220S

Well, in Los Angeles everybody has an E Class. They are more ubiquitous than a Camry.

See my post above about inventory and pricing. As an example, there was over production of the 2010 W212 E63 and the dealers in LA were overstocked. To keep them happy, MB gave them huge discounts to unload them. Prices were super low. As mentioned in the interview with Leib, they tend to over produce and end up discounting more than others. However according to him inventory is catching up to production, so discount pricing with the W212 will not be as dramatic in the near future.

MSRP is one thing and the dealers are now cutting better deals on the F10 since production has increased. Invoice pricing is comparable. One needs to find a dealer willing to deal. There's no way BMW will be selling them at 14k more than a W212 and still outsell MB (as they did last month.)

btw, I wasn't talking about options but stuff that is standard. Stuff that was removed from MBs by MB (like passenger mirror tilt and REST climate control...)

Anyway, if you don't like the cars, then they aren't for you. That's pretty easy.

Happy New Year.

RNBRAD

Well standard features change from model to model and how they decide that, I assume is customer input, target population demographics, and problems experienced vs cost etc. Just like many cars today (as an example) don't have the cigarrette lighters as standard option anymore, and I'm sure a lot of people don't like it but I myself don't smoke and really don't want to pay for that option when I don't use it. That's one thing I like with MB is generally a change has a customer based input. For instance, during my 211 ownership MB sends me opinion polls etc. on what I would like to see in the next model, what's important and not so much. You may get the same questionaires. They actually added an idea I put down (CF card reader), which I believe is now standard, but I'm sure I wasn't the only one who suggested it. With a 9% price reduction from an 09 to a 2010 model I would think some features may have to be eliminated or considered as less of a desired option and focus on the more desired options the customers want. I can only speak for myself but the eliminated standard features you mentioned are of no importance to me. My car doesn't have REST (don't need it, so glad it's not standard) and if I remember right I disabled the passenger mirror tilt the 1st day I purchased it. Wasn't a good feature for me so glad it's not standard either. Of course not all people are the same and what I want may not be what you want. What you see as performance and value may not be to me, kind of like the heated head lamp squirters, to me that is the most rediculous flippin idea in the world, and I don't want to pay for it just cause I opted for the P2 package. BUT someone would be upset if they removed it from the P2 package.

I hope you get my point, I'm just glad some standard features change and new features are added, cause technology changes, our idea's, wants, needs, desires change and hopefully for the most part, and for MB's success, that as a whole they get most of the things we desire in a price range we are willing to pay and can afford. But with anything in life, you just can't please everyone, if so, there would only be 1 car company.

Happy New Year as well!!

K-A

That's something M-B has been doing too much with the W212, so they must have produced a buttload, as the cars are obviously selling well.

It looks classless, and devalues the car, when M-B sells $60K E's for under $50K to people, and when you read people on Forums saying "I wanted a Bimmer, but M-B discounted the hell out of my E, so I sucked it up and went with it". It makes M-B look bad, and devalues the E. Not to mention, it's like giving a stray dog food, you do it once, and they expect it forever, you stop doing it, and ask them to appreciate the good gesture in the first place, and they think you're an a$$.

Seems like MBUSA (obviously) acknowledges this, and hopefully they'll stop promoting the E near that "0 Down 0% Financing" style.... At least Toyota's don't make such mockeries of their MSRP pricing.

The E will do fine against the F10, as the styling is more catered for those who want to make a statement, i.e it'll have more curb appeal, due to the standard F10's very passive, and mistakable, yet still very elegant styling. The E60 (and W210 before it) proved that many shoppers in this segment prefer that style, while many prefer the more "understated' (both are understated, just one always more so than the other).

Where M-B is shooting themselves in the foot is, deeply discounting the early models. Where will they go from there? If they keep doing that, they'll teach people to believe that the F10 is a more expensive and worth-it car. During this, BMW will make tons more profits on the F10's they sell for more money.

