spectre

Hi folks,

I'm in the market for a sedan and will choose between the new E55 or current M5. I've never personally owned an MB but do have a BMW.

What should I expect? Is this going to be a monstrously fast sedan that soaks up the road ? I suppose I'll answer this when I test drive both cars in a few weeks, but would like your impressions.

I like being in stealth mode so was also wondering what your experiences are with owning such an awesome machine. That is, will I get a lot of gawkers and scratchers ?

How's the maintenance? Do any of you use your E55 as a daily driver?

Sorry, lots of questions. Finally, what's the availability like? Is this a limited production car and will I face a long (>1year) wait ?

Actually one more question. Have any of you had any experience (good or bad) with working with MB in customizing the car (particularly the interior)

Any comments, suggestions would be very helpful

jswedberg

One major difference between the two - The AMG is only available in an automatic, and the M5 is only available as manual.

Typically, AMG cars are more "comfortable" and Ms are more "sporty", although they are both way over the top in both attributes.

oresama99

as stated above, when it comes down to these two cars the essential question is do you want a manual or an automatic? comparing the upcoming E55 to current M5 isn't too fair. both merc and bmw will be upping the ante with the subsequent model iterations.

availability: the M5 will see feb/march '03 as the last build date supposedly. the list is still long for the current M5 as well depending on where you are in the US. plenty of used models around, though. as for the new E55, i bet demand will be strong, esp w/the potential of an attainable 500hp engine!

E55 KEV

These cars are limited prodution. MBZ only made 500+ E55 per year and BMW makes about 2000+ (for 2002) for the US. The next W211 E55 will be a 2004 model and the next M5 will be a 2004 or 2005 model. AMG has increased production of C32 to 1800 so the E55 will likely be more than 500 in 2004. Expect to place an E55 order and wait another year or pay $10k over sticker for in-stock models next year and in 2004.

I have never driven an M5, but it is a tad quicker and a bit harsher than the E55. I like manual tranny but will never buy one. The M5 will have the newer SMG tranny found on the 2002 M3 that is quasi manual, no cluth pedal, with shift buttons and has a auto shift mode when you are lazy.

KnightRider

You are better off waiting for the next M5 to come out to decide between it and W211 E 55, because E39 is a previous generation car compared to W211.
We have never owned a Mercedes before either and were very pleasantly surprised with the car. New E is great and with SL 55´s engine it can only be better.
New M5, which is rumoured to have V10, is further away than new E55 though. Maybe by a year or so.
Current M5 would be discontinued in less than a year if to rely on past data on the way BMW replaces the model ranges. You are better off waiting a bit and buying a new model car (W211 or next M5), aren´t you?
As for M5 vs E55 it depends where you do most of the driving, if in the city then I would definitely go with automatic (E55). Otherwise it´s not a problem changing gears in the M5, it has enough torque. Also if new M5 will be available with SMG transmission, which has fully automatic mode, then it is closer to E55.

W210

Rush to your dealer and put your name down for the W211 AMG E55 ASAP.

karl k

Do you really want 500 HP?

Instead of the E55 AMG you may want to consider the E500 w/ AMG sports package - if offered.

W210

I think the W211 AMG with 470 bhp is of excellent value if it's priced close to the MSPR of the current E-class AMG. After all, it uses the same engine as the SL55 which has proven to be an extremely capable monster.

With the active body control and latest braking technology to go with the extra power, it will make the current generation of M5, E55, CLK55, etc. obsolete!

karl k

Present E55 & CLK55 obsolete?

On the contrary - more desirable, because the curent models are better and more realisticcaly balanced w/drivetrain and matched to current traffic conditions, - unless you are thinking of dragracing...

99 % of E-Class owners simply do NOT care to compete with a Dodge Viper! If you are the 1 %, pls ignore this post.

W210

I beg to differ, I think the ABC/Air-Matic suspension plus the Sensonic brakes on the W211 E55 will make the car much more usable for daily driving compared to the current E55/CLK55.

My biggest shock after extensively driving the R230 SL500 (which has ABC) is that even with 17 inch wheels and average grand touring tires, it already out-handles the W210 E55 which has the aggressive sports suspension/tire setup. The R230 has a more comfortable ride yet it does not have as much body lean when pushed in a corner. Simply put, I can take a corner or an apex much more quickly with full confidence in the R230 (with ABC in sports mode) than the W210 E55. With brake by wire technology, I feel that I have a higher margin of error when braking in a turn as well.

My biggest problem with the W210 E55 is that it could not put its power onto the road and the car is too stiff, it tends to be too easily affected by road irregularities even during daily driving. From my experience with ABC and Sensonic brakes on the R230, I predict the W211 will have a much more user friendly suspension and it will be far more stable when driven leisurely or when pushed.

I guess we'll find out in a year's time!

KnightRider

Quote:

My biggest shock after extensively driving the R230 SL500 (which has ABC) is that even with 17 inch wheels and average grand touring tires, it already out-handles the W210 E55 which has the aggressive sports suspension/tire setup.

