E550 vs BMW 550i
02-14-2014, 09:37 PM
#151
Senior Member
Where are the numbers then? Pretty please? 
Numbers for the coupe, too. Seems I see 30 sedans for every coupe - I don't know if it is the answer, rather than that the price/value equation of the E might simply be more attractive to the average mid-lux buyer.
I also don't know if the facelift is "haphazard". The original design was in production for 4 years, and as MB is going for a softer curvier style, it was both an update as is typical for the E at middle age, and to bring it in line with the corporate look.
Regarding the leases, BMW is blowing out their cars just as much as MB. If the E has higher margins and can sell marginally cheaper, so what? It's almost as new car sales are mostly based on leases, to produce cars for the CPO lots where people actually buy. It's the same for both brands. When I see a $450 E lease on TV, I will take notice. At least in my area, I've never seen anything close.
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But seriously, the Global Sales of the F10 crush the E, no comparison. And again, the F10 did this for the first time ever, INSTANTLY. It's exactly why Mercedes has internally considered the W212 generation an upset and tried to haphazardly change it as much as they can for the facelift.
Those leases on the F10 were probably 528i's during Holiday bonus sales time. During which I got leases for mid-high $300's on facelifted E350's sent to me constantly. Seriously, no car in history that sells in such high volumes has been discounted as largely and consistently as the W212, which coincides with the 5 Series overtaking of market share at such a rapid pace during this generation alone, and M-B's reconstructive, about-face facelift. The only reason the E "looks" like it sells more in the U.S is not even because of the unforseen discounts, but because the C chassis "E Coupe" is accounted for in those sales, giving an impression that the E Sedan sells more than it actually does.[/QUOTE]
Numbers for the coupe, too. Seems I see 30 sedans for every coupe - I don't know if it is the answer, rather than that the price/value equation of the E might simply be more attractive to the average mid-lux buyer.
I also don't know if the facelift is "haphazard". The original design was in production for 4 years, and as MB is going for a softer curvier style, it was both an update as is typical for the E at middle age, and to bring it in line with the corporate look.
Regarding the leases, BMW is blowing out their cars just as much as MB. If the E has higher margins and can sell marginally cheaper, so what? It's almost as new car sales are mostly based on leases, to produce cars for the CPO lots where people actually buy. It's the same for both brands. When I see a $450 E lease on TV, I will take notice. At least in my area, I've never seen anything close.
-------------------
But seriously, the Global Sales of the F10 crush the E, no comparison. And again, the F10 did this for the first time ever, INSTANTLY. It's exactly why Mercedes has internally considered the W212 generation an upset and tried to haphazardly change it as much as they can for the facelift.
Those leases on the F10 were probably 528i's during Holiday bonus sales time. During which I got leases for mid-high $300's on facelifted E350's sent to me constantly. Seriously, no car in history that sells in such high volumes has been discounted as largely and consistently as the W212, which coincides with the 5 Series overtaking of market share at such a rapid pace during this generation alone, and M-B's reconstructive, about-face facelift. The only reason the E "looks" like it sells more in the U.S is not even because of the unforseen discounts, but because the C chassis "E Coupe" is accounted for in those sales, giving an impression that the E Sedan sells more than it actually does.[/QUOTE]
02-14-2014, 10:46 PM
#152
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
The E facelift is beyond a "normal update", lol. C'mon, you guys will look past anything to give M-B the benefit of the doubt. It looks like a Chinese-imitation-car of the W212, like they grafted on all these new elements that look nothing like the core architecture. It looks like a kit car. M-B even tried to LIE about it and say it was an "all new generation" and some magazines even therefore called it a "W213".
Internal executives at M-B were like Chickens with their heads cut off after the F10 killed the W212 in sales, and so they changed every gimmick they endlessly promoted when the W212-V1 launched. It seems EVERY design from M-B these days is a "mistake" to the executives, like they can't stand behind their own work and have no confidence. So now when you get an M-B, you can rest assured that it won't be timeless like previous M-B's, that M-B will call it a "mistake" and do some major reconstructive about-face facelift, which isn't what a premium brand is supposed to do to their early adopters.
If M-B's management team would just learn from the F10, they'd see why so many around the world choose it than the less expensive E Class: Because BMW designed it perfectly from the beginning, and while M-B were frantically taking off all the original gimmicky elements, to put on all new gimmicky elements, making the W212-V2 look like the most disorganized, imbalanced, oddly mismatched car in M-B's recent history, BMW said "our design is perfect, timeless from the beginning, and needs barely, if any any aesthetic alternations done for the facelift".
It's like investing in a company. You want to invest in a company that has foresight, that treats its own products with respect and stands behind them, and gets them right from the get-go. That fact I think is why so many go with the F10 around the world. It's a timeless car with no trend/passe gimmicks that needed to be removed and replaced, just a holistically balanced and gorgeous design that didn't need any tweaking as BMW treated it like their "art" while M-B board room members seemed to have a total say on the W212 V1 and V2's (hence the discordance), and its own facelift didn't even date it, while the W212-V1 now prematurely looks a whole generation behind, however awkwardly similar to the facelift.
This thread asks "E550 vs 550i", well having had E350's and a 535i, this is my argument on the side of the BMW. Even on a Mercedes board, you can't expect it all to be one way to stroke your own car choice ego's. (no fun in that).
