rovermark

Hear, hear. For the very same review above (your link) there was someone criticising the reviewer back and forth on his take of hard seats and "zombie steering", which I found (as a consumer) to be perfectly valid.

But for glowing reviews, it is just as you said - people have an irrational admiration and attachment for a company (in this case Mercedes-Benz) and feel the need to broadcast and attempt to disqualify anyone who does not agree with them. Despite that very company producing despicable vehicles just recently (first gen-M class, W210 - what an awful car)

Reference:
https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...tats-asap.html

BenzE350

I like TTAC and have read this review before. It's interesting in that it reads mostly complimentary (quality of materials, base engine, 7-speed transmission, free AMG sport kit, handling, solid planted feel) but finishes by summarizing who is this car for (styling aspects, overly firm seats, and zombie steering)?

Many aspects of a car are subjective. Personally I like the seats - they have decent lateral support and my back feels fine after several hours behind the wheel. (But I don't like the MB-Tek.)

Is the steering as good as my last E60 or a new Porsche Panamera - absolutely not. However it certainly is not "zombie" and feels much like every MB sedan I have driven. Communicative steering has never been a MB strong suit.

The same writer, Michael Karesh, reviewed the new F10 5 series last August. He summarized that the new 5 was a better car in virtually every way over the previous E60 - but lacked "enjoyment." Very subjective.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...i/#more-362499

So, read the reviews if you want - but make your own subjective conclusions.

ngerstman

The 210 Mercedes, what an awful car, I would beg to differ. I had a 2000 e320 4matic that I put 165,000 miles on. It had its' issues with sensors initially but had a pleasant, quiet, comfortable ride and never left me stranded on the side of the road. It was well put together, after 11 years pretty much no rattles and still worked fine. How many cars could you say that about. I also still have my 2001 e55 that has been a trouble free vehicle, even with the full Kleeman mods. For its' day it was a fairly competitive vehicle(the e320) and if I had to do it again, I don't think there would have been anything else I would have preferred to purchase, other than maybe getting the v8. The 320 engine admittedly had no ***** as they say. But all in all, not a terrible daily drive. Regards. Ned.

K-A

The W210 is such a polarizing model in M-B's history, some loath it, and some admire it.

I think that a facelifted silver or white W210 with AMG Pack, or better yet all out E55 is one of the nicer Sedans out there, and a clean and well kept example still drops my jaw.

But yeah, the mid 90's to mid 00's are rough periods for M-B in general (the Schrempp era).

As for the "zombie steering", another factor that is selfish by most reviewers when they use it to work against an M-B. First off, it isn't Toyota esque (true "zombie" steering), and why isn't that a plus point? Since when did Mercedes stand for feeling every pebble in the road? I think the wheel is properly communicative in the 212 (actually most of any E yet), but still removes you from the road enough, like a Benzes steering should.

Funny thing is, the F10's steering got less communicative from the E60's, so shouldn't that serve as further proof that steering that isn't incredibly "feel the road" is preferred for this demographic of buyers? So why would they selfishly use that against the cars?

I feel like all these guys wish they were Reviewing Ferrari's, so when they get E-Classes, S-Class, Carrolla's, whatever, they'll Review it in the same fashion.

RNBRAD

My sentiments exactly. I never understood how road feel is a benefit. A benefit for what? Agressive driving, race manuevers? Kind of like when I drove my brothers new BMW 335, I could feel the road as if riding in a go-cart. I felt it in the floor, I felt it in the seat, I felt it on the door, I felt it in the steering, and this is a good thing? I feel enough of the road on long trips I take in my 2008 Civic and I dread it, I want something that takes me away from the feel of the road and makes traveling less tiring. I don't take this car to the track, nore do I hit some twisties and see what kind of G's I can get out of this chassis/tire set-up. I want the most comfortable ride I can get. To me it's like as cars get better and more comfortable they have less road feel. I've ridden sport bikes most my life, talk about road feel. It's great though in aggressive driving manuevers and serves a purpose. Now try taking that bike on a long trip. Very tiring.

220S

Reviews are certainly subjective (that was kind of my point), they have to be since every reviewer has their own experience, desires, and biases. There's no way around it; it's just like news reporting.

We could just get the facts (specs on the track) like Edmunds, R&T and C&D do (along with their subjective editorials.) But most people don't want purely numbers and just want somebody to tell them which car to buy.