That, and BMW hasn't forced clones on their shoppers. Learn from BMW, MBUSA, don't equip all E's the same, and please CHARGE for the AMG Package! Not all of us are happy to have such cool AMG styling whored out to every Granny in their Benz, and to every non enthusiast who wouldn't initially care. Have respect for the upmarket Options, and charge a premium for them, so those of us willing to pay, can have a model that slightly stands out from the crowds.

I like the 212 more than the F10, but the F10 has more differentiations to keep enthusiasts interested and happy. And it seems BMW respects the model more-so, while MBUSA *appear* to be after the quick buck with the 212. Everything is free (AMG Package, LED daytime running lights), limited visual differentiations, barely any Luxury models available (ridiculous, as the Sport suspension is way too harsh over rough roads for many older shoppers), etc. etc. These things give the E a "Fleet Car" approach, and it won't help it age well to the market.

Ugh, that was long. It gets me all riles up. Rant off.

RNBRAD

Well production numbers is like a crap shoot, just hope you guess it correctly cause if you sway numbers too far either way and it cost's millions to billions. As with most car manufacturers, new year production models is a slippery science trying to make buyer number predictions correct. It usually tapers off and they can better predict demand. You just never know how it's going to turn out till after the fact.

Of course in 2008, Toyota was practically giving away their SUV's when gas prices shot to 4 dollars a gallon. A 60k Sequoyah could be purchased for around 42 pretty easy. I had to pay sticker that same year for an 08 civic and in some places they were charging 1000 over sticker. Of course pricing is all about supply and demand, always has, always will be.

golfster

The fleet car comment is accurate, as the E is now available as part of the Hertz rental car fleet. Certainly a strategy to gain even more exposure and then boost sales even more, starting a replenishing cycle, of sorts. Not so different from Audi, as they boosted fleet sales through company car programs. I'm not sure if BMW pursues the fleet approach in the US, but the cars are nonetheless abundant, if not overly abundant, in my area...Just recently observed at a four way intersection, there were five 5 Series (previous gen) and they are quite popularly seen on Main Street day after day.

I don't think any of these German mid-range sedans are rare, nor do I think they were intended to be. They are the bread and butter range of the brand they represent. I was aware of that going in, and it was what I was looking for when purchasing this particular car.

We all benefit from the strategy whether or not we like to see the "over population" of the species. And it is the manufacturers' strict intent to boost sales and achieve revenue growth. The car has more cache' than a Ford Taurus but it certainly isn't rare. It is a decent car from a great brand just the same.

We have a thread dedicated to the posting of great deals for those in the hunt, so it seems odd to complain about the great deals when we all benefited by the knowledge the deals indeed exist. In the end, like all material goods, the value isn't determined by MSRP, but by the price people are willing to pay.

K-A

To your last line: Exactly. And with M-B dropping the price, and releasing an acclaimed car, they still are allowing the market to be willing-to-pay a lot less than MSRP. As 220S posted, the MBUSA head said they will stop doing that. But the "business side" in me thinks that getting people used to such great deals on the car, simply devalues the car (raise your hand if you'll pay close to MSRP on an E-Class?). I know this isn't only occurring with the E, but all Luxury cars to an extent, and the S is even a LOT worse. But M-B is known to feel the need to post the highest incentives, to stay competitive.

About "Fleet Car, to me, any car that has no intention for the enthusiasts market, and is marketed to simply "sell sell sell, whatever it takes", becomes something that is aligned with the respect from the manufacturer, as a "Fleet Car". Everybody wants to sell, mass produce, etc., but it's how you disguise it.

Indeed, the E isn't rare. It shouldn't be rare, it's an amazing car. Arguably the best engineered car for such a "bargain" price. To me, it's basically a smaller S-Class (100K car), with some more utilitarian materials here and there, the same cache, heritage, quality, engineering, etc., but for a lot less. Not to mention, I think the W211 and W212 E's are maybe the nicest Sedans on the road right now, including even the S's, and more exotic Sedans, etc.

However, M-B and BMW have always had enthusiasts aesthetic Packages, to keep things interesting, and fun. The W210 and W211's with AMG Package were very special to me.... And I'm not even talking about the actual AMG's. They're common-ish cars, with stand-out features. I like having a car that people want to buy, and buy, but I want to enhance it like I like (which is why I got Pano, P2, little mods here and there, etc.).