Internal executives at M-B were like Chickens with their heads cut off after the F10 killed the W212 in sales, and so they changed every gimmick they endlessly promoted when the W212-V1 launched. It seems EVERY design from M-B these days is a "mistake" to the executives, like they can't stand behind their own work and have no confidence. So now when you get an M-B, you can rest assured that it won't be timeless like previous M-B's, that M-B will call it a "mistake" and do some major reconstructive about-face facelift, which isn't what a premium brand is supposed to do to their early adopters.
If M-B's management team would just learn from the F10, they'd see why so many around the world choose it than the less expensive E Class: Because BMW designed it perfectly from the beginning, and while M-B were frantically taking off all the original gimmicky elements, to put on all new gimmicky elements, making the W212-V2 look like the most disorganized, imbalanced, oddly mismatched car in M-B's recent history, BMW said "our design is perfect, timeless from the beginning, and needs barely, if any any aesthetic alternations done for the facelift".
It's like investing in a company. You want to invest in a company that has foresight, that treats its own products with respect and stands behind them, and gets them right from the get-go. That fact I think is why so many go with the F10 around the world. It's a timeless car with no trend/passe gimmicks that needed to be removed and replaced, just a holistically balanced and gorgeous design that didn't need any tweaking as BMW treated it like their "art" while M-B board room members seemed to have a total say on the W212 V1 and V2's (hence the discordance), and its own facelift didn't even date it, while the W212-V1 now prematurely looks a whole generation behind, however awkwardly similar to the facelift.
This thread asks "E550 vs 550i", well having had E350's and a 535i, this is my argument on the side of the BMW. Even on a Mercedes board, you can't expect it all to be one way to stroke your own car choice ego's. (no fun in that).
02-15-2014, 12:03 AM
#153
Senior Member
But where are those sales numbers? Still curious about that claim 
I agree the facelift makes a situation where the front and rear don't seamlessly integrate with the sides, but if one examines W222, W205, C117 etc as the way of the future, it's a stop-gap until the W213 exists. I don't recall any credible sources calling the FL a W213 nor an official communication using the words "all new". There's a hilarious amount of hyperbole here (gimmicky elements? on the pre FL car? Seriously?). I'll say again that W124, W210, W211 all received significant midlife updates. This isn't something new.
Regarding the design direction, I suspect there's been some kind of personnel shakeup, as angular quickly ceded back to curvy or rounded. Just because a suit makes a healthy 6 figures doesn't mean he knows crap. However, sales and profits continue to be strong...so maybe the suits know just a little something.
Regarding the gushing words about the supposed beauty of the F10, I guess that was needed after some of the IMO homely detailing of the E60, inside and out.
Sales numbers? Please?
I agree the facelift makes a situation where the front and rear don't seamlessly integrate with the sides, but if one examines W222, W205, C117 etc as the way of the future, it's a stop-gap until the W213 exists. I don't recall any credible sources calling the FL a W213 nor an official communication using the words "all new". There's a hilarious amount of hyperbole here (gimmicky elements? on the pre FL car? Seriously?). I'll say again that W124, W210, W211 all received significant midlife updates. This isn't something new.
Regarding the design direction, I suspect there's been some kind of personnel shakeup, as angular quickly ceded back to curvy or rounded. Just because a suit makes a healthy 6 figures doesn't mean he knows crap. However, sales and profits continue to be strong...so maybe the suits know just a little something.
Regarding the gushing words about the supposed beauty of the F10, I guess that was needed after some of the IMO homely detailing of the E60, inside and out.
Sales numbers? Please?
The E facelift is beyond a "normal update", lol. C'mon, you guys will look past anything to give M-B the benefit of the doubt. It looks like a Chinese-imitation-car of the W212, like they grafted on all these new elements that look nothing like the core architecture. It looks like a kit car. M-B even tried to LIE about it and say it was an "all new generation" and some magazines even therefore called it a "W213".
Internal executives at M-B were like Chickens with their heads cut off after the F10 killed the W212 in sales, and so they changed every gimmick they endlessly promoted when the W212-V1 launched. It seems EVERY design from M-B these days is a "mistake" to the executives, like they can't stand behind their own work and have no confidence. So now when you get an M-B, you can rest assured that it won't be timeless like previous M-B's, that M-B will call it a "mistake" and do some major reconstructive about-face facelift, which isn't what a premium brand is supposed to do to their early adopters.
If M-B's management team would just learn from the F10, they'd see why so many around the world choose it than the less expensive E Class: Because BMW designed it perfectly from the beginning, and while M-B were frantically taking off all the original gimmicky elements, to put on all new gimmicky elements, making the W212-V2 look like the most disorganized, imbalanced, oddly mismatched car in M-B's recent history, BMW said "our design is perfect, timeless from the beginning, and needs barely, if any any aesthetic alternations done for the facelift".
It's like investing in a company. You want to invest in a company that has foresight, that treats its own products with respect and stands behind them, and gets them right from the get-go. That fact I think is why so many go with the F10 around the world. It's a timeless car with no trend/passe gimmicks that needed to be removed and replaced, just a holistically balanced and gorgeous design that didn't need any tweaking as BMW treated it like their "art" while M-B board room members seemed to have a total say on the W212 V1 and V2's (hence the discordance), and its own facelift didn't even date it, while the W212-V1 now prematurely looks a whole generation behind, however awkwardly similar to the facelift.
This thread asks "E550 vs 550i", well having had E350's and a 535i, this is my argument on the side of the BMW. Even on a Mercedes board, you can't expect it all to be one way to stroke your own car choice ego's. (no fun in that).