The one thing about the above mentioned sources is that the editorial part is a collection of staff opinions (the ones who participated in the testing) and not the conclusion of one reviewer. And I think that's better than the 'one reviewer' method.

The numb steering is definitely the number one remark in just about all reviews. But even that could be considered subjective. The demographic who primarily buys non AMG E-Class cars most likely don't ever notice it, or even understand it (and actually prefer it.) As RNBRAD and K-A imply, the majority buying the non-AMG E Class (or a Lexus) buy them for comfort alone and not performance. Otherwise Daimler would have re-engineered the steering rack. I personally hate the non-AMG steering but I have a totally different agenda, and won't argue the merits of proper 'driver's feeback' here. And Daimler's agenda is to sell cars and be profitable, so until sales diminish because of zombie steering it'll no doubt remain a car with zombie steering. Plus they feel they have the AMG line to fill in those desires expressed by the other half (more like 1/8) of MB buyers who want true performance.

btw, the deal with this 'LegitLifeStyle' website is that it's a typical ad revenue site based on hits. I read some of the other product reviews and they are very superficial (and with errors, too.) It's a 'fluff' site. The owner of the site has posted the link in other MB forums to drum up interest (and eventually more revenue.) I'd personally stick to actual established auto trade magazines and websites with an experienced staff for 'car reviews.'

ngerstman

Don't insult us non AMG "e" class buyers by comparing our car's steering and suspensions to Lexus. PLEASE!!!!! Is everyone in So. Cal. as pompous and condescending as you? Without Regards. Ned.

220S

It wasn't an insult at all. Sorry. I mentioned a Lexus (which I've never owned and know nothing about) because I'm assuming people who buy a Lexus are doing so because they want comfort as their number one priority. Don't lots of potential E Class buyers cross shop the Lexus?

I wasn't being pompous or condescending at all

Excuse me if I hit a nerve. My apologies.

p.s., Daimler has always had their sights on both the BMW 5 series and Lexus when marketing the E Class. I think I read recently that they out-sold Lexus for a brief moment. Is comparing Lexus and E Class buyers a bad thing? Again, it wasn't intended as insulting........

RNBRAD

Well everyone buys cars for different reasons obviously. They are kind of a reflection of ourselves in what we want at this time in our lives and what we can afford and what kind of gas mileage we want and is this a daily driver, do we have families and how many kids at what ages and how old are they and where do we live, how's the roads, what type of travel do we do and this list is endless. So no wonder there is so many different cars. I mean think of an AMG station wagon? Makes me kind of laugh but you know, there some people that bought them.

I can bag on my 08 civic all day long when I compare it to my MB, but when I'm getting 40mpg hauling my kid on trips to soccer games, makes me a happy soccer dad. Of course I bought my Benz, not because I needed the car, it was my 7th. When I first laid eyes on it, it was kind of love at first site with me, kind of like your spouse or a hot girl. I wasn't even in the market for a car, I was actually getting work done on my 211 when the SA took me to an offsite location and I drove it in mid july 2009. I would of bought it right then and there but she couldn't sell it because they were having an unveiling party in August. The 550's were really rare at 1st but I went ahead and ordered it taking delivery in February. I was one of limited few to review the car here. I remember all the critics about my comments, specifically 211 owners and KA was one of the biggest, lol. But one of the reasons we are all here, cause the best information, feedback, problems, fixes, and reviews come from the actual owners of the cars and not necessarily from magazines or review wesites

