They Don't Seem to Build BMW's Quite Like This...
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That said my '98 Audi A4 which endured two weekend track sessions with the Porsche club, my GF's demonstation of her skills with a clutch
and my teenage son has proven itself to be a far less delicate car than my W211 was.
Last edited by MBNUT1; Feb 3, 2011 at 07:58 PM.
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There's no doubt that old Porsches and other old cars have a soul, etc., and that can make them more desirable. I just don't generally subscribe to the "they don't make them like they used to" mantra. While that is true, today's cars are on average "better" in practically every objective respect (performance, efficiency, functionality, reliability) from older cars.
Oh, and 220s, you have a pt re the 996. That was a misstep for Porsche.
Oh, and 220s, you have a pt re the 996. That was a misstep for Porsche.
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True except owners of older Mercedes didn't have the mantra "You better not own it without a warranty" In fact the mantra associated with Mercedes was "It will run forever". Guess I am disappointed that Mercedes hasn't been able to maintain their long term cost of ownership while making other improvements. I guess they have embraced our disposable society mentality.
Last edited by MBNUT1; Feb 3, 2011 at 10:29 PM.
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
All Luxury car makers have VERY MUCH embraced our disposable/Lease-then-throw away mentality, in fact, they are major players in pushing and glorifying it.
Fact is, all these advancements are what screw up our cars. It's not the structural integrity, drivetrains, etc. Our new cars will run forever if they were sans electronics.
The late 90's were a rough period for all Luxury makers. Benz, Jag, BMW, Porsche, all got way ahead of themselves due to their iconic 80's runs, and they all made complete under-engineered crap. All our seemingly trying to rekindle their pre-90's days now.
And I will say, considering how advanced these vehicles are, Mercedes is making them pretty damn reliable. The W221 is the most reliable S-Class since the W126, and that is taking into consideration how incredibly more advanced it is. The W204 is a little tank, and the W212 is just gonna probably prove to be even better built than those two.
Again, these cars can not, and will not ever rule the J.D Powers Charts (or whatever charts) and they'll never be issue free, unless they were regressive in terms of engineering and complexities, but they're a far cry ahead of what M-B was building a decade ago, in terms of tangible build quality and dependability.
Also, as for cost to own, that will always be high, as Mercedes jacks up prices on parts, Dealer Servicing, etc.
Fact is, all these advancements are what screw up our cars. It's not the structural integrity, drivetrains, etc. Our new cars will run forever if they were sans electronics.
The late 90's were a rough period for all Luxury makers. Benz, Jag, BMW, Porsche, all got way ahead of themselves due to their iconic 80's runs, and they all made complete under-engineered crap. All our seemingly trying to rekindle their pre-90's days now.
And I will say, considering how advanced these vehicles are, Mercedes is making them pretty damn reliable. The W221 is the most reliable S-Class since the W126, and that is taking into consideration how incredibly more advanced it is. The W204 is a little tank, and the W212 is just gonna probably prove to be even better built than those two.
Again, these cars can not, and will not ever rule the J.D Powers Charts (or whatever charts) and they'll never be issue free, unless they were regressive in terms of engineering and complexities, but they're a far cry ahead of what M-B was building a decade ago, in terms of tangible build quality and dependability.
Also, as for cost to own, that will always be high, as Mercedes jacks up prices on parts, Dealer Servicing, etc.
Last edited by K-A; Feb 4, 2011 at 03:42 AM.
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
So how to move product has always been the part of the puzzle. Hence the fact that auto mfgs have also become finance institutions.
"Daimler’s Dieter Zetsche, in a second job also President of the European auto manufacturer association ACEA, also doesn’t see much growth for Europe. Daimler sees the BRIC countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China) as the drivers of growth, after car sales in the BRIC countries had quadrupled in the past 10 years. Zetsche also wants to “rely on the BRIC countries for growth.”
Personal perception is how one navigates through life. 
Then how does Porsche currently rule the JD Powers charts?
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Porsche's are very well built, no doubt about that. But I would assume that Porsche's small and far more enthusiast owner oriented demographic might have something to do with it? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Porsche doesn't go crazy on the crazy Electronic luxuries that some other makers employ in their cars, correct (Merc, BMW, etc.)?