Internal executives at M-B were like Chickens with their heads cut off after the F10 killed the W212 in sales, and so they changed every gimmick they endlessly promoted when the W212-V1 launched. It seems EVERY design from M-B these days is a "mistake" to the executives, like they can't stand behind their own work and have no confidence. So now when you get an M-B, you can rest assured that it won't be timeless like previous M-B's, that M-B will call it a "mistake" and do some major reconstructive about-face facelift, which isn't what a premium brand is supposed to do to their early adopters.
If M-B's management team would just learn from the F10, they'd see why so many around the world choose it than the less expensive E Class: Because BMW designed it perfectly from the beginning, and while M-B were frantically taking off all the original gimmicky elements, to put on all new gimmicky elements, making the W212-V2 look like the most disorganized, imbalanced, oddly mismatched car in M-B's recent history, BMW said "our design is perfect, timeless from the beginning, and needs barely, if any any aesthetic alternations done for the facelift".
It's like investing in a company. You want to invest in a company that has foresight, that treats its own products with respect and stands behind them, and gets them right from the get-go. That fact I think is why so many go with the F10 around the world. It's a timeless car with no trend/passe gimmicks that needed to be removed and replaced, just a holistically balanced and gorgeous design that didn't need any tweaking as BMW treated it like their "art" while M-B board room members seemed to have a total say on the W212 V1 and V2's (hence the discordance), and its own facelift didn't even date it, while the W212-V1 now prematurely looks a whole generation behind, however awkwardly similar to the facelift.
This thread asks "E550 vs 550i", well having had E350's and a 535i, this is my argument on the side of the BMW. Even on a Mercedes board, you can't expect it all to be one way to stroke your own car choice ego's. (no fun in that).
02-15-2014, 01:30 AM
#154
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Two years ago you were extolling the wonders of your then new W212 E350. Now that you have done a total 180, your credibility is laughable.
Last edited by DerekACS; 02-15-2014 at 01:33 AM.
02-15-2014, 04:30 AM
#156
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But where are those sales numbers? Still curious about that claim
I agree the facelift makes a situation where the front and rear don't seamlessly integrate with the sides, but if one examines W222, W205, C117 etc as the way of the future, it's a stop-gap until the W213 exists. I don't recall any credible sources calling the FL a W213 nor an official communication using the words "all new". There's a hilarious amount of hyperbole here (gimmicky elements? on the pre FL car? Seriously?). I'll say again that W124, W210, W211 all received significant midlife updates. This isn't something new.
Regarding the design direction, I suspect there's been some kind of personnel shakeup, as angular quickly ceded back to curvy or rounded. Just because a suit makes a healthy 6 figures doesn't mean he knows crap. However, sales and profits continue to be strong...so maybe the suits know just a little something.
Regarding the gushing words about the supposed beauty of the F10, I guess that was needed after some of the IMO homely detailing of the E60, inside and out.
Sales numbers? Please?
I agree the facelift makes a situation where the front and rear don't seamlessly integrate with the sides, but if one examines W222, W205, C117 etc as the way of the future, it's a stop-gap until the W213 exists. I don't recall any credible sources calling the FL a W213 nor an official communication using the words "all new". There's a hilarious amount of hyperbole here (gimmicky elements? on the pre FL car? Seriously?). I'll say again that W124, W210, W211 all received significant midlife updates. This isn't something new.
Regarding the design direction, I suspect there's been some kind of personnel shakeup, as angular quickly ceded back to curvy or rounded. Just because a suit makes a healthy 6 figures doesn't mean he knows crap. However, sales and profits continue to be strong...so maybe the suits know just a little something.
Regarding the gushing words about the supposed beauty of the F10, I guess that was needed after some of the IMO homely detailing of the E60, inside and out.
Sales numbers? Please?
2012 Global Sales:
-5 Series: ("solidified its position as segment leader"): 337,929
-E Class: 224,127
2013 Global Sales:
-5 Series: 366,992 ("The BMW 5 Series also strengthened its position as segment leader")
-E Class: 242,562
http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-715...0-0-0-0-0.html
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/p...item=node__804
http://www.autospies.com/news/BMW-Br...s-Crown-74210/
There are definitely internal struggles at M-B. When it comes to Mercedes I tend to speak in hyperboles, however it's all in truth in impression and I have lots of reasons to back them up. Their designs keep shifting around. They went from super smooth to super angular, then immediately back to smooth, whilst there are some angular models still out. Hence the massive discordance and imbalance on their facelifts, such as the W212. The ML and SL are rumored to be yet again "designs that Daimler Execs aren't happy with" therefore will receive cheapo-car like makeovers (i.e because premium products are supposed to stand the test of time, at least during their own production runs). So when you get a new M-B today, you have no idea whether they'll admit "failure" on it tomorrow.
C'mon, the W211 facelift was no big change as that design was a market leader and needed little changed (and was sans passe gimmicks). The W212 had a HUGE surgery, massive. M-B for the first time changed the side lines, the whole rear quarter panel, the ENTIRE front, hood, changed the entire light structure and shape, and put a friggin' weird looking Star grille for the first time ever. No M-B has ever been so dramatically about-face changed. As for the E60, it was one of the worst designs indeed. Barf.