On W211 we have sports suspension (not Airmatic) and 245/45 R 17 tyres to compliment it. The handling is excellent, I have never driven/been driven in W210 E 55 AMG or CLK 55 AMG, but the handling IS comparable to E39 M5 in my books. The ride is a bit softer, but thanks to that on rough surfaces it is better planted to the road. So expect A LOT from E 55.
It well may be that R230 is better handling than W210 E 55. Remember that these are 2 different generations and any successor naturally raises the game, but it doesn´t make previous cars obsolete, they are great in their own right.
Is R230 based on W211, does anyone know?
In a recent MotorTrend comparison of MB AMG vs BMW M models, E 55 was worse (slower through handling tests) than BMW's X5 4.6is, which is an SUV. It doesn't make E 55 a bad car, does it?

karl k

W210:

My post above was prompted by the 500 HP engines and in no way intended to take away from the obvious advantage re ABS, stiffer chassis...

Again, 99 % of E-Class owners simply do NOT care to compete with a Dodge
Viper! If you are the 1 % that have the compulsion to compete with the Viper,
love drag-racing with an E-Sedan, -- then pls. ignore this post.

W210

Well, I suppose we all have different definitions on obsolescence. As far as I'm concerned, with the new W211 E55, the W210 E55 becomes obsolete. Well, at least in the sense I cannot find a reason, for roughly the same amount of money, to buy the W210 AMG over the W211 AMG. I guess except for those who are allegic to forced induction perhaps?

I would object to conclude that the X5 4.6is handles better than the W210 E55 based on a set of numbers from MotorTrend. A car's absolute grip in one circumstance measured by one source surely cannot be used to conclude that it's a better handler! It's dangerous to make too much out of magazine tests!

Lucky you, I'm surely looking forward to testing the W211.

karl k

quote:

Originally posted by W210
Well, I suppose we all have different definitions on obsolescence...


As far as I'm concerned, with the new W211 E55, the W210 E55
becomes obsolete.


Wrong.

According to Merriam-Wbster's definition, OBSOLETE, as you are using it, might
have relevance in a decade or two...

1 : no longer in use or no longer useful.

2 : of a kind or style no longer current.

KnightRider

What I mean by previous models not becoming obsolete when new ones come out is that the new model introduction doesn´t make the previous model worse. The previous car stays as good as it was, it may seem outdated design wise externally/internally compared to the successor, less powerful, but it is a good car in itself. It would be great to be able to keep all the good cars, instead of trading them in for a new model, especially if you bought it new originally. What a great collection it would make!
However, on the other hand after much thinking I stick to two opinions, which I believe in now rather firmly, that it is better to buy (if the cars cost more or less the same):
a) a new model with smaller engine than the outgoing one second-hand with more power (for example W211 320 vs. second-hand W210 E 55).
b) a new model one class lower than the previous one second-hand (for example new E vs. previous second-hand S).
Basically I reckon that under any circumstances it is better to buy a new model car for the same amount of money. Sorry, I think my english is a bit confusing in this post :o
As for MotorTrend numbers, I don´t rely on them much, I just quoted the fact as significa/insignifica, some curious trivia. My decision to buy or not to buy a particular car would depend on a whole lot more than numbers, and I mean whole LOT more.

karl k

Knightrider:

We are in agreement, the issue I have is with the W210 poster, not you.

It is for W210's benefit, that I posted the definition of obsolete:

1 : no longer in use or no longer useful.

2 : of a kind or style no longer current.

Neither definition applies to the current 2002 models. Our models might be considered obsolete in 10-20 years! Only time can tell.

W210

Exactly. The 2002 W210 models style will no longer be current when the 2003 W211 is introduced. The W211 replaces the W210 as the current MB E-class. Thanks for finding the definition to support my point.

W210

Karl K -

Both the new cars and old cars do have ABS, what I mentioned was ABC and not ABS. ABC really does help the car to put the power onto the road. With such new technology, the 450-500 bhps should actually be quite usable. I would agree with you that the current W210 chassis cannot handle more power but the W211 should be a different story.

I don't think only drivers interested in competing with Vipers would be interested in powerful super sedans! Spectre was one and I'm another, and it will be wrong to assume that all M5 or W211 E55 owners would only like to take our cars on the drag strip.


KnightRider -

I quite agree with your logic! Let's say when the new CLK55 arrives, even though it may have about the same power as the current CLK55, if I see both cars at the lot selling at about the same, it will be a no brainer too!

stephens

Interesting
Road and Track tested E55/M5, M5 understeered significantly more, pulled same G's on 200ft skid pad, was 1mph through slalom. They put it down to choice between auto and manual. This was against current model M5. Are you implying that X5 outhandles M5??

spectre

Hi, thanks so much for the interesting discussion!

Just to answer an earlier reply: I haven't actually looked at the W211 E500 with AMG pkg but will consider it.

