RJC

It's going to be interesting to see what your car is worth at the end of your lease, that's the only way you'll know if it really made sense or not. I'd imagine the current 350 will take a big hit due to the new much improved powertrains and if your lease ends after the facelift the hits, it will be even worse. With leasing some of the keys to a good lease in addition to the MF and residuals is putting down next to nothing, the time value of your money if you would have paid cash and what your CPA says makes the most sense for your individual situation; another good component to leasing is if you get a problem child car, at the end of the lease its not your problem anymore and you never have to worry about selling the car privately and revealing the troubled service history, accidents etc or trading it in getting hammered even more by the dealer.

golfster

Not trying to inflame anyone, but I've seen this myth now posted in two different threads. A quick research of blue book trade-in values shows little to no impact when a new engine is released, and trade-in values are more a factor of age and condition. If the release of a new engine triggers a drop in trade-in, the same effect would impact the trades on the E550 as well as all other cars when a newer version of that model includes an upgrade to a new engine. As an example, I know first hand a 2007 997 S didn't lose significant value simply as a result of the 2009 997.2 being equipped with the DI engine, but did lose a rather predictable amount based upon mileage and condition.

Using Kelly as a source (yes, we can dispute KBB, but it is at least as credible as an internet forum for such facts), here is what it shows:

• 2010 E350 - 24,000 miles, excellent condition = $42,450
• 2009 E350 - 36,000 miles, excellent condition = $33,375 (21.37% drop from following year, even with new body style in 2010)
• 2008 E350 - 48,000 miles, excellent condition = $28,050 (15.95% drop from following year)
• 2007 E350 - 60,000 miles, excellent condition = $22,600 (19.42% drop from following year)
• 2006 E350 - 72,000 miles, excellent condition = $17,875 (20.9% drop from following year)
• 2005 E320 - 84,000 miles, excellent condition = $14,750 (17.48% drop from following year. This was the last year of the E320 variant. Note, the 2006, first year of the E350 with the new motor suffered greater % loss in trade-in value)
• 2004 E320 - 96,000, excellent condition = $12,700 (13.89% drop from following year)
• 2003 E320 - 108,000, excellent condition = $10,700 (15.74% drop from the following year)

Besides the impact from a new body style, it seems in this case the greatest % loss in trade-in value came from the 1st year of a new motor rather than the last year of the previous motor.

Rest easy, my MBWorld brethren, the sky is not falling!!

**For sake of comparison, equipment packages were kept as close as possible; sport, multi-CD player, HK stereo, Nav, premium wheels, no leather.

RJC

Good info and thanks for posting. I'd like to see the Manheim auction results and/or what a dealership will actually pay someone looking to just sell them their car w/o a trade. I can almost assure you the longer you wait to get out of the current car (especially the 350) the worse it will be for you with the new powertrains and when they start showing up on the dealers lots.

911's thankfully have most always treated me well with respect to resale except for the 1999 996 I owned prior to the 997S, the rest from 1982-2007 have been excellent.

Curious, if you play pro golf?

K-A

All true.

The engines may affect it a tad, but recalling how the E320 to E350 switch went, most consumers and Dealers don't really know, or make an issue of it (or care). The E320 had the nameplate changed to E350, so that situation would have been more dire, but since the badge stays as "E350", I think (and hope) that the resale won't really be affected any more than it being a year older.

Having the facelift coming out right at the time my Lease is up is actually great, because I'll know what it's up against, and I'll have a better idea of what the real resale should be, but yeah, that will be another knock to resale. We'll see.

dbtk

Most drivers (not the ones on this forum) will not really know or recognize the difference in engines. That's probably why Mercedes no longer changes their model names with new engine sizes, i.e., the new 63s and 550s. Doing so will only adversely affect resale of the older engined cars.

K-A

Exactly. I think the only way that resale would truly and/or substantially be affected is if they changed the model name.

golfster

As you can see above in the Kelly Blue Book reference, even going from E320 to E350, both a model designation and engine change, had almost no impact. In fact, the E320 did not suffer greater loss in resale. Funny, the first year of the E350 (and new engine) experienced greater loss in value than the outgoing model and engine it replaced. The only examples that suffered more were the last year of the 211 and the first year of the 212, and those were likely more impacted by years of age, being in the first two years of service of a car's life = greatest depreciation, versus the last year of an engine or body.

Again, it's a myth that might be a reality in exotic cars with rare configurations, but not in high production cars like the E Class.