I agree with your points and observations, however. I think the pre-facelift W212 is stunning, I love it just as much as I did when I had it. I don't like the kind of crude and cheap-ish (but high quality constructed and durable seeming) interior, nor the way it drives, but I love the way it looks. The facelift ruined the whole "legacy" of this generation to me.
Also, yes M-B are doing okay now, but remember, they lost the global sales title to BMW years ago, and now they even lost it to Audi! Their stock has lagged the entire industry for years. They went from #1 to #3 in less than a decade. Their market share has diminished AND they have by far the largest fleet of cars out of all their competitors, including little FWD MPV minibuses which means they SHOULD sell the most by far. IMO it has to do with constantly shifting and nonsensical design pattern and just poor business executions (i.e constant about-faces and doubts). I don't like what Dr. Z has done with the brand.
Sales numbers in the *U.S* wise: To start, the "E" Coupe probably sells 1,500-2K units a month in the U.S, so the 5 Sedan most certainly outsells the E Sedan even WITH the fact that you can lease E350's for the prices of 328i's (i.e F10's lease for a lot more, and on average sell for higher MSRP's as W212's seem to all be "Average Joe/Jane bare bones Lease spec". M-B also ruined the presence of the car by making ALL models generically equipped with the "AMG Sport Package" (which they can't even call AMG anymore as it's whored out for free). BMW keeps the M Sport Package priced at a premium, so many of us can fortunately pay up for it and enjoy some exclusivity. Variety and diversity within a particular car model goes a long way in preserving presence, premium cachet and timeless virtues, when it's seen in such large numbers. Otherwise it just looks like a "fleet spec" car where they all look alike, like your generic Camry's, Accords, etc.
Actually, I still love the pre-facelift W212. It's a work of art when looked at at the right angles. One of my favorite modern M-B designs. But the cheeseball about-face surgery on the facelift ruined the entire W212 generation by making the first one look instantly dated, make it look like M-B designers have no idea what they're doing and stand behind their own work without a massively frantic haphazard mismash "fix". The design is all over the place, angular into round, round into angular, really? What ever happened to design harmony? The F10 has been such a monumental success for the same reasons that BMW didn't have to mess with their own "perfection", the design doesn't have all the goofy gimmicks that need to be changed and reintroduced newly. The W212 has no balance now, hell V1 and V2 have no balance toward each other. M-B's design idioms change so rapidly and frantically IMO they've about lost all identity aside from the badge.
02-15-2014, 07:07 AM
#157
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2014 E350 Wagon
Actually, I still love the pre-facelift W212. It's a work of art when looked at at the right angles. One of my favorite modern M-B designs. But the cheeseball about-face surgery on the facelift ruined the entire W212 generation by making the first one look instantly dated, make it look like M-B designers have no idea what they're doing and stand behind their own work without a massively frantic haphazard mismash "fix". The design is all over the place, angular into round, round into angular, really? What ever happened to design harmony? The F10 has been such a monumental success for the same reasons that BMW didn't have to mess with their own "perfection", the design doesn't have all the goofy gimmicks that need to be changed and reintroduced newly. The W212 has no balance now, hell V1 and V2 have no balance toward each other. M-B's design idioms change so rapidly and frantically IMO they've about lost all identity aside from the badge.
IMO the 5 series sucks ***** ever since they stopped making the E39... But that's just my opinion...
02-15-2014, 07:12 AM
#158
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And you finally stated something factual: IMO. And that is exactly what all your posts are: your own opinion which you've aired to ad nauseum to the point where people are sick of it. To me it seems like the only person insecure in their choice is you. Why else would you still keep trolling this forum in a completely unnecessary douchebag fashion?
IMO the 5 series sucks ***** ever since they stopped making the E39... But that's just my opinion...
IMO the 5 series sucks ***** ever since they stopped making the E39... But that's just my opinion...
We all have our opinions, clearly mine is the more popular one (look at the massive gap in those sales figures
)..... and this is a thread asking about a FIVE SERIES! Duh. There are tons of threads in this forum that have nothing to do with the 5er where you can go and tout the greatness of your car. The only ones who are insecure are those "wah wah" over some testaments from someone who's owned both, speaking hard truth (whether fact or from personal perception). Whenever a group kick and scream and try to silence those with a dissenting voice, they clearly don't have many merits to tout their own choice. I can go all day stating the F10's various supremacies without insulting the dissenters, which is something others in this forum have always been highly poor at. There's a ton of misinformation in this thread, in fact many of the things people have been stated in favor of the W212 have been largely inaccurate (and disproven).
When you have no basis to counter one giving you too much of it; insult, insult, insult! Happens like clockwork here.
Last edited by K-A; 02-15-2014 at 07:38 AM.
02-15-2014, 11:19 AM
#159
Senior Member
K-A - you used to be a 'Mercedes' guy, and are a student of the brand's history. The current direction of the brand clearly disappoints you. So what does the brand need to do, in your opinion?
I think deep down you want to come back to Benz, perhaps when the W213 arrives in summer 2016.
If the W213 looks like the W205 and W222, would that design be acceptable?
I think deep down you want to come back to Benz, perhaps when the W213 arrives in summer 2016.
If the W213 looks like the W205 and W222, would that design be acceptable?
02-15-2014, 11:31 AM
#160
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According to Miriam-Webster:
the truth : the real facts about something : the things that are true
"Personal perception" is not "hard truth", except in your mind. To the rest of us, it is opinion. I believe this is why your comments are offensive to so many people here.