Regarding the Viper. No, I don't plan to race Vipers, or even Corvettes or other E55s/M5s for that matter. My reasoning in purchasing a super sedan is perhaps for even more selfish reasons--I'm rewarding myself!!

I agree that the magazine car tests that look at performance are not a realistic appraisal of the car for us non-racers but it does give us a point of reference when comparing the cars.

Now, for the W210. It is a very nice car. My cousin has a 2000 E320 that handles beautifully and drives like a dream. Although there's a new model coming out, the car still looks good and will run I'm sure for many years (even decades!) to come. Some cars are instant classics and others reveal that trait years down the line. I suspect the MB E55 W210 and from what I've seen of the E55 W211 are two such models.

If I can extrapolate my drivng experiences of the BMW 3 series and MB C class to the M5 and E55 I suspect that the BMW will give me more feedback from the road whereas the MB will insulate the driver and passengers somewhat. As for performance differences I may never know since I am not a racecar driver.

The first reply boiled it down to auto or manual. But I suspect that this may be a moot point as both BMW and MB are pushing their versions of clutchless shifting and if the rumours regarding the new M5 are true you just may need the SMG!!

So, finally, where am I headed? I'm leaning to the new E55. I like the styling of the W211 and perhaps even moreso am concerned regarding the direction that BMW is taking in not only styling but technology. If the IDrive system, which is in the next gen 7 and 5 series, is not seriously overhauled then I will pass on a BMW...

Any more thoughts and commments will be helpful! Especially regarding maintenance of an E55.


Thanks.

W210

Hi Spectre,

I think you will find the W210 E55 very different from your cousin's E320. They're almost like two different cars, the E55 is much 'tighter' and far more nimble. For what is worth, I agree with Road and Track's comments on the E55 more so than Motor Trend. It's very quick and neutral.

Now the W211 E55, what a car. If you have any interest in possibly buying this car, I think you should rush to your dealer and put your name down on the list. The last thing you want is being told you have to wait 2 years after you have finally made up your mind. The W211 E55 will be a car in great demand and you should act quickly.

To me, the W211 E55 is a bargain when compared to the SL55, just like I think of the M5 being a bargain when compared to the Z8. The W211 E55 is particularly desirable as the wonderful engine is put into a brand new chassis with a bunch of proven technology.

By the time the W211 E55 is out in a year's time, the initial bugs of the W211 (if any) would have been ironed out and they would have perfected the brake by wire technology as well. You might as well enjoy the W211 E55 for a year or so before the new M5 is available. As of now, if you want the ultimate super performance sedan, if you can wait, I think the W211 E55 will be the key. It will beat the current M5 hands down.

Very little maintenance was required during the 2 years I have had the W210 E55.

KnightRider

Stephens, that´s what numbers from April 2002 Motor Trend imply. I haven´t read the magazine myself, but the guy from another forum posted 0-60, 1/4 mile and slalom numbers.
Slalom mph for E 55 was 62.84 and for X5 4.6is it was 63.13. It is not THAT surprising if you consider the fact that X5 4.6is is not your average X5 at all. X5 is very much based on E39 and 4.6is is lowered with harder suspension and MONSTER tyres (front 275/40 R20 / back 315/35 R20), same engine power as E 55 (347 hp) and it´s 4WD with almost perfect 50/50 weight distribution. Its´ SUV looks are deceptive. However I don´t like SHO SUVs, neither BMW nor Mercedes.
W210, you didn´t get my rationale, but never mind, it´s not important being a bit off topic in this discussion. I was comparing the purchase of an originally more expensive second-hand/previous bodystyle models with buying a new model with less power/class lower for the same price (for example our W211 E 270 CDI new was the same price as second-hand low miles 2001 W210 E 55 AMG, what I mean is that I would always go for a new car even if I could get previous bodystyle with more or much more power - I know that not everyone would agree with me on that).
By the way I agree with you on the point about E55/M5 being bargain compared to SL55/Z8. Those are convertibles and more exclusive, etc., but if you want power and handling these saloons are good value. But then W211 E55 will be bargain compared even to R230 SL500! I really find SLs to be overpriced, however you pay money for other things than simply power when buying those, I understand that.
By the time W211 E 55 is out (winter 02/03?), E39 M5 most likely will be discontinued, or it will happen soon afterwards. Hence they will not be competitors because of not being simultaneously in production.

karl k

Some say the Current CLK & E classes are obsolete?

Read this review on the new CLK, since many components/design features are shared with the E class:

http://www.topgear.beeb.com/content/...dtests/06.html
Verdict:

A whole lot faster than a retirement cottage down in Lyme Regis,
but not much more exciting really.

Hmmm, I will skip this new generation, obsolete retirement cottage of cars ... ha ha

W210

Totally agree with you on both counts. The W211 E55 seems like a real jewel it's definitely a no brainer if one is looking for a premium super performance sedan!