One can challenge Manheim is a better reference point, but not really. I don't take my car to Manheim auctions at time of disposal or trade, I take them to the dealer to trade in on the next car. I've never been offered or accepted less than Kelly Blue Book trade-in value on any car, including when I traded my '07 997S in '09 for a Cayenne S, which I traded at 21,000 miles because the 997 was rear-ended in a parking lot. No significant diminished value due to the accident, and no devastating loss of value because the '09 997.2 S's were then equipped (starting in '09) with newer, better, more powerful Direct Injection engines putting out greater horsepower and better 0-60 times. Even in a sports car, no "new engine causing the values to sink" drop in value.

Drive your cars and enjoy them until you are ready for the next car. You will get fair trade on the old, and if recent trends continue, a significant discount on the new car you are buying...that simple. And while we all know M-B's, like most cars, experience significant depreciation in the first two years of service, at least the oldest in the example above ('03) is still trading for $10K, even with 108K miles, per KBB. Just imagine what that car could demand if it had the exotic leather hydes instead of M-B Tex! (Not knocking M-B Tex, in fact, I like it and remember it being in the M-B's of old, including a neighbor's 450SL, which looked great for many, many years.) But with leather, that '03 above probably could have demanded $20K or more!!

RJC

Manheim/auctions are where most of the dealers dispose the
cars they can't sell after usually 90 days sitting on their used car lots and it's also where the Black Book pricing gets based upon and it's the Black Book that most dealers use to determine what your car is worth to them.
Once you have a trade in done to purchase another vehicle the pricing becomes quite convoluted and the only way to know what your cars value really is would be to sell it outright to the dealer without a trade in, and I can assure you once the 12's are sitting next to new left over 11's the value of your used 350 will drop even lower; the new powertrains with their improved power and 20% jump in fuel economy (which is much more important now with high gas prices than it was was the 350 debuted and 320 went away) will only enhance the difference.

Some of the early DFI 997s (2009's) were having significant oil burning and excessive soot issues which helped prop up the value of low milage extra clean used 997's especially 07-08' six speeds. There were also several left over brand new '09 911's sitting unsold on my dealer's lot in West Palm Beach as recent as about 8 mos ago.

I'd suggest if anyone here has any doubts about what I'm saying wait until the 12's are plentiful and there are left over new 11's sitting on the same lot parked next to the new 12's and see what they'll pay you for your used non DFI 350; I can assure you it won't be pretty.

I'd also suggest you take your car to the dealer/Car max etc and get a non trade in cash price in writing for your car to see the real current value and use it as a baseline for what's to come in about 4-5 mos

If you're leasing then it's of no real significance unless you're trying to get out of your lease early.

wireless200

I've noticed 2011 E-350's w/gas engine are going for under invoice now. For example a standard config with p1 can be had for under $50k now. They will probably drop a little further once the '12s arrive.

How about the Saab 9-5? This new model received good reviews and they can't give them away. Saw a commercial on TV last week where they are offering $10k off msrp. I figure that would be the starting point to negotiate down further.

On the local dealer's lot there are plenty of new '10s left in addition to the '11s. Of course the company is having its troubles but it will be bought and I wouldn't anticipate any trouble getting parts even if they crash completely. I figure you could get a brand new 2010 $48k 9-5 Aero for the mid-30's. I'd like to have an E but the 9-5 is a good car and the economic case is compelling.

RJC

I don't know much about Saab's, are they still owned by GM or were they spun off recently?

220S

fwiw, there was a poll and discussion started by AMG in Germany on the MBUSA/AMG forum (for AMG owners) about continuing with the 63 designation. And also in a chat session with MBUSA AMG product managers. To continue to use the 63 is historical. It's in recognition of the early AMG Roten Sau (Red Pig) which was a 300SEL 6.3 model (although with a 6.8 AMG built motor.) In fact the 63 has (had) a 6.2 liter and not a 6.3 liter motor. But the choice to use the 63 designation was (and still is) based on history and not engine size. http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/0...415796,00.html

220S

Owned by Spyker.

RJC

Has quality and/or technology taken a leap forward since this occurred since the ownership change?

220S

fwiw, no dealer ever uses KBB. They use the Black Book (NAR) NAR pricing is adjusted and released weekly. NAR attends auctions every week and publishes the dealer pricing book from that data. They only use KBB when they want to sell you a used car. Black Book is used for the trade-in pricing. If you get KBB on your trade-in then the dealer is making its margin on the deal itself.

Manheim is key because it represents what a dealer can dump the car for when it sits too long collecting interest charges on inventory. It's the dealer's safety net. No dealer will buy your car outright (whithout making $$ on a new sale deal) for more than current auction pricing. And since NAR is based on current auctions, then Manheim the best gauge of current value. Any car's current value is based on numerous factors, both social and economic.