Regards,
Don
the truth : the real facts about something : the things that are true
"Personal perception" is not "hard truth", except in your mind. To the rest of us, it is opinion. I believe this is why your comments are offensive to so many people here.
Regards,
Don
02-15-2014, 11:48 AM
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K-A - you used to be a 'Mercedes' guy, and are a student of the brand's history. The current direction of the brand clearly disappoints you. So what does the brand need to do, in your opinion?
I think deep down you want to come back to Benz, perhaps when the W213 arrives in summer 2016.
If the W213 looks like the W205 and W222, would that design be acceptable?
I think deep down you want to come back to Benz, perhaps when the W213 arrives in summer 2016.
If the W213 looks like the W205 and W222, would that design be acceptable?
Another thing is I keep hearing about every M-B getting extensive "surgery" because executives aren't happy with their own designs, leading me to believe that the boardroom is designing these cars, not artists.
First the C Class with its putrid interior got a total interior makeover, then the W212 got its entire exterior *******ized and extensively changed (the most comprehensive in M-B history, per M-B themselves), now apparently the ML and SL are going to get "huge" changes as the SL has been dubbed a failure thus far and is getting criticism from even the M-B camp internally (C&D just did a write up stating how upset M-B is with the response to the car).
So, why support a brand who can't support themselves? You pay M-B money expecting long-term treatment, yet M-B in a few years will admit your car is a design disaster and try some about-face band-aid on it (thus usually making it look worse).
What I'd like to see is a return to confidence, stop copying other manufacturers, focus on timelessness again, and engineer bar none the quietest, smoothest and most luxurious cars in class. Maybe the S/C are a step in the right direction there, but the F10 shouldn't be putting up lower sound decibels inside (which it factually does per recorded tests) and shouldn't be much smoother even with an M suspension and larger wheels (especially considering it largely outhandles the W212 especially in said setup), whereas the W212 "Sport" has some of the sloppiest and most offensive characteristics on rough roads of any Luxury Car, or any car I've driven. Both of mine were dynamic disasters on anything but flat and smooth roads.
To me, as M-B keeps putting their Star on every cars grille more prevalently, as the Stars get cheesy faux "diamond patterns" in them, light up, get bigger, IMO it's a telling sign that M-B designers have lost focus in the holistic and detail-oriented aspect of design, in balance and timelessness. They've become possibly the most gimmicky and trendy brand out there these days, so trendy that they can't even ride one design out for a full production run. So they make designs that IMO often look sloppy, unfinished or discordant, but adorn them with a bunch of flash to distract those without a detailed eye into "ooh/ahh"'ing, until M-B does an about-face facelift on those very same models.
It's no coincidence that it was the very moment the W212 and F10 came out that the 5 Series for the first time ever, soared past the E Class in Global Sales.
I've always been an M-B fan at heart, which is why I so passionately have negative things to say about them when it's bad, and good when it's good.
IMO, if they brought back the W211 design idiom, evolved on that, kind of like what BMW did with the F10 being that it's as if they skipped the E60 altogether and created the E39 V2 (i.e pretending like the crazy angular-to-round to angular/round W212 generation design idiom never happened), it'd be an awesome start. I still think the W211 is the best design from M-B since it came out.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
As for my approach, minus a handful of members, even when I was on the "MB side" this has always been kind of a grouchy, insulting board who can't stand behind their choices with reasoning other than merit-less putdowns. So I don't really care how people think of what I say. I know that I've never stooped down to insulting other members here, instead I provide a sound argument with well laid out reasons, facts and experiences. It seems whenever people can't hold up to the argument at hand, they just whine about the person stating such opinions and/or facts, then resort to attacking the member stating them. Maybe that M-B design language and business approach working to attract a less sophisticated demographic as I predicted?
Last edited by K-A; 02-15-2014 at 11:56 AM.
02-15-2014, 08:58 PM
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2011 E550 4Matic, 2002 M3 Vert
I wouldn't take those sales figures at full value. The E has outsold the 5 since 2009 by a good clip in the US. Also, don't forget that the 5 has a starting base price well under the E with the 528. All these models sell in different parts of the globe for various reasons.
Last edited by SolidGranite; 02-15-2014 at 09:14 PM.
02-15-2014, 09:24 PM
#164
MBWorld Fanatic!
I wouldn't take those sales figures at full value. The E has outsold the 5 since 2009 by a good clip in the US. Also, don't forget that the 5 has a starting base price well under the E with the 528. All these models sell in different parts of the globe for various reasons.
Anyway who the hell cares... in 2008 and 2012 more people voted for the Dems than for the Repubs... it doesn't mean that they were right!
The guy is trolling and you guys keep feeding him. Just add him to your ignore list and this forum will be so much better.
02-15-2014, 09:30 PM
#165
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Daimler stock has lagged the industry for so long, it made sense that last year it finally caught some momentum in a major Bull Market year and during the year the new S came out, the CLA, and all the other models. However, it was still technically "catch up" to what its peers have been doing for years. M-B have the largest fleet of cars on the ground vs its competitors, so in essence it should put up more sales. At a point last year there was an article that came out that said if one broke down the market cap of Daimler and BMW AG, BMW was probably valued at around double of what M-B was valued at. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-1...tors-cars.html
SolidGranite: Those are actually U.S numbers you posted. The only reason the E "looks" like it sells more starting in 2009 is because it kind of "cheats" with having a Coupe and Vert (based on a C chassis as that) to fudge the numbers upward (and Wagon on top of that). Sedan VS Sedan it is said that the 5 Sedan sells more than the E Sedan, and even the 528i leases for more than the E350 on average. E350's get discounted more than any car really, the deals people/we/I've gotten are insane considering the MSRP.
