first oil change
#26
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Porsche 991S, Cayenne S, 1972 BMW 3.0CS E9 Coupe
See before Hydrocracker refining there was a big gap in performance between synthetics and dino oils. When Hydrocracker came and replaced solvent refining it made the dino oil so pure that it mimicked the qualities of the synthetics at the time. As you know Mobil sued Castrol but the API ruled in favor of Castrol as stating that Synthetic in oil denotes a performance standard, that to which hydrocracker refined crude oils could mimick. So now we have 2 oils, one that is crude, one that is synthetic and now they are both labeled synthetic according to the ruling the API set forth as it being a standard of performance vs how it was made.
So to be specific when refering to synthetic oils, we need to refer to them as either "true" synthetic class 4 POA's, or hydrocracker refined class 3 oil, also called synthetic. If we say synthetic is man made, in reality and all other instances I can think of YES, synthetic is man made, BUT when we are talking oil, it is not, at least not in most cases. That's why I say just the word synthetic throws everyone off, cause defining it, it means man made or synthesized. The API is the one who drew line that when crossed you could be called synthetic, hydrocracker refining crossed it.
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I'd be happy with just having API classifications: e.g., 1,2,3,4, etc., on the label that all mfgs have to follow precisely. When mfgs start using marketing terms like Super Syn or Tri-Syn or Spectra Syn, it all gets misleading and opaque, imho.
#28
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Okay. Anyway, my head doesn't hurt anymore
It kind of goes back to my post #18; we get lost in literal definitions when we are really dealing with specific API categories and definitions, etc.. Although the industry and mfgs don't make it any easier. And sometimes they aren't quite transparent about explaining it. Plus this misuse of the terminology does really come from way back when syn oil was relatively new on the market (pre-hydrocracker refining.) But nonetheless, this dino versus syn oil mindset still persists and esp on oil/car forums, etc..
I'd be happy with just having API classifications: e.g., 1,2,3,4, etc., on the label that all mfgs have to follow precisely. When mfgs start using marketing terms like Super Syn or Tri-Syn or Spectra Syn, it all gets misleading and opaque, imho.
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I'd be happy with just having API classifications: e.g., 1,2,3,4, etc., on the label that all mfgs have to follow precisely. When mfgs start using marketing terms like Super Syn or Tri-Syn or Spectra Syn, it all gets misleading and opaque, imho.
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#29
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you guys know more about oil then I know about pornography, lol
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11 E350 4M
#31
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they are throwing down some serious knowledge about some oil......
there are several people, that when they post: I read........
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#33
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2010 Mercedes-Benz E350 4matic
One of the reasons why I don't use API standards is because it is substandard to the european ACEA system. I look for the oil to meet ACEA A5/B5 spec which is for long drain intervals and better yet the A3/B4 spec which is for the oil to withstand the highest abuse. If the oil has those two ratings, 10,000 mile oils drains would be a cinch for this oil.
#34
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Chris, I wouldn't call Royal Purple superior per se but it is a Grp IV synthetic(Polyalphaolefins) which is a 100% synthetic oil and it has a great reputation in the racing world. I am now using Red Line 0w40 and I think I will stick with it since it has really quieted down my engine and lifters.
The company that was doing my UOA's was Stalevey Labs but I think they just got bought out by another company so its called something different. If I find the name I'll post it here.
Thanks.
The company that was doing my UOA's was Stalevey Labs but I think they just got bought out by another company so its called something different. If I find the name I'll post it here.
Thanks.
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2010 Mercedes-Benz E350 4matic
#37
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Wow a lot of very interesting info, you guys sure know your oil
Question to you, I put on maybe 4k miles / year on the car. No towing, or desert, but a bunch of short trips in Chicago burbs. Mostly 40-50 speed zones. Now I change the oil once a year. Do you think I should just keep going by the 10k miles and ignore the time span, or perhaps increase that to 1.5 years or more?
I guess getting it tested at 1 year and using that as my bases for the decision would be best. Still wondering what you guy's think.
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Question to you, I put on maybe 4k miles / year on the car. No towing, or desert, but a bunch of short trips in Chicago burbs. Mostly 40-50 speed zones. Now I change the oil once a year. Do you think I should just keep going by the 10k miles and ignore the time span, or perhaps increase that to 1.5 years or more?
I guess getting it tested at 1 year and using that as my bases for the decision would be best. Still wondering what you guy's think.