The W211 had 3 different styling Packages. The W212 has one, and the rarest breed is the most standard actual model: Luxury.

Whaddaya gonna do, eh.

Is this something new that M-B is doing with the W212? I know C's have always been available as Premium Rentals. I don't know about the W211 though. I remember seeing some Hertz non-Loaded W212's in the Autotrader for CHEAP, so I knew they were using E's, just wasn't sure if it was common practice.

petee1997

K-A I don't know why you are hung up on the free AMG pack. Why would anyone be unhappy about a freebee? If you think that charging for the option, makes the car more unique, you are wrong. The E class is the commoner's car, especially in your area. The only people who notice this stuff are on this board. The rest don't know the difference and could care less. This is the Buick of the 60's. Now relax and enjoy the extra $5,000.00 in your pocket.

RNBRAD

Both good points, I see both sides. It's nice to get something as a freebee but then everyone gets it thus making it less unique. It's a double edged sword so to say. Perfect world scenario would be to offer a sport package for free just to me. lol

220S

Just for the record, head lamp washers are required by law in the EU when the car has bi-xenon headlamps. That's the reason it exists with the P2 package.

I'm sure a lot of "features" in a car (or not in a car) are based on many factors and not solely on 'what the customer desires.'

Anyway, there has been certain cost cutting and decontenting in all brands. The economy of 2008 really slapped the industry in the face. Another thing that Lieb said in his interview was that the auto industry has now entered into a totally new paradigm.

And mfgs always have to determine what to offer and what not to offer and within certain parameters such as regulations, costs, production issues, etc.. And at the same time remain competitive. It's not an easy business to be in.

I hope everyone had a happy and safe new year's eve. Here's to a prosperous 2011.

K-A

It isn't "free" when it's standard, though.

I'm not concerned with how the E-Class is viewed, and owning 2 of them, I'm aware of the true public perception in real time.

Historically, there have always been "enthusiast" Packages, and I'm not talking about larger motors. BMW still does it, S-Class still does it, etc.

I'm more concerned with preserving that "enthusiasts" end, rather than mass producing the AMG Pack, to force it on every buyer (practically, as even if you don't want it, you can't really find a Luxury it seems, and yes, most don't care, or notice it.... Which further "ruins" it for the rest of us).

I'd gladly pay that cash (or maybe have taken it out of some of my other options, lol), to get such a "Package".

BTW, in the "homeland", there still are 3-4 variations of the E, and the AMG Pack is a rare sight, that gets enthusiasts excitable out there. It shows more respect and creativity with the car. Further proof, that this "good gesture" (and yes, it is a good gesture, however, it also hurts the car in some ways that I've mentioned as well) by MBUSA is also a bit lazy to us. E-Class buyers out here are a bunch of non enthusiasts for the vast most part, but MBUSA doesn't have to cave to them so much.

K-A

BTW, when I "spoke" with MBUSA on the subject, they said that the AMG Pack was decided to be put on as standard, after the '09 W211 with free AMG Pack got such a nice reception, and they didn't want to stop that momentum. They also said that the AMG look is more appropriate for a "Sport Sedan".

Crazy how quickly some of these decisions get made!

Look at the CLS, S-Class, even E-Coupe. All of them charge a premium for the Sport Package. The E not doing it, gives its AMG Pack a more "Fleet Car" vibe, a'la C-Class.

Oh well, on the plus side, yes, it did save me some cash, and who cares who else has it, right? I get to enjoy it.

Oh, and are you implying there's anything wrong with a 60's Buick?

petee1997

No I love that 66 Buick Wildcat 2dr hardtop and yes that cost more than the sedan. Sport wasn't free back then. The first freebee was a no charge heater, then the AM radio etc...... and look where we are now, free AMG pack.


Happy New Year K-A and all the rest of you on MB World.

fromthebeginnin

Great car and photo KA

K-A

You too Petee! Here's to a great 2011. And true that, who knows, maybe one of these days we'll get the new 4.4TT as no-cost options as well.