Worldwide, when you factor in the E Coupe/Vert and larger model scale than the 5, and see how much more the 5 sells (a ridiculously huge amount), Sedan vs Sedan, the E is dramatically behind, and that says something considering the E is used as a Taxi all throughout Europe (i.e lots of extra sales).
It is very well knows that the reason M-B did a major facelift is because of the rapid and dramatic loss in worldwide market share to the 5 Series, the gap in those numbers, the pace in which they happened and how it had never happened before has been a big internal scare for M-B. It's like they even tried to make the facelift awkwardly look like a 5 Series.
Once again, these are the figures:
2012 Global Sales:
-5 Series: 337,929 ["solidified its position as segment leader"]
-E Class: 224,127 (including C chassis "E" Coupe and Vert and Wagon to make the numbers look higher than what they should be)
2013 Global Sales:
-5 Series: 366,992 ["The BMW 5 Series also strengthened its position as segment leader"]
-E Class: 242,562 (including C chassis "E" Coupe and Vert and Wagon to make the numbers look higher than what they should be)
http://www.daimler.com/dccom/0-5-715...0-0-0-0-0.html
https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/usa/p...item=node__804
http://www.autospies.com/news/BMW-Br...s-Crown-74210/
Last edited by K-A; 02-15-2014 at 09:40 PM.
02-15-2014, 10:44 PM
#166
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2014 E 550 , 12 911 TTS
Interesting that according to this website the E Class does outsell the 5 series in the US just as Solid Granite says
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...-december.html
China boosts the BMW numbers quite a bit vs Mercedes worldwide.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...-december.html
China boosts the BMW numbers quite a bit vs Mercedes worldwide.
Last edited by finman; 02-15-2014 at 10:46 PM.
02-15-2014, 10:47 PM
#167
Senior Member
Finally some numbers, thank you. I am surprised by the figures, to be honest. Seeing how MB has been kicking butt in the US, I wonder which market makes the difference. One can rank on the E for being a taxi, but BMW is the supreme prevalent rental car in Germany - fully half the Sixt cars I have rented there were BMWs (including a F11), and there was once a slogan "Sixt liebt BMW", so the fleet image goes both ways. Maybe it's all the 520/525 rentals in the German fleet
I think if the facelift was because of supposed "failure", it would be something more than new front and rear fascias, and added interior detail. The platform itself would be given an early exit - and it isn't. It's a move to align the model with upcoming design themes, as the platform still has several years to retirement. The design themes might not be the best thing ever, but I can't see it being for any other reason.
Regarding the spartan feeling in an earlier W212 - go sit in a W124, ad you'll see the inspiration. This was a car meant to woo traditionalists more than new customers. I don't know if there is a legacy to ruin - the angular theme didn't live long enough. W211 was soft and kind of feminine in a way, and upcoming models seem to be going there again.
Speaking of FWD minibuses and the like, I see there's a BMW B-class copycat in the works. Looks like someone with clout doesn't object.
M sport being at a premium makes it less common, but it makes those 528i lease specials floating all over La-La-Land look really cheap. Sport package being free goes back to W211/W220, not new. And yes, you can lease a 328i for the same as an E - and you can do the same with a 5er and C. All depends on the car. These are cars with huge MSRP possibilities.
I think BMW should be paying you, you devote enough time and words to be a PR producer Too much for me to discuss, you wear me out.
[QUOTE=K-A;5943135]Note: the "E" contains: Sedan, Wagon, Coupe, Convertible, AMG Sedan, AMG Wagon. The "5" contains: Sedan, GT, Wagon, M5. So there are MANY more E variations on sale, 2 of which are Coupe/Vert's that are actually C Classes, and consist of a large portion of sales. **The 5 Sedan sells a lot more than the E Sedan than even this huge gap below suggests, which is the FIRST time a 5 has ever done this to an E. It happened as soon as the F10 came out and is exactly why Mercedes were forced to do an uncharacteristic facelift as they lost this segment for the first time EVER, even considering they
I think if the facelift was because of supposed "failure", it would be something more than new front and rear fascias, and added interior detail. The platform itself would be given an early exit - and it isn't. It's a move to align the model with upcoming design themes, as the platform still has several years to retirement. The design themes might not be the best thing ever, but I can't see it being for any other reason.
Regarding the spartan feeling in an earlier W212 - go sit in a W124, ad you'll see the inspiration. This was a car meant to woo traditionalists more than new customers. I don't know if there is a legacy to ruin - the angular theme didn't live long enough. W211 was soft and kind of feminine in a way, and upcoming models seem to be going there again.
Speaking of FWD minibuses and the like, I see there's a BMW B-class copycat in the works. Looks like someone with clout doesn't object.
M sport being at a premium makes it less common, but it makes those 528i lease specials floating all over La-La-Land look really cheap. Sport package being free goes back to W211/W220, not new. And yes, you can lease a 328i for the same as an E - and you can do the same with a 5er and C. All depends on the car. These are cars with huge MSRP possibilities.