Also, about M-B, time will only tell. But using the W221, and W204 as examples, and knowing that the W212 was built after them (i.e, after M-B's strong quality push), I'd say that I will wager that generally speaking, they will be as solid as we hope they will be. The E550/E63's, with their added complexities, have proven to be the slightly troublesome ones in the first MY, while E350's have seemed to be problem-free in the mass context.
Also, for example, there were lots of DTB's during the first several months of W212 run. I have an April build, and there were NO DTB's on my car, which shows that M-B doesn't wait 1 full MY to get things right, they improve things month by month. For ex: I would never own an '03 W211, but through my research, a late build '10 W212 is pretty much ironed out.
Also, about M-B, time will only tell. But using the W221, and W204 as examples, and knowing that the W212 was built after them (i.e, after M-B's strong quality push), I'd say that I will wager that generally speaking, they will be as solid as we hope they will be. The E550/E63's, with their added complexities, have proven to be the slightly troublesome ones in the first MY, while E350's have seemed to be problem-free in the mass context.
Also, for example, there were lots of DTB's during the first several months of W212 run. I have an April build, and there were NO DTB's on my car, which shows that M-B doesn't wait 1 full MY to get things right, they improve things month by month. For ex: I would never own an '03 W211, but through my research, a late build '10 W212 is pretty much ironed out.
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Porsche's are very well built, no doubt about that. But I would assume that Porsche's small and far more enthusiast owner oriented demographic might have something to do with it? Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but Porsche doesn't go crazy on the crazy Electronic luxuries that some other makers employ in their cars, correct (Merc, BMW, etc.)?
But they still get highest rankings for reliability
Yet if you speak with owners or go on Porsche forums, they do complain about all sorts of issues, too. Basically no German high tech car is immune. However, the later 997s (and current 997.2s) do seem pretty solid. Biggest complaints with the 997.2 is oil consumption and DFI soot (and potential carbon in the motor.) And get ready for similar DFI concerns with the new MB motors. The true dry sump non-DFI motors are extremely solid like in the TTs and GTs. Those motors are a direct evolution from the very early 911 M97 Metzger motors. Very solid and if somebody forced a 996 on me, I'd be sure it's a TT or GT variant (which also have the Metzger motor) otherwise I wouldn't touch it.
Here's an article you'd enjoy reading. It covers a lot of what we've been talking about here.
http://www.insideline.com/porsche/91...rsche-993.html
Some excerpts: (note the last paragraph and the "plethora of electronic gizmos" reference.)
"There's no disguising that the 993 hails from a different era, yet there's also an integrity about the cabin that no modern car can match. The substantial action of the doors as they slam close, the depth of the carpets and the quality of the switchgear are nothing less than extraordinary from our perspective today. This car is 16 years old, but everything works and feels like it's a step beyond the current car, not two steps behind."
"In contrast to its hand-built predecessor, the modern 997 feels mass-produced, and not in a good way. The leather is now so thick with chemical treatments that Daisy wouldn't recognize it. The switchgear no longer has the weight and solidity of old, while the modern instrument dials lack that timeless charm. Sitting in a 911 is now less of an occasion, but this reflects changing tastes and more emphasis on ergonomic correctness, not a wrong turn in design. By contemporary standards, a modern Porsche 911 is extremely well built, and also safe and comfortable thanks to its plethora of electronic gizmos. Just as the Porsche 911 has always been, the 997 is an everyday sports car, only we expect more from everyday transportation today than we did in 1994."
) But a late build 2010 W212 isn't exactly 100% ironed out, imho. However what is going for it is that it uses most of the late W211 drivetrain, motor, brakes, etc.. It's not a complete redo, like the F10 550i, for example.
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2010 E350 4Matic
Fun discussion. My sense is it is possible that the newer generations W204 W221 and W212 potentially represent a return (in direction at least) to fundamentally greater reliability. I have to weigh that hope against my sister being stranded on the side of the road with her C300 4matic due to an overheating problem.
I have to admit that my dad's '59 180 blew a head gasket once. But then again he had just forded a stream with it.
I have to admit that my dad's '59 180 blew a head gasket once. But then again he had just forded a stream with it
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Last edited by MBNUT1; Feb 4, 2011 at 08:45 PM.