ngerstman

A big nerve. I think that it is fair to say that most people on this forum buy their Mercedes because they believe that they are getting a certain balance of luxury sedan and sport sedan as well executed as any in the world. Those that buy the e350 sport get a little bit more sport than the luxury and those who choose the e550 sport that much sportiness versus e350 buyers. Non of us bought nor wanted to buy a car that drives and handles like a Porsche. But we certainly value the steering, suspension and handling but in the appropriate balance given what we are buying the cars for. If you ever drove a Lexus you would never again mention it in the same breath with Mercedes. A Mercedes handles like a Porsche compared to the truly numb steering and suspension of a Lexus. IMO, BMW's have historically strived to be "the driving machine". In the process they could never touch the balance that Mercedes has usually achieved in their handling and especially their suspensions, which have always been second to non for real world drivers. Notice how BMW is being accused of being more Mercedes-like. That's fine with me. And there may be some Mercedes buyers who cross shop Lexus. My wife had a 2005 Lexus rx330 which was fine for her, but their sedans would not do for anyone who you'll converse with on this forum. They may test drive them but immediately run back to Mercedes or BMW. The only Lexus sedan worth any consideration would be the LS460 which one would clearly buy for the luxury and not the joy of sport driving. As far as all the so called reviewers who claim that the e class has numb steering, consider that they are all motorheads(I don't mean that in a negative way) who would rather be driving a Porsche or a BMW. So if Porsche steering is a 1, with BMW a 2 and Mercedes a 4, a Lexus would be an 8. The less numb steering that can result in go cart handling comes with a price that many drivers driving on real world roads don't want to deal with. For us, the Mercedes e class handles just fine and has the right amount of steering feel. Sorry for the crass remark. But your comment did come across as an insult to many on this forum who do believe that they made intelligent, informed decisions to buy as good a sport sedan as is made on the planet. Regards. Ned.

K-A

Exactly. I rode in my friends M3 Sedan and I HATED it, bumpy, and boy do you "feel the road". Again, I love sports cars, but my E Class is NOT one of them, and I don't want it to be. I want to be coddled from the road, and I want the road to feel miles away, and I'm not apologetic about that.

About the Lexus comments, the E is certainly much sportier, and more driver involved than a Lexus, but this is purely that "German tightness/Tuetonic nature" that I was speaking of. Mercedes strikes a balance, and it caters more toward Luxury, and I hope it stays that way. However, Lexus feels like you're driving with a remote control.... A Benz does not feel l like that. When getting in my E from my Moms Lexus ES, there's no comparison in regards to which is more "numb". However, the E is STILL more coddling from the road, but it just has a more quality, and tight/solid driving feel.

Also, the W212's handling and steering feel is noticeably better than the W211's (even if that doesn't reflect on the track tests), so M-B did go more toward BMW there, but they thankfully didn't go all the way. Now, BMW did the same, except in the opposite direction.

WGB

Anyway I really love my E class - it has the correct balance of comfort, feel and performance for me to enjoy driving a lot and for a long time.

It obviously impressed the Police woman who gave me a ticket for speeding yesterday as she reduced the recorded speed to below the point where demerit points kick in.

Must droive more slowly... Must drive more slowly... Must drive more slowly...

Bill

K-A

That's another reason I got the 350 ^^. Lol.

ngerstman

The operative word for the category of car that we banter about on this forum for the e class is sport "sedan", not sport car. For what it is, it handles very well IMO. No need to apologize. It is not a Porsche 911. It is a "luxury sport sedan" and it represents those words as well or better than any car in the world. Period. I am glad that we are all in a position to be able to afford one. Most people can't. I have always thought that one of the magical things about a Mercedes is its' suspension. They handle great and give you good road feedback while at the same time absorbing the worst parts of the road. Nobody has done that better than Mercedes. Now if they would only give us a high end stereo worthy of our cars!! Regards. Ned.

K-A

Lol, funny thing is I actually like the stereo!

My biggest criticism of the E350 Sport suspension is what I said earlier though. It rides supreme and serene when the roads are good, but when the roads get rough, it doesn't act very luxuriously, and if "Sport" is determined by how harsh a car rides then it sure gets a bit "Sporty". In reality, it seems M-B dialed the car in well for Luxurious riding, but the Sport suspension does just what I said, it acts more abrasively over harsher roads. I guess it's impossible to get the car with that all-road smooth Luxury suspension, and with a nice lowered stance, without sacrificing some over the rougher roads though (unless you have Airmatic). I wish that this car handled rough roads better, as it gets a bit jarring for a Luxury car, but I obviously like the slightly better trade-off and balance of having a bit of a tighter, more pinned down drive, as opposed to a higher sitting floaty Luxury suspension.

ngerstman

I bet that is a function of the 18 inch rims more than anything else. There isn't much you can do about not having more rubber between you and the road. My guess is that most cars with 18 inch rims would jar you on rough roads way more than the Mercedes suspension. I wish that Mercedes would give you the option of the sport suspension with 17 inch rims. I wonder what that would drive like. I would like to see for myself just how much handling that one gives up to move down to 17 inch rims from 18's. That certainly hasn't been the trend as we have seen a silly march to ever larger rims. It wasn't long ago that 17 inch rims would have been considered large rims for a luxury sedan. But the consumer seemed to embrace the bigger is better mentality and the auto companies were more than happy to oblige. When I bought my e550 sport I wanted to test drive the luxury, which I was told had the same tuning of the suspension, but there wasn't one to try. I am happy with the sport but there still is no getting around less rubber when you hit ruts and potholes, even with the airmatic set to comfort. Sounds like you may be one of those people who would have been willing to give up a little handling for more road protection. Regards. Ned.