I think BMW should be paying you, you devote enough time and words to be a PR producer
Too much for me to discuss, you wear me out.[QUOTE=K-A;5943135]Note: the "E" contains: Sedan, Wagon, Coupe, Convertible, AMG Sedan, AMG Wagon. The "5" contains: Sedan, GT, Wagon, M5. So there are MANY more E variations on sale, 2 of which are Coupe/Vert's that are actually C Classes, and consist of a large portion of sales. **The 5 Sedan sells a lot more than the E Sedan than even this huge gap below suggests, which is the FIRST time a 5 has ever done this to an E. It happened as soon as the F10 came out and is exactly why Mercedes were forced to do an uncharacteristic facelift as they lost this segment for the first time EVER, even considering they
02-15-2014, 10:59 PM
#168
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
Finally some numbers, thank you. I am surprised by the figures, to be honest. Seeing how MB has been kicking butt in the US, I wonder which market makes the difference. One can rank on the E for being a taxi, but BMW is the supreme prevalent rental car in Germany - fully half the Sixt cars I have rented there were BMWs (including a F11), and there was once a slogan "Sixt liebt BMW", so the fleet image goes both ways. Maybe it's all the 520/525 rentals in the German fleet
I think if the facelift was because of supposed "failure", it would be something more than new front and rear fascias, and added interior detail. The platform itself would be given an early exit - and it isn't. It's a move to align the model with upcoming design themes, as the platform still has several years to retirement. The design themes might not be the best thing ever, but I can't see it being for any other reason.
Regarding the spartan feeling in an earlier W212 - go sit in a W124, ad you'll see the inspiration. This was a car meant to woo traditionalists more than new customers. I don't know if there is a legacy to ruin - the angular theme didn't live long enough. W211 was soft and kind of feminine in a way, and upcoming models seem to be going there again.
Speaking of FWD minibuses and the like, I see there's a BMW B-class copycat in the works. Looks like someone with clout doesn't object.
M sport being at a premium makes it less common, but it makes those 528i lease specials floating all over La-La-Land look really cheap. Sport package being free goes back to W211/W220, not new. And yes, you can lease a 328i for the same as an E - and you can do the same with a 5er and C. All depends on the car. These are cars with huge MSRP possibilities.
I think BMW should be paying you, you devote enough time and words to be a PR producer Too much for me to discuss, you wear me out.
I think if the facelift was because of supposed "failure", it would be something more than new front and rear fascias, and added interior detail. The platform itself would be given an early exit - and it isn't. It's a move to align the model with upcoming design themes, as the platform still has several years to retirement. The design themes might not be the best thing ever, but I can't see it being for any other reason.
Regarding the spartan feeling in an earlier W212 - go sit in a W124, ad you'll see the inspiration. This was a car meant to woo traditionalists more than new customers. I don't know if there is a legacy to ruin - the angular theme didn't live long enough. W211 was soft and kind of feminine in a way, and upcoming models seem to be going there again.
Speaking of FWD minibuses and the like, I see there's a BMW B-class copycat in the works. Looks like someone with clout doesn't object.
M sport being at a premium makes it less common, but it makes those 528i lease specials floating all over La-La-Land look really cheap. Sport package being free goes back to W211/W220, not new. And yes, you can lease a 328i for the same as an E - and you can do the same with a 5er and C. All depends on the car. These are cars with huge MSRP possibilities.
I think BMW should be paying you, you devote enough time and words to be a PR producer
Too much for me to discuss, you wear me out.Fintail: Yes, they can all be had for cheap. But I've never seen a car as discounted as the E350, and I don't think the best 528i deal I've seen is better than the best E350 deal I've seen, which says a lot since the E350 should cost almost as much as a 535i (535i leases for higher and gets discounted much less). Aside from the C/E Coupe inflating the U.S numbers, the discounts go a long way towards those figures as well.
As for worldwide, I know from inside sources and rumors around the web that it was the E's massive loss of market share that made them do SUCH an about-face makeover. It only makes sense. And yes, they did do a very extensive facelift, as extensive as any facelift in their history (they said it is *THE* most extensive facelift in their history, clearly an attempted mistake-correction). They couldn't invest in an all new platform this early, so they invested in everything else they can. Stamping new rear quarter panels is HUGE and never been done before, the entire front was switched out. The E now looks like a Chinese-copy awkward kit-car of itself. The architecture is still that boxy/upright/angular look, and the front and rear all weird melty, and the Star grille just has no business on such an upright otherwise design to me.
The interior did get huge makeovers as well. This was truly an "about face" makeover for M-B, and IMO they made something that looked good, really bad, and very obvious in their franticness to try and "correct" a mistake with IMO a new mistake.
Compare it to the F10 who's facelift was so minimal and BMW, opposite of M-B said they "didn't have to mess with a perfect design" and stood by their design, barely messing with anything. Look at that, look at the sales figures and market share trends, and you get the story.
02-15-2014, 11:54 PM
#169
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2014 E 550 , 12 911 TTS
Ok, I give .... We're back to "inside " sources and the such
The page I pasted has a separate line for C class but I'm sure you will have a comeback for that as well
I cannot compete with the man of 10 thousand posts...
Best of luck with your 5 series that is setup "just right"
As I have said, I did not have the same experience as you.
The page I pasted has a separate line for C class but I'm sure you will have a comeback for that as well
I cannot compete with the man of 10 thousand posts...
Best of luck with your 5 series that is setup "just right"
As I have said, I did not have the same experience as you.