Private sale market is whatever somebody is willing to sell for and whatever the buyer is willing to pay. Its a pretty useless gauge.

220S

Nobody knows since Spyker (a Dutch company) hasn't really gotten things off the ground yet. But it all sounds a bit dicey.

The last I heard a month ago: http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2011/04/...-restart-saab/

RJC

Interesting article. I have a little experience being around Spyker's and from what I observed the fit and finish was quite good; loved the turned aluminum dash.

I noticed you referenced the mighty 300SEL 6.3 earlier, I drove one of these extensively years ago...what a monster. Also spent lots of time with a 280SE 4.5 cabriolet, triple black, what a sweet car. Both of these were a good friend's cars and he graciously would let me use them for extended periods of time; I also let him borrow my 930 turbo in return...those were the days and they don't build either the Porsche's or the MB's like that anymore.

wireless200

Looks like they got financing from China after the first Chinese deal fell through. I'm going to go drive one with my wife. No hurry though. It looks like the cars will be on the lot the rest of the year.

I can't understand a dealer paying interest on those 2010s for what must have been over a year though. They would be better off dropping the price further and getting them off the lot.

The 9-5s sure get good reviews though. I'm thinking I could drive out of there in a nearly $50k 9-5 for the mid to upper 30s easy. That's a hard deal to pass up if the car is good.

K-A

I personally would never trade my car into the Dealer, total waste of $$$$, as you will always get a good margin higher selling Private Party.

Of course once the '12's come in, the '11's will be given out for cheaper, and the Used '10's and '11's will go down in price, this is simple and common depreciation.

I guarantee, when the Dealers are selling Used 2010 or 2011 E350's, they won't be marking them down any more due to old motors, and they will be marked down as regularly as any 1-year older E-Class would be. This is a better indication of how the Used market will be to the car.

K-A

Also, speaking on depreciation. Last night I checked out the prices on '08 E350's, to get an idea of what market value of my car should be in 3 years, and using this as a generous example, since the W211 is a body style old (much more devastating to resale usually than a new engine, or even new badging moniker), and CPO models with 20-40K Miles are still going for low-high $30's. The Used Market is very strong right now, however, so it all really depends on the state of the economy. For example, in '08/'09, prices on '08/'09 models were almost as much as they are now (being now that they are 2-3 years old), that's how good the deals were when the car market was in the tank. Cars will always depreciate very heavily in the first 2 years, but it usually starts dropping much more conservatively afterward. Of course, making the E-Classes MSRP a joke by way of U.S Dealers giving ludicrous discount on them isn't helping resale at all.

I really hope that "55" is being pushed by everyone. The 63 moniker is ridiculous with the new power-train! Plus, IMO the "63" name doesn't have the modern cache as the "55" name does. I understand the tie to the classic models, but it's really a disservice to the old model, to try and wrongfully use its name to sell a car that has a motor that is far and away from its offered Liters.

BudC

Over the years, I always paid cash for my cars and sold the old car myself. When I ordered a 2008 E350 I just didn't feel like trying sell our 2004 E320 so I traded it. Of course the used car manager had me by the short hairs and despite the car being a mint, low mileage car with leather, P1, etc., I got an offer below KBB.

I wasn't going to let that happen again so about a month before my 2011 E550 was do to arrive in LA, I put the 2008 up for sale. I sold it a few days before the E550 arrived.

There is an inducement in Arizona to trade your car. You only pay sales tax on the balance due rather than on the total price. The sales tax was 9.3% but in spite of that, I'm sure I saved some money.

golfster

RJC,

I missed your question earlier about golf. No, I am not a pro and some would even argue I'm not a player, but I am terribly addicted to the game.

RJC

I was too, until an epidural injection to help my spine caused some nerve damage (stay away from these things in/around the spine as their complication rates are highly under-reported). Anyway I was hoping you were playing at TPC Sawgrass today

RJC

Isn't there a tax consequence/lost benefit when one doesn't trade through a dealership? Sales tax?

golfster

I'm sorry to hear of your experience. It seems medical science remains inexact and I would not look forward to an epidural. I had should surgery due to overplay and a tear to the rotator cuff, and that was bad enough for me.

I've been to the TPC Sawgrass event a few times. A friend of mine does work for the PGA and lives at Sawgrass. If only I could play at half that caliber.

golfster

Here in CA, we pay tax on the total, not on the difference. I can't remember in IL, but will soon find out as my wife is starting to give hints at wanting another car.