rovermark

Maybe i was a bit harsh, but I think most people would agree that the W210 was a step down in terms of Mercedes engineering compared to the W124; the first Mercedes to rust prematurely according to the German press.

K-A

Yeah, the 18's are probably a big piece of the problem. Oh well, my vanity in this case runs a bit deeper than the functionality (bigger wheels, Sport styling complimenting the Luxury Sedan). I think the 18's are as big as I'd go though on this car. 19's look perfect, but 18's look almost perfect IMO, and I have no desire to go 20's for either functionality, or even looks necessarily.

I think 18's are the best balance to stroke both my sides, but any bigger and I think the ride of this car is being hampered.... As it is even with the 18's IMO.

ngerstman

Not having the opportunity to experience the difference between 17 and 18 inch rims on my car, my sense is that one has to accept the trade-off between ride comfort and handling that you get with the 18 inch rims although it could be close. I personally don't think that the look makes that much of a difference once you get to 17 inch rims on a sedan the size of the "e". Anything below that and the rubber of the tire starts to dominate the look. I think that e350's with 17's look great. Regards. Ned.

RNBRAD

I had 16's on my e320 and I put my stock 18'' AMG's from my 212 on the 211. Tightened the handling up quite a bit and also dropped the quality of the ride as well. I guess the sacrifice we take. The suspension of the 550 is so good though that there is still no comparison between my 19's and the 211 with 16's. I really could bever tell a difference in ride quality between the 18's and 19's. Only thing I noticed was a change in road noise. Not by much but it just sounded different. Of course I really like the stereo, except for the sub. I contacted Harmon and their response is below. I guess I will contact the dealer next.

Hi Brad,


Thank you for your email.


You have reached the website for the aftermarket car audio division. Unfortunately, I have no information regarding your original equipment audio system in your vehicle. These questions can be best answered by contacting your local vehicle dealership, as we are not able to support these products being that they are made by the OEM division.

On Your factory system:
The OEM division produces only the upgraded amplifier and speakers for your factory system. The source unit is produced by another company. To this end, your dealership will be your only avenue for obtaining information on this unit as we do not have any information on these products.

If your system requires service:
Should your factory installed audio system require service please contact your dealership. Any warranty service and/or the replacement of any factory installed components should be handled by your dealership.



Regards,

ngerstman

Well that's something. Better amps and speakers. Harman International is the company the owns Mark Levenson and Harmon Kardon among other high end brands. I am seriously wondering if there is a quality control issue with who they are sourcing the electronics from as well as the installation. One speaker wire out of phase can screw up the entire sound of the system. It is hard to believe that you and 220s, both people with extensive sound system experience as well as being passionate about music could differ so much on the 212 system. You had mentioned to me that you really crank the bass and treble controls to get acceptable sound. As I'm sure you know, you should never have to do that with a well designed system. I tried your suggestions on my car and found the sound to be too muddy in the bass and into the midrange and way too bright in the treble. I really think that there may be a quality control issue and way to much variance from car to car. Regards. Ned.

RNBRAD

Did you try track 10 "underground beats" when doing your listening? If so let me know what you get. I can't really make my bass or midbass muddy. It's very tight and crisp and I've never been able to overpower or distort the drivers. I do get significant amounts of midbass from the doors and always thought this car has bass drivers up front. I had no idea it actually had a sub tell several months of ownership did I figure it out. One thing I did notice on this car which I thought was kind of weird, but good, while playing a 0 bit track ( no music) on a test disk, this system has absolutely no noise even at max volume. I've never experienced this and not sure how it happens. I've had equipment that has "noise gates" that drops the sound between tracks to limit hiss but with this system, it is virtually non-existent. The only thing I can gather from that is the amplifier gains or however they control that from the factory may be turned very low. Putting in music like Bass Mechanik and other bass oriented recordings, it wakes the sub up. It actually ouperforms my 10'' kicker L5 that I have in my civic with 300 watts. So like i said before, it is a capable sub it just has no volume or output under normal listening conditions, even with the bass slider all the way up. Problem is the sliders are usally set at a certain frequency. It actually increases output from the midbass drivers up front versus the sub in the rear, further drowning out or overpowering any low bass from the sub. It should be the opposite. It would be an easy fix in a system with better crossover and frequency control, but not sure that this can be done here but then again it may. Just a little tweak could actually fix it easily, if that tweak can actually be done. Otherwise the rest of the system is awesome and imaging and balance is very good considering the speakers are mounted in the doors.