#38
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To clarify some more I'm worried about water collecting in the oil as I have many short trips and the engine never gets a chance to warm up and evaporate this moisture. Maybe I should change it more often?
This is the case for both of our cars, the 03 CLK with 36k miles and the 2011 E with now 4k miles.
This is the case for both of our cars, the 03 CLK with 36k miles and the 2011 E with now 4k miles.
#39
Super Member
Wow a lot of very interesting info, you guys sure know your oil
Question to you, I put on maybe 4k miles / year on the car. No towing, or desert, but a bunch of short trips in Chicago burbs. Mostly 40-50 speed zones. Now I change the oil once a year. Do you think I should just keep going by the 10k miles and ignore the time span, or perhaps increase that to 1.5 years or more?
I guess getting it tested at 1 year and using that as my bases for the decision would be best. Still wondering what you guy's think.
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Question to you, I put on maybe 4k miles / year on the car. No towing, or desert, but a bunch of short trips in Chicago burbs. Mostly 40-50 speed zones. Now I change the oil once a year. Do you think I should just keep going by the 10k miles and ignore the time span, or perhaps increase that to 1.5 years or more?
I guess getting it tested at 1 year and using that as my bases for the decision would be best. Still wondering what you guy's think.
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^^Brad if you don't change your oil 10,000 miles or 1 year which ever comes first according to the FSS MB can void your powertrain warranty!
#41
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well my CLk is out of warranty by now so no issues there, as for the 2001 E, well I do not want to loose that there. Still from the purely technical point, whats the recommended interval in time? 1 year?
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fwiw, here's from BTOG:
"Condensation and fuel contamination are issues. Normally, excess fuel boils out during driving along with moisture, but if the engine is not run long enough to get up to temperature and held there for a period of time, both fuel and water will become a problem. With frequent but short trips, oil should be changed more often than once a year. "
#43
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All the boutique oils like Amsoil, Redline, and Royal Purple say that their oils should be changed out every year despite mileage. And so does Mobil 1. One big problem is condensation, like you mentioned. If you're doing short trips where the engine's not even getting hot enough to burn off the moisture, I'd definitely change it out. Maybe even 2x a year. An oil change isn't a lot of money if that's the concern. An inconvenience, maybe.
fwiw, here's from BTOG:
"Condensation and fuel contamination are issues. Normally, excess fuel boils out during driving along with moisture, but if the engine is not run long enough to get up to temperature and held there for a period of time, both fuel and water will become a problem. With frequent but short trips, oil should be changed more often than once a year. "
fwiw, here's from BTOG:
"Condensation and fuel contamination are issues. Normally, excess fuel boils out during driving along with moisture, but if the engine is not run long enough to get up to temperature and held there for a period of time, both fuel and water will become a problem. With frequent but short trips, oil should be changed more often than once a year. "
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#44
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1953 300 Adenauer, 1971 300 SEL 6.3, 1975 600, 1978 450 6.9
Oh crap. Regardless of the forum, there are always the Royal Poopie and amSOIL fanbois.
Oil is very simple. All major car manufacturers spend lots of time and money determining the type of oil suitable for their cars. Those oils will carry the certification on the label. The use of a "non-certified" oil will cause the dealer to refuse warranty service on lubrication related failures.
RP and amSOIL are not certified by ANY manufacturers and it is unlikely that they meet any of the specs.
Europe has used 30k km (roughly 18k miles) or three year oil change intervals since the mid 90's.
Follow the car manufacturer's oil change intervals and the required approved fluids and you will not have a lubrication related issues. Using non-approved fluids is a crap shoot.
Oil is very simple. All major car manufacturers spend lots of time and money determining the type of oil suitable for their cars. Those oils will carry the certification on the label. The use of a "non-certified" oil will cause the dealer to refuse warranty service on lubrication related failures.
RP and amSOIL are not certified by ANY manufacturers and it is unlikely that they meet any of the specs.
Europe has used 30k km (roughly 18k miles) or three year oil change intervals since the mid 90's.
Follow the car manufacturer's oil change intervals and the required approved fluids and you will not have a lubrication related issues. Using non-approved fluids is a crap shoot.
#45
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I'm in the same boat as you. I don't worry so much about the time interval so much as I do the miles. I think it's been over a yr since I changed my oil last. I do know the oil will oxidize and degenerate over time when exposed to the elements, but not sure on the exact rate at which it does this. My show truck gets an oil change about once every 2 yrs but it only had like 300 miles on the oil. It looked like it was fresh out of the bottle.
