cars/mbtls.html
And tell me that is not a beautiful, beautiful car?
Now take a look at this:
http://www.cwwcardes********/cars/mbtls.html
And tell me that is not a beautiful, beautiful car?
05-02-2008, 10:37 AM
#50
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2015 ML 350
All that said, if you want to drive an MB, there is no true "crossover" weight/size/milage type vehicle, so that just leaves the wagon. Station wagons in general, went "out of style" in the US with the advent of the mini van, and when gas was still reasonably priced, by the SUV. There are many styles & types of "crossover" vehicles available now that still fill the bill better than a station wagon, but they arent an MB, so again, if you want an MB but need some usefull cargo room the compromise is again a wagon.
In other world markets where gas has always been "expensive", wagons have been the choice rather than a van/SUV.