220S

As I said, I don't know anything about Lexus except that according to Daimler, they are MB's biggest competitor (along with BMW.) So one would assume that the cars might be comparable with the E Class in some ways, and/or at least for some buyers.

I do realize that the Lexus name doesn't have the cachet of other brands. The Lexus LFA is a pretty amazing piece of automotive technology (at a MSRP of $370,000.) But because of the name associated, many say they'd prefer a Lamborghini or a Ferrari (the targeted competitors) even despite the limited run of production LFAs (it's actually a halo vehicle) i.e., "never mention Ferrari in the same breath as Lexus." But they can't come up with any performance or build quality reasons.

In the meantime, the automotive press and experienced (race track) drivers continue to praise its performance and build quality: "the Lexus LFA is more visceral and exciting and better balanced and more nimble than the Ferrari 599GTB. At the same time, the LFA is easy to drive at everyday speeds, quiet at cruise, and refined, just like a Lexus should be. Whether people can equate the brand with a hugely expensive, hugely competent sports car will be interesting to say the least."

I dunno, but maybe it's just kind of an unfortunate commentary on the the human species when the mention of a certain brand can create such negative emotion in people. When did the material goods we choose to own become the surrogate to our veritable position in life; i.e., our creativity, our skills, our abilities, our inventiveness, and our contributions to the world? And why all this affectation over the (perceived) status of much of those goods? And yes, these are rhetorical questions.

Too bad reviewers and consumers can't review and test out cars blindfolded.

I have some comments on the SLS AMG's 11-speaker BeoSound premium system by the designers of the system, Markus Koch (Bang & Olufsen Application Engineer) and Kresten Krab-Bjerre (Bang & Olufsen Concept Developer / Designer.) They also described the new premium Burmester system that's available in the Porsche Panamera.

It was a discussion sponsored by AMG and one of the rules was not to cut and paste the comments and post them on the internet publicly, but I can pm it to you (and RNBRAD) if you're at all interested.

fwiw, I use 17" wheels at the track on my P-car for performance (and 18" on the street.) I think in the end it all depends on each specific chassis.

And as far as steering feel and ride quality, etc., is concerned, I think it's not so much about "motorheads" doing 'sports car' comparisons but primarily subjective differences based on one's age and comfort levels. Car and Driver's editor-at-large John Phillips once said "I’d pay extra for shocks I could toggle into 55-year-old-guy mode."

Younger folk tend to tolerate stiffer suspensions better and usually prefer more driver's feedback. But I'm sure I'll probably change my tune as I age.

RNBRAD

Sure send it my way. Though I haven't listened to it personally I would be curious as to see what a 9k OEM system would sound like. I'm sure the quality may be stellar but just looking at the cars speaker placement it won't image well. Just a downside of door and dash mounted speakers. Then again maybe this system has some digital sound processing with time delay, which I think it should have for that price.

ngerstman

With the snow here in NJ, I was forced to put my 2001 e55 in a remote garage for much of the last two weeks. I took it out for a spin today and got to enjoy my after market Focal Utopia, JL Audio subs, Zapco Reference and Pioneer p7/p9 head unit and digital crossover/eq stereo. My ears feel free!!! Most people just don't appreciate how good a true high stereo can sound in a car and what a joy it is to tool around with music reproduced with that kind of quality. Most people don't understand that each part of the chain has to do its' job with transparency and control over the signal. Once again, not that I think the e550 stereo is terrible, just lacking in the low end and not top shelf in other parameters, but serviceable. It makes me pretty jealous that Porsche has the option of a Burmester stereo. That could be outrageous. The B&O stereo I heard in an Audi sounded extremely clean. I would love to read the discussion regarding those super high end systems. Thanks. Ned.