02-16-2014, 04:54 AM
#170
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2012 E350
lol when someone debadge a 5 series I can't even tell if its a three or a five from behind. Why on earth would I buy a 5 if people think im driving a three? If bmws design look so good then just buy a three and debadge it. Not like its any different than the 5 in aesthetics. Bmw 5 series is so garbage because I sat in my friend's and the real leather was more crap then my mb tex. There is nothing perfect about the five.
But hey guess what guys? KA is probably going to say that I dont know my cars and shoot me useless facts how bmw is better mb because he simply can't accept the fact that I like mb more than bmw. He'll probably even call me ignorant because of this too lol.
Go on ranting on the E class but im laughing because most drivers out there think you are driving a three instead of a five.
But hey guess what guys? KA is probably going to say that I dont know my cars and shoot me useless facts how bmw is better mb because he simply can't accept the fact that I like mb more than bmw. He'll probably even call me ignorant because of this too lol.
Go on ranting on the E class but im laughing because most drivers out there think you are driving a three instead of a five.
02-16-2014, 07:16 AM
#171
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Porsche Macan S SportDesign / Ex M-B's: 11 & 10 & 06 E350's, 02 S500
lol when someone debadge a 5 series I can't even tell if its a three or a five from behind. Why on earth would I buy a 5 if people think im driving a three? If bmws design look so good then just buy a three and debadge it. Not like its any different than the 5 in aesthetics. Bmw 5 series is so garbage because I sat in my friend's and the real leather was more crap then my mb tex. There is nothing perfect about the five.
But hey guess what guys? KA is probably going to say that I dont know my cars and shoot me useless facts how bmw is better mb because he simply can't accept the fact that I like mb more than bmw. He'll probably even call me ignorant because of this too lol.
Go on ranting on the E class but im laughing because most drivers out there think you are driving a three instead of a five.
But hey guess what guys? KA is probably going to say that I dont know my cars and shoot me useless facts how bmw is better mb because he simply can't accept the fact that I like mb more than bmw. He'll probably even call me ignorant because of this too lol.
Go on ranting on the E class but im laughing because most drivers out there think you are driving a three instead of a five.
The new S and new C look IDENTICAL, way more so than the 3 and 5. M-B outdid Audi's copy/paste job with the new S/C. So by your own measures, the new S must be worthless because it looks like an entry level M-B.... or let me guess, since it's a Mercedes, the same rules don't apply.
One of these is the S, and one is the C (on each angle). I honestly can't tell them apart often. The W222 will have absolutely no presence on the roads as the C Class will outsell it massively, therefore "owning" this design idiom, rendering the S to look like a "blown up C" after due time. I don't know what M-B was thinking, the S needs to maintain a premium aesthetic aura over its especially entry level siblings.
Last edited by K-A; 02-16-2014 at 07:42 AM.
02-16-2014, 10:11 AM
#172
Senior Member
Wow. In those pics they do look like exact twins. There is a huge size diff in the 2 so won't get confused. If mb makes the E look the same then yes the C and E will get confused. The S Is much larger and longer than both like a 750LI. Thank god they both look good. I can't tell a debadged BMW any more either.
02-16-2014, 11:20 AM
#173
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2010 E350 4Matic
Interesting that according to this website the E Class does outsell the 5 series in the US just as Solid Granite says
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...-december.html
China boosts the BMW numbers quite a bit vs Mercedes worldwide.
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2014/01...-december.html
China boosts the BMW numbers quite a bit vs Mercedes worldwide.
Last edited by MBNUT1; 02-16-2014 at 11:24 AM.
02-16-2014, 11:30 AM
#174
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02-16-2014, 11:38 AM
#175
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2010 E350 4Matic
Uh, the only ones getting personal here and hurling insults, calling others "ignorant" and refusing to accept truths are you and those like you. It's pretty obvious why M-B had to do such an about-face on the E Class, you guys can't even give me one aspect that *actually* is superior to the 5 Series, so you kick scream and insult like big babies. I'll refute many things, but I've never stooped to the level of many M-B demographic have, i.e refusing to believe another car is better to the point where I stop debating the cars, and start debating the debater (commonplace around here). If you can't stand up to the task of representing your car, have some dignity and step back from the vitriol and name calling, this thread is about how the 5 compares to the E.
The new S and new C look IDENTICAL, way more so than the 3 and 5. M-B outdid Audi's copy/paste job with the new S/C. So by your own measures, the new S must be worthless because it looks like an entry level M-B.... or let me guess, since it's a Mercedes, the same rules don't apply.
One of these is the S, and one is the C (on each angle). I honestly can't tell them apart often. The W222 will have absolutely no presence on the roads as the C Class will outsell it massively, therefore "owning" this design idiom, rendering the S to look like a "blown up C" after due time. I don't know what M-B was thinking, the S needs to maintain a premium aesthetic aura over its especially entry level siblings.
The new S and new C look IDENTICAL, way more so than the 3 and 5. M-B outdid Audi's copy/paste job with the new S/C. So by your own measures, the new S must be worthless because it looks like an entry level M-B.... or let me guess, since it's a Mercedes, the same rules don't apply.
One of these is the S, and one is the C (on each angle). I honestly can't tell them apart often. The W222 will have absolutely no presence on the roads as the C Class will outsell it massively, therefore "owning" this design idiom, rendering the S to look like a "blown up C" after due time. I don't know what M-B was thinking, the S needs to maintain a premium aesthetic aura over its especially entry level siblings.
Two beautiful cars. "Me thinks thou protesteth too much"