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MB W212; NISSAN R35; BMW E60
don't forget about oil detergent eating seals. I am hearing rumors of some major OEMs and oil mfgs trying to keep a lid on that now... Also many of the OEM motors these days are just slapped together haphazardly - I'd change oil just to be safe every 3-5k miles if you plan to drive 150k miles on your car...
#47
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All in all I have a very hard time beliving that modern syntactic oil including any additives degrade in a year with light use to a point where it has to be changed or it will have some major or even significant negative effect on the engine. Its like expiration on pain killers or vitamins etc, do you honestly think that on the expiration date the product stops working or is it more to do with 'sell them a replacement'?
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1953 300 Adenauer, 1971 300 SEL 6.3, 1975 600, 1978 450 6.9
Honestly I think it has more to do with the cost of certification not the quality of the oil. My experience is that a bigger company is much more likely to cut costs and in the end offer an inferior product just to save a few $. Smaller companies that have to compete with the much larger ones need to offer something of greater value other then we are 'exclusive' label.
And that is part of the problem. We'll never know if that swill meets or exceeds specs. We just know that it hasn't been tested so we know it'll cause warranty issues.
Is this a fact? Does MB states 18k miles in the user manual for EU market? That would be very interesting. I need to check with family members in Europe.
Here's an excerpt from the MB UK website. I couldn't find the one on the German site
"Service ASSYST Fixed Intervals, 2007-OnwardsMany models produced from 2007 have fixed service intervals. Services alternate from A to B and occur every 15,500miles or after one year, whichever comes sooner. These fixed service intervals make it easier for you to plan your servicing around your schedule, making it less likely for you to miss a service.
All in all I have a very hard time beliving that modern syntactic oil including any additives degrade in a year with light use to a point where it has to be changed or it will have some major or even significant negative effect on the engine. Its like expiration on pain killers or vitamins etc, do you honestly think that on the expiration date the product stops working or is it more to do with 'sell them a replacement'?
And that is part of the problem. We'll never know if that swill meets or exceeds specs. We just know that it hasn't been tested so we know it'll cause warranty issues.
Is this a fact? Does MB states 18k miles in the user manual for EU market? That would be very interesting. I need to check with family members in Europe.
Here's an excerpt from the MB UK website. I couldn't find the one on the German site
"Service ASSYST Fixed Intervals, 2007-OnwardsMany models produced from 2007 have fixed service intervals. Services alternate from A to B and occur every 15,500miles or after one year, whichever comes sooner. These fixed service intervals make it easier for you to plan your servicing around your schedule, making it less likely for you to miss a service.
All in all I have a very hard time beliving that modern syntactic oil including any additives degrade in a year with light use to a point where it has to be changed or it will have some major or even significant negative effect on the engine. Its like expiration on pain killers or vitamins etc, do you honestly think that on the expiration date the product stops working or is it more to do with 'sell them a replacement'?
#49
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Great read
, plenty of easter eggs of info here, new understandings and as well, confirmation for the ones I have picked up along the way (always good to hear that!), from Popular Science first test on M1 to many since then, even before the internet. Some publications I get, that have had a heyday of recent with the ZDDP (start a new thread for this please, don’t make this one any longer!) confusion eluded one more easter egg I wanted to contribute to the base of knowledge here, this was in Engine Rebuilders Mag, they serve the trade of those that rebuilding motorcycles, passenger cars, to semi’s, NASCAR to Top Fuel to you name it, but more important is they get other experts to assist in their articles, the one I am bringing up here was a quote from a chemist from Conoco, that said what we knew but a bit more that I found very interesting! Condensation in an engine, no brainer, fuel dilution as well, especially with a cold engine/rich fuel mix, to me it seemed fuel would evaporate better than moisture, but I was wrong, he/Conoco chemist stated that fuel has many types of hydrocarbons (I knew that part at least) but not all evaporate the same, some heavier hydrocarbons take longer to evaporate out
, and if not fully gone, will stay with the oil, adding to its dilution.
I too read it many times over that it’s the kind of mileage, condition of your engine, and time based as in 1 year for the M1 most of us use.
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I too read it many times over that it’s the kind of mileage, condition of your engine, and time based as in 1 year for the M1 most of us use.
#50
Super Member
Yes, 2 reasons you change oil, to replenish your additive package and dispose of the contiminants.